pretty sure its this one, but don't quote me
If this is the kind of mindset we're supposed to have, then WOTC needs to give me back Splinter Twin right f**king now.Cyanu wrote: ↑1 year agois Lurrus broken? yes, so what? after Hogaak, Urza, AA,Oko,VoS, OuaT and all that %$#% that entered modern the last couple of years he might not even be THAT bad
is Zyraga stupid? in std/pioneer probably, that's about it i'm afraid, modern and legacy have way more powerful stuff going on than 6 mana combos
Foxy <3 is problematic in legacy too but what's the broken card there? training grounds on feet or the ridiculous artifacts they designed 15+ years ago?
I don't think many people would have a problem with companion or any of the other new Modern cards over the last year if Wizards was rigorously testing them or even pretended to test them in nonrotating formats. But they don't seem to be doing even that in Standard and Limited, let alone Modern. Instead, we've had outrageously pushed design in 2019 and 2020 that led to more multi-format bans in a single year than basically any previous year we've seen in over two decades. Even if you count inaugural format bans ala 2011, that year saw 37 cards banned/restricted across formats (most in the new Modern format). 2019? ALSO 37 BANS!! That's just bananas and speaks to a completely cavalier design philosophy that appears to be putting bomb pack sellers before format balance. Companion is just the next entrant in this 1-2 year trudge of hyper-pushed format reshapers which aren't even acceptable in Standard.Cyanu wrote: ↑1 year agowhy all those hysterics about the companions really? especially by modern players of all people? you guys have survived a format with:
Storm, Dredge (for quite some time with Looting), Tron,Veil of Summer, Amulet Titan, Hogaak, Eldrazi, 8th-9th GODLIKE designs like bloom/bridge/boil <3 and the likes, t2 kills from Infect, t1 kills from neobrand, an unboltable DRS (with the crippling deckbuilding cost of playing snowlands-tell me how companion deckbuilding restrictions are too low!), TC/DTT with fetchlands/scour/bauble, Urza with Oko and Opal and the likes
I sincerely doubt Wizards considered Modern when they made any of these cards. If we were very lucky, it might have warranted a footnote in their design file. I'm sure General Kudro got some Modern consideration in his design notes, but I'm sadly confident the Modern talk stopped there. We already know Wizards barely tests for Standard and Limited, let alone Modern, and we already know Play Design has consistently failed to perform even their primary mandate of protecting those major formats from complete breakage. They missed Oko so badly that they even hid the Oko design notes from the public in their ELD M Files article. Even after Oko got approved, they then appeared to have spent much more time on Kroxa than Uro in their internal testing in a theoretical format where Oko would have been legal!Companions are an attemp to do just that: create powerful cards that you can greatly benefit lower tiered decks without slotting straight into t1 ones (hopefully) and that's why it's worth trying to explore the design space they open
Modern should never literally rotate sets. Full stop. I can't think of a surer way to hasten the format's death than arbitrarily ban sets, especially a recent set less than a year old, because some people don't think they are fun. I'm all for identifying legitimate Modern issues. But these offhanded suggestions for radical, unprecedented changes are simply unhelpful. Wizards should also stop artificially pushing new strategies by printing new nonsense every set, but just because Wizards needs to address that problem, doesn't mean we need to fully embrace rotation as an accepted part of Magic's most popular nonrotating format.gkourou wrote: ↑1 year agoHonestly, Modern needs a rotation. Old sets are awful and will keep breaking it over and over. WOTC also doesn't help. Maybe if MH, 8th and 9th edition and Veil of summer were banned, Modern would be better, but the format is really in a hopeless state. It's the beginning of the end.
A cursory check of Pioneer attendance on MTGO suggests this format sees SIGNIFICANTLY less play than Modern online. Since April started, Modern Prelims have averaged 33 players in the 3-2 or better pool with three events over 50 players in that bracket. For Pioneer prelims, the average is 21 with only two events even cracking 30 players at 3-2. Both pools also see Modern with more unique players than Pioneer: 287 vs. 170. On MTGO right now, there's a Modern League that ends on 06/24 and a Pioneer League that ends on the same date. The Modern League has 242 players with 1+ trophy. The Pioneer League has 79. If these numbers have even a slight correlation with Pioneer's overall MTGO popularity, I'm going to assume no one is seriously playing this format in any major capacity.Pioneer is in a much better shape and it's the future for Arena, which is a great platform to play. MODO sucks. They just banned a new companion because of a bug for a week. And also since the future of the game is digital, this another reason to try Pioneer. You should really try it. Wizards will also take care of it from now on. The games are also three times more interactive, fair, with no silly turn 0 kills, or effective turn 2-3 kills at all. The gap between Tier 2 and Tier 1 is also not that big. I have seen people doing good with grixis dragons, really. You can play anything and you won't do so bad.
