[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
The competitive format of now and of the future is pioneer. The only reason they probably care about modern, is MH2, which will make them the last quick buck out of it.
Not printing a card because modern is the easiest format to break out of them all is wrong. Banning baubles and opals of the world is what lets them print future lurruses. I think at this point, this is the right thing to do.
If you believe other formats have reason to exist, and that with that should have distinct identity, this is unquestionably the wrong approach, especially when one considers the fact Wizard's appears to have forgotten that power creep is the single most threatening thing to the long term life of the game.

When Standard cards warp eternal formats, you BAN THE STANDARD CARDS.

I find it extremely suspect that you can swing from 'Modern is the best it has ever been' to 'Modern is not salvageable, forget it and move on' within days, but it seems to align with whenever you have found the deck that fits what you want to be doing and is well positioned.

Companion is fundamentally flawed, when viewed within the context of ALL OF THE CARDS PRINTED BEFORE IT.

That is all. Thats it. Argue how it is not and we can have a discussion, but I have yet to see anyone that is not an absolute shill, try and push this mechanically beneficial for the game.
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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
I'm not being snarky, I'm just curious if there was a boogeyman that people wanted banned like now. Because ever since I started playing magic again, a couple of years ago, people have moved from one ban uproar to the next. Some being obvious while others seem like one person just being sour over a card because he got whooped by it a few too many times.
I've been lurking around MTGS since sometime between Pod's ban and Twin's ban, and from what I remember, you had fewer "boogeyman" arguments back then. A lot of that, IMO, stems from the fact that we had near-perfect meta game data. Discussion was more data driven and thus had less hyperbole because sweeping claims like "Deck X is destroying the meta!" could be proven/disproven with data. Thus discussion shifted more towards "Is this deck a T4 violator?", "Is this new deck going to do well/dominate?", etc. and less towards.

The current attitude is a build-up of years of decisions and mistakes that WotC have made. They took away the data, creating uncertainty in a deck's dominance barring clear cut contenders like Oko and Hogaath, which hurt both our ability to accurate gauge a deck's strength and our ability to confidently invest in decks. They pushed threats without pushing answers, resulting in the struggling and decline of traditional midrange and control decks as well as the largest number of bans in Standard since Cawblade. And now, because of their decision to push the power level of Standard as a whole and the clear intent of pushing poorly tested threats, non-rotating formats that are used to small, gradual changes are seeing cards that are spiking the power levels of decks in non-rotating formats, and that lack of meta data means we don't know if these decks are the new norm forcing us to drop potentially hundreds every time a set comes out or if we can just wait for those cards to eat a ban hammer, taking that uncertainty dwelling in a lot of players and causing it to boil over.

So this ban mania and the general vitriol towards WotC is the product of years, literally years, of decisions and mistakes made by Wizards. This is not made better by WotC denying claims that they're doing anything wrong as of late and the general fact that WotC uses platforms of communication that aren't conducive to meaningful discussion

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Great post Albegas. Without data, you cannot have any kind of meaningful discussion, and so it all devolves into 'feelings' and shouting.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Prior to Eldrazi, Pod was hit. It was seen as too good, and the excuse at the time was that it limited design space.

The interesting thing is how many 'not pod' cards they have printed.

If you looked at Modern at that time, with a long enough lens, you would see that they hit the 'best deck' before the pro tour.

Sometimes it killed decks, sometimes it didn't.

Ban Mania was not like it is now.
The Birthing Pod decks were played by the best Pro Players and minds in the game during those times. In my opinion, Pod decks didn't do better than Twin, Affinity, or BGx decks during several years prior to the printing of Siege Rhino. There may have been small periods when Pod did better, but most of that was due to the pilots, including LSV, Jacob Wilson, Seth Manfield, and Josh McClain.

What pushed Pod over the edge was the printing of Siege Rhino. The card made Pod too consistent in getting essentially turn 4 wins, while being able to still tutor up the silver bullets that they needed to slow the opponent. The metagame at the time was basically UR Treasure Cruise Delver and the Abzan Pod deck beat it. It had the tools to beat a deck with Treasure Cruise, which all of us knew was on borrowed time. The Pod deck itself was never super strong against Ramp decks or Combo decks. I have long time friends who play Tron who rarely had a problem with Pod or even BGx with Deathrite Shaman. They literally don't see why those decks should have eaten bans, except one of them admits that DRS became too prevalent in almost every deck. I feel that WotC figured if they're going to ban Treasure Cruise, they have to ban Dig Through Time as well since it is a super similar card in power level (probably is better, although it's tougher for someone like myself to believe that). Then they had to ban the deck that was beating Treasure Cruise Delver or else, it was probably going to beat the whole remaining meta at the time. What Pod did was slaughter Burn, small Aggro decks, and anything else Midrange. Those decks were not viable at Tier 1 at the time, although I personally think that Affinity was still viable.

