[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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cfusionpm
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Bauble is the obvious ban choice in that it's another incorrect choice in a long list of wrong and incorrect choices for ban, as KTK listed above.

Is the "problem" what Bauble does? Or is the "problem" being able to cast it over and over each turn due to a card which is immediately accessible and immune from Thoughtseize?

Banning Bauble would be just as bad and wrong as trying to hurt Hogaak by banning Bridge From Below.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Let's be fair, Bridge had it coming either way. It's a card that's bound to break at some point down the line, like Looting. Contrary to Looting though it never enabled interactive magic.

Banning Bauble as @cfusionpm and others said will be a huge mistake and will also kill Urza/Emry and Shadow decks. I know most of you don't really care for the former, but there will be no Artifact decks anymore.

I still think it's too early to call whether Lurrus needs a ban (in Modern at least). I find Yorion a more powerful companion.
Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
Mishra's Bauble is the correct ban here. It also neuters Urza a bit, without him having any chance to be banned in the future.
What's left of Urza to neuter? If you're talking about the Uroza decks, Urza isn't the problem there. If you're talking about Grixis Urza and/or Breach decks, I'll ask you, what have they done since the banning of Mox Opal?

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Let's be fair, Bridge had it coming either way. It's a card that's bound to break at some point down the line, like Looting. Contrary to Looting though it never enabled interactive magic.
BridgeVine was nothing more than a gimmicky Tier 3 deck until Hogaak broke it to pieces. Sure, very few people are actually mourning its departure, but its ban was in order to hit Hogaak, and that was a spectacular failure of judgement. One more in a very long line of spectacular failures of judgement. I don't mind one way or another if Bridge stayed legal or not, but it was absolutely the wrong choice as a means for dealing with Hogaak.
Banning Bauble as cfusionpm and others said will be a huge mistake and will also kill Urza/Emry and Shadow decks. I know most of you don't really care for the former, but there will be no Artifact decks anymore.
Call it spiteful, but why does there "need" to be artifact decks? That was literally the line I got for years when I wanted a UR control/Tempo deck. Why are any of us "owed" any kind of deck? What protections should artifact decks have that Snap Bolt decks never got? I don't mean this as antagonistic to you in any way, just in general observation to the discussion as a whole.

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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Let's be fair, Bridge had it coming either way. It's a card that's bound to break at some point down the line, like Looting. Contrary to Looting though it never enabled interactive magic.
BridgeVine was nothing more than a gimmicky Tier 3 deck until Hogaak broke it to pieces. Sure, very few people are actually mourning its departure, but its ban was in order to hit Hogaak, and that was a spectacular failure of judgement. One more in a very long line of spectacular failures of judgement. I don't mind one way or another if Bridge stayed legal or not, but it was absolutely the wrong choice as a means for dealing with Hogaak.
Banning Bauble as cfusionpm and others said will be a huge mistake and will also kill Urza/Emry and Shadow decks. I know most of you don't really care for the former, but there will be no Artifact decks anymore.
Call it spiteful, but why does there "need" to be artifact decks? That was literally the line I got for years when I wanted a UR control/Tempo deck. Why are any of us "owed" any kind of deck? What protections should artifact decks have that Snap Bolt decks never got? I don't mean this as antagonistic to you in any way, just in general observation to the discussion as a whole.
Because there are players who enjoy the gears in the machine interaction style of gameplay. Simple as that. Same as there are people who enjoy my category of decks in the blue midrange realm. Sure none of these decks should exist at a level where nothing else can be played *subjectively*, but with wizards making the decisions they do, we dont live in that world. Dont get me wrong, I still have my thopter foundry deck sleeved up, and my affinity deck sleeved up, looking for ways to help those decks keep up with the average field, just like with my faeries experimentation...others who are as interested will do the same. Bauble should be kept off the ban discussion table but the risk is clearly there, and thats actually frustrating.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

If a turn 3 cat into bauble is somehow too much, then bauble is not the issue.

I mean please, people, be real.

It's the cat.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. Sarcasm doesn't show easily online. I put "sad" at the end, but I see how that could be conveyed differently.

