[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Tzoulis
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Affinity was good all that time because it was fast enough as an aggro deck, which what Opal gave it. As you've seen, now Affinity can't even compete. Imagine if you made Infect/Burn/Mono-R one turn slower, almost no-one would play them. The Opal ban was premature, we couldn't know how good Urza decks would've been in a post-Oko world. Limited data from after Hogaak's ban indicate they'd be fine, and even if they were too good, Opal would still be a bad target, Emry or Astrolabe are better and don't nuke a whole strategy.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Affinity was good all that time because it was fast enough as an aggro deck, which what Opal gave it. As you've seen, now Affinity can't even compete. Imagine if you made Infect/Burn/Mono-R one turn slower, almost no-one would play them. The Opal ban was premature, we couldn't know how good Urza decks would've been in a post-Oko world. Limited data from after Hogaak's ban indicate they'd be fine, and even if they were too good, Opal would still be a bad target, Emry or Astrolabe are better and don't nuke a whole strategy.
It's almost as if you believe they acted rashly and improperly by killing what was a format pillar deck with the wrong (or poorly-timed) ban. I simply can't imagine what that's like.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
That deck was not on the data given above which I thought was being talked about, to be fair- the list of decks and percentages had no prison decks in.
I liked the deck, BTW, it was harder than most prison decks and required you to know the meta well. The deck was the only known prison deck in town, and outside of REL comp had issues with opponents playing slowly as they tried to figure a way out, and also often playing on when they should have scooped, which I know is a common issue with Prison decks, especially in newer formats like Modern. So it was not much fun to play with. I found it often lead to 0-0 matches and 1-0 matches that at REL comp would have been warnings for the person on the other side. If I was looking for a healthy metagame I would hope for 5 percent prison based decks minimum of more than one type preferably. In 2015 it was Lantern control. In legacy we get prison decks able to splash for game ending combos, or hybridising with beatdown decks like Dragon stompy, and that for me is why I have not taken as much to Modern. That said I did get to the semi of our tiny WMCQ with land destruction/suppression field/Chalice brew, so they are possible if everyone else brings the right deck to beat up on. Overall though 2015 was not a great year in Modern's history, I would take 2017 over it. It beats up on now, because mostly these past two years have sucked.
Very true. I went to MNM (around 16 players) after not playing for a bit, just to find 3 Lantern players at the place where I played. So in Round 1, my Lantern opponent took at least 95% of the playing time. I didn't scoop because at some point, I was close to potentially winning. I needed 2 of my 3 main board Qasali Pridemage to be next to each other. I was playing Abzan Little Kid. They didn't and I lost 0-1. Needless to say, taking less than 5 minutes of playing time in Game 1 made me upset to lose.

Then the next week, I beat him by scooping early and then slaughtering him with SB cards that I prepared for Lantern. But then in a later match, I am missing a single land for 5 turns (in which my next Lantern opponent took at least 10 min.) before I drew a land and played Terastodon to destroy 2 Ensnaring Bridges and a land of mine to set up lethal one turn after turns. (I was playing GW Trap/Breach) We got a 1-1-1 draw. He wouldn't scoop, even though we were both 2-2 at the time. This is imprinted in my mind because as you could guess, I will go out of my way to beat this opponent and I would not scoop to him even if it meant the store kept more prizes.

I think the main problem is that these players were not that good. They came to play Lantern without even knowing what Modern is like. I still remember a Lantern opponent reading my Scapeshift card as if was not a real, Modern legal card. It couldn't be real, right? SMH.

But yeah, Lantern had many problems. I wouldn't blame it all on opponents. I hate scooping in Game 1 when I have 3 Qasali Pridemage, but as each turn goes and he takes 2-3 minutes per turn, it makes that window much, much smaller. If I had a better SB the very first time I came to that MNM after months off from MNM, I would have scooped immediately. But I didn't. Not yet at least. ;)
It was painful watching relatively inexperienced players play with lantern- and it seemed to attract them, oddly. The lantern player needed to play quickly- really quickly. I knew the meta well and it still was a hard deck to pilot.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Prime time, I am not sure on.
I think it would be really easy for them to print
2 mana artifact "XXXXXXXtotem"
"players can't search libraries " or "permanents cannot enter from libraries unless they were cast" which would reduce worries about such cards.

