[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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cfusionpm
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Looking forward to some non-zero amount of 2019/2020 cards banned in the coming weeks, and a big apology unban that, yet again, does not include Twin.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Looking forward to some non-zero amount of 2019/2020 cards banned in the coming weeks, and a big apology unban that, yet again, does not include Twin.
People with sense on Twitter are talking full on errata of the Companion mechanic instead of just banning multiple cards.

Biggest joke in my time of the game, at least Eldrazi only ruined Modern, this has hit everything (other than Pauper...), even Limited!
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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago

I understand this is a thread for modern fanboys.
A thread for modern fanboys? This thread has seen so much Modern hate it is not even remotely close to anywhere else :P
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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Your previous phrase about the competitivity of pioneer makes me say what I said. Its not to come out as an insult, but what your lack of serious explanation about it tells me.

We can agree to disagree about a lot of stuff. I guess time will tell about when and if pioneer makes it into arena(and if modern is going to do it -its not- )

I understand this is a thread for modern fanboys. Its not wrong to be one. If you mind the word, i take it back and use the word hardcore player instead. I once thought myself as a modern one.
Wizards said they have no plans for modern going into pioneer. Personally, i hate modo. And i love arena. But thinking modern has a chance, while they said they have no plans for it, just does not make sense at all, unless you are a blind believer. Thats what i used the word i used.
So what happen's if arena tanks before they finish implementing Pioneer on it? I understand you will have your first shot at a Pioneer set later this year but its going to take *years* to fully implement pioneer. Digital card games are not doing well across the board
Honestly if anything I just see magic in general continuing in a downward trend and wizards printing more and more mistakes to try make money
Last edited by Amalgam 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago

I understand this is a thread for modern fanboys.
A thread for modern fanboys? This thread has seen so much Modern hate it is not even remotely close to anywhere else :P
For what its worth, its not even Modern hate, at least for me, its all academic. It's fear for the future of the game itself, nearly all formats.

If you actually believe Maro when he say's these cards are not stronger than what is already going on in Legacy/Modern/Pioneer...well I guess thats fine.
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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
If you actually believe Maro when he say's these cards are not stronger than what is already going on in Legacy/Modern/Pioneer...well I guess thats fine.
That is what stands out to me too. Now, I am willing to offer the benefit of the doubt to him since he is constantly saying that he doesn't do anything with power level; just design (and I realize there are some design issues too here). So, I have a feeling that if he believes that, it means someone has told him that or is speaking along those lines internally. And, if it is the development or Play Design groups, that is a concern.

I don't really put too much stock in what MaRo says beyond the Design topics; but someone internally who actually has a hand in power level believes that and I agree that it is a problem because it absolutely messing things up.

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

The new modern challenge where almost every deck is playing these new companions seems kind of disgusting. Even burn is playing Lurrus and the card is basically a free addition to the deck with no downside.
I really wonder where modern will be in a few months meta wise with hopefully some more hate cards being printed too.
I really don't know how wizards seems to one up themselves every set with printing new cards that affects every single format in the game to such an extent.
This companion mechanic is already breaking vintage and legacy and it will only get worse for modern and Pioneer from here. I can't even think about how standard is going to look 3 months from now

If you thought 2019 set design was bad I'm sure 2020 set design is going to be just as fun with how we are starting the year off
Last edited by Amalgam 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I've called this all out for years.

What hate? At what cost? Free? Impacts the state of the game turn 0?

They are sacrificing the future of Magic for literally no reason.

These designs are flawed. Maro can claim he's not involved in power but that's a %$#% cop out and anyone not a child knows it.

Between him and Aaron they have actual decades of experience, I would like to think at this point in their tenure they have picked up a few things.

SPOILERS: Maro has written on these concepts. Wizards knows what they have done.

I mentioned last week, if you think they test at all for competitive, stop.

If you think they understand and care about eternal formats, stop.
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Amalgam
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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

A funny thing to note is companions will always exist in vintage as they aren't hurt by the rule of only restricting cards. Vintage has basically been changed overnight from these cards being printed

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Yep. And they are powerful enough to see play in a format where the Power 9 exists.

But its just hype folks, it's all going to work out, people are just testing things.../s

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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

ok whos actually planning to play drannith magistrate to solve this problem we have here? /s

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

It beats the mirror, which you'll see a lot of.
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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I am here to actually disturb your peace. I think companions are a super cool design, and I love it. Even Lurrus, I think it's not the problem, but busted old cards like LED and Mishra's Bauble. Don't touch companions, they make the game better! If anything needs to be banned, ban Bauble, and see where we go from there! Maybe that could leave a Tier 1 UR Bolt-Snap-Bolt tempo deck back.
Some of the companions are fine, but 3-4 of them are far too pushed and busted even outside old existing cards. Please note the companions also blew up standard and pioneer, not just vintage, legacy and modern. The fact that some of them slot into existing decks as a free 8th card at no opportunity cost is so many levels of wrong.
I know you enjoy Pioneer but it and standard are going to go through the same joyride every other format will enjoy this year. No format is safe

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Hey, someone has to be the contrarian.

If you want Magic to be something it wasnt, that is totally a fine position to take.
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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

nikachu is commenting on this, unsurprisingly, I feel like he has gained a the vocal representation of tier 2 players in modern while also expanding on common opinions that he shares. H

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

The format really cant, and wont, catch a break.

