[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
why don't the people who like u/w control just move to bant snowblade?
Because its not a Control deck. That's like asking why UR Control/Tempo players dont just play Storm.
UR Control UR

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Neobrand won the PTQ today apparently.
UR Control UR

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 816
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Neobrand won the PTQ today apparently.
:?

From what I heard, there were 1-2 in the top 8 of the most recent online Super PTQ (I watched one fizzle in the top 8 vs. Mono Blue Tron).
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

UR Control UR

User avatar
Ed06288
Posts: 160
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

snowblade is a little more on the midrange spectrum because of ice-fang coatl but it has a lot of overlap with control decks.

ptq? i thought paper events were cancelled for the time being?

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
why don't the people who like u/w control just move to bant snowblade?
First of all, I wouldn't touch Trashforge Mystic with a 10-foot pole. Because second, Bant Snow (with extra counters, walkers, and interaction) is just better. Never once have I ever thought in any games I have played with Snow "you know, I really wish this otherwise-useful card was a STONEFORGE MYSTIC instead!"

But there are subleties to it as well, with the two big ones being 1) Principle and 2) Cost.

For principle, it's mostly a grindy midrange deck than a control/reactive/tempo deck. The notable thing that I can't stand is how utterly bad Snapcaster Mage is in this deck. His only purpose is to Snap back counters. That's it. Your cantrips are all creatures or artifacts. There's also the complete inability to have any meaningful reach, due to lack of Bolts or any way to close out games effectively if they are able to take care of your Uro. Games take FOREVER most of the time, but not in a fun way. More of a "spinning my wheels staying alive and buying time until my win condition finally comes around." Now, I can generally get behind this because it makes me feel like my in-game decision trees have so many more options and so much more variety (especially when combined with Mystic Sanctuary and modal spells like Charm and Cryptic). But I still greatly miss the days where I could just get things over with and win once I have established control, instead of durdling around another 5 or 6 turns, protecting my PW or attacking with Uro.

For cost, Uro is a $50 mythic and you need somewhere between 2 and 4 of them (most lists run 3). If you're playing online, you also need 3-4 FlashSnakes, which each run about $25 a piece (despite a $5 paper price). Plus, most Uxx players have some kind of unnatural hatred to green, and may or may not own the manabases to facilitate Bant. This is me in paper (though, luckily MTGO lands are relatively cheap). I have everything on earth needed to make any Jeskai, Esper, Grixis, or UR manabase. But to add green? Hundreds of dollars needed just for the Mistys and shocks. It can be incredibly expensive to make the jump to Bant (on TCG Player, its $430 for 3 Uro, 4 Snakes, 4 Mistys, 2 Breeding Pools, 1 Temple Garden), and that's assuming you already have the Jaces, Teferis, and all existing UW staples.

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 1945
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Contact:

Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

@idSurge

nice, thanks for that info. So neobrand is still alive and strong.
Image
AnimEVO 2020 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

User avatar
Ed06288
Posts: 160
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

cost is a fine argument, i'm glad i'm not the only one with this problem. i was afraid you wouldn't play it simply because it had more midrange elements and were hung up on old playstyles. for me personally, i'll play any deck that is "heavy" or has decent top decking power. control, jund, tron ect.

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 816
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge

nice, thanks for that info. So neobrand is still alive and strong.
Yep, nice twitter shot of matchups as well. It looks like Matsugan played against only 1 deck with a lot of countermagic, including Force of Negation and lost (Bant Control 1-2). That's pretty amazing.

Before the quarantine, I had been looking into jumping back into Neoform, as it seemed fairly well placed. There are always people online who are going to run it at comp events, like finalnub and matsugan (sometimes).
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
cost is a fine argument, i'm glad i'm not the only one with this problem. i was afraid you wouldn't play it simply because it had more midrange elements and were hung up on old playstyles. for me personally, i'll play any deck that is "heavy" or has decent top decking power. control, jund, tron ect.
It's not what I'd prefer to be doing (Snap/Bolt), but it's probably the most fun I've had in several years. I can't wait to have another deck ripped away thanks to an inevitable Astrolabe or Uro ban.

