[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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FoodChainGoblins
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

A side topic, but I just wanted to be sure that people knew this - the very last set that Richard Garfield (the creator of mtg) worked on was Dominaria. And coincidentally, it was considered to be one of the last sets to be balanced very well.

I don't know if it is cost effective (my guess is no) for WotC to hire him to work on future sets, but I think it would be for the well-being and balance of the game. Like the Professor said, "it puts butts in the seats." And I personally believe that "butts in the seats" equates to "money in the pockets" of Hasbro CEOs.

*Also a question for all with some info preceding it. When MH was going to come out, many of us put certain cards on our dream list or that we felt could be reprinted. I pointed out that Baleful Strix would be a fine card, which even though I felt was fine on power level, I used UB being terrible in Modern at the time to be another reason for it being fine. Most people, if not all, said that Baleful Strix is "way too powerful" and will never be in Modern. Flash to the current meta, where Ice-Fanged Coatl is a solid card, but definitely not broken. Here is my question - is Baleful Strix still not okay for Modern, yet Ice-Fanged Coatl is okay? Why?

Does Ice-Fanged Coatl being in an even worse color combination at the time make it okay, or what differences in the cards make it okay?
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

UB is a terrible color combination in Modern and not having Flash makes it objectively worse than Ice-Fang. It's hilarious how much better FlashSnake is than Strix after so many times hearing how Strix is "too good" for Modern. People are terrible at evaluating cards, WOTC included.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago

It has nothing to do with being Tier 0

I would love nothing more than to never play Bant again, and instead play some URx build. But I can't do that unless I either play green (TemUroZa&6), or play something objectively weaker and worse.
That's what I meant to put it better. You can still technically play UR snap bolt deck. That's what others, like Tzoulis said. I can also. I would love a UR deck. But, you and most of people who wanted to play URx deck, just go into Bant, because UR lacks win con, which means it's worse. Which means you are sort of enjoying Modern, because Bant is a flashy deck(like UR is), but better.

Otherwise, you could always choose the bad flash-y deck(Jeskai, UR, etc). Right? Also, see your modern leagues going 2-3 or 3-2, or 4-1 in the best days(if you 5-0 with Jeskai you are a real hero and it can only be done every now and then).
If there was a reasonable win condition available to URx that wasn't "hope these fragile 2/1s and some Bolts get there" I'd be all over it. What are the options? Keranos and cross your fingers? Ral, Izzet Viceroy? Some other clunky 5 drop that is useless once removed?

But more or less that is accurate. However, I don't even play Leagues. I have had the most enjoyment of this format when I am no longer playing for money (or wasted time). Nothing gives me better peace of mind than being able to right click --> concede to whatever obnoxious bulls**t has a nut draw start, and just move on with my life. This has been especially apparent against Tron, in which I have yet to win a game on the draw yet. With London Mull, T3 Tron is virtually guaranteed, as well as backup Maps and Scryings to replace the Fielded piece. Don't forget those main deck Relics that make my Uros unplayable!

