[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Yes, because without Punish Fire, Grove is a negative card.

Just as Uro is when compared to sensible Magic cards, unbelievably busted, Lurrus is indefensible. lol
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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

What makes these power creeps worse is it doesn't just hurt eternal formats it hurts standard and the very foundation of the game. If wizards aim is short term gains then they are probably doing a good job but Standard overall has been in decline for years. The issue is nobody cares about the format and no one wants to buy in with bans every 3-6 months that has become the new norm. We couldn't even fire standard tournaments for comp level events here when they used to get upwards in the 100+ range back during Rav/Theros/KTK.

Look at all the product we get every year now as well when we used to get a small percentage of it. Wizards even printing singles basically including fetchlands which was obviously priced higher of course.
It's actually getting kind of sad now and doesn't feel like magic more and more
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

ThatStoryTeller wrote:
1 year ago
And you know what, you dont have to. Freedom of your time and efforts man, but the professor has gone from vocal supporter of wizards of the coast to pseudo intellectual and emotionally critic of the policies of the company. And yes I believe that the factors of this discussion, and some of his perspective on what the format needed to be, is VERY relevant.
That makes a lot of sense though. Wizards used to be praised for the way they managed the game. Sure, there were occasional sets with issues here and there and even some colossal screw-ups like Eldrazi and Treasure Cruise. But, it's hard to deny at this point that the game has some severe development issues right now. There's lots of discussion on why, but it's really secondary (at most it lets us talk about potential fixes, or glean insight into how Wizards works) to the main point: Development is completely and utterly screwed up and it's having huge impacts on the stability of the game and peoples willingness to play it with a never ending rotation of tier 0 decks and bannings.

And I know this isn't a Modern ban, but I think that what says this all is the fact that we just had, to relatively little fanfare, a banning of a card in a format BEFORE IT WAS RELEASED and basically no one cares, only because Brawl is awful. With that, basically every single Urza's block checkmark has been hit within the past 12 months.

Being critical of the companies policies right now is entirely warranted.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Here are some of my thoughts on the Professor Video.

I don't believe that the Splinter Twin banning caused Modern to fall apart. That thing was something independent that WotC decided to do; change their philosophy on Modern. Infect may have been able to survive a banning if Twin was not banned, but everything else needed to be banned, regardless of another powerful deck existing. Also, WotC has shown their distaste for Gitaxian Probe and that they had been looking to ban it for a while now, so I doubt that Modern would have been able to keep that card.
It seemed like the bigger point he was making wasn't necessarily that its existence could have saved us from other future mistakes, but that it was the single turning point that began the era of "The best decks WILL be banned, and your deck is NEVER safe." Now, they have since somewhat reversed course in practice, but this fear has existed ever since. A fear that exists to this day (and was even explicitly stated in nikachu's video a page or two ago): Do not invest, do not spend your money, do not buy into top decks, unless you are absolutely OK with that deck being destroyed. This is the legacy of Twin's ban: constant fear of investments being destroyed with bans.

The only thing that has changed is we now have investments being destroyed by broken new cards. So you are effectively faced with a choice: buy into a busted deck you know will be banned, or continue to play your inferior build.

Welcome to Modern: please enjoy your stay as long as you have endless income to frequently buy, replace, and rebuild thousand dollar decks. Unless you have Tron, because for whatever f**king reason, that will never, ever, ever, ever be destroyed.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Here are some of my thoughts on the Professor Video.

I don't believe that the Splinter Twin banning caused Modern to fall apart. That thing was something independent that WotC decided to do; change their philosophy on Modern. Infect may have been able to survive a banning if Twin was not banned, but everything else needed to be banned, regardless of another powerful deck existing. Also, WotC has shown their distaste for Gitaxian Probe and that they had been looking to ban it for a while now, so I doubt that Modern would have been able to keep that card.
It seemed like the bigger point he was making wasn't necessarily that its existence could have saved us from other future mistakes, but that it was the single turning point that began the era of "The best decks WILL be banned, and your deck is NEVER safe." Now, they have since somewhat reversed course in practice, but this fear has existed ever since. A fear that exists to this day (and was even explicitly stated in nikachu's video a page or two ago): Do not invest, do not spend your money, do not buy into top decks, unless you are absolutely OK with that deck being destroyed. This is the legacy of Twin's ban: constant fear of investments being destroyed with bans.

The only thing that has changed is we now have investments being destroyed by broken new cards. So you are effectively faced with a choice: buy into a busted deck you know will be banned, or continue to play your inferior build.

