[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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TheAnnihilator
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Post by TheAnnihilator » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
recent modern leagues seem alright
Too bad they're engineered to look diverse. Events are the only really trustworthy data, sadly.
Modern:
GU Amulet Titan
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control

Check out my youtube channel, where I play a league a week: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCna_3LXtNgQ7q-0lnzP3mPg

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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

TheAnnihilator wrote:
1 year ago
Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
recent modern leagues seem alright
Too bad they're engineered to look diverse. Events are the only really trustworthy data, sadly.
this should really be common knowledge now. Every time I see a faeries list in the 5-0 challenges Im often looking to see new tech, but I am also ultimately pissed at wizards for curating the experience to try and "shut me and my kind of magic player up" while also reducing the data points that Faeries players need, because we are mostly a data and metagame analysis rewarding deck that picks its openings to attack through applied theory and practice.

I cant tell you how many times I have trained my brain to look at the first two lands in play and identify the deck I might be facing to inform my plays when I dont have discard. Modern felt like the format where the behind the scenes work with the deck mattered; and now nothing feels like it does, again!

I dont even care about a ban at this point, I want unbans and the data to play effectively again

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

ThatStoryTeller wrote:
1 year ago
I dont even care about a ban at this point, I want unbans and the data to play effectively again
That's where I have arrived. If they wont clean house, and ban out anything that is just clearly out of line, then simply unban it all and let people play what they want, while also giving us back the MTGO data that allows for proper analysis.
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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

Power creep is a problem, but that disregards card design philosophy and how it impacts the flow of games.

I say this since Wizards loves: etbs on creatures, planeswalkers being pushed while also not having to fear efficient counterplay (since they resolve activated abilities even if killed as response to activating ability), lands being pushed at the expense of land destruction being phased out of the game, one sided lock effects without drawback to their controllers, weak counter and discard magic in Standard when the most efficient plays happen on the stack rather than the battlefield, improving card selection at the expense of counterplay, improving graveyard abuse but not the ways to keep it in check, and altering legendary rules that only benefitted planeswalkers when they are difficult to answer to begin with

Simply put, the game isn't just experiencing power creep. We are now in a proactive stack oriented game that lacks counterplay.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Feels relevant.


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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
I hate companions since they were spotted. Its a commander mechanic pushed into constructed through Standard! Not everyone likes Commander. I think its a stupid format but because it is their only cash cow at the moment they thought: "Hey lets turn every format into Commander that will be fun and will sell lots of packs!". Thanks a lot Maro. I am %$#% done with you since last year. Can you please leave already.
Trying to go back a couple of pages and see this.
Companions aren't a commander inspired mechanic thrown into Standard. No siree, Wizards learned from Konami. In Yugioh, they have something called an Extra Deck, which are cards that start in the game outside of your hand but can be played when you fulfill a condition or resolve effects. Just so happens companions are visible with deck building constraints unlike Extradeck since they are 15 facedown cards that don't always affect the entire deck construction.

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cfusionpm
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Companions sound suspiciously like having a single creature you always have access to that creates a deck building restriction based on the attributes of that creature. Where have I seen that before...? :thinking:

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I'm sure there are many sources of 'inspiration' for Companion.

If 2 of those sources are not EDH and Pokemon, I'll eat my hat.
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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
I'm sure there are many sources of 'inspiration' for Companion.

If 2 of those sources are not EDH and Pokemon, I'll eat my hat.
What did Pokemon do exactly apart from Prize cards being set face down st athe beginning of a game? Don't follow that card game

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Companions sound suspiciously like having a single creature you always have access to that creates a deck building restriction based on the attributes of that creature. Where have I seen that before...? :thinking:
Apart from companions not returning to a command zone as a difference? I would say Wizards might have looked into Yugioh Duel Links app, which is different than paper Yugioh. In the app, they have access to character abilities that a player end up usimg automatically or manually depending on abilities in question. Just so happens some of them actually require deck restrictions, like one ability giving favorable coin flip results but you must have at least 7 cards with different names that coin flip. I guess it's comparatively to hearthstone?

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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

I think idSurge means more Pokemon the franchise, not Pokemon the TCG.

I also think that there's less mystery to Companion's design origin than we think. They did an article that touches on the design philosophy behind Companion: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-04-07
Basically, they wanted to play around with the idea of "pregame cards" and deck building constraints. They don't outright state what their initial inspiration was or if they had multiple influences, but based on the article, Commander was almost definitely the biggest inspiration.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Yes, mechanically its EDH.

Top Down/Thematically? You have your pet, your companion, you have this 1 unique card in your deck that is representative of that, and the lore around bonders would be support it.
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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Yes, mechanically its EDH.

