[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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FoodChainGoblins
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
ktkenshinx

How does today's Lurrus meta "diversity" compare to 2014's Treasure Cruise meta?

IE: "Different" decks playing Lurrus vs "different" decks playing Cruise?

I mentioned this a few times with no bites the last day or so. Curious if we have hard numbers to compare.

I'm really trying to understand if they are different, and if so, why.

For context, after rotating out of Standard and before Pioneer existed, Cruise was banned or restricted in literally every Constructed competitive format Magic has, due to its strength and ubiquity.
The last stats I saw for the Treasure Cruise era, the stats that got it banned were UR Delver - 23% and Abzan Pod - 18% of the meta.

I actually don't remember many other decks running Treasure Cruise. Burn ran it. I know this because I actually played Burn for a bit until I ran into a meta with 3 Soul Sisters decks. But not that many other decks ran it. LordSeth showed me that Scapeshift of the RUG variety was run quite often with Dig Through Time and it was very good. I realized that it was good, but I rarely saw it because UR Delver cannibalized any players that considered playing anything else.

I'll find the statistics so it's not just my "butt" statistics. EDIT> I couldn't really find any era stats, but 2014 had 5% UR Aggro.

*I have come to a realization about Aggro always being the most played archetype in Modern. I actually think that it's probably fine, as long as the discrepancy in numbers is not too high. My reasoning is that I think many newer players may flock more toward Aggro than other archetypes. Then if it's actually strong enough to play, the spikier players also will.
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Lurrus was a mistake with little consequences (for me at least). By the time we get to play paper magic again it is already banned. Its fate has been sealed IMO. The will first ban it in Vintage and Legacy, let is fester 2 months longer in Modern because that is what they always do. They always sacrifice Modern's format health to sell packs. They did it with Hogaak, Urza, Oko, OUaT etc and they will do it again.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

For more anecdotal evidence, out of the last 12 matches I played in the Practice rooms, 10 of them had companions. 5 were collection of Lurrus (mostly burn/prowess) and 4 Yorion (exclusively Soulherder, two in Bant, one 4c (for Avalanche Riders), one straight UW), with a single wonky Zirda thing with creature lands.

"Diversity."

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
"Diversity."
This is the disingenuous %$#% @ktkenshinx wants to move away from. There is as much diversity as in 2015's glorified metagame, if not more. Your 12 matches are also not a representative data set. Moreover, decks playing companions is not reduced diversity -as has repeatedly been shown. We can do this disingenuous break downs for every aspect, deck composition and cards played in every era of Modern and frame it as a bad thing.

There are plenty of things to criticize about companions -especially Lurrus-, but these kind of "statements" have no value in a critical and substantive discussion of Modern and Magic design in general.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
For more anecdotal evidence, out of the last 12 matches I played in the Practice rooms, 10 of them had companions. 5 were collection of Lurrus (mostly burn/prowess) and 4 Yorion (exclusively Soulherder, two in Bant, one 4c (for Avalanche Riders), one straight UW), with a single wonky Zirda thing with creature lands.

"Diversity."
C'mon CFP. You're smarter and better than this kind of anecdotal post. Practice room data has never been a reliable metagame indicator. The fact that you faced 4 Yorion Soulherder decks in 12 matches should be a huge indicator of this; the format isn't remotely 25% Yorion decks, let alone 24% Yorion Soulherder. Grouping Lurrus decks together into one macro category is just as disingenuous as grouping Jeskai Control and Jeskai Twin into the same category, and those decks shared FAR more cards than Lurrus Jund, Burn/Prowess, Devoted Devastation, Grixis Delver, and Hardened Scales.

I have no problem with people calling out specific, concrete, and self-evident Lurrus problems. 49% of top-tier MTGO decks are using Lurrus in one way or another. For the overall metagame, it's basically the same at 45%. Those are absurd, eye-popping numbers that suggest the card is mega busted and mega bannable. Let's focus on these legitimate red flags. We don't need to spin bizarre redefinitions of "diversity" because Lurrus is a problem. Lurrus can be a problem in its own, 50%-of-the-format right without us also looking at the following metagame breakdown and calling this not diverse.

