[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

Hey, at least we're not Legacy, right?


User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 816
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
Hey, at least we're not Legacy, right?
Lol, you mean to tell me that Eldrazi Aggro and Mono Red Prison are trying to be the hero that Legacy deserves?

(I know you hate to read this, lol)
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

No different than when Affinity and Burn where running Bridge during Eldrazi Winter.

And people think Magic is healthy. lol
UR Control UR

User avatar
Albegas
Posts: 127
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Albegas » 11 months ago

Pretty sure no one has it worse than Vintage right now. Modern players and Legacy players can at least look forward to the eventual ban if/when WotC has a large enough nail to drive into Lurrus's Coffin, but Vintage can't exactly restrict it and call it a day. Either Vintage is going to have its first real ban, or Vintage is going to have to live with Lurrus for the rest of its natural life, and I would not be surprised if the next ban announcement we got focused entirely on Vintage and just let Lurrus rot for another month everywhere else. Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how Lurrus is ultimately handled in Vintage, or at least more so than the other formats it's breaking

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 816
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

Albegas wrote:
11 months ago
Pretty sure no one has it worse than Vintage right now. Modern players and Legacy players can at least look forward to the eventual ban if/when WotC has a large enough nail to drive into Lurrus's Coffin, but Vintage can't exactly restrict it and call it a day. Either Vintage is going to have its first real ban, or Vintage is going to have to live with Lurrus for the rest of its natural life, and I would not be surprised if the next ban announcement we got focused entirely on Vintage and just let Lurrus rot for another month everywhere else. Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how Lurrus is ultimately handled in Vintage, or at least more so than the other formats it's breaking
You mean the Lurrus of the Dream-Den, Black Lotus format? I watched a bit of the format and that seemed to be pretty much it.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

If Wizard's has ANY professional integrity left, they will ban Lurrus in Vintage and Legacy, very very quickly.

They may leave Modern alone, for a bit longer.
UR Control UR

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
If Wizard's has ANY professional integrity left, they will ban Lurrus in Vintage and Legacy, very very quickly.

They may leave Modern alone, for a bit longer.
They let Faithless Looting destroy our format for nearly a year and a half, while letting Hogaak specifically ruin 3 GPs. They don't give a flying F about managing our "health."

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

This is even worse though. Wiping out Legacy AND Vintage with collateral damage to Modern and Pioneer??
UR Control UR

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 816
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
If Wizard's has ANY professional integrity left, they will ban Lurrus in Vintage and Legacy, very very quickly.

They may leave Modern alone, for a bit longer.
They let Faithless Looting destroy our format for nearly a year and a half, while letting Hogaak specifically ruin 3 GPs. They don't give a flying F about managing our "health."
Hogaak, definitely. But with Faithless Looting, I think the decision was a lot tougher.

Yes, Faithless Looting decks were the best at one point right before Hogaak got printed. UR Phoenix had emerged as the best deck. Dredge was very close as well. And Mono Red Phoenix was up there. Other decks couldn't quite compete, but were somewhat close at times. Maybe you can argue that Arclight Phoenix sales from the new set needed to be completed, but I think it was more like an Arcum's Astrolabe situation where WotC didn't know what they wanted the "staples" of Modern to be. Remember, Faithless Looting was called the "Brainstorm" of Modern, a card that we know is the best card, but are all right with having an identity around it. They may have also wanted to give UR Mages a chance to play the best deck in the format for a bit again. ;)

I remember way before Hogaak when Looting first raised to prominence. These were the cards that were considered to be the best in the format; ie. play these or lose -

1. Faithless Looting
2. Ancient Stirrings
3. Mox Opal
4. Noble Hierarch

That was also the order in which they were discussed to be possibly banned. Nowadays, we know that #1 and #3 were banned eventually. The choice of Faithless Looting was a tough one and I personally am glad that they dragged that one out. It is not like Eye of Ugin or Hogaak that should have just gotten the X right out of the gate - possibly even an emergency ban, as much as I hate those because they are bad for the game.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

cf and I knew Looting and/or Phoenix needed to go. I was calling Modern the GY format, and being mocked for it. :p
UR Control UR

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 816
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
cf and I knew Looting and/or Phoenix needed to go. I was calling Modern the GY format, and being mocked for it. :p
It depends on what time period you were talking about. Faithless Looting pulled ahead of the others only after a while. And Ancient Stirrings was nipping at its heels for a while as well. Many argued and rightfully so that if Faithless Looting was banned, then Ancient Stirrings would take its place and definitely need a ban soon thereafter.

I don't think people mocked you for it. There was a time when Leyline of the Void started rising in price from a $5 card, even before it became a $45 card during Hogaak. Surgical Extraction made a jump from a $10 card as well, capping at nearly $50 I think. These price jumps are due to demand. The problem with Faithless Looting is that people were unsure about whether this is just going to be a Modern staple and like a "Brainstorm," but for Modern. Could it be that card that is super good, other worse cards get banned around it, but makes up the identity of Modern?

