[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Maybe even though the vocal majority seems to not enjoy Companions, it is actually the majority of players who do? If it makes more money, that's what the company is going to take it as, even if it has more to do with pulling Godzilla lottery tickets than a busted set.
that is a good point. Most people posting on this thread have something to complain about, but even with the non-stop rambling that can bring down the heavens every page... lol.... we are still less than 20 people here.. or no maybe even less than 10 same people posting on this thread? Who knows how many players are actually enjoying companions, enjoy playing the game so they are not complaining here.

hoping corona would be gone soon.. so could play paper mtg again. Well, time to go back gardening to pass time. :>
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

A bunch of different decks playing Oko at obscene meta share levels across all the formats got it banned. Companions are literally doing the same thing (and possibly the same as Treasure Cruise). I don't understand how anyone thinks this is OK.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Nobody with sense, literally not 1 person with logical critical thinking ability, should think Lurrus will remain unbanned for long.

I read that if you go to log a complaint with Wizards for any reason, one of the automated options available for selection is 'Companions'.

Zero chance these are legal for more than a few weeks, and I expect an update on Monday.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Nobody with sense, literally not 1 person with logical critical thinking ability, should think Lurrus will remain unbanned for long.

I read that if you go to log a complaint with Wizards for any reason, one of the automated options available for selection is 'Companions'.

Zero chance these are legal for more than a few weeks, and I expect an update on Monday.
I am not sure what specifics that people are arguing for, but I think Lurrus of the Dream-Den should only be banned as a Companion (at least for Modern). I think it is an incredibly powerful card that is okay to be in Modern as a 4 of in someone's deck (or 1-3; whatever).

Yorion, Sky Nomad will probably need to be looked at as a Companion as well.

EDIT> I was back watching the streamer and he and several people commenting believe that Lurrus is fine and that people like to complain. He even said that Twin was better than Lurrus. Then the conversation got to Ice-Fang Coatl and Baleful Strix and he said that Strix is better. :o I mean, this is a player that I respect a lot; an amazing player who has played more Magic than I have the last 2 years. I don't know what to think of it.
Last edited by FoodChainGoblins 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I am not sure what specifics that people are arguing for, but I think Lurrus of the Dream-Den should only be banned as a Companion (at least for Modern). I think it is an incredibly powerful card that is okay to be in Modern as a 4 of in someone's deck (or 1-3; whatever).
I think I disagree. Because the one thing that acts as a check on his ability is his companion text. If you can suddenly play this in a deck with higher mana permanents (for example, alongside Delve creatures or even just Liliana of the Veil or Seasoned Pyromancer) it gets really powerful.

I don't see a world where the card can stay. It definitely can't stay as a companion due to design space issues even if the power level ones are overlooked. I'm not convinced it can stay as a regular creature either. It's an absurd amount of value that gets recurred every turn.

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I am not sure what specifics that people are arguing for, but I think Lurrus of the Dream-Den should only be banned as a Companion (at least for Modern). I think it is an incredibly powerful card that is okay to be in Modern as a 4 of in someone's deck (or 1-3; whatever).
I think I disagree. Because the one thing that acts as a check on his ability is his companion text. If you can suddenly play this in a deck with higher mana permanents (for example, alongside Delve creatures or even just Liliana of the Veil or Seasoned Pyromancer) it gets really powerful.

I don't see a world where the card can stay. It definitely can't stay as a companion due to design space issues even if the power level ones are overlooked. I'm not convinced it can stay as a regular creature either. It's an absurd amount of value that gets recurred every turn.
don't think it would be too powerful tbh. It would just be a Renegade Rallier with some advantages and some drawbacks. It woul be better, I think, but Rallier is much more mana efficient on the first card it gets, so you can t3 slam it ang get a Tarmogoyf no problem, which is a big deal in modern. And Rallier sees almost 0 play.

Of course Lurrus snowballs out of control if it sticks, but it's slower and can't get lands. Also 2 toughness on a 3cmc creature makes it very very easy to deal with.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I really think I could get behind a non-companion Lurrus.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Nobody with sense, literally not 1 person with logical critical thinking ability, should think Lurrus will remain unbanned for long.

I read that if you go to log a complaint with Wizards for any reason, one of the automated options available for selection is 'Companions'.

