[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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cfusionpm
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Again, I'll put my view out there. 0 Chance Lurrus is not banned, and soon. 0.
Under the new structure, they appear to give at least 7 days heads up before making another announcement. Both the heads up and announcements tend to happen on Mondays. Ikoria is officially launching in paper next Friday. Will they announce something tomorrow with a B&R update following the weekend of release? Seems sketchy for sure, even with no paper events. My bet is they wait at least a week more. Remember that they let Hogaak destroy 3 GPs before acting, and Hogaak was universally hated across the board, even by people who played it.

I think the bigger questions they are grappling with are: do they just ban Lurrus? Or do they ban others? Do they errata Companion? If they errata, do they still need to ban Lurrus?

And these questions are going to be asked independently across all formats. If Oko is any indication (similar prevalence across different decks), Lurrus will be banned outright in Vintage and probably Legacy while being left alone in Modern and Pioneer, because "reasons" before later being banned in Modern anyway.

Who knows, maybe they nuke it from orbit? Maybe they unban Twin? Maybe rainbows will fly out of my-- what were we talking about again?
ThatStoryTeller wrote:
1 year ago
As an outsider I want to see where this goes, but if you are willing, answer me this, what do you as a modern player want out of modern?
I want to be able to play a competitively viable deck which can allow me to leverage the ability to read players, make predictions, make bluffs, and play head games to influence players into making sub-optimal choices. I want unknown information to matter, and be able to use that unknown information to my advantage. I don't want to destroy anybody's deck or disallow them from playing whatever obnoxious garbage currently exists in Modern, but I want to play something that makes them think twice before vomiting their hand without consequence. :thinking:

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

I think you are better off asking Wizards to no longer design cards with synergies in mind, both intended like Keruga drawing cards just for controlling 3 mana or higher permanents and unintended like Saheeli cat combo they never foresaw before the cat was revealed for Aether Revolt.
Blue focused control works best when decks must adhere to card advantage theory when forced to pay attention to information of battlefield and hand, not tempo oriented gameplay that throws multiple triggers into the stack or constantly unleashing threats from an easily replenished graveyard .

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
I want to be able to play a competitively viable deck which can allow me to leverage the ability to read players, make predictions, make bluffs, and play head games to influence players into making sub-optimal choices. I want unknown information to matter, and be able to use that unknown information to my advantage. I don't want to destroy anybody's deck or disallow them from playing whatever obnoxious garbage currently exists in Modern, but I want to play something that makes them think twice before vomiting their hand without consequence.
It sounds to me like you want to play Jund (hopefully soon without Lurrus).

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Post by Lord Seth » 1 year ago

Out of curiosity, has anyone playtested Lurrus as a 4-of maindeck card you have to naturally draw to see if it's better/worse/the same as being a Companion card?

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
In my opinion, that's the scariest part. I was STRONGLY considering buying all of the companions except Lurrus just yesterday. But I don't know what will happen. I really want to try a Planebound Accomplice, Lukka, Coppercoat Outcast deck, but I don't know where that deck will be when I can actually play it. Who knows what will happen? Companions stay in, Companions stay but Lurrus banned, Companions all banned, Companions errataed, or anything other than those as well.

I'm not willing to buy Lurrus for $20 in paper in fear of a banning. Am I willing to buy the other companions in case they get banned? They're $5 each and less (other than Gyruda), so maybe so? It is the uncertainty of what will happen that makes it the toughest. If Companions are here to stay for the time being, then I am all for buying the ones I need to be competitive and the ones I need to have fun.
Magicaids posted a great 4-1 video, today I think, with that Planebound Accomplice and Lukka, Coppercoat Outcast combo at the core of his deck. It looked good.

I am going to get one of each companion in paper. I don't think they will ban them all, lurrus sure but not the rest. There will be cool things to do with them and as long as they aren't completely out of control I expect I'll be able to use them. I guess I need 4 gyruda though.
ThatStoryTeller wrote:
1 year ago
Alright guys, heres whats happening. There is a project in the works that I mentioned a few pages back called Pre-War modern. I think watching the development of this community can help us create an actual case for a better modern. They are going set by set to determine cards to ban, but I have not heard anything from the discord about an identity for that format, not having one seems to be the pitfall to avoid.