1. Burn: 12% (60)
2. Jund: 7% (35)
3. Prowess: 5.8% (29)
4. Devoted Devastation: 5.8% (29)
5. Bant Snow Control: 5.2% (26)
6. Humans: 5% (25)
7. Amulet Titan: 5% (25)
8. Temur Urza: 4.8% (24)
9. Ponza: 3.6% (18)
10. Hardened Scales: 3.2% (16)
11. Ad Nauseam: 2.8% (14)
12. Eldrazi Tron: 2.2% (11)
13. The Rock: 2.2% (11)
14. Grixis Delver: 2% (10)
15. Infect: 2% (10)
16. Dredge: 1.8% (9)
17. Neobrand: 1.8% (9)
18. 5C Niv: 1.6% (8)
19. Grixis Shadow: 1.4% (7)

Does Lurrus see too much play? Absolutely. Does Lurrus lead to repetitive gameplay and reduced variance? Definitely. Does this metagame breakdown describe a strategically diverse set of decks that represent a variety of archetypes and distinct strategies? Also yes at the same time. Wizards is partially to blame for this loss of an argument middle ground with their outrageous ban decisions, justifications, and format management calls in the past, but players have some responsibility to not pile on the "hot take" train and go 0% or 100% on all positions.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
This could still be a diverse metagame, but only if those effective 4 cards are supporting widespread deck diversity. In this case, they are for reasons we've already discussed. The decks are all leveraging a broken card to achieve different gameplans and fulfill different archetypes. It's utterly disingenuous to call Burn, Grixis Delver, Hardened Scales, and Jund the same deck. They may all be using the same super busted card, but those decks are themselves distinct.
Just to add onto your point here. If say, Hardened Scales were swapped with UWR control, or Mardu Pyromancer, or whatever we could make the same argument about the card Lightning Bolt. If we don't swap it, we still have 3 of the 4 mentioned on Bolt.

A card being common to decks does not make the decks the same. It means the card is likely very good (in Lurrus's case we can drop the likely), but it doesn't mean decks are homogenized.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

I feel the diversity is a false sense of diversity. But I brought this up a few pages back that some people are seeing it this way. The decks that are slamming Lurrus into them are decks that don't have inherent card advantage built into them and most of these decks were propelled to Tier 1 only because of Lurrus.

It's just another way to look at it. But I feel that the companion mechanic is too strong. I'm not sure if some sort of change like Jim Davis said can or should be done. I don't know. But currently, I only think Lurrus as a Companion only should be banned and possibly Yorion. The other companions, although access is inevitable, don't need a banning right now as far as I see them.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
C'mon CFP. You're smarter and better than this kind of anecdotal post. Practice room data has never been a reliable metagame indicator.

...
I have no problem with people calling out specific, concrete, and self-evident Lurrus problems.
That's why I specifically put the qualifier at the beginning of the post. It's not a metagame indicator, but it is a snapshot of what people who aren't dropping $10 for 5 matches are experiencing. Especially since paper Magic is non-existent for the foreseeable future.

It's no secret that Companions are everywhere, that Lurrus is by far and away the most popular, and that Yorion is the second most popular, with nearly all builds utilizing Soulherder. Seems extremely representative to me.

Again, we are at the crossroads of accept our new Companion overlords as effectively a requirement for competitive play, change their rules in hopes to power them down, or ban them out of existence.

Considering how much WOTC doesn't give a flying F about the health of non-rotating formats, I imagine they blindly sit on this for months without action. There's no GPs, no PTs, no motivating factor to do anything. And who knows, maybe some even more busted nonsense from Return to Return to Zendikar that will make us whimsical for Companions, just like Companions made people stop talking about RAW walkers, broken Horizon cards, and Veil of Summer. It's just exhausting. Remember when just UR Phoenix was a problem? I miss those days.

Forgive my pessimistic nature for a game that I love, a game that I have invested thousands into, and have seen eat itself alive over the past year and a half. WOTC has done seemingly irreparable harm to its non-rotating formats, and an attitude that implies more is coming. I am just at a loss as to how to process this.

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

I'm wondering if Lurrus dominance with Mishra's bauble for consistency over multiple decks is comparable to Brainstorm's influence in Legacy except serving different colors while serving different zones for gameplay resolutions? I'll give credit to brainstorm to being a card needing to be drawn from the deck but works too well in tandem with fetchland shuffles, which also fuel any card with delve costs by piling up dead cards.

