[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Veil and Lurrus.
Uro OR Astrolabe.
T3feri, in my dreams.
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Ym1r
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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Good thing I didn't buy into Bant Snow in paper. I figured it would be banned or supplanted before FNMs would fire again, but I surely didn't expect it to happen by the next set release....

Now just to ponder how much it's worth building any of these companion lists, knowing full well the massive likelihood of getting banned themselves... :thinking:
Did I miss something? Did they ban Snow somehow?
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Any competitive printed Companion will be a must include on the basis of dodging interaction (discard) and starting the game on 8 cards.

Wizards knows this is bad design. Just like they knew the London Mulligan would be a negative for non-limited.

We have no reason to believe they test.
We have no reason to believe they will ban quickly.
I am inclined to believe that you are either straight up trolling at this point or you are just throwing unsubstantiated statements for the sake of it.

Why any competitive printed companion is a must ban? This makes no sense, we literally HAVE NOT seen the cards being played. You are claiming it is a bad design but actually say nothing to back this up.

I also do not see the London Mulligan as a negative. Actually, by this time, the only statements about London Mulligan being bad comes mainly from this thread from people trying to justify that modern is in perpetual %$#%. Other than that, the community seems pretty settled with London Mulligan being the thing.

We know they won't ban quickly, and you know what? That's GOOD. LET some cards play out. I am not saying they are not going to be banned, I am not saying they necessarily are healthy, but you, and anyone else discussing companion, have absolutely no data to back any claim up. Just wait to see how it plays out. If it proves your point, the you have data to back it up. If it doesn't then you won't look like fools. Just play, the freaking, game.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

There are many long time or former pro players that have come around to the fact that the London Mulligan is a mistake for all but Limited. I would go get the tweets, but I cant be bothered.

Any Companion that is actually competitive will need a ban because it fundamentally breaks some of the basic rules of the game. It IS just bad design, and if you look around you can find examples of other things which break basic rules of other games, and they are eventually seen to be a negative.

You can consider me as trolling, at this point I consider Maro/Aaron and Wizard's trolling.

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Ym1r
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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

Let's just ask them then to stop printing cards altogether. Stop the game now, play with the cards we have and be done with it. Since any powerful card is "too powerful, what were they thinking? ban it!" or any other card is "basically unplayable". At this point it just seems more than a beef rather than actual engagement with game design.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Yeah, you certainly could say they should simply stop printing cards, instead of going out of their way to print mechanics that break fundamental rules of the game.

Makes sense.

Is Assassin's Trophy a powerful card? Is Search for Azcanta a powerful card? How about Legion's Landing?
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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Let's just ask them then to stop printing cards altogether. Stop the game now, play with the cards we have and be done with it. Since any powerful card is "too powerful, what were they thinking? ban it!" or any other card is "basically unplayable". At this point it just seems more than a beef rather than actual engagement with game design.
I would say the conversation around these card has been pretty nuanced on here, no need to falsly simplify people's argument and brand them as ignorant. Yes, Lurrus has only been legal for a few days, but people are not only trying it out but also winning preliminaries/challenges with it. It's early, but the first impression is extremely overwhelming.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Good thing I didn't buy into Bant Snow in paper. I figured it would be banned or supplanted before FNMs would fire again, but I surely didn't expect it to happen by the next set release....

Now just to ponder how much it's worth building any of these companion lists, knowing full well the massive likelihood of getting banned themselves... :thinking:
Did I miss something? Did they ban Snow somehow?
Made irrelevant/supplanted by Companions.
Last edited by cfusionpm 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
I would say the conversation around these card has been pretty nuanced on here, no need to falsly simplify people's argument and brand them as ignorant. Yes, Lurrus has only been legal for a few days, but people are not only trying it out but also winning preliminaries/challenges with it. It's early, but the first impression is extremely overwhelming.
No room for nuance, it's either stop printing cards, or play everything and forget that Wizards does not test, and doubles down on not testing eternal formats.