Most of my frustrations with Modern came from carving out 6+ hours of a very busy schedule to drive, sit, and play 5 rounds of FNM. When 2-4+ of those rounds are hideous, obnoxious, wastes of time, I have a hard time justifying playing this game at all. Too many games devolve into a series of yes/no checks to determine winner: Did you do your thing? Y/N. Did I draw my hate card? Y/N. Did you draw your anti-hate card? Y/N. It feels like it removed so many meaningful decisions, as the only choices that actually mattered were in building a sideboard and how far to mulligan. When combined with the money and time lost to these horrid experiences, I was extremely down on the format. Once I moved to MTGO free play rooms, I have had considerably better and more enjoyable experiences. Not because the sh*tstorm of misery doesn't happen, but that I don't have to let it bother me, because I don't lose anything as a result (time or money). In theory, this should also let me play worse decks, but I can tell you that jamming mediocre, clunky decks that aren't very powerful and are easily defeated isn't very fun, even when free.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
A side topic, but I just wanted to be sure that people knew this - the very last set that Richard Garfield (the creator of mtg) worked on was Dominaria. And coincidentally, it was considered to be one of the last sets to be balanced very well.
There was a tweet on this, from one of the members of the Dominaria team. I'll see if I can find it but essentially some subtle shade being thrown at Wizards post Dom design/dev outlook.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I think Ice-Fang Coatl, at the same time where a broken cards like Arcum's Astrolabe exists, is strictly better. I also think Baleful strix is 100% fine for Modern, and would not be played too much. Since you have coatl and labe, everybody would just prefer the best option, the Coatl. If Astrolabe gets banned, this changes.
The Artifact interactions on Baleful Strix make it a significantly stronger card than Coatl. I can't imagine what this thread would sound like if suddenly those Strix's were playing with Emry and Urza or Engineer and suddenly digging into them, casting them from the GY, and welding them in and out all while possibly tapping for mana too. That's without considering Astrolabe.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I think Ice-Fang Coatl, at the same time where a broken cards like Arcum's Astrolabe exists, is strictly better. I also think Baleful strix is 100% fine for Modern, and would not be played too much. Since you have coatl and labe, everybody would just prefer the best option, the Coatl. If Astrolabe gets banned, this changes.
The Artifact interactions on Baleful Strix make it a significantly stronger card than Coatl. I can't imagine what this thread would sound like if suddenly those Strix's were playing with Emry and Urza or Engineer and suddenly digging into them, casting them from the GY, and welding them in and out all while possibly tapping for mana too. That's without considering Astrolabe.
Emry, Lurker of the Loch shouldn't be legal either. What, we're going to automatically exclude Baleful Strix because of Emry? Will Mishra's Bauble, Aether Spellbomb, and Engineered Explosives all meet their demise at the hands of Emry?

Welding them via Goblin Engineer is no stronger than what Goblin Welder does in Legacy, which is seeing about 0 play. It is too slow. Yes, it is an engine, no stronger than Mystic Sanctuary and every single good Instant/Sorcery in Modern or Uro.

*These are the same arguments that got Mox Opal banned over Urza, Lord High Artificer. Do you know what I saw the other day? Someone mentioned that Mishra's Bauble has been a problem in Modern for a long time now and with Emry being in print, it should be banned NOW. Gitaxian Probe was banned and regarded by Wizards as one of the biggest offenders ever in Modern. There was at least some reason why they left Mishra's Bauble and for that matter, Street Wraith, legal. Now all of a sudden, it is a problem? Does anyone look at any of the new cards being printed and consider them? (And I realize that people here do; there is a lot of talk here about poor design in recent sets. I'm not aiming that at anyone in particular.)

**Besides, obviously Baleful Strix is good with 2019-2020 designs. I'm talking about before Modern Horizons came out. People said that Baleful Strix was too good. They brought up Kologhan's Command. There was no Urza, Emry, Underworld Breach, Veil, T3feri, or any of that %$#%$#% at the time. For reference, it was when UR Phoenix was the deck to beat. R Prowess and Dredge were the other top tier decks.
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Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

What does Strix offer to Emry decks? What does it add that it doesn't already have available to it through a plethora of 0-1 cost artifacts?

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
This right here is the forest and most of us here seem to agree that the gap between Tier 1 and Tier 2 are larger than it was ever. What you are saying is not true (at least for me and for some other posters here).
It's not all black & white. What do I mean? During 2015, you could play a deck like Merfolk and win GP's. Actually, up until 2017, Merfolk won a GP each year. I also remember Nikachu top-8-ing a GP, the one that was dominated by GDS, winning vs Sam black in the semi finals and losing vs Utter Leyton in the finals. Again; it's not about Merfolk only.
It's about the current Modern format creating this very problem. If you choose to play Merfolk or Grixis Control or Abzan Midrange or even Jund midrange in a GP, it's almost impossible to take it down.
During the twin era, you could.
Between those years and now we have over 3 years of new sets. Saying that Modern is bad because Merfolk or Abzan Midrange or random T2 (or lower) can't win events is nonsensical. Because, first it's not true, even now T2 decks can get up there. 5C Niv just destroyed 4 events. RG Midrange has been dominating the last few big online events. Humans is making a comeback. Some keep posting results with U-Tron. Saying that you can't do well with T2 strategies anymore is absurd.