Problem with Wizards is that they are too focused on cards that can be used proactively but not necessarily being relevant solely on the board state. Lurrus is an example here for being castable from outside the game that restricts only the cmc of permanent cards, with non permanent cards having no cmc restriction. Mishra's bauble interacts too well with Lurrus in a positive manner by being a 0 cost artifact that allows its caster to draw a card. Such interaction fuels not just graveyard interactions but also any card that would trigger if a noncreature spell were cast. This play also plays nicely with draw advantage concept while also fueling card advantage when the bauble gets gravecasted through Lurrus beyond the first cantrip.

Honestly, if wizards were to do something I could see them actually hitting the bauble by saying the card slots too nicely just with Lurrus but also any deck wanting to pull off delirium synergies.

The real problem here is that wizards creates a mechanic that not only can't be interacted with discard spells, Wizards has curated the Standard environment starting with 8th Edition by prioritizing answers that may hit resolved permanents while also dancing around the issue is that permanent threats are influencing game flows outside of just resolving cards due to triggers on cast, after entering the battlefield, dying or statics with 3eferi. Not even touching the London Mulligan rule impacts or Once Upon A Time being a maneless spell that alters what cards can be grabbed from the top of the library which would be best answered with manaless answers to its casting or denying library manipulations. Don't see Wizards ever printing a Leyline that prevents card draw or searches.

tldr - card design more focused on advancing game flows through multiple effects resolving outside of just playing permanents means you need more answers that care about stack, graveyard and library manipulations apart from outside of game zones. We are in an era where Daze and Red Elemental Blast aren't the worst designs for stack manipulation.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Maro has been tweeting about it all afternoon, I feel bad for the guy because a lot of the 'big name' competitive folks are just ripping the mechanic.

Companions are not long for our formats, there will absolutely be some ban's in very short order.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Maro has been tweeting about it all afternoon, I feel bad for the guy because a lot of the 'big name' competitive folks are just ripping the mechanic.

Companions are not long for our formats, there will absolutely be some ban's in very short order.
Hogaak and Eye of Ugin each got at least 3 months of utter destruction. Ikoria isn't even released in paper yet. They're going to be around for a while.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

No chance. Its clear that he has heard loud and clear from competitive players across ever constructed format that they are flawed.

There is no way at all Lurrus lasts 3 months. I would be stunned if we dont get an update on Monday.

Vintage and Legacy are completely busted in half, and Modern isnt much better, and he's hearing it to the point of tweeting about it with dozens of people across the day.

He knows (knew!) it was a %$#% up. He just ran with it, and nobody on the balance side even pretended to stop him.
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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

Maro is actually tweeting about his? Holy, I guess this is the power of a quarantine.

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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

I didn't see anything about specifically Lurrus, but there is a poll asking whether they should prioritize balance or innovation when they can't have both. I'm inclined to assume that this has to do with the reception of the Companion mechanic, if not the last 3 sets in general. I can't say what's going on in the heads of anyone involved in R & D, but if you're dealing an absolute like that to Twitter, you have to know that something's wrong.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

I've been away a while so I've been reading the last few pages. I'm not going to try to argue "what is a diverse format?" That is not the question on my mind. Imo the entire companion mechanic was probably a bad idea but now we have to deal with it somehow. Lurrus is everywhere and I FULLY expect it to be banned in multiple formats very soon for simply dominance reasons if not diversity too. I think we should just accept he is going away and start looking further ahead. Moving forward from that, the question I care about is, will any other companions need to meet the same fate after lurrus?
The weak companions that see very little play are going to be fine enough long term, but the ones that see some more play like Yorion, Zirda, gyruda or even obosh, could quickly rise in popularity after lurrus leaves. Does anyone think that any of these will become to oppressive? Meaning ~15% of the meta or more. I think that is close to the percentage we have historically used to determine increased ban probability.
I don't think any of them will be too dominant at this point, but Yorion is probably the next one to watch in modern. Gyruda and Zirda are the next ones to watch in legacy and vintage. Companions will still be good and often seen, but only lurrus is ban worthy at this point imo. Does anyone expect any other companion to get banned besides lurrus in the relatively near term?