Zero chance these are legal for more than a few weeks, and I expect an update on Monday.
Yorion, Sky Nomad will probably need to be looked at as a Companion as well.
his ability to reset astrolabes has been quite useful. Thankfully, Sky Nomad is still in my cart. Have not paid scg yet. If he get banned, no money wasted. The only thing that would go to waste are the time + effort me and some friends did in practicing an 80 card deck..
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
EDIT> I was back watching the streamer and he and several people commenting believe that Lurrus is fine and that people like to complain. He even said that Twin was better than Lurrus. Then the conversation got to Ice-Fang Coatl and Baleful Strix and he said that Strix is better. I mean, this is a player that I respect a lot; an amazing player who has played more Magic than I have the last 2 years. I don't know what to think of it.
Jeff Hoogland has been %$#% on and blocking people that think Companions (and specifically Lurrus) are warping the metagame, especially in older formats and has been making some pretty dishonest arguments in favor of them.

Fun fact, he stopped streaming standard because "Companions are making it impossible to brew", while loving Lurrus mirrors and demeaning Legacy's/Vintage's problems.

It might not have been him, at least he was one of the more prominent streamers to say so.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

I'm usually on the same page as a lot of Hoogland's takes, but recently he has been way off the deep end.

Edit: and just likes that, blocked by him on Twitter. I've been using my free Twitch Prime subscription for him nearly 2 years. Guess I'll give it to someone else now.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Jeff Hoogland has been %$#% on and blocking people that think Companions (and specifically Lurrus) are warping the metagame, especially in older formats and has been making some pretty dishonest arguments in favor of them.

Fun fact, he stopped streaming standard because "Companions are making it impossible to brew", while loving Lurrus mirrors and demeaning Legacy's/Vintage's problems.

It might not have been him, at least he was one of the more prominent streamers to say so.
Wouldnt surprise me, he's turned out to be fairly intellectually dishonest when it comes to things he has a clear bias against.

I played Arena all night last night, I actually think Yorion will end up not banned in Modern, because you actually need a board for it to be anything, and (perhaps, I was only on arena) that is not always the easiest thing to set up.

Lurrus however is a joke. I was out valuing people with Lurrus constantly and all you need to do there is...have a GY lol. I didnt even bother attacking one game, just kept the value train going until my opponent conceded to what was essentially loops of blockers and value.

I will say that Standard is mostly grotesque. The value train's you can get going are completely overwhelming to play against if you are doing something more 'traditionally' Magic.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
I'm usually on the same page as a lot of Hoogland's takes, but recently he has been way off the deep end.

Edit: and just likes that, blocked by him on Twitter. I've been using my free Twitch Prime subscription for him nearly 2 years. Guess I'll give it to someone else now.
Welcome to the blocked club! Guys quite the coward.
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
But for most people, the casuals, their Lurrus is a free dude who they pay for by having a bad deck, not a deck that drops a bunch of baubles and goes to value town and outgrinds the opponents with a bunch of baubles, delvers and arcanists etc, nor one that pops out a Lotus or LED etc. it is an 8th card in a 100 card deck, where another card is also always available, and that is at the high end of casual play. In some-to-many cases it will be a 70 card deck "of cards I had" that happen to fit against a mates' 60 cards deck of cards they "just had lying around".
You cannot account for both worlds. I have had this argument across any number of games for decades.

You cannot design/develop for casuals, disregard your 'casual competitive' or 'pro(motional)' players, and see success. I have watched SO MANY GAMES die to this kind of short sighted mistakes.

You must, 100%, account for the behavior of the 1% which will not only break your game in interesting and unplanned for ways, but will DRAW ATTENTION TO IT.

That casual 70 card 'this is what I owe' player? They can never be the target audience, if one expects their game to be successful over time.

I'm not saying your wrong here btw, I am saying that since this is likely how they are rolling right now, it is the single biggest mistake they could make.
I am suggesting they are short sighted in doing what they are doing- borrowing from tomorrow to produce growth today, filling the monkey house with bananas, giving people what they like, not what is good for them or, more pertinently, what will ensure the game stays around. I certainly don't want them to be doing this.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
I question the logic of 'seeding pioneer' with Legacy level staples. Not saying your wrong, but if they are, they are idiots.

Maro consistently states that casuals are the majority of the player base. Casuals crack packs, even if older established players play more Draft.

Other than when I was chasing the dream of a deck that was actually as fun as one I had lost, I did not buy Standard cards, at all. I had what I needed, and other than a few singles per set at most, there was just no need.

Now? If you wanted to keep up you have to reinvent your deck, fairly consistently.