I certainly hope nobody who actually play's has any illusions as to the priority of the format's health in the eyes of those who design/develop the game.

If you listen to Aaron (whenever he get's around to writing the article we were promised..how long ago) well that's on you.

That said, this is what I would be on, cuz Burn is boring and Lurrus is BUSTED.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/m ... 9376#paper
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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

competitive magic players will buy this stuff anyways. it's possible hasbro/wizards have adopted something very similar to konami in the way they design cards. the only way to protect yourself is to adopt a minimalist attitude towards the game. just buy the singles you need and play decks as much as you can while they still have legs.

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 1 year ago

Modern Challenge top8 is a thing of beauty. Great diversity, even when Lurrus is overplayed.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

I hate companions since they were spotted. Its a commander mechanic pushed into constructed through Standard! Not everyone likes Commander. I think its a stupid format but because it is their only cash cow at the moment they thought: "Hey lets turn every format into Commander that will be fun and will sell lots of packs!". Thanks a lot Maro. I am %$#% done with you since last year. Can you please leave already.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

The only reason I like commander is about 25K of sales to them. Thanks ladies and gents, you funded a Legacy collection.

Commander is garbage, but they want to please commander players as there are more of them. To each their own.

None of this should surprise us.
They aimed at boys for a long time - probably early 2000s- to 2012/13 or so- (and it was boys, no matter what they may say now or pretend otherwise) saying "play the game/see the world" marketing the game as a skill based game for 20-25 year olds, normally males who could travel from place to place- they preyed on ego because those people would pay a lot of money (then) for the latest Standard cards with little reward if they did not achieve their aims- as most didn't. They hooked the grinders in big time. They went after people who liked ranking points (I was probably one of them). "Go big or go home" and all that macho bull (i was not one of them). You could follow your dream and be a pro- except it was like trying to be a pro footballer- you did not have to be good, or even great- you had to be in a very limited number of countries, be outstanding - and there were plenty of them- get some good connections- and have a bit of financial backing to begin with and a devil may care attitude to your pension. I know loads of super players who were dejected as they realised the requirements to get to the top. Some sold out. I made money off them too, probably.

They abandoned this and started to aim the game more widely- especially as gaming became more de rigeur- selling as a social thing- a more diverse audience and far less emphasis on competition, points etc. Ranking points became planeswalker points, pre releases became gimmicky, story rose to prominence, and eventually design ended up aiming at casuals- first with depowered standard and now with overpowered threats. Pros became sellers of the game- a high streaming profile and geographic spread being key requirements.

But you know what prior to them doing all that from ABU through to Alliances they aimed at roleplayers, larpers, and casuals, literally back when the game started- nearly everyone I knew back then was a roleplayer of some sort first. Some time around 96/97 -2002 or so they had a nice mix- a small player pool and generous prizes- free holidays, thank you Wizards. The role players would be there, but so would the spikes. Competitive but with enough bite. Some pros had other jobs, mix and match as it were. Lawyer by day, pro by night, a few weeks a year away paid for by cards. That did not last as there was more money to be made from the grinders. Now more money from casuals- hardly surprising given the narrow demographic they aimed at.

So really we are full circle. People playing what they like with no hate cards, multiplayer games, an emphasis away from standard and competition in general. WOTC don't hate competition, they just don't want to upset their new audience.

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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

jim davis commentary. This has a more modern discussion focus and his perspective on companion, with experience playing from a blue deck, as well as an idea on how to fix the mechanic.

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

I guess it's kind of a good thing that Companions turn out to be Hogaaks and not T3feris. There's just no chance in hell this stuff doesn't get banned and then we're done with it, instead of them just being a constant annoyance from now on.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Do you have any statements by Wizards that any of the two claims are true? Because they seem to be doing quite ok with both printing new cards specifically for the format as well as being in contact with the community regarding the banlist/rules.
Mark Rosewater has said numerous times that for the long term health of the format they need to make changes to it. One of the RC people who worked at WotC for a bit said the same thing in one of his SCG articles not too long ago.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I wouldn't be so sure. The game will become repetitive, but honestly this has been the direction for a long time.

Play to the board.
Play Commander.

Hell, my Taking Turns deck may as well be a Commander deck. Build up Board State.

That's just Magic now, for nearly every archetype.
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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

ThatStoryTeller wrote:
1 year ago
jim davis commentary. This has a more modern discussion focus and his perspective on companion, with experience playing from a blue deck, as well as an idea on how to fix the mechanic.
This is the calm, nuanced, game-design focused response to companion that we need. No "ban everything, what the flip were they thinking, they are absolute incompetents, they just want to squeeze us off our money and run to Hawaii" garbage we have been listening here.

As I have said before, they need to be looking for new design spaces. The idea of the mechanic as such is not bad, i.e. deckbuilding restrictions to get an advantage somewhere else. It IS a good thing that they are experimenting with new things.

YES they do fail, and YES they could be doing things much better in several fronts, and to their credit, they have been quite accepting of community feedback.

In the case of companion, respond to it for what it is, a new design space, and respond to it from a design point of view. Shouting "IT BREAKS THE RULEZ" says absolutely nothing.
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