In the same way as the not legal Cursed totem .
or Torpor Orb
They won't print such stuff, of course.
The could even do
2 mana "vanilla totem" with "creatures lose static abilities" or the much needed and longed for 2 mana "planeswalkers are the biggest arsewipe in the game of Mtg Totem" with "loyalty abilities of planeswalkers can't be activated". In all cases these would be great for the environment- more so if they printed E tutor. It is such a shame they don't want Johnnybigmonster to feel bad about "not being able to do something" for a turn because he gets upset at having something expensive in play he can't use.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

There are people actually calling for a ban on that 2 cmc White card that prevents Commanders from being cast.

The game is lost to these people, the Timmy's are the majority.
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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

Do you mean something other than Nevermore? Either way, not sure if Commander ban policies are a good reflection of what's to come. It's a non-competitive format run by fellow players, the polar opposite of Modern, and they've always been wary of static effects that shut out commanders. Besides, there are plenty of other ways to stop fun without Nevermore

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

No, its some new Human, 1W, 1/3 'Cards may only be cast from the Hand' or something like that.

Commander is likely the most played format, as such, its players will also be representative of many (majority?) of players. Consider the path Magic has been on for years on end. It very clearly is a Timmy world.

Modern itself, and its players, maybe not, but it doesnt matter, because pushed cards hurt us anyway, and pushed cards are almost always Threats, not answers.
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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

From Ikoria? Man some people really will complain about anything

I think we are on the same page in terms of WotC's target market. I know Timmy players don't shape the ban list, but I do agree that newer sets prioritize Timmy plays than anything else. Unless Ikoria has some sort of mind-blowing removal/counter spell we haven't seen, it's pretty clear that WotC's plan for raising the power level of Standard doesn't really include removal to go with it. If Drown in the Loch is the ceiling for removal...well I'm glad I don't play Standard or Pioneer.

The good news is that we now don't need to rely entirely on Standard sets to get new cards, and while MH definitely had some major failures, it at least gave us things like FoN, which is a step in the right direction. So long as MH2 has a little more of that and way less Hogaak, they can appeal to whomever they want with Standard. That being said, I'm waiting to put in my preorder for Death Corona while I still have a chance :p

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

I've gotten into it on FB and Twitter about Drannith Magistrate.

My view of this card has little to do with whether or not it's too powerful, and everything to do with the absolutely atrocious and terrible design philosophies of asymmetrical hate cards that don't give any drawback to the owner.

If you remotely cared about your GY in white (like UWx Snapcaster decks), RIP is absolutely out of the question in most reasonable metas. But this? Why not? Doesn't affect my stuff! Same design philosophy that brought us the awful RAW PWs and their one-sided hate effects.

To see why I hate this design philosophy, just imagine what would happen if say Choke or Blood Moon or Ensnaring Bridge each had text saying only affected opponents? There's literally no downside to playing it. I play Bant Snow, and you bet your sweet behind I would jam as many of those hypothetical 2019/2020 Chokes in my board as I could! I can't because Choke is symmetrical, and its symmetrical effects create deck building limitations (even if as simple as "don't run islands"). Cards like this? Like T3feri? Like Narset? Like Karn? Like Ashiok? What's the drawback? What's the deck building cost? I absolutely cannot stand WOTCs design team.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I hear you, I was on the 'Ban T3feri, right now' train before anyone. Literal day 1 of its availability on Arena, I knew it was trash design.

That said? This is a creature man. This is Bolt, Push, Path, Doom Blade, WHATEVER removable, and its 'biggest concern' is that it stops people from casting their Commander...sure, the format with literally all the removal you could ever want, and the tutors to get it.

No way is this remotely an issue. Poor design? Sure. Issue? No chance.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Oh, it's definitely not a problem, just strikes a personal nerve as yet another s**tty design in a long list of s**tty recent designs.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
I hear you, I was on the 'Ban T3feri, right now' train before anyone. Literal day 1 of its availability on Arena, I knew it was trash design.

That said? This is a creature man. This is Bolt, Push, Path, Doom Blade, WHATEVER removable, and its 'biggest concern' is that it stops people from casting their Commander...sure, the format with literally all the removal you could ever want, and the tutors to get it.

No way is this remotely an issue. Poor design? Sure. Issue? No chance.
Removal doesn't seem that good to play that much of in Commander, at least multiplayer. Mind you, I don't play Commander, so I could be way off.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
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Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Removal doesn't seem that good to play that much of in Commander, at least multiplayer. Mind you, I don't play Commander, so I could be way off.
Depends on your meta and your deck, but most non-cEDH decks run 2-3 Wraths and up to 3-5 spot removals. My Niv-Mizzet Reborn has like 4 wraths and 8 spot removals (Vindicate, Despark etc.). Most of the whining comes on the heel of Lutri's instant ban and saying it's hypocritical and/or idiotic to not ban such a strong hatepiece, but ban Lutri instantly.