Aazadan
Posts: 516
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
There is a reason (mistaken as it is/was) that people thought only '1 or 2 cards from a set' ever made it to Modern. When set's where properly designed, we were able to retain identity within the format.

When cards are absolutely busted across an an entire set, we ended up with Oko running through 4+ formats and needing to be banned in all of them.

I can 100% accept that their design method changed, and is flawed, and if we can read the tea leaves from Sam's twitter, 2020 and beyond will be just as rough.
I'm hesitant on reading too much into it, because he wouldn't be allowed to say if the approach was good/bad or their plans on changing it, and it seems he was working on some sort of stand alone product, possibly commander decks or a summer set. But, it's definitely an approach that isn't working.

User avatar
TheAnnihilator
RedFacedMenace
Posts: 216
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: US
Contact:

Post by TheAnnihilator » 1 year ago

A few quick notes:

First, to @Tzoulis since you sourced mtgtop8 earlier, this source is wholly unreliable for data on control decks because endless amounts of Esper, Jeskai, and 4c control and midrange decks get lumped in under the guise "UW Control", even in cases where a more fitting name exist (Jeskai control is the premier example of this, but Esper is also like this despite being less prevalent). To truly find the Jeskai or Esper decks on top8, you have to do a search for decks playing specific cards like Colonnade and ECharm or Helix or whatever.

Secondly, to speak to Bant Snow Control (Stoneblade is distinctively midrange and also worse), in proxying it to playtest vs various archetypes for tourney practice before Corona, the deck really does play more like control than midrange despite its looks — this coming from someone who plays almost exclusively decks that are "draw go" with only Jace/T5f and Verdict as sorceries. So those of you control players with a distaste for green, now might be a time to hang it up and test Bant out (but I'd skip the Stoneforges, as I know you won't like them haha).

To speak to everyone else as to why Bant isn't generally the clear solution to the meta for control players, there are several reasons. Green aversion in control players is real (though unwarranted), and it's honestly a big reason why Bant isn't in good taste to a lot of us — traditionally, Bant "control" has always actually been a midrange pile with cards like Spell Quellers, Nobles, Goyf, EWit, etc. Secondly, cost is a very real factor as well — I actively want to play Bant, and even though I already own Misties (had them for Twin, kept them for Kiki), I just can't go and buy Uro like that. Bant is a hefty investment right now, and it's significantly worse online. This also leads me into point 3: what happens if you invest in Bant and Astrolabe gets banned? Ice Fang is unplayable without Labe, mark my words, and as much as I hate to admit it, ktk is right to say that control is good right now because astrolabe fixes both the fight in manabase with Field of Ruin and also, equally as important, it allows you to seamlessly run as many as 2-3 Mystic Sanctuary. Though Labe is sort of a crutch at the moment, I don't know if I really want to see it banned, despite how much I hate Urza (what can I say, I'm biased :P).

Edit: also, and I know this is highly opposing to strategic diversity, if you're playing any Uxx control strategy, do yourself a favor and play a few matches with 4 Astrolabe, at least 3 Field of Ruin, and at least 2 Mystic Sanctuary. I promise your Modern experience will improve. I'm doing it in Esper, and it's great (even tho the deck still isn't well positioned).
Modern:
GU Amulet Titan
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control

Check out my youtube channel, where I play a league a week: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCna_3LXtNgQ7q-0lnzP3mPg

User avatar
Ym1r
Posts: 153
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

I am kinda lost in this conversation, but I just wanted to point out that indeed Jeskai Nahiri was "promoted" specifically by SCG and SCG authors as "the best deck in modern". I also bought into the hype and put down 100 euros to buy myself a playset of Nahiris, mainly because I always want to be playing the best control deck available (I love Grixis, but if there is a T1 control deck I will play that).

My findings of the deck (not that I am any sort of master of course) was the same as the rest of the community, the deck was BAD. You took a decent shell and forced a combo in there that needed 4 mana and 3 turns, and didn't even win on the spot! Tin-foil hat on, but I did feel that the whole "Jeskai Nahiri rulez" was just a money-grab from SCG.