We have no idea how many people would leave Modern either due to losing cards or even more uncertainty. This is an uncertain prospect at best, a disaster at worst, and either way probably not worth discussing when we have so many other topics to debate.gkourou wrote: ↑1 year agoFYI, I don't think Modern should rotate sets. I am speaking purely hypothetical. I don't want this to happen, sorry if it came off this way. I just said that if Modern didn't have those sets, more people like me, would play this otherwise horrendous format. MH is still making more harm than good for Modern.
If it's "absolutely hyperbolic and untrue," then show me numbers that suggest otherwise. Because from what I'm seeing and cited on the last page, Pioneer probably has somewhere around 33% - 50% fewer players than Modern. I doubt anyone is testing for any GPs/PTs or any other paper events at this point when the world is shut down. The next scheduled Modern GP is in late May, just 2 weeks before a Pioneer GP, and the May Modern PT are cancelled. By all measures I am seeing, the format is simply less popular by a large degree.Saying "no one is seriously playing Pioneer in any major capacity" is absolutely hyperbolic and untrue. Modern is supposed to be on it's full season, that would explain the numbers. People are supposed to be testing for GP's/PT's when covid ends. Plus, we are coming off of an ouat ban period. The metagame is almost solved and we know what's going to happen next.
We both agree that Pioneer is currently on track to be the future, but it has nothing to do with breakage and everything to do with Arena. Unless there's a major change or some statement that Modern too is coming to Arena, the format is likely a goner. I'm cautiously optimistic, however, because Wizards has added a few non-Pioneer cards to Arena so far; they could add more depending on demand.Why is Pioneer the future? Because it doesn't break so easily, because it will get Arena support and all the support from WOTC also. I highly expect more Pioneer than Modern GP's next year, for example.
We still agree on this. All formats, including Pioneer and Modern, will continue to suffer from significant and recurring issues until Wizards changes its design philosophy.
See I'm skeptical if the future of the game is digital as well. Digital card games(All of them including magic) have been on a massive decline for years, this shows the opposite trend of it being the future of the game. Not to mention no commander or real access to play that casual players like on arena makes me believe it has a more limited future than people think.gkourou wrote: ↑1 year agoI left Modern for the same reason. And the gap between Tier 1 and Tier 2.
Honestly, Modern needs a rotation. Old sets are awful and will keep breaking it over and over. WOTC also doesn't help. Maybe if MH, 8th and 9th edition and Veil of summer were banned, Modern would be better, but the format is really in a hopeless state. It's the beginning of the end.
Pioneer is in a much better shape and it's the future for Arena, which is a great platform to play. MODO sucks. They just banned a new companion because of a bug for a week. And also since the future of the game is digital, this another reason to try Pioneer. You should really try it. Wizards will also take care of it from now on. The games are also three times more interactive, fair, with no silly turn 0 kills, or effective turn 2-3 kills at all. The gap between Tier 2 and Tier 1 is also not that big. I have seen people doing good with grixis dragons, really. You can play anything and you won't do so bad.
We don't know the full set of reasons that explain the difference. You say it's these things. I say it's because people just don't really buy into the format right now. We're at an impasse in that regard until we have more information. But I know with confidence that a) there's a SIZABLE attendance difference from what I'm seeing on MTGO, and b) big attendance differences suggest less developed, less competitive, less iterated metagames. We've known this for years in Modern. Why would it be any different in Pioneer? If Pioneer's metagame remains healthy and diverse after it has a major attendance and event uptick, then your previous points will stand. Until then, I am totally unconvinced by the quality of our Pioneer data. I'm not going to bother revisiting this until attendance improves, data shows attendance is better than I'm seeing now, or we get bigger events.