*I mean, WotC could have gone that way and banned Faithless Looting earlier. They most certainly would have banned Ancient Stirrings as well, as it had seen play in Tron, Amulet, Lantern, and Hardened Scales, which had become very prevalent in the meta. I still remember a top 8 that ktkenshinx showed when both Stirrings and Looting were legal that had 5 Stirrings decks (4 different) and 2 Faithless Looting decks. This showed that these cards BOTH were a problem.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

Of course, and nobody who played anything fair looked at Stirrings and thought 'ya thats fine'.

Then Wizards pushed Astrolabe on us...
UR Control UR

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 816
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
Of course, and nobody who played anything fair looked at Stirrings and thought 'ya thats fine'.

Then Wizards pushed Astrolabe on us...
I think that if WotC decided to leave Faithless Looting alone and do some unbans, Modern would be much better off than now. Now, there is too much to do just to get to (near) that point now. It just depends on how WotC wants to go about things. I personally didn't want them to ban Looting, then Stirrings, then possibly Mox Opal (before Urza was printed) and maybe Noble Hierarch. Noble Hierarch especially stood out to me. If they ban this freaking mana dork, I will flip my %$#%. That being banned is a terrible sign for Modern. All of the rest are justifiable, even if I didn't want them banned. I preferred unbans to at least try to relieve the problems of metashare percentages.

Wizards can always ban the best deck. Or they can let it marinate a while and ban it when they deem worthy. The how/when is usually determined on numbers (stats), but the timing is a bit more ambiguous in my opinion.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

If they wanted a format that could even approach the quality of pre-Eldrazi.

1. Multiple bans.
2. Multiple unbans.
3. Careful and measured Design and Development.
4. Testing, and pre-bans for designs that would harm non-rotational formats.

Lets ask, is that even REMOTELY realistic?
UR Control UR

User avatar
motleyslayer
Posts: 844
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by motleyslayer » 11 months ago

idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
If they wanted a format that could even approach the quality of pre-Eldrazi.

1. Multiple bans.
2. Multiple unbans.
3. Careful and measured Design and Development.
4. Testing, and pre-bans for designs that would harm non-rotational formats.

Lets ask, is that even REMOTELY realistic?
as much as I would like that to happen, I don't think it's realistic at all in the slightest.

As they've shown in the past year, they've failed to make even standard with its MUCH smaller size balanced at all, as shown by how many design mistakes they've made in the past year alone (Oko, OUAT, Veil etc). They've probably have to have a team whose sole purpose is fixing modern/restoring it to how good it used to be. And they'd have to probably take several months to do so.

In regards to 1 and 2, I'd be fine with multiple bans and unbans, especially unbans. I just don't know what I'd unban, what do you think is fair?

User avatar
Albegas
Posts: 127
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Albegas » 11 months ago

idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
If they wanted a format that could even approach the quality of pre-Eldrazi.

1. Multiple bans.
2. Multiple unbans.
3. Careful and measured Design and Development.
4. Testing, and pre-bans for designs that would harm non-rotational formats.

Lets ask, is that even REMOTELY realistic?
I mean, number 4 is basically out. We can't expect them to spend time focusing on non-rotating format's D & D when they can barely keep Standard, their flagship format, afloat. Number 2 isn't bad, but there are only so many cards they could safely unban. The most liberal unban list I can think of has maybe 10 cards, and even if they're safe, by nature of being safe unbans, they would at best be another option for T1 players; WotC isn't going to unban anything that would match T1 decks if the current complaint is the power level of T1 decks. Besides, if they unbanned all the safe unbans only to print new cards that break the format again, we're back to square one, except now we're out of unban placebos.

That really leaves 1 and 4. I honestly think that a ban of Lurrus, Uro and Veil would go a long way in depowering the T1 decks while maintaining a reasonable spread of play styles, but 4 is the real crutch. It can't be said enough: if they can't even design cards without hurting Standard, bans are a stop gap measure. They'll fix Modern for a couple months until the next set comes out, and we'll be right back where we started: complaining about the broken deck(s) of the month pretending that all of Modern's issues stem from those decks and not from WotC's awful Play & Design team decisions.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

Its a question to me of power level. Modern (unlike Legacy and Vintage) seems to be able to exist with Companions.

I dont think its healthy, but its possible we see some adjustment. Same for Uro, Tron, Astrolabe, and so on.

If that is the power level, unban Pod and Twin at a minimum. You can possibly unban Artifact Lands, to see if you can reinvigorate Affinity since Opal is gone.

Honestly though, I dont know. The issue I have is that people like Maro will speak out if the side of their mouth on things and give us bull answers like 'well Lurrus is not more powerful than the Power 9, so its fine for vintage'.