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Why not allow decks which do not play a Companion to reveal and start the game with a removal spell from outside the game?

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago



Dare we hope my friends?! COULD IT HAPPEN?!
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Maro has been tweeting about it all afternoon, I feel bad for the guy because a lot of the 'big name' competitive folks are just ripping the mechanic.

Companions are not long for our formats, there will absolutely be some ban's in very short order.
I recently went to the Wizard's website to complain about not receiving my Secret Lair Stargazing set (the first Secret Lair I've ordered) yet. Among the choices were to complain about Companions. That's how I knew right away that it is very common and they are ready to give some output, lol.

I'm with you on Vintage and Legacy, where Lurrus will meet his not so Shallow Grave, but I'm closer to believing cfusionpm on Modern. I don't think that they will ban anything this quickly in Modern. I don't know how long it will be until paper Magic resumes, but I feel that the ban will be somewhere between right before paper Magic begins or right after paper Magic resumes.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Yeah, I'm fine with Modern prediction being after Vintage/Legacy. Those formats are an absolute joke at this point.

I'm comfortable however with the knowledge that Maro has heard what I personally have been complaining about since the London Mull was implemented.

Their 'less variance' path, is absolute disaster for competitive high power formats. I am not willing to entertain thoughts to the contrary anymore.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Yeah, I'm fine with Modern prediction being after Vintage/Legacy. Those formats are an absolute joke at this point.

I'm comfortable however with the knowledge that Maro has heard what I personally have been complaining about since the London Mull was implemented.

Their 'less variance' path, is absolute disaster for competitive high power formats. I am not willing to entertain thoughts to the contrary anymore.
I've been arguing for the unban of stuff like Preordain and Green Sun's Zenith for years. Basically the naysayers, which has admittedly become much less, have their best point in that the cards are not super powerful, but decrease the variance in Modern. That, they say, makes it more like Legacy, where Xerox decks have always ruled the roost. That is a point that I can't argue much. I just have had to accept that Modern players don't want Modern to be more consistent.

But now with stuff like Once Upon a Time starting us off and now Companions, it doesn't get more consistent than that. It feels like a slap in the face, but I guess it's just WotC doesn't want to go with old cards - they want to print new ones. For this reason, cards like Preordain and Green Sun's Zenith will never be in Modern. Yes, we may get something much more busted, like a UU Preordained, scry 4, draw 2 or XGG - search for 2 Green creatures of X or less and put them both into play. Twin falls on another spectrum, so a ban of that is possible (I believe,,,a friend of mine who works with WotC claims that she has talked to Maro before). We'll see.

*If they're going to print busted cards, how about a Brainshower that draws 2 cards for U, then put 1 card back on top? :cool:
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

blkdemonight wrote:
1 year ago
I'm wondering if Lurrus dominance with Mishra's bauble for consistency over multiple decks is comparable to Brainstorm's influence in Legacy except serving different colors while serving different zones for gameplay resolutions?
I doubt it. Brainstorm works just well enough to keep a casual meta from homogenizing around a couple of top tier decks. Legacy is far more broken than is believed, but no one really wants to break it, and if someone does... there's not enough of a push to get everyone to adopt the broken deck.

Also, Brainstorm doesn't really invalidate any card in your deck. Lurrus is awful for Magic going forward because it means any permanent with a CMC of 3 or higher gets invalidated. This is why I believe they'll ultimately be forced to ban it, even if we have strategic diversity, Wizards cannot sell the idea of sending cards to older formats like Modern, Legacy, or Vintage, and especially not the home of old standard decks (Pioneer) when a card like Lurrus exists.

Practically every marquee card is 3+ CMC permanent, and Lurrus invalidates them all. That is a look that Wizards isn't going to want, because not only does it mean they can't have those memorable cards live on, but it also destroys any concept of effective removal in the future at higher CMC's due to the tempo loss, that whole threats vs answers thing they already struggle with.