Welcome to Modern: please enjoy your stay as long as you have endless income to frequently buy, replace, and rebuild thousand dollar decks. Unless you have Tron, because for whatever f**king reason, that will never, ever, ever, ever be destroyed.
Then that point is very valid. Yes, people did start to realize the fact that their deck is never safe, unless it is not considered to be the best deck. Players ever since have feared, including Grixis Shadow and Humans, which we know haven't sustained any bans. I actually think those decks not receiving bans and WotC showing some restraint has been some of their best work ever. They deserve good recognition for not just going, "Death's Shadow is now banned" or "Champion of the Parish is now banned." We can see the result of good choices, although maybe the printings of newer busted cards kept us from realizing just how powerful these decks were at the time and could have been now.

Regarding Tron and I know that's not your point here, I never have felt like Tron was considered the best deck. It got close after the London Mulligan until players started preparing for it more again.

*One thing about the video that was chilling was that Twin has been now banned longer than it was legal. I did not realize this. My internal timeline felt like it was about half as long because honestly, Twin was around for quite a long time. I remember before Siege Rhino, Treasure Cruise, and Dig, when many people considered Birthing Pod or Affinity decks to be the "best" decks of the time, I had success with Twin vs. those decks. I was and am convinced that Twin beat those decks and nobody is going to tell me otherwise. The problem for me was more BGx decks and that kept me from playing Twin too long.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Question for everyone here. Just read FoodChainGoblins's post and thought:
If Punishing fire is not fine for pseudocomboing with grove of the burnwillows
isn't Lurrus of the Dream Den + seal of fire a just as good pseudo-repetitive combo? Maybe even better?
Consistency with past actions is neither a necessity nor priority for the B&R committee. The only thing that matters is the immediate moment, right now, and forgetting that anything ever happened before.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Any rumors or word about Modern Horizons 2 or just Wizards making statements about Modern in general?

Also, for what it's worth, I'll keep playing modern as long as I can play various tron decks :)

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Any rumors or word about Modern Horizons 2 or just Wizards making statements about Modern in general?

Also, for what it's worth, I'll keep playing modern as long as I can play various tron decks :)
I remember them noting MH was a success and 2 was likely to happen but no confirmation as such. Maybe next year as this year I believe we are getting something like commander masters

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

So something from a tweet I was just triggered by.

What are the top 10 mistakes in design development? All time.

Storm? Fetchlands? Planeswalkers? I'll have to think on it.
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

If it wasn't for Covid-19 and the crash of prizes in paper I would sell my collection after playing for 20+ years. I feel worn out because Modern and Legacy are not the nonrotating formates they want us to believe. The game has changed too much for my liking. I will definitely skip this set. I won't be playing any magic for the next 6 months anyway. After what happened last year and seeing how this year is going I believe they will lose a ton of people permanently.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

In thinking further on 'Mistakes'. I'm setting parameters of what forms the basis of Magic, within the competitive framework.

Starting Hand - 7 Cards
Deck Size - Min 60 Cards
Rule of 4
1 Land played per Turn, which tap for 1 Mana.
20 Life
Draw a Card, and Untap all Lands on your Turn.

Any other basics you think when looking at the basic framework of the game?
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
In thinking further on 'Mistakes'. I'm setting parameters of what forms the basis of Magic, within the competitive framework.

Starting Hand - 7 Cards
Deck Size - Min 60 Cards
Rule of 4
1 Land played per Turn, which tap for 1 Mana.
20 Life
Draw a Card, and Untap all Lands on your Turn.

Any other basics you think when looking at the basic framework of the game?
Discarded cards should not be part of your 'hand.'

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Graveyard a resource would be a mistake for sure.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Thoughts? Historical mistakes, but my context is Modern since Theros. Looking at things that are either.

Mechanical Breaks.
Color Pie Breaks.

10. Eldrazi
9. Energy
8. Storm
7. Hexproof
6. Tron
5. Eldrazi
4. Affinity
3. Phyrexian Mana
2. Graveyard Matters (Dredge/Delve/Flashback)
1. Companion
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Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Graveyard a resource would be a mistake for sure.
I don't think it is graveyard as a resource that was the mistake. I think that is fine.

I think it is graveyard being allowed to be self-filled easily or efficiently when graveyard can be a resource that was the mistake.

I don't think cards should have been printed that let you put your own library into your own graveyard easily or efficiently. Fill opponent graveyards, sure, as long as they don't print cards that treat opponent graveyards as a resource except at high cmc and such. But cards that fill your own graveyard shouldn't be easy. If they want you to get rid of things in your hand or from the top of your library, it should be going into exile or the bottom of your library or shuffled into your library, not going into your graveyard.