As to my list.

1. Wont happen.
2. SHOULD HAPPEN.
3. Wont happen.
4. Wont happen.

It is honestly difficult for me to entertain supporting Magic, period, when you consider the design process for 2019+. Look at it, seriously. Nothing remotely healthy is going on here, for the long term nature of the game.
UR Control UR

User avatar
Albegas
Posts: 127
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Albegas » 11 months ago

I think Modern's always been in a weird place in terms of power level. For year's, we've been leagues above Standard in terms of power level; any set producing fringe cards in Standard have been "successful" Modern sets, which is a pretty low bar. On the other end, Brainstorm + FoW has been an absurdly high hurdle for any card in Legacy to pass, and the few that do tend to get banned. I think for years, we've gotten used to being that middle bar, and recent design decisions have been raising the significantly.

Now, this isn't a bad thing. Power creep in non-rotating formats is expected. The issue is the pace. We've seen a higher jump in the last year than we've seen since the Twin ban. I think what's throwing people off isn't power creep, but the sudden jump in power creep. I truly think that if WotC really fixes 3 so that, at the very least, they under the assumption that an under-powered Standard card is better than a banned one, they can just ban our most recent offenders and still maintain their goal of raising the power level of Standard.

That being said, they can't just keep raising threat levels and keep answers at Kaladesh levels. Anyone remember when Mana Leak was OK in Standard? Because I do. WotC needs to figure out that if they print a 3 CMC Growth Spiral with life gain that recurs into a 6/6 for 4 CMC, it's OK if I use a non-recursive 2 CMC counter on its first iteration. Timmy still gets to laugh at me when he recasts the same card 1-2 turns later AND gets to keep its fat body around

User avatar
motleyslayer
Posts: 844
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by motleyslayer » 11 months ago

TBH, I think that a pod unban would probably be reasonable at this point. Yeah we've gotten even more value creatures in the 5 years since it was banned, but the format is so different than it was then that the format can probably support it.

My issue with twin right now is that it gets 3 mana teferi, which seems absurd in the deck. Yeah they have to play 3feri on 3, then take an extra turn to combo but it's so much harder to interact with because of that. I mean I guess if its going off on t5 then it's probably fine but I dunno.

I'm still kind of afraid of the artifact lands in modern but I'd probably be willing to change my mind depending on the argument for unbanning them

I don't know how I feel about legacy having Force of Will + Brainstorm but modern being without it. On the one hand I feel that those cards would prevent so much nonsense from happening, as they glue legacy as a whole together and keep a lot of degenerate nonsense that exists in legacy in check. On the other hand, those cards kind of oppress a lot and free spells are kind of absurd

User avatar
Albegas
Posts: 127
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Albegas » 11 months ago

motleyslayer wrote:
11 months ago
TBH, I think that a pod unban would probably be reasonable at this point. Yeah we've gotten even more value creatures in the 5 years since it was banned, but the format is so different than it was then that the format can probably support it.

My issue with twin right now is that it gets 3 mana teferi, which seems absurd in the deck. Yeah they have to play 3feri on 3, then take an extra turn to combo but it's so much harder to interact with because of that. I mean I guess if its going off on t5 then it's probably fine but I dunno.

I'm still kind of afraid of the artifact lands in modern but I'd probably be willing to change my mind depending on the argument for unbanning them

I don't know how I feel about legacy having Force of Will + Brainstorm but modern being without it. On the one hand I feel that those cards would prevent so much nonsense from happening, as they glue legacy as a whole together and keep a lot of degenerate nonsense that exists in legacy in check. On the other hand, those cards kind of oppress a lot and free spells are kind of absurd
I think Artifact lands are fine so long as Astrolabe is legal. The only artifact decks right now are Hardened Scale decks, which got a real shot in the arm with Lurrus and The Ozolith, and Urza decks, which really don't want to use Artifact lands because you can't fetch them and they can't cast Astrolabe. It might be a different story without Astrolabe, but in a world with artifact lands and no Astrolabe, it seems like a net loss

Twin won't come back with Veil and T3feri. This isn't because it's undeniably broken. Rather, it's the opposite: it's too much of an unknown factor, and WotC can't or won't test to see if Temur Twin or Jeskai Twin will be broken. It sucks, but Twin, by nature of unbans, can't and won't save a broken format

Pod's in a similar boat. We just got Heliod + Spike feeder. If there's even the slightest risk of Pod breaking Heliod + Spike Feeder, they won't unban it. Once again, it sucks, but we're better off assuming Pod isn't coming back because WotC doesn't see Pod decks of old. They see what could be the Pod decks of new with an infinite life combo using 2 CMC 3 creatures.