Secondly, old decks are not owed a place in the T1 or T2 because they were before. Other decks rise and replace them. Merfolk has been a weird choice for years, and was at its best during Twin, after that it was semi-playable because there was no Uxx deck to prey upon. It winning an event is still not relevant in the general scheme, because it was replaced by Humans and Spirits. That doesn't make Modern bad now, it's just the nature of new cards getting printed or that the meta is hostile to one tribe or since Humans are essentially 5C they can find solutions for any specific metagame.

Hinging your argument on the glory days of past decks is bad. If you wanted to play midrange back in Twin's era you went either Jund or Abzan. Yet that era was the "golden era" of midrange? Give me a break. Now you can play UW Stoneblade, 4C, Bant, Jund and Mardu and however you wanna classify 5C Niv. To varying degrees of success, but there are many more options than then. Control is also alive and well, Big Mana and Combo are on the downswing, 2 archetypes that people have consistently complained about. Astrolabe enabled most, if not all, of that.

You may not like the cards/decks, and that may inform your opinion, but it's just that, your opinion. There are issues with Modern now, namely the power differential, Veil and T3feri, but that doesn't make the format objectively bad.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
It's only natural to love Modern if you played Mox Opal decks, Urza decks, E tron decks, Titan decks and you are into an Astrolabe deck now. The problem with modern is that it becomes unsatisfying when you are on decks like Merfolk, Grixis Midrange/Control, Naya Zoo, Abzan midrange, Abzan Company, Mardu Midrange, Chord of calling decks, Elves, Blue Moon. So, here it probably is.
I love Modern now, even though I hate that they banned Opal. I stilled had major success at my store with Grixis Whirza. I even did a 4-0 with an Azorius Delver deck I found online. Again, metagames change. If you expect to find year after year the same decks at the top there a few things are happening:

1. Those decks are absolutely dominating.
2. New sets have no impact whatsoever on the metagame. IE no T2 decks or lower can ever hope to rise to the top.

So stop with the glorification of the olden days. With new cards entering in the pool, old cards are bound to become obsolete, new decks will have the critical mass of cards to finally function and new ideas will be explored. That's a healthy format. Not a format were years upon years, your deck is expected to stay T1 or even T2. It shows that they're above the rest and nothing can challenge them.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
A side topic, but I just wanted to be sure that people knew this - the very last set that Richard Garfield (the creator of mtg) worked on was Dominaria. And coincidentally, it was considered to be one of the last sets to be balanced very well.
While Dom was great (Teferi not withstanding), the 2 Ravnica sets were pretty awesome as well.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Does Ice-Fanged Coatl being in an even worse color combination at the time make it okay, or what differences in the cards make it okay?
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
UB is a terrible color combination in Modern and not having Flash makes it objectively worse than Ice-Fang. It's hilarious how much better FlashSnake is than Strix after so many times hearing how Strix is "too good" for Modern. People are terrible at evaluating cards, WOTC included.
Strix would help Grixis Whirza by introducing loops with Goblin Engineer and with Esper/Grixis Control getting their awesome blocker in place. The major upside of the Snake though is that it can be flashed. Also, Strix could have helped more midrange versions of artifact decks while Opal was alive, but that dream is dead.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
If there was a reasonable win condition available to URx that wasn't "hope these fragile 2/1s and some Bolts get there" I'd be all over it. What are the options? Keranos and cross your fingers? Ral, Izzet Viceroy? Some other clunky 5 drop that is useless once removed?
I mean, Through the Breach and/or Polymorph are reasonable finishers (the latter less so). It's just that the whole shell is lacking in removal/coutners/tempo/value plays.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
What does Strix offer to Emry decks? What does it add that it doesn't already have available to it through a plethora of 0-1 cost artifacts?
Those that play Green? Nothing really, however those that play Engineer get a good block/cantrip. There's also the fact that Strix can be used in non-Green control/midrange shells. If you wanna go wild, think Grand Architect-Blue Steel kind of decks :P

Without Opal, Strix is probably irrelevant, since there's no incentive to go big on artifacts anymore. A card like Breya might could probably change that, but I doubt they're ever gonna consider such a card for Modern.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

People are losing sight of some things here that are probably only understood under a long view.