I enjoyed playing against Pod players. I played the deck a little bit, mostly the Kiki Pod version or the Abzan version when it had Deathrite Shaman as a mana dork. But it was always awesome to see how Pod players would react to the stuff I was trying to do. I was the beatdown with most of my decks because they were quicker combo decks. Rarely did I have to worry about Pod comboing. But with Chord of Calling remaining, Eldritch Evolution and Collected Company seeing print, and to a lesser extent, Finale of Devastation being printed and Eladamri's Call being in MH, I feel like these are still a viable strategy, just not quite Tier 1.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

When Legacy devolves into 4C snow, is that a distinct identity? When Vintage immediately is playing standard cards (WAR Walkers, Lurrus) is that supposed to be a positive?

Modern absolutely still has an identity, despite it being eroded by terrible designs for 2 years.

Dredge, Burn, Humans, Bloom, AdNaus, Infect, Tron, heck even Jund still see's play for those desperate hold outs.

Modern absolutely still has its identity, you do not sacrifice that because of short sighted design mistakes.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
The Birthing Pod decks were played by the best Pro Players and minds in the game during those times. In my opinion, Pod decks didn't do better than Twin, Affinity, or BGx decks during several years prior to the printing of Siege Rhino. There may have been small periods when Pod did better, but most of that was due to the pilots, including LSV, Jacob Wilson, Seth Manfield, and Josh McClain.
Yes, in hindsight, it was clear. Wizards would ban the perceived best deck for the Pro Tour or start of the yearly Modern season. Either weakening it, or killing it outright.

It doesnt mean those decks needed to be forced out, it simply was what Wizards did.
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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
It isnt hit as much. Modern is more easily breakable, because it has a variety of old mistake cards that can create easily bannable synergies.

About the numbers, its only logical. People have invested for 5 years in this format and when covid ends, the PTs will be modern(they were supposed to be on modern).

idSurge, all formats have distinct identities except modern. at least, std, draft, legacy, pioneer do.
Covid is not ending anytime soon. Even post worldwide lockdown paper tournaments will basically not exist as their attendence will be so low. I doubt 'modern season' and 'post covid modern pt' are what anybody is thinking about right now

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Paper Magic is dead until a vaccine is proven, and distributed across the world.

GL with that one.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
It isnt hit as much. Modern is more easily breakable, because it has a variety of old mistake cards that can create easily bannable synergies.

About the numbers, its only logical. People have invested for 5 years in this format and when covid ends, the PTs will be modern(they were supposed to be on modern).

idSurge, all formats have distinct identities except modern. at least, std, draft, legacy, pioneer do.
What's Pioneer's identity? The most powerful cards of the last year dominate? You've been told this multiple times now, but you still insist on presenting feelings and extremely limited datasets as facts.

Also, Pioneer is way more easily breakable and way more shallow than Modern, because it lacks some fundamental solutions and cards that older formats, but that doesn't stop you from saying otherwise.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
When Legacy devolves into 4C snow, is that a distinct identity? When Vintage immediately is playing standard cards (WAR Walkers, Lurrus) is that supposed to be a positive?
Yes...?
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Paper Magic is dead until a vaccine is proven, and distributed across the world.

GL with that one.
Or herd immunity is achieved, which should be at around the 4th quarter of 2020, possibly after a second wave of infections. At least in countries with successful measures in place.

Edit: 3rd to 4th Quarter
Last edited by Tzoulis 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Or herd immunity is achieved, which should be at around the 3rd quarter of 2020, possibly after a second wave of infections. At least in countries with successful measures in place.
You think so?? I find that impossibly unlikely based on anything I am reading, unless the hope that Summer temperature's wipe it out.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
You think so?? I find that impossibly unlikely based on anything I am reading, unless the hope that Summer temperature's wipe it out.
(Sorry meant 4th quarter, mixed them up, will edit this)

I mean, we certainly aren't going back to 2019 or 1k+ GPs in 2020, but (small) FNM's with plenty of increased personal hygiene measures, should probably start firing in late 2020.

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
You think so?? I find that impossibly unlikely based on anything I am reading, unless the hope that Summer temperature's wipe it out.
(Sorry meant 4th quarter, mixed them up, will edit this)

I mean, we certainly aren't going back to 2019 or 1k+ GPs in 2020, but (small) FNM's with plenty of increased personal hygiene measures, should probably start firing in late 2020.
There might be some but nothing internationally could happen for the next 18 months. Many countries have locked borders with no desire to open them for the next year

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
You think so?? I find that impossibly unlikely based on anything I am reading, unless the hope that Summer temperature's wipe it out.
(Sorry meant 4th quarter, mixed them up, will edit this)

I mean, we certainly aren't going back to 2019 or 1k+ GPs in 2020, but (small) FNM's with plenty of increased personal hygiene measures, should probably start firing in late 2020.
This sounds about right.

