[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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The Fluff
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

TheAnnihilator wrote:
1 year ago
Not to be rude or anything, but why are we discussing how diverse Legacy is on the State of Modern thread? I realize that it's loosely related to Modern's diversity; but, even as a lurker, I'm just not really that interested in conversations regarding Legacy. Honestly, I just don't think it's relevant how diverse Legacy is compared to Modern, or how diverse/interactive Pioneer is for that matter. Modern is its own format! xD Not that I have any suggestions as to what to discuss -- that's why I'm a lurker, not a talker!

Sorry if this comes off the wrong way. Again, I'm really not trying to be oppositional -- just putting this out there.
I too would prefer more modern talk. But seems like most conversation topics have been used up already... and tournaments are mostly shut down with covid. Well, at least we are not back to talking about the _pl_n_ _r _w_n. :omg:

There's a new set coming. Maybe some new discussion topics could come from that. :)
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
About that, 9/10 of my last posts are about Modern metagame and the health of the current Modern format. I have also been posting regularly Preliminary and Challenges/PTQ's/Super Q's and the replies are usually zero or one. People are ignoring those kind of posts nowadays and focusing into Twin, Legacy, Pioneer, or other topics. That's a big complaint that I have, because obv I spend some minutes(even the least amount of that) to post the results, only to see people talking about Twin & legacy. That's why i have been slowly and steadily giving it up and dedicating more time into the reddit pioneer thread mainly, because the future of the non rotating magic, is there imo, or in the reddit modern thread, where I did have some good discussion with @ktkenshinx recently, although we heavily disagree across a variety of topics.
It would help if you were open to discussion though.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
1) Do you think Veil of summer is threatening Modern? If yes, do you think it's the only reason DS is tier 3 atm?
No and no. While Veil is a messed up card and should be banned, it in no way threatens Modern's existence. A bunch of (over)powered cards concentrated in a color threatens its diversity and overall available choices. But yeah, ban Veil.

DS isn't being played because it has bad matchups against UWx midrange/control decks (and Niv), also against T3feri, not specifically because of Veil. Also, I can imagine RG midrange being a pain.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
2) Do you think big mana should be taken down a notch? Do you think the amount of it is fine?
Big Mana's fine.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
3) Do you think companion cards will be a problem for the health of Modern and create highly repetitive patterns?
Most of them are over hyped. Yes, the cat too. The fox might enable some cool stuff I guess, since it can be used both in the main and in the companion slot.

I don't see the elk being played in any of the decks mentioned. Niv won't lose the Light → Verdict, for a 5 mana dork. I can see it being tried, but the deck isn't that vulnerable to Blood Moon either. Tron, Infect, Humans, Storm, I mean, lol...
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Urza, lord high artificer + Of One Mind !

It basically says, play Urza, tap it's artifact: pay 0, draw 2 cards.
Cute, but nah. The only human those decks run is Urza I think.

Zenith Flare and Fight as One could be played. And maybe Sprite Dragon and Rielle, the Everwise. Fight can be played in a Delver/Boros aggro deck, while Rielle and the Dragon can round up a UR tempo shell. Rielle should be tried in Hollow One as well.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Anyone able to paraphrase Sam Blacks article? Based on the headline he feels Companion is the worst thing since Phyrexian Mana lol.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago

Anyone able to paraphrase Sam Blacks article? Based on the headline he feels Companion is the worst thing since Phyrexian Mana lol.
It looks like the reaction new card types or the colorless mana symbol or Meld had. New things that many players can't accurately judge its impact. Hell, Planeswalkers had the same, if not a worse reaction. I don't see Companion being as good as he thinks (or as common in upcomming sets), even in older formats. Even Lurrus isn't free in Legacy Storm.

There's some potential, but by and large think they're way overblown.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Anyone able to paraphrase Sam Blacks article? Based on the headline he feels Companion is the worst thing since Phyrexian Mana lol.
It's funny that I actually have Premium for the first time since IQs last came to the West Coast. I got bored during quarantine and spent money I didn't have. But let's get on to it (since I really wanted to copy the article here anyway).