Jeskai control had its moments in modern when it was T1, when it was winning worlds (Senhar) and PTs (McLaren), but these days are long gone. There are no creatures decks to pray on and bolt is not what it used to be when we have things like Push, or 3 mana creatures with 6 toughness (looking at you Uro).
Counter, draw a card.

User avatar
Tzoulis
Posts: 279
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

@gkourou How does a small period where Jeskai control was T2 and some people T8'd somehow dismantle my argument that Jeskai control always was and always will be an inferior option to UW because of its flawed concept resting on the nature of its comprising colors? A few top 8s -where UW had more overall success- and the almost 0 results from before and after that period do not in any way retract from my point that Jeskai control will never be a better Control than UW (and now Bant) unless they print absurdities like Uro in WR, UR or all 3 colors.

You keep focusing on a single tree and you deny looking at the whole forest.
Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Jeskai control had its moments in modern when it was T1, when it was winning worlds (Senhar) and PTs (McLaren), but these days are long gone. There are no creatures decks to pray on and bolt is not what it used to be when we have things like Push, or 3 mana creatures with 6 toughness (looking at you Uro).
Even then it's not the best option, especially now with Field of Ruin and Archmages Charm forcing very heavy color requirements. If you use those slots for Bolts and Helices you cede ground to big mana and combo decks. You're hyper focusing on creature deck, when UW or, now, Bant are good enough against creature decks, while not losing points against 2 other major metagame players.
TheAnnihilator wrote:
1 year ago
First, to @Tzoulis since you sourced mtgtop8 earlier, this source is wholly unreliable for data on control decks because endless amounts of Esper, Jeskai, and 4c control and midrange decks get lumped in under the guise "UW Control", even in cases where a more fitting name exist (Jeskai control is the premier example of this, but Esper is also like this despite being less prevalent). To truly find the Jeskai or Esper decks on top8, you have to do a search for decks playing specific cards like Colonnade and ECharm or Helix or whatever.
I know it's flawed, and from random selection lists I did all of them were straight Azorius. I did not have the time to do a more thorough check. It is good enough and reliable enough for a quick search and a simple point I was trying to make.
TheAnnihilator wrote:
1 year ago
To speak to everyone else as to why Bant isn't generally the clear solution to the meta for control players, there are several reasons. Green aversion in control players is real (though unwarranted), and it's honestly a big reason why Bant isn't in good taste to a lot of us — traditionally, Bant "control" has always actually been a midrange pile with cards like Spell Quellers, Nobles, Goyf, EWit, etc. Secondly, cost is a very real factor as well — I actively want to play Bant, and even though I already own Misties (had them for Twin, kept them for Kiki), I just can't go and buy Uro like that. Bant is a hefty investment right now, and it's significantly worse online. This also leads me into point 3: what happens if you invest in Bant and Astrolabe gets banned? Ice Fang is unplayable without Labe, mark my words, and as much as I hate to admit it, ktk is right to say that control is good right now because astrolabe fixes both the fight in manabase with Field of Ruin and also, equally as important, it allows you to seamlessly run as many as 2-3 Mystic Sanctuary. Though Labe is sort of a crutch at the moment, I don't know if I really want to see it banned, despite how much I hate Urza (what can I say, I'm biased ).
I'm one of those with an aversion towards Green :P

I bought Uros and Wrenns to play them in 5C Niv though. If Astrolabe gets banned, you get to keep Uros, which will not stop being played. Also if Astrolabe gets banned Urza, and more broadly artifact, decks probably stop existing in Modern.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Amusing article I saw as I am putting together a Bushwhacker/Song of Creation deck. Note, my signature was updated a few days ago. Spooky. :p

https://puremtgo.com/articles/burnspell ... ou-through

EDIT: Song of Creation is comically busted lol.
UR Control UR

TheBoulderer
Posts: 88
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

do we think / are there any sources on whether they will make another b/r announcement anytime soon? They should be getting swamped with useful data from MTGO. Or does the COVID19 chrisis mean any steps in that direction are lacking data/real events and they'll wait until paper events are taken up again (which could be several months away, if not a year)?

I just really want that bloody Veil card to be a goner ASAP.