I honestly wonder what the % of today's Modern players even played pre-Eldrazi. Modern, and really Magic, is simply finally under a completely new paradigm.

Look at the original Theros block. Now look at today's sets. Dominaria was a throw back, intentionally so and in more ways than having Garfield and Dominaria as the setting.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

I got a good laugh out of that one. The fear of Tezzerator and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas's strangehold on Modern. There was no Tier 1 artifact deck other than Affinity and Scales when Mox Opal was legal. Thopter/Sword. How does Baleful Strix make Thopter Sword better? There's too much irrational fear over decks that are not good, while not caring in the slightest about decks that are overpowered. Do not bring up Grand Architect. I wasted $4 on 8 foil copies of that long ago and have chalked it up as a $4 loss ... well, long ago. It has no potential, so I'm fine having it in my bulk now.

The decks that have gone big on artifacts are KCI, which got banned, and Affinity and Scales (Affinity).

I guess it's just the same old argument that Tezzerator will be Tier 0 and we cannot have that. Meanwhile, Urza, Emry, and Uro are all fine. I do not even know where to go from here...

*And yes, I understand that for some time there was a fear of Lantern type decks becoming too good because those are annoying as %$#%. But I fail to see how Baleful Strix meaningfully adds to those types of lists more so than some other 10 cards that they have access to. For example, if you ban Ensnaring Bridge and allow 5 different Baleful Strix printed in MH2 with 5 different names (yes, up to 20 copies played in any deck), then these fail to be a deck. Baleless Strix, Bale Strix, Christian Bale Strix, Christian Baleful Strix, and Balefuller Strix.

**Also remember that before Sword of the Meek got unbanned, when Lantern Control was actually Tier 1 or close, Aaron Forsythe tweeted that Sword of the Meek cannot be unbanned because it will be too good in Lantern. A half year later, someone realized that this was utter %$#%$#% and Lantern never adopted Sword, other than a few rogue lists very rarely.
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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
What makes Bant good is twofold: 1) Ability to stabilize and 2) Ability to win quickly(though can be inconsistenc) once stable. For 1, this comes down to great value engines around Cryptic/Mystic and Uro life-gain, along with PWs to buy time, add value, and soak up damage that might otherwise go to face. 2 is not as good, but once an Uro is actually on the battlefield, games are over fairly fast. Not Twin fast, but still pretty good, assuming your Uros don't get exiled, then... winning is slow and tiresome. If you win at that point, it's usually opponent outright conceding to 2nd or 3rd Cryptic/Mystic loop.

Jeskai and Grixis have none of that, mostly because the primary tools to help stabilize and win (FlashSnake and Uro) are not available to those colors, and the alternatives are just plainly not good. FlashSnake is likely the best blocker available to Uxx, and Uro being a repeatable threat + life gain engine makes it irreplaceable. Jeskai and Grixis still have the same problems they always did: their win conditions suck.
Adding to that: Bant has access to Veil of Summer, which is another huge buff for it (and a blow to Grixis especiall).

I'd say that especially Grixis has got some good cards that also work well together (Drown in the Loch and Into the Story need the same resource), but you are absolutely right: our threats suck.

Choosing a decent threat suite is always the most difficult question when playing grixis control, because most threats really do suck. What am I going to do with Vendilion Clique when opp casts T3feri/Uro for the same mana? What am I gonna do with Tasigur when opp is on Uro? Am I willing to play a massively worse version of Uro and run Kroxa?

It's probably pretty illustrative what I have settled on: Young Pyromancer. Why? because it's an extremely low-investment card with a very high celiling. It's very easy to cast at 1R, it doesn't rely on my graveyard, gets cast through Blood Moon/Magus. YP dies to everything from Bolt to Push to Path to Wrenn. But I don't really care about that because I don't really stand to lose anything when it dies, it's a clean 1for1 (apart from Wrenn pinging it).