I don't think Modern needs either FoW or Brainstorm. If WotC isn't going to curb Standard's power level, we do at least need to slowly up Modern's answers. Let us see what Counterspell and some better 1 CMC answers like Swords to Plowshares do for the format before we jump on Brainstorm and FoW wagon. Then again, I might be saying that because I'm awaiting the announcement of Nu-Legacy, which will be Legacy without the Reserved List. It will be announced around the same time that my personal unicorn ships :p

ThatStoryTeller
Posts: 49
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by ThatStoryTeller » 11 months ago

So if Im remembering all of this right, the current collection of ideas Ive come to is this

Introduce a companion rules change for Modern. Either it replaces a card in your hand at the start of the game OR they can ONLY be regular maindeck cards in modern. Im fine with changing the rule to remove the +1 advantage instead of removing the consistency assistance, but I could see removing access to the companion benefits in modern.

Common Banned List suggestions that have been discussed and whos meta-game effects have been elaborated upon at length
-1 Teferi
-1 Arcum's Astrolabe
-1 Veil of Summer

And here come the ones that people are gonna look at me sideways about, these are mostly personal but people here that I respect have already made cases suggesting that they are worth exploring.

+1 Splinter Twin (With teferi and veil gone this card is fine in the deck that plays it)
+1 Birthing Pod (skeptical that it would be a real problem, but I didnt like playing against the card truthfully)
+1 Umezawa's Jitte (skeptical that it would be a real problem, but I think the value creature decks would make great use of this card, and I am all about that)
+5 artifact lands

From there Ancient Stirrings is put on a real watchlist, but I think itd end up going after a short while due to the "go over what everyone else is doing" gameplan.

Anyone else care to weigh in on anything I missed? Or have a good companion alteration theyd suggest?

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

Companion needs to go, any modification that still allows it to bypass rules of variance which have maintained Magic through decades of play is unacceptable, to me.

The rest I agree with, though I'm not sure Astrolabe is busted, to the point of breaking. Its very very good, but I'm still not sure it needs a ban, even if it bypasses the Mana system.

I dont know, its hard to say because the power level of the format is jumping up and down constantly.
UR Control UR

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 816
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

Even though I agree that Companion was a terrible mechanic that they introduced to the game, I personally feel only Lurrus of the Dream-Den needs to go. It is a card on the level of Oko, Thief of Crowns that basically needs bans in every format, even Vintage Cube in my opinion (for Oko, not Lurrus because it's not in yet). From there, Yorion, Sky Nomad may need a banning as well. None of the other companions are pushing the envelope of a super strong deck yet in Modern. Perhaps they will and at that point, they will need to be banned yet.

As for unbannings, I think Green Sun's Zenith, Preordain, Splinter Twin, Birthing Pod, and possibly Artifact lands (actually yes, they are safe without some other stuff in the format) are safe. I personally don't see Umezawa's Jitte as a safe card, but maybe I am wrong here? I just see stuff like being on the play, getting counters on Jitte, then the opponent's creature deck is not viable until they can deal with Jitte first. But it is a planet of much better than Lurrus right now. In fact, Mental Misstep and Eye of Ugin may even be better than having Lurrus right now.

Bannings - I am all right with those being banned. Maybe Uro doesn't need to be banned if those others are. But I don't really want Ancient Stirrings banned, nor do I think it should. If Tron is too much of a problem, I feel doing something with the London Mulligan, like @idSurge said, is more appropriate.

*@ThatStoryTeller - I remember during a the beginning of the reign of UB Faeries in Standard, I would win games with 3 lands (at least 1 producing Black), Bitterblossom, and Loxodon Warhammer out of Mono Black Korlash Control. Decks simply couldn't beat this unless they dealt with hard to deal with permanents like BB or Warhammer. Or else there was no way to race this. And this equipment was way worse than Jitte.

This is probably not a good analogy, but Jitte is just too strong. I've played against this card a lot in multiple formats and WITH it in Legacy. Wait, I did play it in my own Standard Combo decks as well to destroy opponent's Jittes.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

"Jitte is too strong" is kind of a strange take to have looking at Modern for the past two years and into today.

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 816
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
"Jitte is too strong" is kind of a strange take to have looking at Modern for the past two years and into today.
Point taken. With all of the recent printings and the inability to ban all of them within any fair time period, I do agree then that Jitte is fine. I guess Modern is never going to go fully back to that point.

But then I should probably also add other stuff to the list of cards I feel can be unbanned - Punishing Fire, Seething Song, and Deathrite Shaman. Shaman can gobble up Uro ... eh, eh :hmm:

I think most of my feelings for Modern hinge on "ifs." If everything stays legal, then honestly we could probably just play a no banned list Modern with the exception of Eye of Ugin, Hogaak, and Mental Misstep. It's just we can't have stuff like Green Sun's Zenith for %$#%'s sake being banned while people are playing Lurrus in 50% of decks.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Modern”