Sam Black basically said all of the things that were said here and elsewhere. Companion is too good because it is starting with an 8 card hand. There is no downside to it, as long as your deck can conform to it. He brought up Lutri being banned immediately and that it will be played elsewhere. He brought up Lurrus, which is very good with another horrible design, Underworld Breach. He brought up in Vintage how good Black Lotus is with Lurrus and that it "disrespects the history of the game to maximize short-term sales." That is a direct quote.

This is his conclusion to the article.
Spoiler
Show
"And for what gain? What's the best that can come from these cards? The best case scenario is that they're fringe-playable or don't show up much, right? I mean, that seems like it's the case to me, since the repetitive play pattern mostly seems negative. Except, by looking at decks like Burn, it seems pretty clear that these basically can't just miss, right? When the "deckbuilding cost" is a sideboard slot, rather than building your deck around a restriction, they just have to show up.

But let's imagine a world where they printed lower payoffs or harder restrictions. What are we hoping for, then?

That they mostly miss Constructed, right? As far as I can imagine, it seems like the goal here was either just a nod to Commander or to try to capitalize on its success with a similar mechanic, but, as mentioned, I don't think that's a good strategy here.

After writing the first draft of this article, I became aware that Dave Humpherys wrote about WotC's goals and considerations for companion (among other things). The goal was actually to explore the design space of offering rewards for deckbuilding restrictions, which is potentially a cool trade-off, and having the cards revealed at the beginning of the game is a good way to get around several logistical issues that can come up with this kind of design. Also, they did consider some of my concerns, like repetitiveness, and determined that they were comfortable with where these landed. I still don't believe that their conclusions were correct.

The next question gets back to the issue of almost a thousand possible commanders compared to fewer than ten (as some will be unplayably weak or have hard-to-meet conditions) possible companions. Is this like planeswalkers, an evergreen mechanic, or a one-time thing? Is it better or worse if this is the first of many to come? On the one hand, it would be a big change to make all Magic weirdo commander. On the other hand, if we get more options, it's probably a little less repetitive.

I'm not generally one for "the sky is falling"-type positions. I generally give WotC a lot of credit and try to find the best in their decisions. I don't think this is going to kill Magic, or even substantially hurt the game in the short-term. I think this continues an openness to higher risk of banning than I think is optimal in their decisions to print cards and I think the game would be better off if they had simply not been printed, but that doesn't necessarily matter all that much.

If it's not clear, my advice as to how to engage with these as a competitive player is to take them very seriously. Try to experiment with whatever change you can make to any existing deck to accommodate any of them that would work and try them out, and for any that look strong, try to build around them.

These cards aren't fringe. These are the marquee cards that Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths will be remembered for (at least the strong ones)."
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
TheAnnihilator wrote:
1 year ago
Not to be rude or anything, but why are we discussing how diverse Legacy is on the State of Modern thread? I realize that it's loosely related to Modern's diversity; but, even as a lurker, I'm just not really that interested in conversations regarding Legacy. Honestly, I just don't think it's relevant how diverse Legacy is compared to Modern, or how diverse/interactive Pioneer is for that matter. Modern is its own format! xD Not that I have any suggestions as to what to discuss -- that's why I'm a lurker, not a talker!

Sorry if this comes off the wrong way. Again, I'm really not trying to be oppositional -- just putting this out there.
I too would prefer more modern talk. But seems like most conversation topics have been used up already... and tournaments are mostly shut down with covid. Well, at least we are not back to talking about the _pl_n_ _r _w_n. :omg:

There's a new set coming. Maybe some new discussion topics could come from that. :)
About that, 9/10 of my last posts are about Modern metagame and the health of the current Modern format. I have also been posting regularly Preliminary and Challenges/PTQ's/Super Q's and the replies are usually zero or one. People are ignoring those kind of posts nowadays and focusing into Twin, Legacy, Pioneer, or other topics. That's a big complaint that I have, because obv I spend some minutes(even the least amount of that) to post the results, only to see people talking about Twin & legacy. That's why i have been slowly and steadily giving it up and dedicating more time into the reddit pioneer thread mainly, because the future of the non rotating magic, is there imo, or in the reddit modern thread, where I did have some good discussion with ktkenshinx recently, although we heavily disagree across a variety of topics.