User avatar
Bearscape
Posts: 213
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Amusing article I saw as I am putting together a Bushwhacker/Song of Creation deck. Note, my signature was updated a few days ago. Spooky. :p

https://puremtgo.com/articles/burnspell ... ou-through

EDIT: Song of Creation is comically busted lol.
What a grumpy baby article. Bant Control qualifies as big mana? Stop it.

I don't disagree that Green is the best color in Modern but I also think color balance is a silly concept that is much, much less important than strategy balance. Legacy's lacking aggro is a much bigger flaw of the format than its blue dominance.

Veil is offensive. Primeval Titan might become an issue. Uro is really good, but fine. I think these cards should be discussed independently as any argument about an entire color being too strong just adds a pointless opinionated layer to the argument. What is the threshold for a color being too weak or too strong? What is the trade-off between strategy balance and color balance worth?

Green is too strong because Veil is too strong so ban Veil?

No, Veil is too strong so ban Veil.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I wouldn't bother much with if UWR was viable, obviously it had periods of success.
UR Control UR

User avatar
Tzoulis
Posts: 279
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
You are looking at some trees, while I am looking at the forest, to be honest. My forest and everybody's forest (but the fanboys) is that Modern's gap is too big. And my forest and what I am trying to talk you is that I can no longer play decks like Jeskai Control and do well.

In that one, you responded.
Your tree is wanting to play Jeskai Control and do well. There was one period where it was passable, but still worse than UW control. You conflated this lack of performance with the existence of creature decks and that meaning that the format was bad when there were none and thus Jeskai Control was bad.

My forest is that this increase of power level gap is independent of Jeskai's performance, because it was and still is bad by the nature of it's spells. That would require that Jeskai was a T1 deck at some point before and that's simply not true. It was always a sub par option and some Top 8's during a small period doesn't make you right, at best it might lend some credence to your premise.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Here are some 2018 Top 8's from Jeskai , so no. It was more than viable. I don't care if you want to call it Tier or Tier 2, but I call a deck with multiple top 8's in 2018 viable.
You called it "100% T1",. Do you want be to get nitpicky like you and since I proved your hyperbole wrong, throw out your whole argument? Because that's what you did.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
So, you are basically telling Jeskai wasn't viable, but it had the 3rd more top 8's in 2018, behind KCI and UW. That's more than viable' it's just that your stubbornness won't let you admit you were wrong.
It would help if you knew what "merit" means. It doesn't mean you're correct, it means that your argument is worth considering because there's some data to back it up.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
How am I supposed to have a conversation with someone saying arbitrarily "If you wanted to win, you would not play Jeskai", when Javier Dominguez, James Baggett, Quinton Lip, Chan Sze Hang, Branco Neirynck, Andrew Lopez all top 8'ed (one of them had a top 16 record).
You don't care about having a conversation. You care about being right. You deny (ifnot straight up ignore) any and all arguments running contrary to your beliefs. We've seen again and again that random decks have Top 8'd. Lantern won a GP and a PT, but no-one of sane mind would say it was T1, because only people with extreme experience did well. Unless you want to make the argument that Grixis Control was actually T1 and comparable in power with the rest of T1 during the summer of 2015. Its consequent near disappearance proves that it Top 8'd because of some skilled pilots, this led a surge in popularity which by the power of sheer numbers pushed some placings and then died off, because it couldn't compete. This reminds me of something.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
And even if you are right, I don't care. I don't want to win. I cared that the gap was small enough to fit me in playing Jeskai control and seeing players making multiple top8's.

The forest is the bigger problem is facing at the moment: The gap between Tier 1(or Tier 0) and Tier 2. That's the reason I am not playing Modern anymore and I think Pioneer is in a much better shape. If that stops being the case, I could see myself returning back into action.

For that to happen, things must change. That's my forest and that's where we should focus. Oh, and double check facts before you write them.
So let me get this straight, If I'm right, you don't care and I'm supposed to believe you're here for an honest discussion and that I'm the "stubborn" one?