I don't even think that last line is true anymore. Basically every new set in 2019 and 2020 have introduced major new players to Modern. Moreover, Wizards does need Modern in its competitive ecosystem. Pioneer needs to be the format where Standard cards graduate. Modern needs to be the nonrotating "replacement" for Legacy on Wizards' menu. Maybe 10 years from now we'll see Modern go away and Pioneer become the new Modern with some random new format becoming the new Pioneer, but that's so far away that it's not worth speculating on.And if you really expect Wizards to add 15,000 cards into Arena, at the time its taking them a whole year to add 3,000, thats not optimistic, but its also oneiric. Wizards also does not want modern to be the future because pioneer gets affected more than modern from the new cards.
You are assuming that all players, myself included, define a "good format" solely in its fairness. I don't want to play a strictly fair format. If I wanted to do that, I'd play exclusively Limited and just hope my opponent didn't open the set's proverbial Dream Trawler or Kiora Bests the Sea God. There's nothing more traditionally skill-testing and fair than a quality Limited matchup. But I, and probably many others, want to play powerful and efficient effects. I'd play Legacy to fulfill all of that but Legacy has virtually zero official support at this point. This leaves Modern.About modern's preference, its funny to compare a format thats full or frustrating moments and turn 1/2/3 kills with pioneer. Modern wasnt and isn't fair for many years. Pioneer is a fairer format by all metrics.
Again, we agree Pioneer is likely the way of the future. I'm pretty sure I've been saying just that since the hour Wizards announced Pioneer last year. I am just much less certain about that future than you are. Any number of announcements could bring Modern back into the spotlight, chief among them a commitment to bring Modern to Arena. If Wizards totally removed that from the table, then sure, Modern's guaranteed dead. But they haven't said that and until they do, I'm going to fight for what I view as the better format. Maybe not at any discrete moment in time, but the format with the better potential, card pool, and existing playerbase from all known measures I have seen.Pioneer will have arena support, and some more GPs. All it takes is this for wizards favourite format, or another series of bannings in modern, or MH2. Thats why modern is certain to be a goner. But not until they make their last quick bucks for MH2.
I'm not so sure. Wizards and even the Commander RC have said that they believe Commander is an unsustainable format and that it needs significant changes. We've seen Brawl fail as well as some other attempts.
You give them too much credit.Aazadan wrote: ↑1 year agoI'm not so sure. Wizards and even the Commander RC have said that they believe Commander is an unsustainable format and that it needs significant changes. We've seen Brawl fail as well as some other attempts.
I think they were hoping this could get people into a new Commander over time.
These are all SUCH weak takes.idSurge wrote: ↑1 year ago
They wanted to capitalize on Pokemon. Thats all this is. They wanted pokemon in the game. "I choose you Lurrus!"
Well, how can you ALWAYS be sure you have your pokemon card? Stick it in your sideboard, and let it be cast out of the board. No pesky discard, and we all know they have crapped on counters forever.
The fact the mechanic was already apparently present in Hearthstone (and banned!) is just hilarous.
They sold out. They dont care. They are willing to sacrifice the integrity of one of the worlds great games, for some cheap gimmick.
Do you have any statements by Wizards that any of the two claims are true? Because they seem to be doing quite ok with both printing new cards specifically for the format as well as being in contact with the community regarding the banlist/rules.
Modern attendance may fall away again. It tends to do that every year and that's fine. But that has nothing to do with what I'm arguing. I'm simply saying Pioneer has significantly worse attendance (33%-50% less by the three different MTGO sources I'm seeing) at this moment. I'm also saying, in turn, this means the metagame will have much less iteration and competition, and on average worse/less committed players playing in it. Finally, I'm saying this means we can't trust the current data because of the lack of relative competition/iteration. This is not a particularly radical take. You and I have literally said the same thing about Modern before when major events and high attendance isn't sharpening the format. There is no reason I can think of to assume Pioneer's metagame is representative of the "real" format right now given the lower attendance and lower iteration as a result of that attendance.gkourou wrote: ↑1 year agoI know it feels a little bit unfair to compare a format that was a ban-mess for over a year(kci into looting into bridge into hogaak into opal, lattice, oko into OuaT) and just going out of a major ban(OuaT), where this is the natural period to thrive/see it's numbers increase, with any other format. This is point #1. Modern was really good after Hogaak was banned, and 2 months after that, it was a hot mess. Modern was really good after the SFM unban, for a month, and then went into hot garbage(sorry for the vocabulary). Modern was great, after KCI was banned. And then it was a graveyard horror show for some months.
This is the period where modern is relatively unsolved(snow is moving into being the secret-no so secret best deck, as you wrote in your excellent metagame breakdown article), so this is the period where modern is going to see most of it's success, before falling into the dark side again, and people get bored of it and attendance drops.