Also, I don't agree that it is that much irrelevant to spend some time comparing Modern vs Pioneer, since the latter is threatening Modern's existence, only to showcase Modern's weaknesses. If this is being done on top of the other posts of Modern metagame, overall health and/or the big amount of event we have been getting, it's totally healthy in my opinion.

So, tldr: Do people want to talk more about modern? If so, next time you see a Modern event and a metagame breakdown, you could kindly spend some time discussing about that. :love:

So, let me try to get this started.

1) Do you think Veil of summer is threatening Modern? If yes, do you think it's the only reason DS is tier 3 atm?
Obv the "Veil should be banned topic" is exhausted here, and what's I dig a little bit deeper than this. I think the answer is no, as the snow decks-Uro himself is also a big factor here. Bant snow and temuro have an excellent matchup vs GDS. Also, OuaT killed off 4c DS decks and nerfed JDS heavily.

2) Do you think big mana should be taken down a notch? Do you think the amount of it is fine?
My answer is i would prefer a little bit less of big mana. Amulet Titan, E-tron, G Tron, GB Titan at Tier 1 is too much for me to characterize as it being fine as those decks tend to create heavily lopsided matchups, but I would like to hear out some opinions. Other people think this is fine.

3) Do you think companion cards will be a problem for the health of Modern and create highly repetitive patterns?
Ari Lax thinks:
Ari: The issue is the repeatability of play patterns without adding anything novel or unique, not necessarily raw overpowering play. It's more of the same as the London mull or Once Upon a Time.
My answer is that cat will be a problem, for the reasons I stated into one of my previous posts. The other cards not so much, as the effects are fine and they will not be played that much.
What do you think about this?
My gut tells me that some kind of those decks have to give up Dismember, Walking Ballista, at least in the maindeck and that's just not worth it. And also, Infect and Humans do not always get up to 5 mana. I could see it at Niv, maybe also Tron because they can pay for it, although the lose the beforementioned cards. Also, will Storm and those other decks give up a sideboard slot just to have this free 5/5 at 5 mana? Maybe?



I will contribute more when we get some regular paper events to discuss- they have relevance for me, online ones don't match what I will see- you can establish the best deck online (as in totally dominant, 70% win ratio) and I still won't see more than 3 copies in a room of 30+ people playing Modern, because people won't invest in cardboard that is going to get banned potentially, and will instead rock up with the usual selection of Scales, Tron, Urza etc.
Companion is just awful, perhaps only made so that people like me will stop saying planeswalkers are the worst thing ever.
Is there anything left to say on Veil? Personally I would not ban it.

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Tzoulis, I am open to discussion and I am really having an open discussion, with mostly anyone(but you). Sorry for saying this one, but you have to correct your tone if you want an open discussion and me answering most of your posts. I hope this is a clean, good start.
I second this. Moving on.

Veil: The thing with Veil is that it isn't broken in the sense of just directly winning games because its an answer to an answer, thus only facilitating wins. It's kind of hard to directly link wins to Veil, even if upon closer inspection, it was absolutely Veil that won that game. And yes I do think Veil is part of the reason DS has all but disappeared. It's not the only reason. Path and T3feri are played a ton, and another card that hurts DS badly is Icefang Coatl. Probably no deck in the history of modern has beaten up so hard on DS as a deck with 4 Path, 4 Coatl, and 2-4 Veils does. Thats just a lost cause for DS.

Another point worth repeating/stressing is that there seems to be very broad concensus that Veil of Summer should not be in the format. Veil alone will not destroy modern, but it's part of the problem and will help drag the format down if left legal.

Big mana: there are 3 parts to big mana: the ramp itself (a. tron and b. bounce-lands + multiple landdrops), the consistency tools (Expedition Map/Scrying for Tron, Stirrings/sheer, hard to disrupt, massive redundancy for Titan that only really emerged with Dryad post OuaT ban) and the threats themselves.