As an outsider I want to see where this goes, but if you are willing, answer me this, what do you as a modern player want out of modern?
I can't speak for everyone, I'm more fringe I think in my liberal unban ideas. But I primarily want to play powerful combo decks. Combo doesn't always exist in standatd, is to often shut down by force of will in legacy, and pioneer isnt quite powerul enough for me. That's what I enjoy doing and modern has traditionally been a home for powerful combo. Twin, kci, crabvine with bridge from below, Maybe birthing pod, that is what I want to do and see if the opponent can stop me.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
In my opinion, that's the scariest part. I was STRONGLY considering buying all of the companions except Lurrus just yesterday. But I don't know what will happen. I really want to try a Planebound Accomplice, Lukka, Coppercoat Outcast deck, but I don't know where that deck will be when I can actually play it. Who knows what will happen? Companions stay in, Companions stay but Lurrus banned, Companions all banned, Companions errataed, or anything other than those as well.

I'm not willing to buy Lurrus for $20 in paper in fear of a banning. Am I willing to buy the other companions in case they get banned? They're $5 each and less (other than Gyruda), so maybe so? It is the uncertainty of what will happen that makes it the toughest. If Companions are here to stay for the time being, then I am all for buying the ones I need to be competitive and the ones I need to have fun.
Magicaids posted a great 4-1 video, today I think, with that Planebound Accomplice and Lukka, Coppercoat Outcast combo at the core of his deck. It looked good.
That was the main video that got me hyped up. I stumbled upon it while watching hours of youtube videos (suggested and others) during this quarantine.

I had seen it when a streamer that I was watching played against it, but it didn't do much. I am a bit wary because the MagicAids video and the followers seem very hype happy. I would like the deck to at least be somewhat solid or else if it's a worse Glass Cannon than even Neobrand, then I'd rather just play Neobrand. I want to at least have a chance at 3-1ing my FNM or top 16ing a Comp REL weekend tournament. The biggest part is that I don't know where this deck will be at when paper resumes again. What will be banned? Will anything be unbanned? Well, obviously no on that one, lol.
metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
I can't speak for everyone, I'm more fringe I think in my liberal unban ideas. But I primarily want to play powerful combo decks. Combo doesn't always exist in standatd, is to often shut down by force of will in legacy, and pioneer isnt quite powerul enough for me. That's what I enjoy doing and modern has traditionally been a home for powerful combo. Twin, kci, crabvine with bridge from below, Maybe birthing pod, that is what I want to do and see if the opponent can stop me.
Everyone wants something somewhat different from Modern, but I feel like I'm in a similar boat. I would suggest playing Amulet if you haven't yet. I've found that many Eggs or KCI players also seem to enjoy Amulet and the power level is pretty close to there, even despite Companions.

Modern started in late 2011. I was still playing Standard UW Delver (not because it is a favorite play style or anything; I just couldn't see myself not playing Ponder or a deck that was clearly Tier 0 and I thrived to get even better with it) at the time, but I watched the Modern tournaments that went on next to us (usually about 50 for Standard and 20 for Modern). I was interested. I built up a deck that I copied online - a RG Cloudpost deck with Through the Breach, Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn, and Primeval Titan. Before I could even play it at a tournament, Cloudpost was banned. That was my first introduction to how this format was gonna be run - with the strictest hand of any previous format. Then I played it a bit, trying Merfolk, Living End, and settling on RUG Scapeshift. I noticed the power level of Storm. Twin and Jund were very powerful, but they could be beaten and I always hedged against Twin if I could. I looked at a ban list with Sword of the Meek, Ancestral Vision, and more. I wondered why those were not legal, but Rite of Flame, yes, the card that killed me on turn 2 on the play was legal. So I stocked up on the cards that I thought would or more importantly, SHOULD be unbanned. It took so long for some of these to happen that I honestly didn't care at many points and still stocked up on more copies.

Why do I bring this up? I honestly have always felt that there should have been no preconceived banlist. Nobody could possibly figure out what would be too good in this format without playing it. Especially with new sets coming out all the time, albeit much less often as nowadays. I have never felt like it was "too late" to "start over" and do a no ban list Modern. I do feel that probably Hogaak, Eye of Ugin, and Mental Misstep should start out banned, but everything else feels at least fun to me. Sure, you could say Jund gets Deathrite Shaman, Taxes gets Chrome Mox into Thalia on turn 1, Chalices are played more, Combo kills freaking consistently, but that's just it. We don't know what would be better, so let it play out. Sword of the Meek should never have been banned. I played it in Extended. It was the best deck at the time, but took so much play skill to master and was barely better than the rest. There were ways to disrupt it. 2019 and beyond has brought some %$#% up things to Modern. I would not take it all back if I could because I felt that there were also positives. I do feel like it's getting to the point of no return on going back to a no ban list Modern, while most people think we've passed that crossroad years ago.

