[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

Aazadan
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
That's every 3rd card in a deck that managed to remain competitive. Most of them are extremely expensive too: Kroxa is $20, Pyromancer $10, Trophy $13, Wrenn $55, thats $260 in the space of two years.
Non rotating doesn't mean the deck remains competitive without updates. It means the cards themselves remain in the format.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/de ... odern-jund

That entire modern deck from 2015 can still be played (except for the DRS in some lists). It did not rotate from the format. Metagame evolution and set rotations are not the same thing. What you are arguing is that the metagame should never change. That's never going to happen, and that's not going to happen in any format.

Check the lists in those links. 2012 to 2014 had a 30 card change in Jund and I don't remember it being called a rotation then, rather just expected updates.

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

Let me clarify: you just said a deck having a 30 card change is not a rotation.

I'll remove myself from this argument, it's clearly not worth having.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Has modern ever been a format without things people didn't like or wanted banned??? It frustrates me to no end seeing the discussions of people who will never be satisfied.
Yes. Pre-Eldrazi, Pre-Twin Ban, probably Pre-Pod Ban. Modern in that era was the best format Wizards has probably ever had.
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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

Amalgam wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Most of us do play other formats.
There are very few paper Modern players left, because there are very few people who enjoy pissing money away, which is what Modern is. It is like a boat, gives you the best two days of your life, the day you buy it and the day you sell the sod. Modern is the Mtg equivalent.
Modern has been good at times, for sure.
I don't know why a few posters keep mentioning it's just modern with an issue. Its every single format in the game right now due to wizards incompetence. Legacy and vintage are getting changed every 3 months just like modern, it's that bad right.
Magic in general is in a super rough spot right now both digital and paper. If wizards isnt careful with what corona is doing to the world currently, magic could blow up in their face.
Others and I have made this point before and it's critical we remember it. It is very easy, especially in this State of Modern thread, to claim this is a Modern-specific problem. We can complain about Modern's virtual/artificial rotations, bad design's impact on the format, repeated Modern bans, lack of communication around Modern, negative play patterns in Modern, and a variety of other Modern-only topics. All of this misses the big picture. These are game-wide, multi-format problems that have impacted basically all formats in the game. There are a few drivers at the core of these problems, but the biggest two I consistently see are a) untested/overpowered/overpushed design decisions that appear to put product sales before format/game health, and b) irregular/opaque/nonexistent communication around core issues by major Wizards figures. Every single constructed format in the game, even so-called community formats like Commander, are in varying degrees of jeopardy as a result of these issues. Whenever anyone suggests or outright says this is a Modern-only problem, they are letting Wizards off the hook for these game-wide, multi-format issues and tricking both themselves and anyone reading their content that this problem is isolated to one format. It's not. It is hitting every sector of Constructed Magic and will continue to hit every sector of Constructed Magic until addressed.

I think one reason people focus on Modern when discussing these issues, apart from the obvious like us being in the State of Modern thread, is that Modern has the most visible damage as a result of Wizards' game-wide problems. Other formats have a little extra insulation, either by virtue of their card pool, their community, or their format rules. For instance, Standard doesn't have to deal with the problem of artificial rotation because it's literally a rotating format. Legacy can absorb more ("MORE", but not all as we are learning) of the ridiculously pushed and overpowered cards because the base power level is higher. Commander can weather some of the external pressures due to unwritten social contracts within playgroups. Pioneer feels fine now because it is not in the competitive spotlight, has relatively low attendance, and is a newer format with a growing, less jaded community. All of this is in contrast to Modern, which feels like it is rotating when it shouldn't, doesn't have the card pool cushion of Legacy to absorb broken entrants, and can't default to social contracts in a hyper-competitive environment. It also has high iteration, is constantly in the competitive spotlight, and has a large, older, vocally disillusioned community. This makes Modern the perfect breeding ground for negative sentiment. But again, these are not Modern-specific issues. We are just feeling them more right now but if this continues, every single format will suffer significant, potentially irreversible damage as a result of Wizards' bad design decisions and deafening silence on these major issues.