Banning Mishra's Bauble is the same kind of thinking that got Bridge INCORRECTLY banned and Mox Opal incorrectly banned. Ktkenshinx showed above WotC's history of banning older cards instead of newer cards. I love the way he displayed it all out. This is me now - Mishra's Bauble is NOT the problem.

@Tzoulis - if Bridge from Below were legal right now, it would literally only be used in someone's trade binder to trade away the four $5 cards for four $0.50 Narset, Parter of Veils because well, the latter is actually used somewhere. "It was bound to break somewhere down the line. May as well ban it now." You could say the same thing about Simian Spirit Guide and even Mox Opal, which got banned after Bridge (for Urza's sins).
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

I should add that I don't *want* Bauble banned, and I think it's ridiculous to even suggest. That being said, with WOTC's history of banning the old/easy/wrong card, it's absolutely on the table for yet another bad decision.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

People are honestly suggesting ban's on Swiftspear, instead of Lurrus.

Yes, lets ruin more decks, for the sake of pushing fundamentally (ie: changing the FUNDAMENTAL RULES OF THE GAME) flawed cards.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Call it spiteful, but why does there "need" to be artifact decks? That was literally the line I got for years when I wanted a UR control/Tempo deck. Why are any of us "owed" any kind of deck? What protections should artifact decks have that Snap Bolt decks never got? I don't mean this as antagonistic to you in any way, just in general observation to the discussion as a whole.
I am with you in that there should be a UR control/tempo deck, and there is. It just doesn't "deserve" to be T1. Without Bauble Artifact decks would've lost 8 of their core cards (ignoring the hits to decks like Shadow) and there is no turning back from there, unless they print Urza level cards in the next sets. And knowing WotC they'll put it in Green and call it a successful endeavor.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
@Tzoulis - if Bridge from Below were legal right now, it would literally only be used in someone's trade binder to trade away the four $5 cards for four $0.50 Narset, Parter of Veils because well, the latter is actually used somewhere. "It was bound to break somewhere down the line. May as well ban it now." You could say the same thing about Simian Spirit Guide and even Mox Opal, which got banned after Bridge (for Urza's sins).
Thing is, Bridge was never allowed to exist with Carrior Feeder/Altar sans Hogaak, and that deck would definitely would be played a lot. It wouldn't be Tier 0 like with Hogaak, but you had plenty of cards to abuse it. Especially now with Thassa's Oracle, chances are it'd be a legit competitive deck.

I'll disagree that Opal died for Urza's sins, it died because WotC needed to show strength and said %$#% it, Opal, Urza and Oko in the same deck, ban them both. If they wanted to do it properly, they'd first ban Oko and then see what's up with the metagame. If they wanted to ban 2 cards to further weaken Oko-Urza decks, Emry was the correct target. She's the one enabling all these grindy Uro-Urza decks (along with the Green cards). Plus, Emry is a central combo piece for Breach/Ascendancy decks. Leaving Opal, but not Emry you'd have a very much weakened and susceptible to artifact hate Urza Archetype (Simic/Dimir/whatever Control-Midrange variants, Prison Style and Paradoxical Outcome) along with Affinity and Scales (and with Ozolith, might've been even T1).

(If I come as rather aggressive atm, it is because I've lost the first match in the Standard Challenge in Arena 3 times in a row, with the shuffler giving me only 2 or less or 6 or more lands, so I'm a bit tilted)

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
People are honestly suggesting ban's on Swiftspear, instead of Lurrus.

Yes, lets ruin more decks, for the sake of pushing fundamentally (ie: changing the FUNDAMENTAL RULES OF THE GAME) flawed cards.
You have to be kidding me. Monastery Swiftspear? I mean, I hate Burn much more than the next guy, but Monastery Swiftspear?

(I mean, I guess I can kind of see it because in Red Prowess, it can get pretty big. But that's attacking over at least 2-3 turns and casting spells. Kiln Fiend can easily kill in 1 turn, granted there is no blocker and you have Lava Dart(s) and other spells.)