I think a possible positive that came out of Companions is that players now realize how little the restrictions actually affect a deck, and even less so of course with Arcum's Astrolabe available. They learned to evaluate how 1 free card that gives insane value if it lives makes Jund drop Liliana of the Veil and Bloodbraid Elf (a card once on the ban list itself, lol). I've seen Jim Davis run Yorion, Sky Nomad in Goblins. Yorion in 80 card decks. Remember, 60 used to be sacred? Maybe this is an experiment to show people how much they are willing to alter their decks to fit in busted %$#%?
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

I think a possible positive that came out of Companions is that players now realize how little the restrictions actually affect a deck, and even less so of course with Arcum's Astrolabe available. They learned to evaluate how 1 free card that gives insane value if it lives makes Jund drop Liliana of the Veil and Bloodbraid Elf (a card once on the ban list itself, lol). I've seen Jim Davis run Yorion, Sky Nomad in Goblins. Yorion in 80 card decks. Remember, 60 used to be sacred? Maybe this is an experiment to show people how much they are willing to alter their decks to fit in busted %$#%?
Yorion is the real deal. It was actually fun experimenting how much land an 80 card deck should contain. After Lurrus eats a ban, I hope people would start to calm down about this companion issue.

And 60 card isn't really sacred for some people even before companions got printed.. there is this person who won with a 146 card modern deck.
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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

blkdemonight wrote:
1 year ago
I like commander but I don't care for concepts like" expressing my identity"
I always found that so weird. "Expressing my identity through a game of cards", it sounds pretty sad really.
I like using sleeves with some artwork I think looks cool and I'll pick a card with the artwork I like, but just because I like it, not because "I'm expressing my identity" lol.
I always find it weird the surveys they put out have qustions like that.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
blkdemonight wrote:
1 year ago
I like commander but I don't care for concepts like" expressing my identity"
I always found that so weird. "Expressing my identity through a game of cards", it sounds pretty sad really.
I like using sleeves with some artwork I think looks cool and I'll pick a card with the artwork I like, but just because I like it, not because "I'm expressing my identity" lol.
I always find it weird the surveys they put out have qustions like that.
I would say using sleeves you like is part of that. It captures something incredibly broad, in an age where people may no longer have traditional identity sign posts.

People have a need for this kind of thing, it's impossible to look at the world right now and say otherwise.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
blkdemonight wrote:
1 year ago
I like commander but I don't care for concepts like" expressing my identity"
I always found that so weird. "Expressing my identity through a game of cards", it sounds pretty sad really.
I like using sleeves with some artwork I think looks cool and I'll pick a card with the artwork I like, but just because I like it, not because "I'm expressing my identity" lol.
I always find it weird the surveys they put out have qustions like that.
That's ok. I like playing certain styles of decks. I like playing certain kinds of cards. I would consider that an "identity" as much as anything else. I would never be caught dead playing Tron, just like others would never in their lives want to cast Cryptic Command. Sleeves and art are an expression as well. I love alternate arts, promos, foils, full arts, and special versions of cards, which also slots into what could be considered an "identity." It's just the things that you like or are special to you for whatever reason.

But I totally understand that for many people (especially those who roam from deck to deck staying at the top of the competitive field, regardless of archetype or cards) it seems silly or unimportant. And that's ok too.

The survey questions usually seek to quantify this "illogical" desire for certain things over others, regardless of relative strength or presence. It's an emotional investment in the things we do. "I'm a Tron player" "I'm an Infect player" "I'm the Snap/Bolt player" "I'm the guy with mismatched basics" "I'm the one with the fully foiled Jund list" etc. These are all "identities" to many players. Especially ones heavily invested in their deck/format.

Edit: I'll add that even in Commander, I stray sometimes. Although pretty much every deck I have runs Islands, my first deck didn't (Teysa) and one of my current ones does not (Zacama). Though they are also the decks I play the least. Teysa has since been parted out, and Zacama is frequently what I let others play. It's really hard for me to want to play something that doesn't have Islands.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Maro up and at it again. If you are against the 'every set' flipping of the formats on their heads in our 'nonrotational' formats, let him know.