Until the community starts addressing the core issues, this problem will spread. This means calling out bad design/testing/development decisions, ESPECIALLY the glaring failures of Play Design that couldn't even prevent a series of bans in Standard. It also means blasting Wizards for failing to communicate about these issues in a timely manner, or at all. Wizards expects the game to thrive in a fast-paced social media world, but simultaneously won't engage a huge chunk of criticism and feedback on those social media platforms. These are the core issues we have to address. Modern's issues are almost entirely symptomatic of these broader problems, and until we start realizing that, we aren't going to fix anything.
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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Check the lists in those links. 2012 to 2014 had a 30 card change in Jund and I don't remember it being called a rotation then, rather just expected updates.
TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
Let me clarify: you just said a deck having a 30 card change is not a rotation.

I'll remove myself from this argument, it's clearly not worth having.
Unless I am misunderstanding their point, it seems they are alluding to the fact that, with the current discussion and definitions, that seems to be pretty solidly in the "rotated" category. The point is that no one at the time was calling it a rotation.

Why would a 30 card change for Jund, in 2012-2014, be considered par for the course and not a rotation? What makes that different, where it was simply the evolution of a deck, compared to now when decks adapt and have their cards change? Are you just saying that players back then were just more willing to accept it and now they aren't?

There are other factors at play here in terms of power level and brokenness that leads to the idea of things rotating, but decks evolved considerably even in Modern's Golden Age. How is that different than a deck evolving now?

And if you *do* consider that a rotation regarding the current discussion then it seems the format has been the same for the last 8 years in that regard.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Until the community starts addressing the core issues, this problem will spread. This means calling out bad design/testing/development decisions, ESPECIALLY the glaring failures of Play Design that couldn't even prevent a series of bans in Standard. It also means blasting Wizards for failing to communicate about these issues in a timely manner, or at all. Wizards expects the game to thrive in a fast-paced social media world, but simultaneously won't engage a huge chunk of criticism and feedback on those social media platforms. These are the core issues we have to address. Modern's issues are almost entirely symptomatic of these broader problems, and until we start realizing that, we aren't going to fix anything.
People are calling out these issues. I see them on Twitter. You are not going to get Wizard's to engage with any REAL criticism however. Not when the staff believe this.

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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

alternatively I find the mtgo decklists situation very patronizing. Its "Hide the evidence we are doing a horrible job so we can downplay the concerns of the smart ones whos data analysis clearly shows there is a problem" and thats an element of the present situation that, going forward, is going to be aggrivating. The tournament results arent enough to build a case IF this grows, but Im really looking forward to seeing if that theory of Hasbro preparing to sell WOTC is true or not

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Being in a company that has been bought, bought others, several times, the pattern of short term planning to maximize value immediately makes sense.

However, they do honestly seem to think things are fine.

Maro last night essentially said 'Lurrus isn't Ancestral Recall, so what's the problem?'
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Has modern ever been a format without things people didn't like or wanted banned??? It frustrates me to no end seeing the discussions of people who will never be satisfied.
Yes. Pre-Eldrazi, Pre-Twin Ban, probably Pre-Pod Ban. Modern in that era was the best format Wizards has probably ever had.
For me I enjoyed it most at the start just after they banned the shoal stuff- it was very unexplored and challenging then, a wonderful environment that had a lot of lopsided matches but had a bit of space for most archetypes. IIRC Twin wasn't about then, it was a real hotch potch of odd decks. I did not enjoy the era with Twin, Infect, Jund, etc, a solid meta, and though it was better than the worst periods it was not that much fun for me as none of those decks tickled my fancy, though I owned 2 twin and an Infect list I rarely enjoyed playing them. Next for me was about 2017 ish, and at various points it has been pretty good. All subjective of course.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Oh completely. That was however when Modern became 'Modern'. It was when the 'pillars' where formed and understood to exist. Its when Jund and Junk were playable, when Grixis Control was playable, when decks like Merfolk and Elves could sneak in, when you could play stuff like Tooth and Nail.

When you had Storm, and Burn, and Infect and Tron and Scapeshift, and AdNaus, and if you lucked out, Suicide Zoo or Grishoalbrand, and Bloom.

The only thing that format really missed, was a viable UW hard Control deck, because they had neither Jace, or Teferi (Big) to make it work.

All subjective, as I know that kind of variety and established meta is not for everyone, but when people think about Modern, by and large that is the period they are referring too, even if they dont understand why.