*I don't understand people. I mean, Lurrus is a fun toy. Since I play in paper, I will never get to play the card. I wish I could. But still, I'm not going to say that other cards should get banned for this card. It's not good for format health, nor to set precedents (which ktkenshinx already showed above) on bannings.

**A long time ago, I did a comparison with Street Wraith, Gitaxian Probe, Mishra's Bauble, and Edge of Autumn. At the time, Mishra's Bauble was the weakest of them (for a Combo player) because you could not cycle it the turn you were trying to go off. Cards like Emry and Lurrus BROKE Bauble. What if WotC printed a card that said, "at the beginning of your upkeep, you may return a 5 mana creature to your hand, discard it if it is in your hand at EoT"? That would be good with Street Wraith. Does it mean that Street Wraith was busted all along? I don't think so, but I will say this - my analysis, right or wrong, at the time, was that Street Wraith was the most powerful of the 4, with Probe coming in second.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
Some observations.

Right now, there is a Tier 1 Bolt-Snap-Bolt tempo deck. Sprite Dragon and Lurrus have made Delver a powerhouse. You should enjoy it, if you like those kind of decks. Some say, ban Bauble so this deck makes it into Tier 1. (Although I believe Sprite Dragon with FoN to be the real deal and a real deck, even with no Bauble or Lurrus).
This is the equivalent of saying Delver was an awesome deck when Treasure Cruise was legal. Of course it is when its propped up by degenerate broken stuff that will absolutely be banned. :laugh:

Edit: Side note about Sprite Dragon, it's not going to make Delver viable because it suffers the same problems as Brineborn Cutthroat, Pteramander, Young Pyromancer, and any other cute UR tempo card that non-bos with Thing in the Ice: it dies. Often before providing meaningful value. So without a recursion engine to repeatedly provide threats in a deck that often plays less than a dozen threats, or beefing them up with Bloo-like cards (Mutagenic, Become Immense, TBR), you're the same bad Delver deck that has been trying to be relevant since Probe was banned.
Bauble has been a part in broken decks more times in the past. And it's broken Emry and Lurrus now. Emry may seem like a problem for us Modern players, but from WOTC's point of view, they will probably print more Emries by now. So, if Emry gets banned, the second Emry is to be banned also. Well, the second kind of Emry now, is Lurrus.
It's almost like the engines which allow Bauble to be abused and repeatedly cast over and over and over are actually the problem. And not an innocuous, do-nothing cantrip artifact.

Lastly, Bauble being the correct ban, and Bauble being the most likely action WOTC takes are two very, very, very different things. WOTC has demonstrated a long history of making bad ban choices. Some have been rectified, while a lot of them have not. Their fundamental lack of understanding of the format, as well as financial and business interests often guide them to make very wrong decisions for the health and stability of formats.

Banning Bauble solves nothing. It just allows the engines which abuse it to continue to exist, abusing the next best thing. Then the next best thing gets banned, and they move on, and on, and on. Until finally the engine, which is broken and causing all these other bans, finally gets taken out itself.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

If people honestly don't see the issue with Lurrus, they need to go have a good think.

How many bans will it take before they hit it?
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
Right now, there is a Tier 1 Bolt-Snap-Bolt tempo deck. Sprite Dragon and Lurrus have made Delver a powerhouse. You should enjoy it, if you like those kind of decks.
Sprite Dragon is very overpowered. I slammed it into my deck the moment it was spoiled.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

A 2 mana 1/1 that depends on other spells being cast. Nah, I'm not going to accept that is overpowered.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
A 2 mana 1/1 that depends on other spells being cast. Nah, I'm not going to accept that is overpowered.
After seeing myself underrate this card initially and then seeing it in play in various formats, I also agree that the card is very strong. It is probably weakest in Modern of all the formats (and that's what we are here), but it's definitely playable in Modern. Compare to the 1/3 Prowess haste flier; much better for the counters to be permanent.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

I mean, we also had Brineborn, and Pteramamder before. I'll believe it when I see it.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

does traverse shadow die if bauble is banned? or does it just max out on nihil spellbombs or something? it's bad enough my affinity deck is useless. i really don't want to have to upgrade my traverse deck into jund.

i think it's ridiculous if bauble gets banned, but at this point who knows what they'll do.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

To be fair I know a lot of Legacy newbies posting threads like "what can we do about Force of Will?".
Obviously they don't understand that counterspelling something is good, not the equivalent of killing your granny, that force is a bad but necessary card (nobody wants to 1-2 themselves 4 times a game). I see bans suggested for all sorts- swiftspear is nonsensical but you may just have a newbie who has been flattened by it.