Now, I don't think anybody will argue to nerf the manabases by banning them because just killing those decks is not a viable option. And printing hate that nerfs ramp-mana bases (read: Dampening Sphere) is hardly a viable option either, because a) it has been historically bad despite seemingly good options existing, b) it takes up a card that usually nerfs mana and does literally nothing else. Land destruction is similarly flawed, unless you dedicate your entire deck to that (see Gruul Ramp).

They went after consistency with Titan decks by banning OuaT, but the result was Titan going from completely busted to a tad less busted but still absurd. I see 2 reasons for that: a) if wanted, Ancient Stirrings is no OuaT but still a very potent consistency tool in Amulet titan and b) Dryad is just a busted magic card. Like, insanely much better than Azousa. Only adding 1 landdrop instead of 2 is a pretty small downside because it doesnt actually set back Titan by a turn a lot of the time. But there are so many upsides to Dryad: it gives perfect mana, it blocks well, is much harder to kill than Azousa and even a better clock, AND it provides another win condition that is just as viable as the other ones, as if Titan decks didnt have enough of those with Field of the Dead. Getting an astronomical upgrade for a core card of the strategy with Dryad and now being able to functionally run 5-6 copies was just a game changer. Of course, Amulet also is one of the decks that can take full advantage of Veil of Summer. Which is another strike against Veil. Decks like Titan or any Uro deck absolutely do not need the help, but on top of everything they get access to Veil of summer which just pushes them WAY out of reach for any non-white interaction (read: everything but path)

I don't know what, if anything, to do "about" Titan decks themselves, I think their gameplan has its weaknesses, but banning Veil would go a long way towards making Titan decks more accessible to disruption, which is absolutely necessary.

With ETron, they went.. I actually don't really know what they hoped to accomplish with the Lattice Ban. Yes, Lattice closed the door on some games that other cards might have lost, but the overwhelming majority of games where Karn 1) resolves, 2) gets Lattice and then 3) resolves Lattice and survives itself are won games for ETron anyway. In other words, when I face ETron, I don't feel that they were "nerfed" even the tiniest bit. The deck is just as strong as it was. TLDR: the ban did nothing.

ETron has its busted starts with Temple Temple TKS, T3 tron vomit out their hand etc. And they should have those: They build a very specific deck, it Etron wasnt able to do that it would not exist as a modern deck at all. The problem is how consistently they are able to do that. In other words, an ETron ban should have gone after their consistency, because banning a) threats is not a viable path (where would you even start^^), b) as we have established, banning either Tron lands or Eldrazi Temple would most certainly just kill the deck dead.

Tbh, by now, I could really see an Expedition Map ban as a good way to nerf both GTron and Etron. Would it kill them? I honestly don't know, but I have to imagine there are enough other cards to make them consistent. GTron still has 4x Stirrings, 4x Scrying and 8 eggs (up to 12 with Relic) to churn through their deck and tutor up Tron. And ETron can much more easily naturally curve into very powerful threats, especially with Temple. The really really busted starts just wouldn't happen every second game.

I could see both decks still being good, just not as brutally, inescapeably consistent. And again, Veil of Summer is GTron's favourite tool to shut down any meaningful interaction (Thoughtseize, counter magic). Another strike against the Card.

Companion: tbh that mechanic just weirds me out. I haven't wrapped my head around it fully yet, wether the companion restrictions exclude some key parts of strategies that we havent thought of yet, etc. As you have pointed out, some of those exclusions just might not be worth it. I don't like the angle it brings to the game tbh. Having to show the card at the beginning, thus giving your opp a very good idea of what's in your deck, but also just getting a free card for no cost other than the deck-building restrictions. Just seems like unwarrented, dumb value. I can't gauge how good any of em will be yet, but my gut hates the whole thing with a vengeance. Maybe i'm just afraid of new things, but... nah.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

I've been play testing Amulet Titan a lot more, trying to make sure I make fewer mistakes than I have in the past. I can say without a doubt that the Once Upon a Time ban has made the deck quite a bit worse. Either that or the other decks in the meta have gotten much stronger, which shouldn't be the case since the cards were already there.