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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Under the new structure, they appear to give at least 7 days heads up before making another announcement. Both the heads up and announcements tend to happen on Mondays. Ikoria is officially launching in paper next Friday. Will they announce something tomorrow with a B&R update following the weekend of release? Seems sketchy for sure, even with no paper events. My bet is they wait at least a week more. Remember that they let Hogaak destroy 3 GPs before acting, and Hogaak was universally hated across the board, even by people who played it.

I think the bigger questions they are grappling with are: do they just ban Lurrus? Or do they ban others? Do they errata Companion? If they errata, do they still need to ban Lurrus?
Well, Monday morning's B&R announcement dump time has come and gone. So this means at least 2 more weeks of Companions unchanged.

From the looks of Maro's comments he's still fishing for the lay of the land before they commit to anything.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

That poll asking about homes for non standard cards is an interesting thought exercise but gets incredibly dangerous for the value of older cards. Not to mention what it means for them printing directly into various formats. And, what it would mean for even maintaining an easy list of what sets are in which formats.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I dont believe he's asking about direct print to Modern/Legacy/Vintage.

The question is, for EVERY Standard set, which formats should be impacted. My hang up, is the word EVERY. I feel it is a bad plan, to put in stone that EVERY set must impact Modern, or Legacy, or Pioneer.

That said, nearly every single set since original Theros DID have an impact on Modern. Its only the last few years they have ruined everything.

There is a distinction or understanding or threshold, which is not understood by both sides.

Theros, Original Theros, gave us at a glance.

Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Swan Song
Anger of the Gods
Stormbreath Dragon
Destructive Revelry

That is healthy impact.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

I'm seeing more talk on another Streamer's chat preferring Lurrus. He is saying that Lurrus is fine and that Mishra's Bauble should be banned. Several others agreed. It's about 50/50 in this chat, which blows my mind.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I'm seeing more talk on another Streamer's chat preferring Lurrus. He is saying that Lurrus is fine and that Mishra's Bauble should be banned. Several others agreed. It's about 50/50 in this chat, which blows my mind.
In trying to look at the other side of things, I could see a world where that MIGHT make sense. Because I mean, what are Lurrus lists without 4 Baubles? They're whatever regular decks they were, but without 3+ drops and with a single redundancy card. Bauble has no color requirement and is free. Making it repeatable is super good. Removing Bauble removes the draw engine (and information engine) that most Lurrus decks rely on for their consistency and resilience. Are there ANY Lurrus decks NOT running 4 Bauble? Is I don't agree with this assessment whatsoever, but I could see how someone could hold it.

And honestly, "banned as Companion" seems enticing. I would happily play 2-4 of these in a deck with no restrictions.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

A huge problem is the data generated by this Maro poll is that it is going to be able to be misused.

I want cards to impact Modern but I want *answer* cards. I don't want poxy Uro, or Oko. I want non creature, non planeswalker cards. The reason for this is there are too many threat cards in the format already that take over the game.
I want cards for Legacy but only ones that can't go in xerox shells. So how do I fill in this?
A scientist isn't about finding answers, they are about asking the right questions. This is not the right question.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I'm seeing more talk on another Streamer's chat preferring Lurrus. He is saying that Lurrus is fine and that Mishra's Bauble should be banned. Several others agreed. It's about 50/50 in this chat, which blows my mind.
This is 'ban Bridge, not Hogaak' btw...

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Cats gonna get gone.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Cats gonna get gone.

1) I missed the time window by about 10 hours
2) They conveniently did not mention Modern.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I did predict they would let Modern continue to suffer, because Vintage and Legacy are FAR worse off.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
I did predict they would let Modern continue to suffer, because Vintage and Legacy are FAR worse off.
But that's the thing... This is Oko all over again. Just rip the band aid off and deal with Lurrus across all formats. We already know as of that tweet that it will be languishing in our format for a new, undisclosed amount of time. We literally just went through this not even six months ago.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
I did predict they would let Modern continue to suffer, because Vintage and Legacy are FAR worse off.
Yep, those formats are a no brainer.

For Modern, they know the format is resilient enough to let some damage go through. They probably also want to see if they can possibly ban a different card instead, whereas Vintage is not Vintage without Black Lotus. For Legacy, I was kind of surprised they didn't ban Lion's Eye Diamond instead tbh.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

I could see Wizards not hitting companions for now, might explain why Modern isn't getting an update. If anything we might see unbans for those 2 eternal formats.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

All I can say, is voice that opinion. Maro is reading everything, I'm sure of it.

Lurrus will probably go in Modern, they absolutely love to let us suffer, but Vintage/Legacy are a bonfire right now, they cannot persist as they are now.
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