I must admit I had no problem with banning Bridge, and would have banned it and Hoogy at the same time, because Dredge just kept coming back. GGT is the sort of card that should be legal, Bridge less so. That said when Opal got it I would rather have unbanned Chrome mox so that we ALL get fast mana, not just mono-brown decks (the unbanning of which would have made me far more open to unbanning Twin and a couple of others). Mox would have dramatically improved hatebear decks - 1st turn Suppression Fields and Thalia may well have kept decks like Tron in check as hatebears used to in the early days before they became ludicrously obsolete. I was not against banning Opal as it was, but if we all had fast mana Opal would be free.

On this ban I have drawn up a short list
Here it is
Cat

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
To be fair I know a lot of Legacy newbies posting threads like "what can we do about Force of Will?".
Obviously they don't understand that counterspelling something is good, not the equivalent of killing your granny, that force is a bad but necessary card (nobody wants to 1-2 themselves 4 times a game). I see bans suggested for all sorts- swiftspear is nonsensical but you may just have a newbie who has been flattened by it.

I must admit I had no problem with banning Bridge, and would have banned it and Hoogy at the same time, because Dredge just kept coming back. GGT is the sort of card that should be legal, Bridge less so. That said when Opal got it I would rather have unbanned Chrome mox so that we ALL get fast mana, not just mono-brown decks (the unbanning of which would have made me far more open to unbanning Twin and a couple of others). Mox would have dramatically improved hatebear decks - 1st turn Suppression Fields and Thalia may well have kept decks like Tron in check as hatebears used to in the early days before they became ludicrously obsolete. I was not against banning Opal as it was, but if we all had fast mana Opal would be free.

On this ban I have drawn up a short list
Here it is
Cat
WotC can't unban Golgari Grave-Troll. There's too many new cards that pushed it, mostly Cathartic Reunion, Creeping Chill, and Ox of Agonas. Dredge would definitely be too strong. I played Golgari Grave-Troll Dredge. It gave me my 2nd highest win percentage with any Modern deck, except Eye of Ugin Eldrazi (78% to 82%) I didn't even win as often with Hogaak, mostly because people metagamed harder and it was tough to win more than 50% of the mirrors. Bridge from Below has never been played in Modern Dredge. The only deck some are scared of is Crab Vine. Even with Looting gone, because of all of the new toys, GGT would be too strong. I was kind of upset that the new cards got it banned, but at least Dredge is still viable, rather than some odd deck (Tier 3 or so) being available. I played those decks with GGT a few times and they were bad. They just mostly had the element of surprise and a strong pilot.

Dredge - here's a 2018 list by Dredge master Sodeq → https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20843&d=337987&f=MO
Crab Vine - here's a list of a deck that may play Bridge, from 2020 since the version before Hogaak came out was just a flash in the pan and never very good. This is why many believe that Bridge is okay. → https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24303&d=369694&f=MO
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
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Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

@Ed06288

If Bauble get banned. Maybe try a full playset of Architects of Will? Not as fast as bauble, but they still add an artifact to the yard for delirium.

About Affinity. I've been seeing people experiment with non-opal lists. And here is one that is mildly succesful. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/m ... 0721#paper
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@FoodChainGoblins

Lurrus is certainly ban worthy, but why also Yorion? Hey, we're just starting on the fun here. Don't ban our companion too soon. My copy isn't even going to be shipped by scg until may 15. :grin:

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@cfusionpm

I've also see veil in Through the Breach decks. Veil makes them harder to stop with Dovin's Veto, so I use Teeg as one more way to delay emrakul coming out.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
WotC can't unban Golgari Grave-Troll. There's too many new cards that pushed it, mostly Cathartic Reunion, Creeping Chill, and Ox of Agonas. Dredge would definitely be too strong. I played Golgari Grave-Troll Dredge. It gave me my 2nd highest win percentage with any Modern deck, except Eye of Ugin Eldrazi (78% to 82%) I didn't even win as often with Hogaak, mostly because people metagamed harder and it was tough to win more than 50% of the mirrors. Bridge from Below has never been played in Modern Dredge. The only deck some are scared of is Crab Vine. Even with Looting gone, because of all of the new toys, GGT would be too strong. I was kind of upset that the new cards got it banned, but at least Dredge is still viable, rather than some odd deck (Tier 3 or so) being available. I played those decks with GGT a few times and they were bad. They just mostly had the element of surprise and a strong pilot.
Yeah, lets be clear here that GGT is not broken, nor is it what broke Dredge. Specifically it was a combination of back to back Insolent Neonate, Prized Amalgam, and most importantly, Cathartic Reunion. A mediocre enabler, an absolutely bonkers enabler, and the beefiest payoff the deck has. It wasn't broken again until Creeping Chill. But again, it's NEW CARDS that frequently break decks, and instead of banning the cards causing the problem, they ban the old cards for (insert reason).

GGT is not what made Dredge good. New cards made Dredge good, and GGT was the sacrificial lamb because they didn't want to ban a card (or cards) that can potentially sell packs.

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Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

If Mishra's Bauble or Monastery Swiftspear get banned I may finally quit playing Modern all together. I'm not one for hyperbole and I also really like Modern. I just don't enjoy switching decks every 4 months, I play non rotating formats for a reason. Getting to experiment and become expert with a deck is something special about non rotating formats and my personal favorite aspect.

The past 12 months have been rough on my decks and I don't play any tier 1 decks. First I was on Mardu Pyromancer, then with the Looting ban I moved to Mardu Shadow. While Mardu DS was a strong deck, I didn't really enjoy it and so I started experimenting with Mono Red Prowess. Mono Red Prowess is still one of my favorite Modern decks and I think it has a lot of potential for development. The fact that we are banning a deck as "fair" as Prowess really highlights the need for a "Mission Statement" for Modern.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

And I thought the ban suggestion for Swiftspear was a joke.
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

What I meant was a big dredger should not be the problem to be banned, but the pay offs often are. All the new dredge toys were issues. I was speaking about types of cards- hgo after chill, amalgam, bridge as needed rather than the dredge cards themselves.

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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago

Yeah, lets be clear here that GGT is not broken, nor is it what broke Dredge. Specifically it was a combination of back to back Insolent Neonate, Prized Amalgam, and most importantly, Cathartic Reunion. A mediocre enabler, an absolutely bonkers enabler, and the beefiest payoff the deck has. It wasn't broken again until Creeping Chill. But again, it's NEW CARDS that frequently break decks, and instead of banning the cards causing the problem, they ban the old cards for (insert reason).

GGT is not what made Dredge good. New cards made Dredge good, and GGT was the sacrificial lamb because they didn't want to ban a card (or cards) that can potentially sell packs.
First of all, "GGT is not broken" is a massive understatement for the power level of the card. The card IS a pushed design that requires only minimal support to be able to be broken. Anyway, moving forward as I don't wanna discuss GGT

I do want to discuss the idea that "new cards" break decks, and that this is a bad thing somehow. It stands to reason that new cards will break older decks, because new cards have different/diverse designs. They are also (and that's a good thing in my opinion) NOT designed with old cards in mind, because new cars should primarily work in their standard and limited environments.

The fact that new cards break old decks doesn't necessarily mean that the new cards are the broken ones. Older cards like KCI for example are definitely broken and they just wait for the right enablers. That doesn't make the enablers the problem.

Of course, it is different for Modern Horizons, which supposedly was designed FOR Modern. In that case, they SHOULD had designed with Modern in mind (and for many of the cards they did) and not make mistakes like Hogaak. BUT, when it comes to standard sets, it's problematic to ALWAYS blame the new cards.

Finally the argument that they didn't want to ban a card that sells packs when you bring as an example dredge and Cathartic Reunion, a common with so many versions already, just doesn't hold up..
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