I believe the ban has made the deck just a top 5 deck, nothing more. Even the best known streamer, FPawlusz said that Amulet is not super strong anymore. He believes that people are still playing too much hate for Amulet, despite the deck being knocked down a few notches. He said that he enjoys playing the deck and it still is competitive. Those are his reasons for staying on it. Tbh, he probably would stay on it if it was Tier 2.

The deck has had to bring on Karn, the Great Creator and rely on Ancient Stirrings and Explore much more. You best believe that not having a free "search the top 5 cards of your library for a land or creature" affects mulligan decisions, etc.

*I would love to hear other Amulet players' experience. @gkourou ?
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

I have to talk about Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy here. This card clearly shows that when designing new cards, WotC is completely, 100% ignoring modern.

This card makes Astrolabe into a cantripping mana dork, Mox Amber into the best MTG card ever printed, Guilded Goose, etc. We will have games like T1 Astrolabe, T2 Kinnan + Mox Amber, Tap Mox for UU, Astrolabe for GG, cast Uro/T3feri/keep mana up for Archmages Charm ON TURN TWO. Start T3 with 6 mana, 5 if you miss your landdrop. That equals a 3drop + Mana Leak or Urza + Mana Leak.

And if Kinnan and Urza are on the battlefield side by side, every Artifact produces UU.

Kinnan slots perfectly into 2 of the top 3 decks in modern, further widening the already massive gap between what now absolutly is a Tier 0 and the rest of the field.

I am not ok with this. If this is not adressed, modern is dead as a door nail. Maybe it is regardless. There is nothing that can compete with this. not even close.

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Urza produces the mana himself. This means it does not work with Kinnan.
Tapping for mana has a very specific meaning under the rules and Urza's ability does not count. Same with Heritage Druid.
Right, thank you for the correction :)

I didn't at first even consider that it might buff Urza's mana ability and still thought it was busted... well the patterns I outlined still stand. A huge board presence by thurn 2 + a 3cmc threat and/or disruption. It doesn't enable t2 Urza (outside of double Opal), but its still insane.

Btw, do eggs work with Kinnan? do they produce 2 mana when you tap and sac them?

This set seems so good for tier 1 that I almost feel they already have a ban planned and know this won't be an issue. Other possibility is they don't care at all.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

They don't care. Please the thread from Sam Blacks twitter.

They do not test to the degree competitive players would expect.

They care even less about Modern. The format is not actively managed, tested, or accounted for.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

You misunderstood me. I don't believe they test beyond a high level to make sure the desired archetypes can be drafted.

That's it. They didn't catch Urza, because they don't test as if they are trying to win.

They printed the most powerful Walker of all time, and didn't think to Elk their opponents stuff.

Whatever you think they do for testing, reduce it.

Can we draft the desired archetypes? Ship it.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

I can't see Simic/Temur Urza cutting almost anything for Kinnan. Emry is leaps and bounds better and Amber is almost always a dead card (those decks are not even playing it). Him having synergy with Amber/Astrolabe is irrelevant to Urza decks. I see him getting played in Druid/Comany decks where both his passive and activated abilities can be used to the fullest. It also dies to Push/Bolt, gets Spell Snare'd etc.

As for the Eggs deck by Kanister, it has no wincon and too few legends to take advantage of Amber. In my Paradoxical Urza deck I ran like 13 legends and it was still mediocre. If it becomes a deck, I see it going the way of Jeskai Breach, ie another T2 or lower option.

Of One Mind and Song of Creation have significant chances of playing or creating decks. The latter can even be played in Zoo decks to refuel, and more copies stack with one another.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
You misunderstood me. I don't believe they test beyond a high level to make sure the desired archetypes can be drafted.

That's it. They didn't catch Urza, because they don't test as if they are trying to win.

They printed the most powerful Walker of all time, and didn't think to Elk their opponents stuff.

Whatever you think they do for testing, reduce it.

Can we draft the desired archetypes? Ship it.
While 2019 has certainly been an outlier, other than Oko, Veil and Once, the Standard environment has been great. I don't know how much Standard you've played, but their approach works the vast majority of times. Oko et al. are unforgivable, but the rest of the sets are great.

Modern Horizons is a different beast and it's far more difficult to test for Modern, given the size of the card pool (Hogaak not withstanding) and it has produced far more good than bad.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

It works, because the game itself is good, and variance makes up the difference.