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ThatStoryTeller
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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

I think this is just going to lead to a functional rule of. "You dont have access to a card outside the game unless a card effect from within the game allows it." I think the companions themselves are fine creatures, the consistency of the companion effect is the issue. I always thought the designation of a Companion slot would have been cleaner and easier to manage, because Modern is made better for the effects in some ways.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Let's just ask them then to stop printing cards altogether. Stop the game now, play with the cards we have and be done with it. Since any powerful card is "too powerful, what were they thinking? ban it!" or any other card is "basically unplayable". At this point it just seems more than a beef rather than actual engagement with game design.
I definitely respect your points and I reside in the middle somewhere, leaning more toward not creating cards that are busted.

Regarding Lurrus, many of the recent online MTGO tournaments have been filled with Lurrus. Every time I watch a streamer, people comment, "which Lurrus deck will you be facing now?" Part of that is new toys. People love new toys. Who doesn't? I certainly do. Part of this is that Lurrus is very, very powerful. I've seen what the card does on stream. Without even looking at the fact that it is an 8th card (like idSurge mentioned) that cannot be interacted with until in play, maybe it is then just like any other battlecruiser card where if you don't deal with it, then it wins games? Maybe it's fine and time will tell, but right now there is definitely some reason to be wary.

I like playing broken stuff. Still, I can appreciate a meta that doesn't change every time a new set in Magic is released. Eternal formats are being shaken up too much. I used to play Sneak Show in Legacy. I haven't played for 5 months now and I don't even know if that deck is viable anymore. Vintage is changing. Some of these changes are cool. It is nice to see formats that have been stale for so long see a bit of a change. But when it's too much too fast, that is very hard on people that want to remain competitive and not sell cards right before they get banned and keep switching decks. It's too much.
Last edited by FoodChainGoblins 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

It's one thing to print a broken card, its another to print an entire mechanic that is flawed conceptually, when viewed under the lens of 25 years of history, reinforcement, lessons learned, and basic premise of the game.

Just print the Power 9 again, who cares, stop being dinosaurs and learn to adapt!
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Tzoulis
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
I would say the conversation around these card has been pretty nuanced on here, no need to falsly simplify people's argument and brand them as ignorant. Yes, Lurrus has only been legal for a few days, but people are not only trying it out but also winning preliminaries/challenges with it. It's early, but the first impression is extremely overwhelming.
His sentiment is correct though. Pros have a long history of being wrong. Way more times than they were right. They dismissed Pjoenix, many called Jeskai Breach the new T0 deck etc.

Being so hyperbolic when the new most discussed cards are winning in the first days of a format isn't productive and only exacerbates the banmania. Decks haven't had the chance to adapt to new cards yet, because the new cards spawned strategies. I'm one of the people that think companions in general are overhyped. I could be wrong, and I'm open to be proven wrong, but it is way too early for either of us to make a safe judgement. I expect Companion to have the same fate as Infect, extremely polarizing where its proponents love it, and its detractors absolutely hate it.

I've seen people in our FB group that were fine with W6 and DRS in Legacy, mock and complain about Gyrouda or the bug, while defending LED and Reanimator. Those kind of arguments are solely based on feelings and don't help the rest or even Wizards understand where the playerbase stands at.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
don't help the rest or even Wizards understand where the playerbase stands at.
I asked today if they have a council of formats, like they have a council of colors, to kind of grant an expert oversight over Modern (and others) as they do for color identity.

They dont. :(

EDIT: I think its just unfortunate that the basic structure of the game, the starting hand, the mulligan, the rule of 4, the basic card types, and yes the land system, are so under appreciated. People dont even understand the qualities of the game.

If you continue to remove variance, mana system constraints, and enable repeatable lines of play you degrade the game.
Last edited by idSurge 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

The mechanic is definitely very flawed. I don't know why they decided to go for it, although I have my theories. I think with Companion, it's super, super tough to design a companion that would see play, but not be busted. Several wouldn't see play because of their restrictions and that would probably be deemed a failure as well.
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Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
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Limited - Will start when paper starts
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

What are your theories? Mechanically speaking it spits in the face of everything we have been told about the game's design for decades.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

With 2019+ design space:

You facilitate extremely greedy manabases with basic lands
Static hate cards don't affect you
The graveyard is your hand
You always start the game with exactly what you need
Meaningful deck building requirements do not exit
You start the game with an extra card, every time, that your opponent can't interact with.