The current grinder hyper iterated, pushed Standard 'Modern' is a pale shadow of that great format.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Has modern ever been a format without things people didn't like or wanted banned??? It frustrates me to no end seeing the discussions of people who will never be satisfied.
Yes. Pre-Eldrazi, Pre-Twin Ban, probably Pre-Pod Ban. Modern in that era was the best format Wizards has probably ever had.
For me I enjoyed it most at the start just after they banned the shoal stuff- it was very unexplored and challenging then, a wonderful environment that had a lot of lopsided matches but had a bit of space for most archetypes. IIRC Twin wasn't about then, it was a real hotch potch of odd decks. I did not enjoy the era with Twin, Infect, Jund, etc, a solid meta, and though it was better than the worst periods it was not that much fun for me as none of those decks tickled my fancy, though I owned 2 twin and an Infect list I rarely enjoyed playing them. Next for me was about 2017 ish, and at various points it has been pretty good. All subjective of course.
(In my opinion of course) That was indeed a very fun time. I enjoyed it myself quite a bit. The era of Twin, Jund, Pod, etc. got a bit stale after a while in my opinion, but part of that may have been that I didn't branch out to other decks as much as I wish I did (played Summer Bloom for only a bit over a month).

But honestly to me, the only times that were terrible were Eye of Ugin Eldrazi Winter and Hogaak Winter. Outside of that, everything was pretty wonderful (not perfect of course) until right about Oko and when War of the Spark cards started seeing more and more play. There were plenty of bans before and I was really upset usually when they happened. But even after they happened, Modern was still close to the best format for me (Legacy took that cake, but now with everything being 5 Color Snow, Legacy can go %$#% itself).

I don't think I am super hard to appease. I didn't mind Storm way back. I didn't mind Jund, even Treasure Cruise and Dig or Birthing Pod. All of these metas and cards were fine, although very powerful. KCI, etc. None of these felt like a terrible 1 deck meta. You may say that I played these decks, but I have rarely played Pod, Twin, or Jund type decks. I actually did play Eldrazi and Hogaak, but I still realize how bad it was then. Why can't Modern get back to those good times? (outside of Eye of Ugin and Hogaak)
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Because of Power Creep. There is simply no way you can have that balanced metagame, with the power creep that has taken place.

I've said it for years, and near nobody seems to have come to the same conclusion. We needed sweeping bans, and to establish a 'Modern Vision' that is not beholden to Hasbro demands for monetization.

When 'only a few cards per set' mattered to Modern? They didnt make enough money, but it was still the best Modern we have had.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Because of Power Creep. There is simply no way you can have that balanced metagame, with the power creep that has taken place.

I've said it for years, and near nobody seems to have come to the same conclusion. We needed sweeping bans, and to establish a 'Modern Vision' that is not beholden to Hasbro demands for monetization.

When 'only a few cards per set' mattered to Modern? They didnt make enough money, but it was still the best Modern we have had.
But they didn't need to make money off Modern through Standard sets. Standard cards selling should be done on the basis of Standard and Limited being good formats. With the exception of Modern sets like MM1, MM2, and M Horizons, Modern shouldn't be their focus.

Also I know this is not a popular belief, but to me, Modern Horizons was fairly successful. Yes, some things were pushed too much. If Hogaak never got printed and Urza took the ban instead of Mox Opal, the rest of MH was fine to me. It's better than not having come out at all. And I look forward to Modern Horizons 2. As long as the set doesn't have any Okos or Lurruses lurking, I am fine with the set. There are plenty of reprints from sets not legal to Modern that can be done, just like we all discussed here - Leovold, Containment Priest, Counterspell, Baleful Strix, and many less powerful than those. Any of those cards is not powerful enough to warrant a Hogaak situation, so I don't know what the problem is here.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
But they didn't need to make money off Modern through Standard sets.
No, but no publicly traded company has your best interests at heart. They dont NEED to make money off Modern, but if they can, they will, and the longer term health is not important.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
Let me clarify: you just said a deck having a 30 card change is not a rotation.

I'll remove myself from this argument, it's clearly not worth having.
No. I said that decks were evolving back then too. I pointed out how many cards changed over a 3 year time span and players considered that to be normal. They didn't call it a rotation.

So, if that wasn't a rotation, and is considered the golden age of Modern, then why is a similar number of card changes now suddenly a rotation and bad? It's essentially the same thing.


WizardMN's response put it more eloquently.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
The only thing that format really missed, was a viable UW hard Control deck, because they had neither Jace, or Teferi (Big) to make it work.
Didn't Jeskai control win the Pro Tour in 2014?