Top Down/Thematically? You have your pet, your companion, you have this 1 unique card in your deck that is representative of that, and the lore around bonders would be support it.
Ok, that makes more. I've seen people compare Ikoria to Monster Hunter and Attack on Titan, it never clicked me the idea of Pokemon. Now that I think of it, some of the cards gave me Jurassic Park vibes with that guy and his raptor.

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

Albegas wrote:
1 year ago
I think idSurge means more Pokemon the franchise, not Pokemon the TCG.

I also think that there's less mystery to Companion's design origin than we think. They did an article that touches on the design philosophy behind Companion: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-04-07
Basically, they wanted to play around with the idea of "pregame cards" and deck building constraints. They don't outright state what their initial inspiration was or if they had multiple influences, but based on the article, Commander was almost definitely the biggest inspiration.
Ok, I've ignored mothership for years, thanks for link. Seeing the bit about Mutate does give Pokemon vibes with how evolution was handled with the Pokemon TCG. The part making it from sharing types to any non human does give it Yugioh vibes with how some extra deck cards being somewhat generic.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

So are Companions just the new "Planeswalkers" of Magic? IE: something new we now have to live with, and have to begrudgingly accept that they fundamentally shift the paradigm of building and playing decks from now on? Or are they massive design mistakes that unnecessarily push new cards and mechanics in broken ways for non-rotating formats due to the laughably meaningless "deckbuilding restrictions" placed on them? At what point will their prominence and dominance be a problem? Oko levels? Or do we just have to accept that as the new norm and yet another evolution of the game that has seen a dozen different massive evolutions over the past two years?

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

Companions would have been fine : if they were designed solely as janky gimmicks, if there was ways to get rid of them before opponents can even cast them, and if the opponent was penalized by drawing one less card for having a companion.
This is the kind of thing why in EDH the original partners are busted compared to the newer partner with. Even then partners allow a player to begin the game with 2 cards part from the hand compared to the other legendaries which only appear on their own.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
I am baffled by this discussion. People that imply companions are the new P/W have not read Ikoria's lore at all, do not read Maro at all, listen to all of those SCG paywall articles, or all of them(probably the last one)

Link: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-04-02

The bonders can only exist in Ikoria. It's pretty clear here(see: above link). Everybody is wrong in assuming they can be an evergreen mechanic like P/W. They could return, but only in an Ikoria set. All of those SCG writers either don't know this(highly doubt it), or they won't tell this, because if so, this can't sell articles. Really dissapointing.
PS: Ikoria's lore is absolutely fantastic.

So then we can only assume that these destructive and warping cards will just be banned and we move on? Frankly, I'm fine with that. If I want to play Commander, I'll play Commander.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

There will be a Return to Ikoria. There will be Commander products. There will be Modern Horizon's, and Core sets.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Brave to assume I pay people to shill. ;)
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I think its a question of, if you DONT print more, and X number are the only competitive options, and you DONT ban them, then you limit diversity because by appearances right now, yes they are that impactful.

I'd rather have dozens, so we can get some interesting ones for every play style (RIP my little useless Otter) instead of only a few that slot almost freely into Burn or Value Control.

Ideally, they all eat an Errata or Ban. Failing that, they better become just another card type, because they are busted on a theory/mechanical level.
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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

I'd hate it if many companions were printed so every strategy could play one. The repetitiveness would be nauseating.

Btw I think Uro is not completely unlike companions in that it makes games extremely stale and repetitive: the first few times, it was kinda fun trying to grind out an active Uro with Into the Story, Snaps, Gearhulk etc etc. And it works too. But I've probably played 150 games by now that boil down to me playing my deck on all fiddles while the only thing opp does is cast an Uro every or every second turn which is a clean 2-for-0 plus 3 life every time. And a topdecked Uro is "gain 6 life, draw 2 cards, create a 6/6 creature that can be cast from gy ad infinitum". It's like a 2-color Ultimatum that has to be countered 2 times, has a flexible cmc and pseudo-infinite flash-back.

I feel more and more like Uro is a bigger problem than Oko was, and the only reason it's not as opressive is a) a lack of large events and b) its more taxing color requirements which make it harder to splash.

Power level wise I feel like Uro is at least as good as Oko, if not better.

PS: Just to be clear: imo Uro should be banned instantly along with Lurrus.

One last point: before these Simic Uro decks emerged, I argued a couple times with somebody wether Coatl decks would still be viable If Adtrolabe was banned. My argument was Uro decks didn't need Astrolabe, which was on the one hand an argument that Astrolabe might as well be axed without killing an archetype, but also that Astrolabe wasn't actually the problem card, but that it was actually Uro.

Well, these Simic Uro decks have put that argument to rest.