Banning the human is absurd and I like its design. I don't mind the one sided prison effects, as long as they're not printed on cards like T3feri,

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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but I thought rule 11 (Abilities which bring card(s) you own from outside the game into the game (such as Living Wish; Spawnsire of Ulamog; Karn, the Great Creator) do not function in Commander) implicitly shut down the Companion mechanic. Were they going to try and modify the rules to let people use the mechanic?

As for the human, I agree that one-sided prison effects aren't the best design, but if you're slapping them on a 2 CMC 1/3 that basically dies to every removal while doing nothing else, it just doesn't seem worth the energy to complain. If anything, part of me wishes it were a one-sided Grafdigger's Cage instead. That way it could still help curb Titans in Standard while having broader applications in Modern

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Albegas wrote:
1 year ago
Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but I thought rule 11 (Abilities which bring card(s) you own from outside the game into the game (such as Living Wish; Spawnsire of Ulamog; Karn, the Great Creator) do not function in Commander) implicitly shut down the Companion mechanic. Were they going to try and modify the rules to let people use the mechanic?
From https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-04-02 :
So, the companions are legendary creatures who begin outside your starting deck and have great influence over the rest of your deck. Where have I heard this before? Ah yes, Commander. Commander players, even though you don't have sideboards, you can still get in on the fun. Each Commander deck may include a chosen companion. It starts outside the game and doesn't count as one of your 100 cards. Just like the rest of your deck, your commander must follow the deck-building rule if you're going to use a companion.
Wizards just said they work, so Rules Committee just has to accept it (they were consulted though).

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

I must admit I do not have an issue per se with asymmetrical; many symmetrical cards like Balance and Pox are de facto asymmetrical - because when they get used, and in cases like Balance broken, they come with no cost - so you don't play creatures, you do play mana rocks and Balance suddenly becomes mindtwist/armageddon/wrath etc. In some respects when they make them asymmetrical they are more likely get costed correctly, when they make symmetrical cards they can potentially get broken if they miss something, although it is less common nowadays. I prefer symmetrical cards, sure, but some cards just don't work when made symmetrical - Tef 3 is a case in point - it would have zero Legacy play if it were symmetrical. Zero play anywhere , probably. I am not arguing, of course, that the card is well designed- it feels a bit thrown together, and the static ability (city of solitude for you) should be a loyalty ability of some sort, and the loyalty ability (sorceries as instants) the static one. In fact it is a bit of a mess as design goes.

I never had an issue with Teferi for Legacy- many players %$#% about it but secretly what they were %$#% about was the success of a particular deck being threatened- Miracles. Tef 3 forced a design change in these decks- previously Miracles and similar decks could play a single win con like entreat, two snappies, plus jace, and board into mentor from the board. Now all of a sudden they were dead in the mirror if this resolved- meaning they had to play a few more critters like Clique/Mentor. Now I ****** hate creatures and the fact they have been forced on us older players, but the unintended effect of this is that decks like D n T suddenly found they had targets for the otherwise useless Swords TP, and those UW miracles decks got weaker against almost everyone else- remembering Grixis or Pile decks could play bolts and even Strix etc., and by and large a resolved Tef was just a speedbump vs Grixis or 4 col pile. Decks like Depths lost only a fraction of the instant speed action they had, and by and large Depths, lands, D n T, Reanimator etc. went about unchanged, as did a lot of other decks. That to me was good- one deck had to play its game one a bit more like its sideboard- maybe 3 cards different, and had to be a lot more careful about countering in the mirror. It is not very nice to live in fear, and Miracles players suddenly found that they could not make the previously "correct" counter if it meant they could fall into the man trap that was Tef 3. They said "whoever lands tef first wins", but very soon the mentor/cliques returned and it was no longer true. Fear of the card alone changed the deck, which was the only common UWx control deck to rely on exclusively on counters plus critter removal. Sadly then Oko came along, and those UW decks became Bant and 3/3 elks smashed Teferi to irrelevance, but the card was fine on power level, even if it was a very inelegant design.