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2014-09-24

Was that not hard control enough?

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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/franklep ... -conundrum #CompanionWatch2020 from the perspective of Frank Lepore. It is just a collection of the twitter posts from players of companion based decks in all formats, as well as a run-down of the known tournament results including companions, his personal opinion is clearly represented in the fact that its a conundrum, but "The more I think about it, and the more I read about it, the more companions seem like another in a sizable line of mistakes in the past few years."

And to be honest, I like them as cards, I just dont like the issue that companion creates, so put em in your maindeck like everyone else with good creatures.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I'm on my phone, but what was the top 8? If you were around during the pre-Eldrazi days, the lack of a meaningful UW, UWR, or Esper presence as a fixture of the 'pillars' was a common complaint.

Could UWR take down events? Absolutely. There was room to metagame that format, just as there was room to master YOUR deck, instead of rotation through the best deck over and over.

Right before Eldrazi, best Modern we ever had.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
The competitive format of now and of the future is pioneer. The only reason they probably care about modern, is MH2, which will make them the last quick buck out of it.
Not printing a card because modern is the easiest format to break out of them all is wrong. Banning baubles and opals of the world is what lets them print future lurruses. I think at this point, this is the right thing to do.
Lurrus is broken regardless. Sure, it's super freaking broken when you go T1 Lotus, crack, lurrus, lotus but there's other issues.

It's still pretty freaking broken to go Lurrus, bauble.

It's even still broken to go Lurrus, Seal of Fire.

There is way too much that would need banned at this point.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Oh and that article is good. Imagine you play ramp, and you always have your payoff, and you can sculpt your opening hand.

Seems good?
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
I'm on my phone, but what was the top 8? If you were around during the pre-Eldrazi days, the lack of a meaningful UW, UWR, or Esper presence as a fixture of the 'pillars' was a common complaint.
UWR control
Melira Pod
Twin
RUG Twin
Twin
Blue Moon
Storm
Affinity

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

%$#%$#%, that's beautiful. Taken down by UWR no less.
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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Has modern ever been a format without things people didn't like or wanted banned??? It frustrates me to no end seeing the discussions of people who will never be satisfied.
Yes. Pre-Eldrazi, Pre-Twin Ban, probably Pre-Pod Ban. Modern in that era was the best format Wizards has probably ever had.
I wasn't playing Magic in that period, so forgive my lack of knowledge, but were decks like Affinity a problem during that period? Or Deathrite Shaman wasn't banned and being overpowered?

I'm not being snarky, I'm just curious if there was a boogeyman that people wanted banned like now. Because ever since I started playing magic again, a couple of years ago, people have moved from one ban uproar to the next. Some being obvious while others seem like one person just being sour over a card because he got whooped by it a few too many times.

I basically had an 18 year break from magic and I've honestly gotten pretty tired of the attitudes a lot of players have after getting back to it. There was a way more friendly attitude with Warhammer players (played it since '94). I don't know what it is about so many Magic players always having to "assert dominance", but is tiring as %$#%. I just want everybody to have fun really, and to play my tron lands :)

If I had more money to spend on cards, I'd have a couple more modern decks because I think it's fun, but oh well... some day maybe.
What chance does something like Jeskai control have these days at doing well at the fnm level? I remember it being the %$#% when I was getting back into magic.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Prior to Eldrazi, Pod was hit. It was seen as too good, and the excuse at the time was that it limited design space.

The interesting thing is how many 'not pod' cards they have printed.

If you looked at Modern at that time, with a long enough lens, you would see that they hit the 'best deck' before the pro tour.

Sometimes it killed decks, sometimes it didn't.

Ban Mania was not like it is now.
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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
The competitive format of now and of the future is pioneer. The only reason they probably care about modern, is MH2, which will make them the last quick buck out of it.
Not printing a card because modern is the easiest format to break out of them all is wrong. Banning baubles and opals of the world is what lets them print future lurruses. I think at this point, this is the right thing to do.

Except the fact that it has reduced numbers online and paper magic is basically dead for the foreseeable future. Pioneer is also hit by these game sweeping mistakes, it isnt some safe perfect format.
Why do opals and baubles matter when every format in the game gets broken and changed every set release? Pioneer will no doubt also be broken multiple times this year resulting in bans
Cards like Lurrus, Oko and Uro are stupid and broken even without looking at older cards and these are only looking the last 3 sets released

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