Essentially, if Lurrus continues to exist, then the only way to correct the metagame is to introduce several 3+ CMC permanents that are so powerful that you would rather play them over Lurrus. And given the difference in consistency, as well as color requirements, that would mean a whole slew of cards that are a couple steps above things like Liliana of the Veil, Urza, and JTMS at those 3 and 4 slots. That's just not something Wizards can reasonably do.

Simultaneously, the existence of Lurrus would limit how powerful anything that's 2 or less CMC could be, due to the potential for recursion. They won't make a Snapcaster Mage mistake again, which resulted in significantly lowering spell power going forward, and making cards like Cavern of Souls.

This is why Lurrus will be banned. It wipes out absolutely massive chunks of design space. It doesn't matter if the meta is diverse or not, we've got strategic diversity right now. It becomes very difficult to make new cards that people get excited about when Lurrus exists.

Also, when Reid Duke of all people is being snippy over a card, you know you've goofed. His streams with his modern pregame action line is the equivalent of Kibler (another popular player known for a great attitude that Wizards has gone to extensive lengths to promote) doing his F6 thing against eggs at a GP. Lurrus will absolutely be banned.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
He knows (knew!) it was a %$#% up. He just ran with it, and nobody on the balance side even pretended to stop him.
Are we sure about this? If he knew it's power (and he's not great at power level, but he may have known), he would 100% be against a card like this. He frequently says that one of his main duties is to preserve design space. Lurrus almost completely eliminates all future design space. All permanents at 2 CMC or less have to account for Lurrus recursion. All permanents over 2 CMC need to be absurdly powerful to ever warrant consideration. All spells that interact with permanents need to do so assuming those permanents cost 2 or less.

I really, can't imagine him ever believing this would be acceptable. That assumes he was aware of the power level at print. If he wasn't, I would put good money on the fact that he is aware of it now, and knows as the lead designer that they need to eliminate this card in the interest of future design space. Even if they were willing to ignore Modern, Legacy, and Vintage... Pioneer absolutely 100% would still need a ban due to this reason, and if they're banning it there they might as well ban it everywhere else because the social cost is negligible at that point, and people would likely prefer it. We're also in a unique period where card sales are much less of a factor than normal, making bans of new cards easier.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Are we sure about this? If he knew it's power (and he's not great at power level, but he may have known), he would 100% be against a card like this. He frequently says that one of his main duties is to preserve design space. Lurrus almost completely eliminates all future design space. All permanents at 2 CMC or less have to account for Lurrus recursion. All permanents over 2 CMC need to be absurdly powerful to ever warrant consideration. All spells that interact with permanents need to do so assuming those permanents cost 2 or less.
Thats just it. There is no world in which he designs companion, and is not aware of how powerful 'always' having a specific card in 'hand' is. I just wont accept it.

You have to either.

1. Think he's completely ignorant to the mechanics of the game after 20+ years of design/dev work.

OR

2. Accept that he understood the risk, and passed the buck to Development to balance it.

Honestly both are kinda lame, but option 1 is far worse.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
*If they're going to print busted cards, how about a Brainshower that draws 2 cards for U, then put 1 card back on top? :cool:
I've been asking for a card with that exact rules text since at least when Probe was banned.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago

There is no way that Wx prison is a prerequisite for a diverse, healthy metagame. Even the healthiest periods of Modern we've seen (2015 is an oft-cited example) didn't have this. It's just way too niche to be considered a prerequisite for healthy fields.
Wx Prison is not requirement for a healthy meta. Prison is a requirement.
2015 was very poor because of the lack of prison, you can talk diversity all you like, but if there is no prison of any sort, there is not diversity. 5 small mpox decks on MTG top 8 was about the sum of 2015. People here like 2015 because they like playing twin or jund. The presence of prison acts as a break on combo and unfair decks, especially ramp decks that everyone moans about. This is why Modern has become what it is- a format of perma bans unable to handle the latest pushed walkers and cards, because designers do not design answers or allow resources to be attacked. So people do what they want.
2015 Modern did have a prison deck. Lantern Control won GP OKC in fall 2015 and remained a strong presence for the rest of the year. In fact, this is one of the only Modern eras that did have a viable, top-tier prison deck, and yet you cite 2015 as an example of an era with no prison decks. Am I missing some other viable prison deck from 2011-2015? 2015 itself? Or 2016-present? Maybe the Grixis Whir decks of 2019, but that was a pretty serious corner case. Unless you're arguing that all periods of Modern are unhealthy because they lack prison decks, I don't think you can defend a stance where prison is a requirement for a healthy format.
I actually did play Lantern, I was fully aware of it. I thought you might mention it- it was discussed here before a while ago talking about 2015.
This is the 2015 MTG top 8 list for control using 2015 as a filter.