The point is, all the treats available are so mediocre that their value is not worth the risk (tapping out, being vulnerable to gy hate, removal etc) so Young Pyromancer is my "don't care if it dies, probably win if it lives" card.

Uro is more like "It can't really die, so I take no risk when investing in casting it, and it always wins eventually, or at least keeps me alive", Path and gy hate being the exception.

Imagine if Young Pyromancer had escape. The madness! and it would probably still be worse than Uro.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
While Dom was great (Teferi not withstanding), the 2 Ravnica sets were pretty awesome as well.
I think broadly speaking we are reasonable folks, what is your issue with Teferi?
TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
Uro is more like "It can't really die, so I take no risk when investing in casting it, and it always wins eventually, or at least keeps me alive", Path and gy hate being the exception.
Uro is actually hilarious.

What are the resources of this game?

Mana
Life
Cards

What does Uro provide?

Ramp - Mana
Life Gain
Cards - Both in the hand (Draw 1) and in the GY waiting to return, and when it does, it does it again!

Its a cosmic level joke that anyone could even think that it was OK. Compare that to our 5 Mana Teferi in UW land...and tell me which is 'balanced'.
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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Uro is actually hilarious.

What are the resources of this game?

Mana
Life
Cards

What does Uro provide?

Ramp - Mana
Life Gain
Cards - Both in the hand (Draw 1) and in the GY waiting to return, and when it does, it does it again!

Its a cosmic level joke that anyone could even think that it was OK. Compare that to our 5 Mana Teferi in UW land...and tell me which is 'balanced'.
I actually had a pretty long discussion the other day about Uro and Oko: the question was what card was actually better, which is on it's face an absurd question because Oko was broken obvious to all and banned, and Uro is just hanging around and for the most part, not being discussed as a potential ban.

We came to the conclusion that while on the one hand Uro is theoretically harder to play in a deck because of it's casting cost and needing 5 other cards in your gy, in the deck that can easily run it (and Astrolabe pretty much ensures that 100%), it is arguably even better than Oko. It provides similar value (life, a threat, recurring value), but instantly, is a huge blocker and can be a much faster clock than Oko. And of course, it ramps, which is a huge deal. I don't understand how they also tacked a land drop on that card. It's completely mental.

I feel like people were relieved that Oko was gone, and then Uro came along and conciously or not, people went like "oh %$#%, not again... oh well I guess UG still have the best 3drop in the game" and kinda... moved on? Not really, because we are still talking about Uro, but not the way we were talking about Oko. TBH, I think that would be warrented.

And if people make the argument: well if Uro wasn't Uro, UG decks wouldn't be viable, my question would be: if the best deck in modern lives and dies by one single card, isn't that the definition of a ban-worthy card?

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I actually think if not for Covid %$#%$#%, Uro would be 100% on the road to getting banned by now. The card is obscene. I think that article where they said 'listen..oko, we get it we messed up...but...the next sets are powerful' was done to kind of set people up to accept that there would be stupid cards in the pipeline.

I mean they printed a better Yawgmoth's Will for the love of god.

As it is, nobody %$#% cares, because the reality is our world is not going to get back to normal for another year, if ever, and people are struggling with keeping that thought out of their minds. :p
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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

just taking a look at Bant Snow decks: if we look at the JtmS/BBE unban as a kind of pivotal moment in modern: Those 2 cards were unbanned in February of 2018, thats a little over 2 years ago. Modern is 9 years old, its oldest edition was released in 2003.

Out of 35 non-land cards, a standard Bant Snow control list, right now the best deck in modern by a mile, runs exactly 10 cards older than the JtmS/BBE unban (2xLeak, 2x Cryptic, 4x Path, 2x Verdict). The deck is basically a Modern Horizons deck + Teferis, Jace and Uro. They can't print better removal/wraths than path/verdict and they won't/shouldn't print better counters than cryptic, so there you go.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
just taking a look at Bant Snow decks: if we look at the JtmS/BBE unban as a kind of pivotal moment in modern: Those 2 cards were unbanned in February of 2018, thats a little over years ago. Modern is 9 years old, its oldest edition was released in 2003.