You equated Jeskai's success with the increasing gap between T1 (not T0, this has a completely different meaning) and T2. That's simply a bad comparison.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
As I said, for mental health reasons, this is my last post, because the conversation should continue, if you would admit that "you forgot Jeskai control had so many Top8's during 2018 and your facts were wrong". And that you thought "Nahiri was printed in 2018, while you messed up the years".
I can freely admit that I forgot about Jeskai doing good for about 2-3 months (your data, not mine). This doesn't change that your argument is built on shaky grounds.

Will you now care to discuss my arguments on why hinging the health of the format on a single deck (and that specific dec in particular) or are you stubborn and unwilling to support your thesis?

Because you haven't done that so far. You've called me names, implied that I'm not supporting my arguments (said you, lol) and dismissed my points on technicalities that don't really matter to them, while I tried to go point by point on yours.

Somehow I had a tone and yet you've consistently not only denied to back up your points when asked, but also insulted others while doing so.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
I wouldn't bother much with if UWR was viable, obviously it had periods of success.
Me neither, it's actually me favorite color combination, but its larger lack of successes can't be used as a proxy for the format's health.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
What a grumpy baby article. Bant Control qualifies as big mana? Stop it.

I don't disagree that Green is the best color in Modern but I also think color balance is a silly concept that is much, much less important than strategy balance. Legacy's lacking aggro is a much bigger flaw of the format than its blue dominance.

Veil is offensive. Primeval Titan might become an issue. Uro is really good, but fine. I think these cards should be discussed independently as any argument about an entire color being too strong just adds a pointless opinionated layer to the argument. What is the threshold for a color being too weak or too strong? What is the trade-off between strategy balance and color balance worth?

Green is too strong because Veil is too strong so ban Veil?

No, Veil is too strong so ban Veil.
I dont think color balance is a silly concept, in a healthy world/format, color identity matters quite a bit. When a color is busted and is either critically important (legacy blue) or simply 'has it all' (modern green), its an underlying issue.

Modern was, a GY format.
Modern is, a Green 'play to the board' format.

Thats the direct result of Green being pushed into the stratosphere over the last year.

I cannot imagine a world in which competitive Magic is being played and Veil remains legal now that so many decks are shifting into green anyway, but then again, but who knows.
UR Control UR

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
do we think / are there any sources on whether they will make another b/r announcement anytime soon? They should be getting swamped with useful data from MTGO. Or does the COVID19 chrisis mean any steps in that direction are lacking data/real events and they'll wait until paper events are taken up again (which could be several months away, if not a year)?

I just really want that bloody Veil card to be a goner ASAP.
Remember that MTGO data isn't real until it needs to be. The only time WOTC has to react to anything is in response to player uproar and paper events.

Yes, they have the data. No, we can't see it. So no, we have no leg to stand on demanding anything of them. Welcome to WOTC-dome, enjoy your stay.

User avatar
ktkenshinx
Posts: 571
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: West Coast
Contact:

Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
do we think / are there any sources on whether they will make another b/r announcement anytime soon? They should be getting swamped with useful data from MTGO. Or does the COVID19 chrisis mean any steps in that direction are lacking data/real events and they'll wait until paper events are taken up again (which could be several months away, if not a year)?

I just really want that bloody Veil card to be a goner ASAP.
Remember that MTGO data isn't real until it needs to be. The only time WOTC has to react to anything is in response to player uproar and paper events.

Yes, they have the data. No, we can't see it. So no, we have no leg to stand on demanding anything of them. Welcome to WOTC-dome, enjoy your stay.
Not going to get involved in the other conversations at this point, but this is an issue I'm going to respond to. I encourage you to stop this exaggereated, post-truth suggestion that Wizards' genuine monopoly and restriction of data means we can't use that data to make predictions. We can and we have, and with great accuracy over the last year. OUaT got banned almost entirely on MTGO data with no major Modern paper events playing into the 01/2020 - 03/2020 B&R period. Incidentally, we also predicted that ban solely from MTGO data. This is a recent and direct datapoint that contradicts your suggestion (sometimes it's a direct claim, sometimes it's just a veiled accusation) that Wizards' MTGO data ridiculousness means we can't use data as players and informed community members.
Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010