That is why repetitive gameplay, London Mulligan, and 'free' always available cards are bad, and lead to consistent bans.

The only format which gets any testing is comically the format that people don't play competitive, Limited.
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Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

I think it is probably for the better that they do not do a ton of testing in Modern.

Look at the formats that they test for: limited and standard. Do we really want Modern to be more like that?

Alternatively, look at the formats with less involvement from WotC: Commander and Legacy.

Which formats have a hardcore player base of people who love the game? Standard and limited often go through bad patches despite all the attention of WotC. Meanwhile Commander and Legacy have unique identities which exist almost as if in defiance of Wizards. I feel like Modern is having an identity crisis. Some people want it to be tightly regulated to keep it fair/stable, others want to let it fully self-actualize and be as wild as it can be without being completely busted. I'm not sure those two can coexist. Pioneer seems to offer the promise of stability which leaves Modern in an interesting spot.

Will people keep playing it if Pioneer becomes the new competitive focus? Will bans and play-testing make people more or less likely to stay in the format?

Personally, I find the aggressive bans to be a major deterrent to my enjoyment of the format. I'd rather they print more powerful cards to balance the game instead of banning everything that makes the format unique (And no I'm not talking about the T word, I have no horse in that race).

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

I think it is not about testing, it is about designing some cards that say 'no, this turn you can't do anything meaningful unless you have an answer to my answer' and ' you can't do exactly what you want, because there is another player in this game who is stopping you by making the right choices with their cards'. They won't do that, eventually Modern will sink under the weight of overpowered threats, followed by other eternals. Bans will ensue, pseudo rotation via banning. Your hatebear list from 2014 is now unplayable jank, as will much of todays' hotness be in five years, if Modern survives five years that is. I am guessing two.

Modern's future is likely online, it has not got community support like Edh and Legacy, it has not got wotc support like Pioneer. I am sure they would want Modern to be the new Legacy, and Legacy to go the way of Vintage, but they just can't make it happen, they would have to intentionally put ruinous cards like Breach into every set and not ban them, they don't have the ability to do so. Pioneer might be pretty dire, but it is also the future. There is no reason for them to kill Modern in Mtgo, but if Mtgo goes then we have no Modern.

By and large competitive mtg in paper has huge issues- they no longer want us to play the game, see the world. They want us to become fans of their heavily curated list of top players, to tune in and watch them, watch ads, support them, and then play a bit ourselves for fun- online, whilst meeting in stores for group games of casual. Modern is at the forefront of the huge issues. This is why the challenges and state of Modern meta online simply is not relevant for anyone outside of those playing online- if there is any future in paper, it will be as an FNM format - at best. No meta, just jam what you want, and even then they will have to restrict data hugely more than they do.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

I feel like the main problem is this (and has been this for quite a while now, it's just more in your face nowadays) - WotC is giving up the sanctity of formats in order to print Battlecruiser magic cards in 6 different forms (ranging up to 10X the price for foil special version) to make short term profits. Damn, that was a mouthful!

They want to create a lottery feel and print cards that people must have, in all forms. Collectors like myself need to have every version of a card, so for something old like Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn for example in my case, I have to have around 12 different cards. And there's more ocming out in Secret Lairs...

I don't know if there just doesn't seem to be profit in a group of players playing a format over an extended time period. I don't know if they are not able to "solve" Eternal formats. But looking at the newest set, this screams out. Maybe I'm wrong about the power level, but there are some cards that do seem seriously busted.

I know that locally, Modern will live on in paper. There are weekly tournaments, even if those have become less and less attended. There is a group of Magic players in SoCal that love playing Modern and are good at it. So I doubt that will stop completely. Many have in fact gone on to play other formats as well, now that their confidence is up. And they have done well there too. But I think for many of us, Modern is our first love and always will be.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

Lots of good discussion these last pages, and I just want to jump in on one point. Why do people even want Wizards to test cards for Modern? Their testing process isn't preventing problems in either Standard or Limited, the two formats they allegedly focus on. One of Play Design's main mandates, perhaps its primary mandate period, is to prevent new cards from breaking Standard. It came out of the 2017 design fiascos that led to energy and multiple Standard bans. Fast forward to 2019 and 2020 and we've seen dozens of multi-format bans, many in Standard, many aimed at the very cards they should be testing. They even tried to cover this up publicly with an under-discussed but incredibly damning and embarrassing piece of evidence: the glaring and shameful omission of Oko's design notes from the M Files Play Design article on multicolored cards.