Out of 35 non-land cards, a standard Bant Snow control list, right now the best deck in modern by a mile, runs exactly 10 cards older than the JtmS/BBE unban (2xLeak, 2x Cryptic, 4x Path, 2x Verdict). The deck is basically a Modern Horizons deck + Teferis, Jace and Uro. They can't print better removal/wraths than path/verdict and they won't/shouldn't print better counters than cryptic, so there you go.
Thats exactly it. Its the race to the bottom type design where you literally get to a point where nothing else can be printed. I mean look at how many cards we have, and your telling me we cant build a non-green deck to fight this? Well...no, we cant, not in the control space, because of Veil of Summer.

Every time I look at it, and try and solve the puzzle, that card just sits there, and its a non-starter.

Veil needed to be banned, and without competitive play to prove it, it will just sit there like a cancer.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
While Dom was great (Teferi not withstanding), the 2 Ravnica sets were pretty awesome as well.
I think broadly speaking we are reasonable folks, what is your issue with Teferi?
I think his issue was for Standard and he's not wrong. Teferi, Hero of Dominaria never should have allowed for tucking himself in order to never deck out once a lock was done. I think they changed the oracle text so that it would not be allowed anymore if I'm not mistaken. Even if a card is fine for Modern, Standard is the focus with Standard sets, so they must be okay there firstly.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

As per the Mystic Sanctuary discussion. One is always free to concede.

And the Oracle update was to the +1, you may untap up to, instead of 'Untap 2 Lands'.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
And the Oracle update was to the +1, you may untap up to, instead of 'Untap 2 Lands'.
I must have remembered wrongly. So, the tuck then always has been allowed? (I thought I remembered that being a problem, but it must have been made up in my head, lol)
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Yes, its always been allowed, and if you were losing to that loop, and I beat many a player with it on Arena, you could simply concede because there was literally no chance of winning, outside of a clock in MTGO.

Further, I've been looking at what TheBoulderer was saying, and looking at Uro further.

Why is it a 6/6? Why does its mega Growth Spiral trigger on ETB and Attack? How is this card even defensible to see print in Standard?

Meanwhile, Dream Trawler, sure it has some self protection, but its a 5/5 (functionally, when it attacks), and it does nothing on ETB for a massive 6 cmc, and 4 color pips, just like the Escape on Uro.

Dream Trawler, make no mistake, is a busted card, but it looks like absolute trash, compared to Uro.

The mind absolutely boggles, at the level of mistakes being made at Wizards.

If you are not playing Bant, and you want to pretend you can play Control, you are handicapping yourself.
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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Further, I've been looking at what TheBoulderer was saying, and looking at Uro further.

Why is it a 6/6? Why does its mega Growth Spiral trigger on ETB and Attack? How is this card even defensible to see print in Standard?

If you are not playing Bant, and you want to pretend you can play Control, you are handicapping yourself.
I was actually asking myself what standard looks like with Uro. But I care so absolutely 0 for that format that I didn't even care to look^^

I am pretending really really hard I can play Grixis Control and not completely knock myself out. Oh well, the victories are all the sweeter, and amazingly, people love facing it and are seldom salty when they lose, saying what a cool deck. Sorry if I'm bragging a bit, but it really happens. I feel like people really like the archetype, and it is amazingly fun to pilot to be sure. Also, people frequently apologize when they cast Veil of Sommer against me. That can't be a good sign hahaha. Of course, they'd never ever touch Grixis Control seriously because after all is said and done, it's trash compared to the top decks, especially when you haven't been jamming it the past 4 years straight. It's pretty impossible to just pick up.

EDIT: OHHH HELLLL I JUST LOOKED AT THE STANDARD METAGAME.

19% Bant Uro

8% Sultai Uro

7% Temur Uro.

This is seriously the funniest %$#% I've seen in a while.
Last edited by TheBoulderer 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Grixis is a deck that is simply 'fair' its hard for people to salt out over it, or disrespect it, because it just...play's magic.