Control
18 %
UrzaTron 171 6 %
UWx Midrange 93 3 %
Scapeshift 77 3 %
Grixis Control 62 2 %
UW Control 49 2 %
Gift Control 13 0 %
Eldrazi Control 12 0 %
Tooth and Nail 9 0 %
UR Control 8 0 %
Urza 7 0 %
Mono Red Control 6 0 %
Faeries 6 0 %
BUG Control 5 0 %
Esper Control 5 0 %
Mono Black Control 4 0 %
Mardu Midrange 1 0 %
Nahiri Control 1 0 %
Smallpox 1 0 %
Other - Control 5 0 %

Now Lantern on MTG Top 8 has always been retroactively listed under Urza decks, because, well MTG top 8 is odd.
Some search fu gives us just 7 entries under the Lantern Control heading for 2015 (compared with almost 10 times that in 2016).
Here are the seven
image.png
and 2016
image.png
We know MTG top 8 has never been excessively exhaustive, though it is better now than it ever was back then, but the seven entries are remarkably low to be called a real presence in 2015. The GP win lead to a lot of interest (my sales of the pieces were high), I kept the deck myself and played it in paper. The problem with Lantern is that it is a bit like the prison equivalent of KCI decks, it was a good deck, but required hours of practice, and was not very friendly to online play with the click rate being high, so it did not get the numbers after Zak E's breakthrough. Crucially, good opponents made the deck better by playing more predictable lists, knowing when to scoop and not calling the judge over at comp REL every five mins. The deck was viable, (enjoyable in some ways too if both players were experienced) but the uptake was tiny early on. So I will happily concede the point that there was a prison deck in 2015, and a very good one, but sadly by a quirk of luck for most people it did not happen, at least until 2016 when it made the breakthrough into the mainstream.

If you want to compare to other Prison-y decks in Modern, I would point to what became christened as Sun and Moon, (Boros Control) in 2017 [which has many more entries than Top Control in 2015], Skred Red/Pyro Prison (both decks being the same deck in many ways from different angles), and Death and Taxes/Hatebears, which was once a very common deck back in the early days of the format, as well as 8 rack, Marytr Proc, and that excludes the incorrectly named Ponza and a fair few rogue landkilling lists in the naya colours (RW/RGW etc) and the Whir lists based on Bridge you rightly mention as a corner case- because it was very to hugely popular for a short period. There have been a fair few bubbling away in similar numbers to Top control, and when they are about Modern is better for them. I agree that Modern has not been prison central, all it has had is a minor presence, but I will stand by 2016 and 2017 as much, much better than 2015.
To answer your last point, I would say that Modern generally has had issues with certain decks when a prison deck would have helped- and overall the format's lack of robustness has often been partially down to weak answers and a lack of a top tier deck like DnT in Legacy (which was originally called white prison in Europe back around 2006/7). Anecdotally I can recall a couple Tron players telling me that they often lost to hatebears at a PTQ when I was on a hatebear deck, but those decks got outclassed circa 2014 or so, and Tron marched on. So there is the argument that Modern being a format with a tiny amount of prison has lead to a lot of issues that would have been solved by decks like Lands or DnT in Legacy, let alone Pox, Stax etc. and I do subscribe to that to a great extent.

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drmarkb
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Albegas wrote:
1 year ago
I didn't see anything about specifically Lurrus, but there is a poll asking whether they should prioritize balance or innovation when they can't have both. I'm inclined to assume that this has to do with the reception of the Companion mechanic, if not the last 3 sets in general. I can't say what's going on in the heads of anyone involved in R & D, but if you're dealing an absolute like that to Twitter, you have to know that something's wrong.
I am not a twitter man, nothing can be said in 140 characters or less that is worth saying, but someone please tell him the answer is balance. And a dedicated test team for eternal formats.

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