I'd rather Modern be home to happy accidents leaking from other formats than more of Wizards' constant meddling. Their desire to sell bombs and packs is obviously driving game profits, but is also leading to horrible, multi-format experiences, whether in bannable cards or cards that aren't quite bannable but are just way too strong.
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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago

I'd rather Modern be home to happy accidents leaking from other formats than more of Wizards' constant meddling. Their desire to sell bombs and packs is obviously driving game profits, but is also leading to horrible, multi-format experiences, whether in bannable cards or cards that aren't quite bannable but are just way too strong.
I agree that its unrealistic and wouldnt solve many problems if WotC tried to test new cards for modern.

If that is the case though, people also shouldn't be surprised/annoyed by frequent bans. Letting happy accidents happen shouldn't mean you can't correct them. (Maybe you even meant that by "happy accidents, just to clarify)

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Lots of good discussion these last pages, and I just want to jump in on one point. Why do people even want Wizards to test cards for Modern? Their testing process isn't preventing problems in either Standard or Limited, the two formats they allegedly focus on. One of Play Design's main mandates, perhaps its primary mandate period, is to prevent new cards from breaking Standard. It came out of the 2017 design fiascos that led to energy and multiple Standard bans. Fast forward to 2019 and 2020 and we've seen dozens of multi-format bans, many in Standard, many aimed at the very cards they should be testing. They even tried to cover this up publicly with an under-discussed but incredibly damning and embarrassing piece of evidence: the glaring and shameful omission of Oko's design notes from the M Files Play Design article on multicolored cards.

I'd rather Modern be home to happy accidents leaking from other formats than more of Wizards' constant meddling. Their desire to sell bombs and packs is obviously driving game profits, but is also leading to horrible, multi-format experiences, whether in bannable cards or cards that aren't quite bannable but are just way too strong.
Considering the comments from Sam Black, I dont want them to actively do anything for Modern, ever again.

I dont want them to design cards for it. I dont want them to consider it at all, and I dont want them to really even manage the format.

Modern would be 100% better, if it was a community run or 'council' run format like EDH. I'm not kidding.

All Wizard's has proven is that they can BREAK Magic. They have yet to show that they can really improve it, because imo, the innovations of late are net negative.

I want them to stay inside the lines. They have actively tanked the quality of the game, and I'm not even joking.

Magic was better pre-2019, and honestly its probably a good 4 or so years of decline.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Lots of good discussion these last pages, and I just want to jump in on one point. Why do people even want Wizards to test cards for Modern? Their testing process isn't preventing problems in either Standard or Limited, the two formats they allegedly focus on. One of Play Design's main mandates, perhaps its primary mandate period, is to prevent new cards from breaking Standard. It came out of the 2017 design fiascos that led to energy and multiple Standard bans. Fast forward to 2019 and 2020 and we've seen dozens of multi-format bans, many in Standard, many aimed at the very cards they should be testing. They even tried to cover this up publicly with an under-discussed but incredibly damning and embarrassing piece of evidence: the glaring and shameful omission of Oko's design notes from the M Files Play Design article on multicolored cards.

I'd rather Modern be home to happy accidents leaking from other formats than more of Wizards' constant meddling. Their desire to sell bombs and packs is obviously driving game profits, but is also leading to horrible, multi-format experiences, whether in bannable cards or cards that aren't quite bannable but are just way too strong.
Considering the comments from Sam Black, I dont want them to actively do anything for Modern, ever again.

I dont want them to design cards for it. I dont want them to consider it at all, and I dont want them to really even manage the format.

Modern would be 100% better, if it was a community run or 'council' run format like EDH. I'm not kidding.

All Wizard's has proven is that they can BREAK Magic. They have yet to show that they can really improve it, because imo, the innovations of late are net negative.