For instance, something like Faithless Looting, it shouldn't have discarded your cards into your graveyard, but either exiled them or put them on the bottom of your library. Filling the graveyard should normally be expensive or tricky to do on your own, and you should mostly rely on opponents filling it by killing/destroying your stuff, and treating recursion effects more like a form of redundancy/protection that some opponents can screw up with sideboard efforts (like grave hate cards), rather than something that can let you easily cheat stuff out more efficiently.

The stuff that fills your own graveyard could exist, but it should be starting at more like 3+ cmc or more, and be tricker and less accurate to do before 4+ cmc, and impossible to do in bulk before 5+ cmc, if they want to have graveyard as a resource.

The graveyard is a flavorful resource that makes sense to exist, especially for the color black, but filling it up cheaply is like the equivalent of a low level D&D spellcaster casting heroes' feast with a 1st level spell slot. Sure, you need people to feed it to, and it doesn't directly attack the enemy, and you need time to eat it, but, well, it has easily potentially above level benefits in many obvious situations.

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Here are some of my thoughts on the Professor Video.

I don't believe that the Splinter Twin banning caused Modern to fall apart. That thing was something independent that WotC decided to do; change their philosophy on Modern. Infect may have been able to survive a banning if Twin was not banned, but everything else needed to be banned, regardless of another powerful deck existing. Also, WotC has shown their distaste for Gitaxian Probe and that they had been looking to ban it for a while now, so I doubt that Modern would have been able to keep that card.
It seemed like the bigger point he was making wasn't necessarily that its existence could have saved us from other future mistakes, but that it was the single turning point that began the era of "The best decks WILL be banned, and your deck is NEVER safe." Now, they have since somewhat reversed course in practice, but this fear has existed ever since. A fear that exists to this day (and was even explicitly stated in nikachu's video a page or two ago): Do not invest, do not spend your money, do not buy into top decks, unless you are absolutely OK with that deck being destroyed. This is the legacy of Twin's ban: constant fear of investments being destroyed with bans.

The only thing that has changed is we now have investments being destroyed by broken new cards. So you are effectively faced with a choice: buy into a busted deck you know will be banned, or continue to play your inferior build.

Welcome to Modern: please enjoy your stay as long as you have endless income to frequently buy, replace, and rebuild thousand dollar decks. Unless you have Tron, because for whatever f**king reason, that will never, ever, ever, ever be destroyed.
The way I see it, either Wizards has a quota to let one colorless deck to exist in modern just like in Vintage with shops. Or someone is protecting pet cards.
AvalonAurora wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Graveyard a resource would be a mistake for sure.
I don't think it is graveyard as a resource that was the mistake. I think that is fine.

I think it is graveyard being allowed to be self-filled easily or efficiently when graveyard can be a resource that was the mistake.

I don't think cards should have been printed that let you put your own library into your own graveyard easily or efficiently. Fill opponent graveyards, sure, as long as they don't print cards that treat opponent graveyards as a resource except at high cmc and such. But cards that fill your own graveyard shouldn't be easy. If they want you to get rid of things in your hand or from the top of your library, it should be going into exile or the bottom of your library or shuffled into your library, not going into your graveyard.

For instance, something like Faithless Looting, it shouldn't have discarded your cards into your graveyard, but either exiled them or put them on the bottom of your library. Filling the graveyard should normally be expensive or tricky to do on your own, and you should mostly rely on opponents filling it by killing/destroying your stuff, and treating recursion effects more like a form of redundancy/protection that some opponents can screw up with sideboard efforts (like grave hate cards), rather than something that can let you easily cheat stuff out more efficiently.

The stuff that fills your own graveyard could exist, but it should be starting at more like 3+ cmc or more, and be tricker and less accurate to do before 4+ cmc, and impossible to do in bulk before 5+ cmc, if they want to have graveyard as a resource.

The graveyard is a flavorful resource that makes sense to exist, especially for the color black, but filling it up cheaply is like the equivalent of a low level D&D spellcaster casting heroes' feast with a 1st level spell slot. Sure, you need people to feed it to, and it doesn't directly attack the enemy, and you need time to eat it, but, well, it has easily potentially above level benefits in many obvious situations.
The bolded right here is why it's not rare for people in Yugioh TCG to call the graveyard the 2nd hand.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
So something from a tweet I was just triggered by.

What are the top 10 mistakes in design development? All time.

Storm? Fetchlands? Planeswalkers? I'll have to think on it.