User avatar
Tzoulis
Posts: 279
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
About me saying you have a tone, I believe I wasn't the only one.
Actually it was just you. On the other hand, you've been asked to back up your claims many times and you've consistently refused to and/or belittled those that asked you, while you keep on preaching those positions.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Your points were wrong because

1) you didn't know Nahiri was printed during 2016 and you said "you missed Jeskai Nahiri" in 2018 jeskai control decks

2) You said "Jeskai was not viable during the Humans/Spirits era", dismissing the deck being 3rd most well placed deck during 2018.
That's wrong because Jeskai was the choice of deck to compete against those decks. It was a Tier 2 deck that metagame reasons made it jump into Tier 1 for 7-8 months. So, even if it was Tier 1 (it was, but let's humor with that) it was viable in the metagame, while now its' not. That's why you totally missed my point.
God you're pedantic and willfully ignoring my points. My points were not solely resting on the fact that Jeskai placed well during some short period of time, but on the very nature of the deck.

You attached Jeskai's success to Modern's health, I pointed out why you were wrong and you decided to be pedantic about it. I even acknowledged that I missed Jeskai's relative success in 2018, yet you keep being pedantic. The meta from end of 2018 to early 2019 didn't change much, yet Jeskai had worse numbers. So, was is success predicated to a creature meta or popularity?

You ignored my points. You keep ignoring my points. You're not here for an honest discussion, you're here to find an echo chamber and you've shown again and again that you ignore people that have called you out on your massive hyperbole's and falsehoods. And if you don't ignore them you'll just straight up say that's you "you feel" or "it seems to me".
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
It's the gap between tier 1 and tier 2 decks. You imply I care and speak about jeskai control, but I also mentioned decks like Merfolk, Grixis Control, naya zoo, mardu, abzan midrange, and other decks along those lines.
You made that gap about Jeskai control. You attached significance to Jeskai's control playability. Not me. You. It was you who said that the format was good when Jeskai Control could prey on these kind of decks. Which was wrong, it was pointed out you were wrong, and you still kept on using it as a proxy for format health. If you want to shift to T2 in general, be my guest, but know that you're shifting from Jeska Control as a proxy to format health, to the whole of T2's relative power to T1 as an indicator of format health.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Right now, it's a Snow variant, a Titan variant, a Tron variant, a Burn/prowess variant and maybe Dredge and semi Ponza, which are metacalls vs Snow.
You keep calling RG Midrange variations of Ponza. It isn't... Ponza's gameplan is very specific, RG Midrange is very different. Also, you shifted from "Ponza" being a good because of the overabundance and "dominance" or "big mana is T0", to it being good against Snow, while you decried those that asked you to back up your earlier positions. And again, you've got Jund and 5C Niv in that T1, but that doesn't help your notion of "big mana is dominating Modern and midrange/control are only snow decks".
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I want to freaking play Jeskai or UR or Grixis control, is it so wrong that's Modern is punishing me for all of those choises? All of us have basically agreed this is the case. And this is my forest and my condition to call Modern healthy again. But that's just me(and some other people, judging from the posts). Is this universally right? No, because for another guy the condition for Modern to be having strategic diversity, even if it's limiting you to 6-7 decks. Many of us can't choose among 6-7; We have 20,000 cards and we find it funny when a format with such a cardpool has 7 decks that are so better than everything else.
And I want to play Delver, Esper Control and Boros Midrange/Aggro and my Artifact decks. You're free to play them, as I am free to play my preferences. The fact that I'm not expected to do good has nothing to do with format health at this point in time (or other times). Jeskai was never a better choice than UW. Esper was only good when UW was on top of everything, so you could hedge the mirror. If you wanted to place high you either have to know your deck inside out, play the perceived best deck at that specific moment or both. You can place well with your pet deck (I have many times), but you're not expected to do well.

Modern IS healthy now, if slanted towards green and with T3feri and Veil forcing interaction out. Even during the glorified days of Twin, the T1 of Modern was 6-7 decks, and they WERE way better than everything else, maybe not as much as now, but they were significantly stronger than every other choice and it showed in the results. T2 decks could sneak up and place well or even take down an event, but by and large the T1 ALWAYS dominates.