--

As to players who would go back to Eldrazi, or Oko, or Urza, or Hogaak...those are a certain demographic, that is a meaningful number of the REMAINING grinders in Modern. If that number is greater than Modern at it's peak? Well who knows.
Nothing wrong with Legacy level staples as long as they are answers! e.g.
Cursed Totem, Stp etc. yes please. Uro, no thanks! Got enough bombs already. When we say staples we mean threats, nowadays. Pioneer and Modern need better answers.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

It wont happen though, and looking at Legacy/Vintage, I'm not convinced any answers would appropriately slow down the %$#% show.
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
But for most people, the casuals, their Lurrus is a free dude who they pay for by having a bad deck, not a deck that drops a bunch of baubles and goes to value town and outgrinds the opponents with a bunch of baubles, delvers and arcanists etc, nor one that pops out a Lotus or LED etc. it is an 8th card in a 100 card deck, where another card is also always available, and that is at the high end of casual play. In some-to-many cases it will be a 70 card deck "of cards I had" that happen to fit against a mates' 60 cards deck of cards they "just had lying around".
You cannot account for both worlds. I have had this argument across any number of games for decades.

You cannot design/develop for casuals, disregard your 'casual competitive' or 'pro(motional)' players, and see success. I have watched SO MANY GAMES die to this kind of short sighted mistakes.

You must, 100%, account for the behavior of the 1% which will not only break your game in interesting and unplanned for ways, but will DRAW ATTENTION TO IT.

That casual 70 card 'this is what I owe' player? They can never be the target audience, if one expects their game to be successful over time.

I'm not saying your wrong here btw, I am saying that since this is likely how they are rolling right now, it is the single biggest mistake they could make.
Boom, that is exactly how I feel. You have to plan for the worst case minority incident, but they are not. They are playing to the majority average which lets the worst case scenarios not just appear, but appear semi frequently. Long term damage will compound, worse than it has already, if this ideology is not changed immediately.

The flip side to reducing power level is that future sets will appear underpowered and boring with few new cards for eternal formats, therefore reducing sales in the short-mid term. It's a big drawback, but a necessary one imo.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Even the Thero's block gave us Eidolon of the Great Revel however. Eternal formats dont NEED to be reinvented every set, not even close.

@drmarkb I should have worded that better, I did not mean that you believed those things, only that Wizards clearly does.
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Maro said on twitter he is responsable for putting Companions in Ikoria. Now it is time for him to take accountability and leave Wotc already. He is over the top. The passed 2 years all he has done is break magic and make formats unplayable over and over again with every new set.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Edit: and just likes that, blocked by him on Twitter. I've been using my free Twitch Prime subscription for him nearly 2 years. Guess I'll give it to someone else now.
I was watching his videos for a long time, but when he blocked me just for disagreeing I just gave up on him. For some reason he unblocked me at some point and stumbled on his Tweeter through Seth. He's even worse now...
iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
Maro said on twitter he is responsable for putting Companions in Ikoria. Now it is time for him to take accountability and leave Wotc already. He is over the top. The passed 2 years all he has done is break magic and make formats unplayable over and over again with every new set.
He's not on the hook for whatever power level Play Design/ Development assigned them. Companions can be fun, Lurrus isn't. Old formats can handle an essentially 2 for 1. Lurrus is a problem. We've seen that with other mechanics as well, where the idea is fine (or even good) and they overshoot the power level.

Plus, if he's on the hook for a bad mechanic, shouldn't he be on the hook for all the great mechanics too?

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

He put them into the set DESIGN.

You had a team of Developers, AND whatever joke they call Play Testing, to either prevent their printing, or come to something approaching reasonable.

I wont blame Maro for it, he has to try and push the boundary. I absolutely think however that if Maro, the face of Magic honestly, puts something in, its gonna be hard for anyone to call him out on it internally, and stop that from going forward.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
EDIT> I was back watching the streamer and he and several people commenting believe that Lurrus is fine and that people like to complain. He even said that Twin was better than Lurrus. Then the conversation got to Ice-Fang Coatl and Baleful Strix and he said that Strix is better. I mean, this is a player that I respect a lot; an amazing player who has played more Magic than I have the last 2 years. I don't know what to think of it.
Jeff Hoogland has been %$#% on and blocking people that think Companions (and specifically Lurrus) are warping the metagame, especially in older formats and has been making some pretty dishonest arguments in favor of them.

Fun fact, he stopped streaming standard because "Companions are making it impossible to brew", while loving Lurrus mirrors and demeaning Legacy's/Vintage's problems.

It might not have been him, at least he was one of the more prominent streamers to say so.
It actually wasn't Hoogland. I did not want to say the name, out of respect for the player, but I don't think it's disrespectful to say it anymore. It's just someone's opinion.