April 2020 (Ikoria)
January 2020 (Theros)
October 2019 (Eldraine)
July 2019 (M21)
June 2019 (Modern Horizons)
April 2019 (War)
January 2019 (Ravnica)
September 2018 (Ravnica)
October 1998 (Urza)
February 1999 (Urza)
May 1999 (Urza)

Guess my list has 11 of them.
iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
If it wasn't for Covid-19 and the crash of prizes in paper I would sell my collection after playing for 20+ years. I feel worn out because Modern and Legacy are not the nonrotating formates they want us to believe. The game has changed too much for my liking. I will definitely skip this set. I won't be playing any magic for the next 6 months anyway. After what happened last year and seeing how this year is going I believe they will lose a ton of people permanently.
Sure they are. You haven't lost (many) cards in the format. Certainly not enough to claim they've rotated. The concept of adding new cards, inherently means cards are going to rotate out of favor and you'll see better options over time. Power creep is high, but it's inaccurate to say the format rotates, you'll win less but you can (mostly) play the same pile of 75 cards that you played 8 years ago.

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Sure they are. You haven't lost (many) cards in the format. Certainly not enough to claim they've rotated. The concept of adding new cards, inherently means cards are going to rotate out of favor and you'll see better options over time. Power creep is high, but it's inaccurate to say the format rotates, you'll win less but you can (mostly) play the same pile of 75 cards that you played 8 years ago.

This is simply not the case. You can absolutely not play decks from 8 years ago. I realize this is hyperbole, but still, it's just strictly and provably untrue.

I'll take Jund as a classic example of an old deck that is still successful: Ignoring lands, i'll look at the 36 mb cards:

Since the BBE unban 2 yeras ago, new cards are: 4x BBE, 3x Kroxa, 2x Seasoned Pyromancer, 1x Assassin's Trophy, 3x Wrenn.

That's every 3rd card in a deck that managed to remain competitive. Most of them are extremely expensive too: Kroxa is $20, Pyromancer $10, Trophy $13, Wrenn $55, thats $260 in the space of two years.

Many other decks have become completely unplayable.

Now Jund is an expensive example, but it's even more drastic on MTGO.

Power creep seldom means that cards temporarily rotate out of favour, a lot of the time cards become permanently unplayable (or for as long as the cards pushing it down are legal).

I mean 8Rack was a deck, and it even got that Planeswalker, people thought 12Rack could be a thing. Then: Veil of Summer, Wrenn, Urza, Emry, Uro, now Lurrus.

8Rack is never ever coming back to modern. That deck is dead forever. And many other decks have sufferd the same fate. I think the horizon of asking "what Tier 1 decks fall in and out of favour" is way too narrow. Sure GDS/GTron/Jund/Dredge etc fall in and out of favour. They are so powerful it only takes a slight shift to make them top decks again. Lower Tiered decks don't have the same luxury. Often, once unviable, they stay unviable, unless very good cards are printed for them (that don't also to the same extent improve top decks) or cards out of top decks are banned.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Surely the must be a happy medium between arse weak standard of Oath, say, and the OTT post War nuts-card-of-the month?

The other point is would all these new nuts cards be nuts if they printed nuts answers? Imagine.
Cursed totem for walkers.
Even better a 2 mana torpor orb OR cursed totem, modal on ETB. Balls to it- some tosser at WOTC thinks a 4 mana 6/6 that does a better impression of prime Time is OK lets have Swords to plowshares and counterspell (not remotely nuts by today's standards of threats).
Humility (I know it is RL, but the principle- a 5 mana humility that exiles opponent's graveyards or whatever other hate bonus you want, maybe one that does not effect enchantment creatures or whatever)
Pendrell Mists for 2 mana in white or blue hybrid.
Nevermore at 2 mana.
Pithing needles that cantrip but can't hit, say, land abilities (fetches).
Sinkhole
Meekstone

Energy Flux (I know color pie but who cares- green ate all of white's color pie, the color pie is a distant memory thanks to somebody having a huge one for green at the expense of every other colour)
You get the idea. If stuff like this was printed the problem cards would not be as big a problem, apart from maybe companion.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Has anybody here ever enjoyed playing modern? Most of the stuff mentioned being problematic is just so.... modern defining hehe. I've stayed away from modern and magic discussions a lot recently because it's extremely tiresome to follow with the same points being endlessly argued in a bitter and "better knowing" fashion.
Has modern ever been a format without things people didn't like or wanted banned??? It frustrates me to no end seeing the discussions of people who will never be satisfied.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it was up to the community (I hate that word), all we'd have left to play with were basic lands and maybe something like a vanilla 2/2 creature. And that %$#% sucks. So tired of all the whining and moaning.
Hate on me all you want and disagree as much as you like, but just stop %$#% whining so much.
If modern is such a big problem, then play another format. Wizards aren't doing anything to change it for the better, so play something else. For reals.