It's not hyperbolic. I'm literally looking at the numbers showing a 33%-50% attendance difference between the two formats. The League numbers are particularly alarming because it suggests there are almost 3 times as many players in the Modern League as the Pioneer League, which suggests 3 times less iteration and total matches. Until that changes, neither you nor anyone else should have any confidence in Pioneer metagame statistics. Pioneer could be a totally solved 1-2 deck format and we wouldn't know it now because it sees significantly less play.Point #3
The numbers are not that far off as you make it to be, and I understand people jumping into Modern to play the format while it's unsolved, before they jump into another format again. Saying "no one is seriously playing Pioneer in any major capacity", without you saying that this is pseudo-happening right now, or without you knowing the difference is really not that big, or without you knowing we have seen such numbers change overnight, is hyperbolic. It's not 2000 vs 3500. Let's relax on this. Pioneer will be in the spotlight when it's next PT's happen during 2021, and I hope the Arena support will be a fact then. Those two reasons combined will make Pioneer the defacto non rotating format.
Speaking of hyperbole... Please cite a source that "90% of the players who can see in here, mtgs, and other fora scream about "Modern being unfair, a garbage fire with turn 3 kills" etc all the time." Unless you can find a source that actually shows 9 in 10 community members believe this, I'm calling complete BS on this statement. Your memory is also highly selective in this case because I vocally discussed UW Control and published a large amount of test data on the deck after playing it on MTGO. This is also a weak, almost shady argument that assumes I have a biased interpretation of Modern because of a few decks I vocalized playing in the past. It's vaguely insulting to suggest I have some hidden agenda towards less interactive, less fair decks that is totally out of alignment with the thousands of words I have written on the format in the past. Again, I think this is because you are feeling defensive of Pioneer and it is affecting your ability to have a reasonable debate.90% of the players who can see in here, mtgs and other fora scream about "Modern being unfair, a garbage fire with turn 3 kills" etc all the time. Just look most people here. You can't degine a good format, where you (as I can recall) were a cheerios player and would be to face a neobrand player or an infect one and rly hoping you draw your turn 2 kill before he does. If you really enjoy this, well, you can understand that's a little bit more weird than me enjoying a Pioneer UW control vs Niv game I played some days ago and it was a skilltesting game where even the tiniest of error was super important. How could this happen if I was playing Neobrand vs almost anything? Or one of the unfair decks. All of this is based on decks you used to like. I remember you were on cheerios, tron, ad nauseam(I have a good memory as you can see and am quite adept at looking up for information, hehe).
How am I living in a bubble? I feel like your normally sharp arguments are a lot less polished this time. I've been saying for literal months that Arena and Pioneer are probably going to kill Modern. I called Pioneer a significant threat to Modern about 10-15 minutes after the format got announced in October 2019. I posted my major 2020 article in direct response to mission drift into Pioneer identifying major long-term and even short-term threats to Modern's health. I've said more times than I can count on this forum that Pioneer is a major threat to Modern, that Arena is a major threat to Modern, and that barring some major changes to Wizards policy, Modern is DOA by 2021. Stop suggesting or outright saying that I'm living int his "bubble" where I blisfully believe Modern is fine and we're all going to be okay because Wizards is going to change course. I am acutely aware of the threat to Modern and have been aware of it since 10-15 minutes after they announced Pioneer. I'm just choosing to fight back against those pressures as much as I can. YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT. You can leave Modern and play Pioneer. But don't say I'm living in a bubble because I'm trying to improve Modern.I am looking that the other way. Any number of announcements will bring Pioneer back into the spotlight of being the #1 non-rotating format. Modern won't receive Arena support, and I will pm you when Wizards goes live saying this(if it was to have it, they would probably said so, just like they said it for Pioneer). Modern is certain to not take any Arena support. You can live in your bauble and believe it, but it won't happen.
Again, you can't trust the Pioneer data right now. Attendance is worse, there's little incentive to spike the metagame with secret, not-so-secret best decks, and those decks are probably unknown or underappreciated because of the lower attendance and lack of major events and well-attended MTGO events. When these change, we can revisit whether or not Pioneer is diverse.You viewing Modern as a better format, at the time I can no longer play a tier 2 strategy, because all tier 1 decks are that well tuned and can't be beat, while in Arena, I can 5-0 with grixis dragons or possibility storm is very dubious and I am almost certain that :