It was Edgar Magalhaes, whom I'm known OF and respected ever since he jammed Amulet.

I am starting to have doubts about my own evaluation on cards. Now, the issue of consistency (with the banned Preordain and GSZ as examples) was not really addressed by anyone. I mean, most people are there just to watch him stream, learn, and have fun. But people there like to focus on the 1 or 2 things that Twin has gained in the past 4 years and not the 100 things they've lost. I will admit that there were a few (minority) of people there not agreeing with Edgar, but some other popular MTGO names and grinders were agreeing with him. He said that people will always complain about something in Modern. While this is true, I'm not usually the one to complain. I can play through any meta, even if it is %$#% up. But to tell me that someone having Lurrus in their opening hand with a "cannot be discarded" clause every ... single ... game, but I can't play Preordain, GSZ, P Fire, and a million other cards; I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time accepting that.

I have come to the conclusion that Baleful Strix is indeed better than Ice-Fang Coatl. I must be wrong before. I feel that his bias is coming mostly from Legacy, where Baleful Strix can be set up to block a Delver on turns 2 or 3, while Ice-Fang Coatl is rarely a deathtouch creature by then. But Delver is not a problem in Modern; not in the slightest. Edgar brought up Goblin Guide. I brought up that Goblin Guides are double as plentiful ever since Lurrus has been in the metagame - ktkenshinx showed 6.5% pre IKO and 12% post IKO on p 251 here. I didn't even want to bring up the Bolt, Push, PTE, among other cards that the Coatl decks can use to kill Guide since they are all 4 color soup decks with Astrolabe and Abundant Growth. (or maybe Abundant Growth is only with Yorion?)
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
He's not on the hook for whatever power level Play Design/ Development assigned them. Companions can be fun, Lurrus isn't. Old formats can handle an essentially 2 for 1. Lurrus is a problem. We've seen that with other mechanics as well, where the idea is fine (or even good) and they overshoot the power level.
Turning every format into Commander was the worst idea ever. And he dares to call it innovation. He needs to retire. The whole idea of Companions is stupid and flawed and I absolutely hate them. If by the time I can play paper magic again they are not banned from constructed play I will quit after 20+ years of playing. I refuse to play Commander.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Conceptually I didnt like them, but you have to play with/against them (just like T3feri) to understand the actual impact.

Lurrus is fundamentally flawed, no way it remains unbanned.
Yorion MAY be too much.
The Combo Leviathan one MAY be too much.

Lurrus is the only one that is an absolutely slam dunk ban in old formats.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
Turning every format into Commander was the worst idea ever. And he dares to call it innovation. He needs to retire. The whole idea of Companions is stupid and flawed and I absolutely hate them. If by the time I can play paper magic again they are not banned from constructed play I will quit after 20+ years of playing. I refuse to play Commander.
Can we also stop with this stupid idea? Are you locked into playing only one-ofs? Are you only locked into playing ONLY with the companion's color identity? You're not playing %$#% commander, you just have an extra card ONCE if you meet its requirements. That's it.

You may hate the idea of them. Others love it. Others are "meh" about it. Companions are the Infect of 2020. The idea is far from flawed as well. Its execution was mediocre, and only 1 of them is extremely short sighted -I think Yorion's got plenty of room to be good and is relatively slow.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Yorion MAY be too much.
The Combo Leviathan one MAY be too much.
I'm not convinced about Yorion, but the Kraken? Seriously? A one dimensional combo deck is too much for both Modern and Legacy? Seriously?
What about Reanimator? Or Storm? Or any other one dimensional combo deck?

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

No, Pioneer Tzoulis, for the Kraken thing.

I'm talking more holistically across all formats.
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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

I played against Ponza twice in a row in a league, Obosh, the Preypiercer is insane in the deck, a lot of teh threats were already odd cmc anyways, so they deal insane amounts of damage

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Edit: and just likes that, blocked by him on Twitter. I've been using my free Twitch Prime subscription for him nearly 2 years. Guess I'll give it to someone else now.
I was watching his videos for a long time, but when he blocked me just for disagreeing I just gave up on him. For some reason he unblocked me at some point and stumbled on his Tweeter through Seth. He's even worse now...
I generally liked his opinions on things because he has the experience to back up and support most of his views. I mean all he does is play magic 40-50 hours a week across multiple formats and all.

But it seems his stance here is heavily influenced by his two most recent Modern streams. Out of 10 matches between Lurrus UR Tempo and a non-companion Electrodominance/Balance pile, he was 6-0 against Companion decks and 0-4 against Titan and Tron.

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