And I think your point with 3rd to 4th quarter stands; there are people in the U.S. right now doing rallies to get their "rights to go about public without face protection." More like their rights to potentially be exposed to a deadly virus, shaking my head. As far as I know, there will be a 2nd wave because of people like this. :unamused:
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Has modern ever been a format without things people didn't like or wanted banned??? It frustrates me to no end seeing the discussions of people who will never be satisfied.
Yes. Pre-Eldrazi, Pre-Twin Ban, probably Pre-Pod Ban. Modern in that era was the best format Wizards has probably ever had.
I wasn't playing Magic in that period, so forgive my lack of knowledge, but were decks like Affinity a problem during that period? Or Deathrite Shaman wasn't banned and being overpowered?

I'm not being snarky, I'm just curious if there was a boogeyman that people wanted banned like now. Because ever since I started playing magic again, a couple of years ago, people have moved from one ban uproar to the next. Some being obvious while others seem like one person just being sour over a card because he got whooped by it a few too many times.

I basically had an 18 year break from magic and I've honestly gotten pretty tired of the attitudes a lot of players have after getting back to it. There was a way more friendly attitude with Warhammer players (played it since '94). I don't know what it is about so many Magic players always having to "assert dominance", but is tiring as %$#%. I just want everybody to have fun really, and to play my tron lands :)

If I had more money to spend on cards, I'd have a couple more modern decks because I think it's fun, but oh well... some day maybe.
What chance does something like Jeskai control have these days at doing well at the fnm level? I remember it being the %$#% when I was getting back into magic.
I wouldn't say Affinity was a problem, but it was fairly decent. Of the original tier 1 decks in Modern, Affinity was the last to drop out of that status. In fact, during Eldrazi Winter Affinity was the only other deck to put up results (albeit, far fewer).

There have always been calls for bannings. One of Moderns biggest problems early on (and that problem is back now), is that it got a ton of early bans. Basically, any deck that was on top ate a ban. It created this player expectation of constantly banning things, and an outcry that all good cards were too good.

Bans encourage calls for more bans but runaway bans usually don't improve a format.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Albegas wrote:
1 year ago
I've been lurking around MTGS since sometime between Pod's ban and Twin's ban, and from what I remember, you had fewer "boogeyman" arguments back then. A lot of that, IMO, stems from the fact that we had near-perfect meta game data. Discussion was more data driven and thus had less hyperbole because sweeping claims like "Deck X is destroying the meta!" could be proven/disproven with data. Thus discussion shifted more towards "Is this deck a T4 violator?", "Is this new deck going to do well/dominate?", etc. and less towards.

The current attitude is a build-up of years of decisions and mistakes that WotC have made. They took away the data, creating uncertainty in a deck's dominance barring clear cut contenders like Oko and Hogaath, which hurt both our ability to accurate gauge a deck's strength and our ability to confidently invest in decks. They pushed threats without pushing answers, resulting in the struggling and decline of traditional midrange and control decks as well as the largest number of bans in Standard since Cawblade. And now, because of their decision to push the power level of Standard as a whole and the clear intent of pushing poorly tested threats, non-rotating formats that are used to small, gradual changes are seeing cards that are spiking the power levels of decks in non-rotating formats, and that lack of meta data means we don't know if these decks are the new norm forcing us to drop potentially hundreds every time a set comes out or if we can just wait for those cards to eat a ban hammer, taking that uncertainty dwelling in a lot of players and causing it to boil over.

So this ban mania and the general vitriol towards WotC is the product of years, literally years, of decisions and mistakes made by Wizards. This is not made better by WotC denying claims that they're doing anything wrong as of late and the general fact that WotC uses platforms of communication that aren't conducive to meaningful discussion
That makes a lot of sense. It's insane they're keeping so much data hidden and for what purpose.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

They erroneously believed it would prevent us from finding and breaking the top decks. That they could fool us by curating lists of 5-0 decks and get us to believe they had diverse and healthy formats.

They then gave us Arena, with a ladder, and people who are more than happy to grind on iterations of a deck for hours on end.

If we had data we would know just how flawed their designs are, and they don't care for that.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Now post the one where she says it was last good with Twin.
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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
plenty of increased personal hygiene measures
Let's be real, this will absolutely be the best thing to come out of this whole Corona thing lol!!! Why don't people shower or wear deodorant before going to fnm!!??