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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Surely the must be a happy medium between arse weak standard of Oath, say, and the OTT post War nuts-card-of-the month?

The other point is would all these new nuts cards be nuts if they printed nuts answers? Imagine.
Cursed totem for walkers.
Even better a 2 mana torpor orb OR cursed totem, modal on ETB. Balls to it- some tosser at WOTC thinks a 4 mana 6/6 that does a better impression of prime Time is OK lets have Swords to plowshares and counterspell (not remotely nuts by today's standards of threats).
Humility (I know it is RL, but the principle- a 5 mana humility that exiles opponent's graveyards or whatever other hate bonus you want, maybe one that does not effect enchantment creatures or whatever)
Pendrell Mists for 2 mana in white or blue hybrid.
Nevermore at 2 mana.
Pithing needles that cantrip but can't hit, say, land abilities (fetches).
Sinkhole
Meekstone

Energy Flux (I know color pie but who cares- green ate all of white's color pie, the color pie is a distant memory thanks to somebody having a huge one for green at the expense of every other colour)
You get the idea. If stuff like this was printed the problem cards would not be as big a problem, apart from maybe companion.
This is more of what I expected Modern Horizons to have honestly, not have development be focused to much on a draft format. More MD and SB Tools the format could use in case of emergency, while also having reasonable hype to drive box sales. Power level of 8th edition to the present day type stuff, and while I enjoy thopter combo assistance from urza's, hes pushed to the level of a commander card.
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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it was up to the community (I hate that word), all we'd have left to play with were basic lands and maybe something like a vanilla 2/2 creature. And that %$#% sucks. So tired of all the whining and moaning.
Hate on me all you want and disagree as much as you like, but just stop %$#% whining so much.
Hard disagree on everything here. Modern was great for a long time, which is why people are so attached to it. And the sentiment right now is that a lot of dumb cards have been printed in a very short time. It's necessary to not just duck under all that. I'll repeat myself that I think modern is very very few cards away from being awesome.

A lot of modern games are still amazingly fun, but if every, say, 4th game is made into a non-game by very recent prints or one card (Lurrus, Astrolabe) slots into a huge amount of decks and kills diversity, that is not whining, that is warrented critique.

Personally, I really can't stand these nihilistic blurbs people keep periodically dropping. It's lazy and these arguments are almost always poorly thought-through, as is yours.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
Hard disagree on everything here. Modern was great for a long time, which is why people are so attached to it. And the sentiment right now is that a lot of dumb cards have been printed in a very short time. It's necessary to not just duck under all that. I'll repeat myself that I think modern is very very few cards away from being awesome.

A lot of modern games are still amazingly fun, but if every, say, 4th game is made into a non-game by very recent prints or one card (Lurrus, Astrolabe) slots into a huge amount of decks and kills diversity, that is not whining, that is warrented critique.

Personally, I really can't stand these nihilistic blurbs people keep periodically dropping. It's lazy and these arguments are almost always poorly thought-through, as is yours.
I don't have a tier 1 tron deck, but I always had tons of fun playing modern fnms (I never played higher level than that).
Even though I lose most of the time, I still have fun and playing against a lot of different decks is fun in general. I like modern a lot, but then again, I'm only a pleb who doesn't have a tier 1 deck and only plays fnm, so my opinion is probably laughed at anyway, but I don't care.

If those couple of choice cards you'd like to see banned were banned, other cards would pop up and become new trouble cards for a new meta that would be set very fast. It's a never ending cycle if it starts.

I don't think my post is nihilistic and I disagree with you. Is it lazy airing frustrations? It's basically the only thing people do in these types of threads, it's just "poorly thought-through" because it's something you disagree with.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Most of us do play other formats.
There are very few paper Modern players left, because there are very few people who enjoy pissing money away, which is what Modern is. It is like a boat, gives you the best two days of your life, the day you buy it and the day you sell the sod. Modern is the Mtg equivalent.
Modern has been good at times, for sure.

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Most of us do play other formats.
There are very few paper Modern players left, because there are very few people who enjoy pissing money away, which is what Modern is. It is like a boat, gives you the best two days of your life, the day you buy it and the day you sell the sod. Modern is the Mtg equivalent.
Modern has been good at times, for sure.
I don't know why a few posters keep mentioning it's just modern with an issue. Its every single format in the game right now due to wizards incompetence. Legacy and vintage are getting changed every 3 months just like modern, it's that bad right.
Magic in general is in a super rough spot right now both digital and paper. If wizards isnt careful with what corona is doing to the world currently, magic could blow up in their face.

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