I want them to stay inside the lines. They have actively tanked the quality of the game, and I'm not even joking.

Magic was better pre-2019, and honestly its probably a good 4 or so years of decline.
This would be nice in theory - the problem? They control ban decisions. Most have been pretty good if you don't examine the timing very specifically. But even though everyone here will argue with me, I'm pretty sure many people could have done a better job in certain areas (cough, cough, unbanning Stoneforge Mystic). I literally thought I'd go to my grave clutching onto my piles of this card, similar to how I was willing to go to my grave with nearly 1,000 copies of Sword of the Meek.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

Just want to throw out, before we see Ikoria's effects on Modern, I think the post-Mox Opal ban modern has been excellent. I think the super honest RG midrange deck being a good meta call is a sign of great health, I think Tron resorting to Emrakuls in the sideboard is a sign of great health. Astrolabe might be a bit too good, but all it has done is raise the ceiling for Modern. It's honestly heartbreaking that this has been the season where most of my Modern gameplay had to be over Cockatrice

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

How is RG midrange being a good meta call a sign of format health? that just means big mana is dominating and aggro is bad. If anything its a sign of imbalance.

2) A deck running a different sb card isn't a great sign of anything.

And "raising the ceiling" or to put it in other words, insane power creep, is the number one problem modern has had over the last years.

I don't mean to be rude, but I can't wrap my head around where your arguments are coming from.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

The power jump of the last year and a half has been devastating for the game. It's certainly not a good thing that Tier 1 is so far ahead of Tier 2.
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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
How is RG midrange being a good meta call a sign of format health? that just means big mana is dominating and aggro is bad. If anything its a sign of imbalance.
There are some relevant criticisms we can make of the current Modern metagame, but the observations at the end of this quote simply don't make sense. Aggro has a greater collective share over the last 5 SQs (32.5%) than both AA decks collectively (27.5%) and Ramp decks collectively (21.9%). It's even more noticeable if we isolate the T8s: 42.5% aggro vs. 27.5% snow and 17.5% ramp. Of the top 5 most-played SQ decks, #2 and #3 are Burn and Dredge (9.4% each). As for big mana dominating, these same numbers also undermine that characterization. Big mana as a whole is behind both aggro and snow across the T32s, and performs comparatively worse going into T8 than both if its competing pillars.

Incidentally, here are the top 13 decks (~77% of the metagame, i.e. Tiers 1 and 2 by previous Modern Nexus definitions) for all SQs since 03/21/2020:

1. Bant Snow Control: 11.3% (18)
2. Burn: 9.4% (15)
3. Dredge: 9.4% (15)
4. Gruul Ponza: 6.9% (11)
5. Eldrazi Tron: 6.3% (10)
6. Mono G Tron: 5.6% (9)
7. Temur Urza: 5.6% (9)
8. Amulet Titan: 5% (8)
9. Jund: 4.4% (7)
10. Humans: 3.8% (6)
11. Infect: 3.8% (6)
12. Golgari Titan Ramp: 3.1% (5)
13. Mono R Prowess: 2.5% (4)

On paper, there's really nothing wrong with this balance. We have top-tier control (Bant Snow), control/midrange hybrid (Temur Urza), midrange (Gruul Ponza, Jund), aggro (Burn, Dredge, Humans, Infect, Mono R Prowess), and ramp (E Tron, G Tron, Amulet Titan, Golgari Titan). The problems arise because people, especially vocal critics on this forum, don't like the play patterns and card power levels in some/many of these decks. They are heavily influenced by powerful permanents instead of stack-based interaction, which makes games feel very swingy and bomb-oriented.

I am going to echo the same caution about Astrolabe decks. If you remove Astrolabe decks, you are effectively removing all Ux interactive Magic from competitive Modern. There is no way the non-Astrolabe Ux decks could compete with the powerful ramp and diverse aggro of this format. If you target Astrolabe, you must also target a variety of other cards from other top-tier decks to flatten the overall power of the format. That's not necessarily a bad idea and might be worth arguing, but it's critical for Astrolabe detractors to acknowledge this likely impact.
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