I was going to play it in Legacy, until I realized my car is cheaper than it would cost to buy the lands. :D

I dont even look at Uro from the prism of Standard. I just mean 'Standard is not powered to the point of Modern and Legacy...so how?' The card is flat out unacceptable, like someone should be reprimanded over it, as it's existence actively degrades the game.

EDIT: Blah blah MTGGoldfish is bad data, but look at the meta breakdown.

Per MTGGoldfish.

Standard Top: Bant Midrange
Pioneer 2nd: Sultai Delirium
Modern Top: Bant Control
Legacy 2nd: 4C Oko

Total Uro: 4 + 4 + 3 + 2 (3 Oko)

Card's %$#% busted.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Yes, its always been allowed, and if you were losing to that loop, and I beat many a player with it on Arena, you could simply concede because there was literally no chance of winning, outside of a clock in MTGO.

Further, I've been looking at what TheBoulderer was saying, and looking at Uro further.

Why is it a 6/6? Why does its mega Growth Spiral trigger on ETB and Attack? How is this card even defensible to see print in Standard?

Meanwhile, Dream Trawler, sure it has some self protection, but its a 5/5 (functionally, when it attacks), and it does nothing on ETB for a massive 6 cmc, and 4 color pips, just like the Escape on Uro.

Dream Trawler, make no mistake, is a busted card, but it looks like absolute trash, compared to Uro.

The mind absolutely boggles, at the level of mistakes being made at Wizards.

If you are not playing Bant, and you want to pretend you can play Control, you are handicapping yourself.
My "problem" with Dom Teferi was that it was overbearing for Standard. It's self tuck was missed by WotC if I remember correctly. I don't care that much for Standard, but it was highly annoying.

I think Uro, along with Kroxa, are 6/6 both for flavor (Greek Titans were (far) stronger than the gods themselves) reasons and functional reasons. They had to be relevant enough to want to escape them and then attack without worrying it getting killed mid combat. A 4/4 won't really be that good at attacking, and generally keywords are stronger than pure stats. I think they considered the cost of casting + escaping significant enough to justify the statline and the effect.

The bigger problem is that they put Krassis, Nissa, Oko and Uro in the same Standard. I don't think he'd be such an issue without Nissa/Krassis.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Within Standard? Maybe not.

However when you look across the spectrum of competitive Magic it is unquestionably clear that Uro is a mistake nearing Oko levels of impact.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
EDIT: OHHH HELLLL I JUST LOOKED AT THE STANDARD METAGAME.

19% Bant Uro

8% Sultai Uro

7% Temur Uro.

This is seriously the funniest %$#% I've seen in a while.
During the quarantine, I have even more time in front of a computer than normal, and that's saying a lot. I've been getting into watching twitchtv.com a LOT more and I've followed tons of modern streamers recently. For reference, I followed exactly 1 streamer before the quarantine. I am often bored and looking for Modern content to watch, but I can't find it. I decide to tune into a Standard (Arena) stream. After a few minutes of watching Growth Spiral, Aether Gust, and Uro with a dash of planeswalkers, I quickly tune out of the stream. It's boring, seeing the same thing over and over again. And after seeing Temur Adventures win at the DreamHack Anaheim, I played it and admitted that it was damn fun. No more. I wouldn't touch Standard with a 10 ft. pole.

But as idSurge brought up, it's so much more than that. Pioneer, Modern, FREAKING Legacy. I enjoy Legacy so much and to ruin the sanctity of the game, watching Astrolabes, Veils, and Uros all around ... it's bloody boring (and that word is not even in my vocabulary). It may not be quite on Oko levels of people hating it more than they like it yet, but it will get there.

*For reference, I love playing Legacy. If the quarantine was magically over and it was safe to venture out, let's say there was a Legacy Staples tournament on the weekend. The deck I used to play was Sneak Show (and I realize there's hate for that deck as well). But I would not touch that deck right now at Comp REL - I would give in and play 5 color Snow Control and get ready for the mirrors. For non mirrors, I would be fully prepared to slaughter them. :evil laugh
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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