I also object to anybody calling the deck Simic Reclamation. The deck lives and dies exclusively at the hands of Uro. The rest is a mediocre control shell with no removal that auto-folds to any aggressive strategy as well as big mana (and isn't great in control mirrors either. If it wasn't for Uro, I honestly don't think I'd have lost a significant amount of games, let alone matches).

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
I think its a question of, if you DONT print more, and X number are the only competitive options, and you DONT ban them, then you limit diversity because by appearances right now, yes they are that impactful.

I'd rather have dozens, so we can get some interesting ones for every play style (RIP my little useless Otter) instead of only a few that slot almost freely into Burn or Value Control.

Ideally, they all eat an Errata or Ban. Failing that, they better become just another card type, because they are busted on a theory/mechanical level.
I see this after pulling the B/R companion that screams "Lightning Bolt!!!!!!!!!!!" in Arena. Wizards clearly didn't test any of the companions for formats not named Standard or limited.

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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

blkdemonight wrote:
1 year ago
I see this after pulling the B/R companion that screams "Lightning Bolt!!!!!!!!!!!" in Arena. Wizards clearly didn't test any of the companions for formats not named Standard or limited.
I don't think that Sam Black tweet gets enough attention. If I am wrong, someone please show me, but if what I remember is correct from what was posted a few pages back, they don't even test for Standard, at least not in the way we want them to. Someone posted some tweets from his feed, and it sounded an awful lot like they now test new sets with the assumption that they don't need to test for broken cards in Standard because they can just ban those if need be. If that really is true, they now work under the assumption that it's OK to ban cards in their lone rotating format. Never mind us jaded Modern players, that should terrify anyone playing Standard that isn't privy to a sponsor because they've just become YGO players

Also God help us if Rosewater actually thinks that formats with larger card pools are LESS capable of breaking cards. Does he not remember Treasure Cruise? Or any of the other examples any poster can think of?

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Albegas wrote:
1 year ago
blkdemonight wrote:
1 year ago
I see this after pulling the B/R companion that screams "Lightning Bolt!!!!!!!!!!!" in Arena. Wizards clearly didn't test any of the companions for formats not named Standard or limited.
I don't think that Sam Black tweet gets enough attention. If I am wrong, someone please show me, but if what I remember is correct from what was posted a few pages back, they don't even test for Standard, at least not in the way we want them to. Someone posted some tweets from his feed, and it sounded an awful lot like they now test new sets with the assumption that they don't need to test for broken cards in Standard because they can just ban those if need be. If that really is true, they now work under the assumption that it's OK to ban cards in their lone rotating format. Never mind us jaded Modern players, that should terrify anyone playing Standard that isn't privy to a sponsor because they've just become YGO players

Also God help us if Rosewater actually thinks that formats with larger card pools are LESS capable of breaking cards. Does he not remember Treasure Cruise? Or any of the other examples any poster can think of?
I don't think it's so much as he doesn't realize it, he doesn't want to think about it. If something arises that can't be absorbed in other formats, they can always ban something.

I hope they realize that Modern is still a cash cow and money can definitely still be made here. I would suggest some unbans, probably 2-3 bans, and a well thought out Modern Horizons 2 that includes fetchlands from Zendikar/MM17. I am currently about to sell all the extra copies I have in hopes that they do get it right.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I don't think it's so much as he doesn't realize it, he doesn't want to think about it. If something arises that can't be absorbed in other formats, they can always ban something.

I hope they realize that Modern is still a cash cow and money can definitely still be made here. I would suggest some unbans, probably 2-3 bans, and a well thought out Modern Horizons 2 that includes fetchlands from Zendikar/MM17. I am currently about to sell all the extra copies I have in hopes that they do get it right.
You are probably right about him just not wanting to think about it. I wish I had the proper quote, but I distinctly remember that Eldrazi winter was caused by them ignoring Modern in favor of a better Standard, and I'm actually OK with them not caring about non-rotating formats so long as Standard is fun. What bugs me is that they continue to have multiple Standard bans after implementing the very team that was supposed to stop them, and rather than own up to those mistakes, they seem to now be doubling down on what can only be called a flawed methodology. I really want to play paper Modern after the COVID-19 stuff dies down, but I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Do I sell my two Misty copies and my Uro to build that neat Grixis Delver deck, or is Bant Snow actually less busted, i.e. I should buy more Misty copies and Uros so that I can compete in paper? I don't think I've ever felt so indecisive about what I should do in terms of MtG finance, and it's basically because I have no good data to work off of to make those decisions.

Sorry, I know that the above paragraph is about half discussion material and half rant, but it really is frustrating to want to invest in Modern at the same time that the people who could alleviate our concerns seem to almost be going out of their way to agitate them.

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