Sweet.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Do you want to tag them? If you think that's bad, I can change that. @idSurge , @cfusionpm and other people that tend to monopole this forum, always want a better format, because it's "too unfair" and the "Do I have it" format and "F tron" and "two ships passing in the night unfair" and "drag race"?
Yeah, but was I wrong? lol
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ThatStoryTeller
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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

not looking too good to me anymore myself. Confidence in a product is needed, and thats been reduced every set the past few years. this is likely maro talking to keep his job, but the point has been clearly stated before, I have a specific tribal/strategy fan niche in faeries that makes modern more appealing, but I should just buy jittes and riptide labs and make that a casual deck at this point, and sell out of everything else.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Pauper is probably going to stay free of this stuff. Pity about Tron existing....
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

ThatStoryTeller wrote:
1 year ago
not looking too good to me anymore myself. Confidence in a product is needed, and thats been reduced every set the past few years. this is likely maro talking to keep his job, but the point has been clearly stated before, I have a specific tribal/strategy fan niche in faeries that makes modern more appealing, but I should just buy jittes and riptide labs and make that a casual deck at this point, and sell out of everything else.
Maro says "We aren't making new things stronger than cards already in those formats."

Jesus Christ. I think he actually believes this.

I guess 2019+ cards and archetypes are just seeing play because of hype, and not because they are objectively superior to just about everything else in 25 years of printing history. Nope. Definitely not stronger, definitely not supplanting dozens of existing archetypes across multiple formats.

Edit: WOW. Bauble spiked to $70 on MTGO, and MTGOTraders is buying them for $56. I'm offloading that sh*t IMMEDIATELY. I hate playing Shadow anyway, and I refuse to play Urza or these definitely-going-to-be-banned Companions. Hello $225 tix.
bauble.jpg

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

lurrus tcgplayer comments are like "is this a new burn staple?" lol

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
lurrus tcgplayer comments are like "is this a new burn staple?" lol
Many have equated it to Treasure Cruise for this very reason. Lurrus allows burn to get repeatable Prowess triggers with Bauble, and lets them replay their Guides, Swiftys, and Eidolons. Seems like a no-brainer. It's just too good not to play, and it WILL be banned.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

i'm starting to look at the modern challenge decklists... this is a lot to digest. im looking at the 7-0 dejoyjoe list with yorion, sky nomad. I was wondering if yorion sky nomad could be used in a kiki chord blink style deck but i guess emry, uro, and ice fang coatl do a reasonable impression.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Pretty sure the maker of the Youtube Video was on MTGSalvation, a Grixis Control/Midrange innovator.

Hard to disagree with his position.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

@gkourou: at the point where you are suggesting I am a "fanboy", I am done with this discussion. It is clear you are either fundamentally misunderstanding an argument I have now rephrased in 3 different ways, or just deliberately misrepresenting it for ulterior reasons. You have also failed to provide any citations/numbers for your own arguments (e.g. I ask you to cite the 90% number and you tell me to search MTGS for 2 million examples) and are now resorting to suggestive and outright personal attacks. For the final time and for the record, the only reason we are even in this argument is because you seem to have taken personal offense to me stating that Pioneer sees significantly less MTGO play than Modern right now. This is an assertion I backed up with 3 sets of numbers but you have tried to dispute with anecdotes and personal jabs. Because Pioneer is currently so much less played than Modern, we have no idea what the "true" Pioneer metagame will look like until Pioneer sees more play. That is literally all I was saying but you have exploded it into this wild series of personal attacks and misrepresentations.

I am not saying this makes Pioneer an objectively bad format, which is the suggestion you have read into it because you appear to have taken my comment personally. It literally just means the data is bad (bad attendance = bad data) so your claim that Pioneer is diverse is tainted by that limited data. If Modern had bad data now, I would say the exact same thing about Modern.
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