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Pioneer's identity is exactly this:
These are goals, not the identity of the format.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
This all results into Modern having no clear identity anymore, while it once had. Pioneer, on the other hand, has a well-expressed, well-formed identity. This probably results in Modern's playerbase/fanbase moving towards Pioneer, or other formats.
Which is what exactly? What was Modern's identity, what has been lost from it, and again what is Pioneer's identity?
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
In other news, most people on twitter say "Modern sucks". De-ja-vu. For the 1000th time, I guess, enjoy.
Aside that you went from "Modern's great" to "Modern sucks, Pioneer's the truth y'all" in a matter of weeks (I guess the moment you sold your paper collection), as @idSurge said, you forgot a tweet that asserted that the last time Modern was great was when Twin was legal.

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Let's be real, this will absolutely be the best thing to come out of this whole Corona thing lol!!! Why don't people shower or wear deodorant before going to fnm!!??
I mean, that wasn't my point, but I've only encountered it on 1 person in the 11~ years I've been playing magic.

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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

I have heard too many people well versed in this game allude to "you need to be playing a companion to not be far behind in your games of magic" and this brings up a point that I have had pop into my head,,,why are there so few? I'm sure the power level would have been easier absorbed if there were a wider range of companion requirements to choose from.

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Post by Mikefon » 1 year ago

10 hybrid companions one for each color pair, are not few. You have plenty to chose. It's just the mechanic itself that's broken as it is.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
I mean, that wasn't my point, but I've only encountered it on 1 person in the 11~ years I've been playing magic.
I want to play where you're playing hehe

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

I think Pioneer had a clear identity.
It was a place of Combat- The Gathering.
Fair v Fair, big green v big green-blue v black advantage v big red v tempo (us, ur) etc.


Now as it is explored it is looking more like Fair midrange v Combo. The identity is that you get to do things for a few turns, you lay creatures, planeswalkers your control spells are thought seize and critter kill generally. Typically my first and only event-fnm- I won by playing Wu Nykthos enchantments- pillow fort basically. Leylines, 0/5 enchantment lifegainers, gideon's intervention sphere of safety, d sphere 2cc enchantment critter removal, supreme verdict etc. You get the drift. Every deck wanted to play critters and beat. Obviously this was pre inverter, but it shows how limited the format is, it is combo v midrange v tempo now from the outside. It felt like standard greatest hits from the last five years.



Modern is much more difficult to pin down for me, and always has been. It never felt like any standard. It has been the combo format, the aggro format, the mana ramp format. I guess the overriding thing has been it has been the format where one player won't have the answers, where the opening hand decides the game. It is the threat format, perhaps.

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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
Modern's identity is probably that of busted synergies and who's going to do the most broken thing first of them two. And unfortunately, it's almost always in a busted state.

Pioneer's identity is probably that of a fairer, midrangey/aggroy format. It's still got a close to tier 1 ramp deck(UG ramp), a good control deck that's about to receive a new teferi in the summer?(UW control), and combos(mainly breach). It's also got a Splinter twin like deck(UB inverter) and an aggro-combo deck(Mono W).

1) Inverter is a deck that in Pioneer can keep it in check. Seize can also keep that in check. Modern needs more of the same.
Proving Twin made Modern worse as a format is a very difficult task, but I doubt the fact that Modern went down the drain after Twin's banning is is that irrelevant. Wizards could unban some cards, or they could do the following. Since players are currently see Modern MODO as a testing in view of Modern incoming GP's/Player's Tours, they can't unban anything. Or they can(but right now).
Post PT's, or now, Wizards should mass unban everything, except Gitaxian Probe, Hogaak, the Risen Necropolis, Eye of Ugin, Mental Misstep, Hypergenesis, Summer Bloom, Dark Depths,Treasure Cruise and see where the format goes from there. Minus a card, plus a card, doesn't matter if you say no Opal, no Summer Bloom, plus Oko. You probably get the point.

Or at least unban Splinter Twin. And ban Veil of summer(because it would be busted with it and/or astrolabe).
It's funny having busted Astrolabe & Uro decks and/or companion decks running around, and having splinter Twin banned.

2) Then, introduce a fixed Wasteland into the format. Sure, there will be bannings. But we will see where this goes.


3) Then, add an identity into Modern, just like Pioneer's identity(the format that lets you expand your collection from Std).

Modern needs it's own Inverter. That's why Pioneer is posed to be a better format, it's already got it's Twin.

Hey idSurge, cfusionpm

I posted that video a few pages back, people dont want to have the discussion because its led to heated argument after heated argument. However I agree with most of your ideas... maybe push field of ruin up the power creep chain to cost 1 to activate instead of wasteland imo.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

I am glad I am not missing out on anything. Companions will be banned before Corona crisis is resolved and we can play paper magic again. This will have staff consequences. After last year and now this I can't imagine some people won't lose their job. All my Modern decks just got invalidates overnight due to companions and I refuse to play Commander in constructed

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

recent modern leagues seem alright

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