Also, tell that to Legacy with the card pool of the whole of Magic, including Commander, Battlebond and Conspiracy sets. It's way less diverse.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Remember that MTGO data isn't real until it needs to be. The only time WOTC has to react to anything is in response to player uproar and paper events.

Yes, they have the data. No, we can't see it. So no, we have no leg to stand on demanding anything of them. Welcome to WOTC-dome, enjoy your stay.
This would be true if we couldn't predict their actions even with the grains of data that we have or that OUaT (and Wrenn and Breach) were banned based almost exclusively on online data.

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

My claim is not, and has never been, that they don't use data. My claim is that they selectively use data whenever they feel like it. (And ironically, use data often without sufficient understanding of context or meta applications).

And since we have absolutely no access to the data that they use to make monumentally important decisions, none of it really matters until WOTC acts. Either our "gut instincts" are validated, or they're pushed off for another cycle while WOTC waits for more player pushback. Because until WOTC feels obligated to act due to requisite pushback, they don't, unless they feel internally compelled to do whatever they want for whatever reason they feel like that day. But OUaT had massive public backlash for weeks on end.

Edit: I'll just add that if I seem accusatory on WOTC it's because their long history of actions combined with multiple recent interviews and statements made by extremely powerful people in WOTC show that they do not give a flying sh*t about us. They don't plan, they don't test, they don't understand, they don't care. We are an afterthought that they clearly do not care about beyond sucking our money dry. It's really hard to give them the benefit of the doubt on anything when they show such a blatant disregard and disrespect to us as players and our format.

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Just take a look into cfusionpm. He highly disliked Modern and now he is enjoying it (and I hope you will keep enjoying it, my friend), because he is into the Tier 0 snow deck now. For me, a player who wants to run Jeskai Control with Electrolyzes, Grixis Delver/Control/Midrange, it would be not, because 80% of the top tier are that well equipped to win me(some examples include field of the dead, tronlands, uro/astrolabe, dredgers).
It has nothing to do with being Tier 0, it has to do with being an interesting Cryptic Command deck that has multiple play lines and isn't a garbage fire. It still can get hosed and loses to many things, especially fast aggro or Tron when on the draw. It wins the long grindy game without feeling utterly hopeless, which is what makes it satisfying. It's still not what I want to be doing (Snap/Bolt), but it's what I have access to since I don't want to spend the money for W6s to play Temur, and I can't stand playing Urza on MTGO with people abusing the clock and making me click through infinite combos.

What makes Bant good is twofold: 1) Ability to stabilize and 2) Ability to win quickly(though can be inconsistenc) once stable. For 1, this comes down to great value engines around Cryptic/Mystic and Uro life-gain, along with PWs to buy time, add value, and soak up damage that might otherwise go to face. 2 is not as good, but once an Uro is actually on the battlefield, games are over fairly fast. Not Twin fast, but still pretty good, assuming your Uros don't get exiled, then... winning is slow and tiresome. If you win at that point, it's usually opponent outright conceding to 2nd or 3rd Cryptic/Mystic loop.

Jeskai and Grixis have none of that, mostly because the primary tools to help stabilize and win (FlashSnake and Uro) are not available to those colors, and the alternatives are just plainly not good. FlashSnake is likely the best blocker available to Uxx, and Uro being a repeatable threat + life gain engine makes it irreplaceable. Jeskai and Grixis still have the same problems they always did: their win conditions suck. They're slow, inefficient, fragile, and non-recursive. And they will remain to be that way until they get a stupid pushed Mythic like Uro (stabilizes, ramps, attacks hard) and better support cards like FlashSnake (draws, attacks, profitably blocks).

I would love nothing more than to never play Bant again, and instead play some URx build. But I can't do that unless I either play green (TemUroZa&6), or play something objectively weaker and worse. I still don't own anything to be able to play it in paper (lands and Uros are the big prohibiting factor), but I honestly don't even really want to buy anything for fear of something being banned before we're even allowed to play in paper again. Astrolabe and Uro are both totally reasonable ban targets, and either one would make the deck unplayably bad.
Last edited by cfusionpm 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Modern”