As for the new card- 1/3 asymmetrical effect- had it been symmetrical what difference would it make? The symmetry is as relevant as it is on Karma. The decks that run it won't be abusing it or casting stuff from elsewhere. Yes they will be Vialing, but not casting. I would indeed have made it symmetrical, but I would have made it 2/1 to get legacy play- it is tutorable with those stats in d n t. There have been so many cock ups, this seems rather low, and we don't need more evidence that the play design aspect of the company have been producing wet farts with follow through down the leg for 18 months.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Sooo......

What's everyone's opinion on this Tarmogoyf/Pod card?
451898.jpg

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Sooo......

What's everyone's opinion on this Tarmogoyf/Pod card?
451898.jpg
I think it's either gonna be a more balanced pod or an unplayable one, not exactly sure where I stand on it yet. On one hand it pretty much costs the cmc of the creature you wanna tutor for+1 and doesn't let you just keep going up the chain of cmcs for the same mana investment each time. On the other hand it lets you tutor for whatever you need

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Sooo......

What's everyone's opinion on this Tarmogoyf/Pod card?
451898.jpg
motleyslayer wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Sooo......

What's everyone's opinion on this Tarmogoyf/Pod card?
451898.jpg
I think it's either gonna be a more balanced pod or an unplayable one, not exactly sure where I stand on it yet. On one hand it pretty much costs the cmc of the creature you wanna tutor for+1 and doesn't let you just keep going up the chain of cmcs for the same mana investment each time. On the other hand it lets you tutor for whatever you need
Please keep general card evaluation to the official IKO Preview thread: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24300&sid=13a69f323 ... 2022423666. This thread has enough branching topics as-is without sliding further into preview evaluation.
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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Sooo......

What's everyone's opinion on this Tarmogoyf/Pod card?
451898.jpg
motleyslayer wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Sooo......

What's everyone's opinion on this Tarmogoyf/Pod card?
451898.jpg
I think it's either gonna be a more balanced pod or an unplayable one, not exactly sure where I stand on it yet. On one hand it pretty much costs the cmc of the creature you wanna tutor for+1 and doesn't let you just keep going up the chain of cmcs for the same mana investment each time. On the other hand it lets you tutor for whatever you need
Please keep general card evaluation to the official IKO Preview thread: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24300&sid=13a69f323 ... 2022423666. This thread has enough branching topics as-is without sliding further into preview evaluation.
Sorry, thought it was ok talking about that card here since it was from a modern context.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Anyways, take a look at this amulet/tron show in the latest Super Q.
Good news:
- Strategic diversity among decks(although a little bit virtual one, big mana looks to be a serious problem).

The bad news:
- 24/32 Green decks, not even counting Dredge in those number. 13/32 decks also running veil of summer in the sideboard. 8/32 astrolabe decks(that's borderline fine, I think?)
- Too much big mana, especially at the top tables. Titan, E-tron still dominating modern, with snow complementing it. This creates unfun games. Honestly, I always were more open to play vs combo decks, than play vs big mana decks, which are my absolutely worse decks to play against. That's probably because I run fair midrange/control decks most of the time and I have 20-30% chance to win vs those kind of decks.
- The absurdity of those Tier 1 decks being the best ones to play and Tier 2, not even being able to compete continues to be the main theme in modern.
Veil is definitely a low-key (not entirely low-key, TBH) problem in Modern. %$#% that card. It pushes green with basically zero investment by green decks, disproportionately benefits unfair and proactive lines trying to protect their gameplan, and is a major reason we see no DS decks or non-green UB decks generally. As with OUaT, Veil does not contribute to the identity of any deck in Modern, doesn't prop up financial investments (unlike Opal), and just exerts negative metagame pressures. It should 100% be banned.

Big mana is an odd case because it's hard to pinpoint what is pushing these strategies. Individually, I think these decks are probably fine. Titan and Tron decks don't have much overlap at all. Within their own Tron and Titan supersets, they also aren't particularly prevalent. Combined, however, it's just a lot of random big mana decks showing up at all points in these SQ T32s. In theory, you'd solve this with new answers that address big mana, or new decks that pressure these strategies, but I have very little confidence in either. Outside of Force of Negation (excellent design, remains a great addition to Modern), Wizards couldn't have bombed much harder with chunks of its 2019 and 2020 design. I'm terrified to see what their solution to big mana would look like. Probably a Wasteland variant that is better in big mana decks than anywhere else. For lack of clear solutions, I'm open to just waiting and seeing how the metagame evolves. It's pretty strategically balanced which I wouldn't want to mess up.
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Sorry, thought it was ok talking about that card here since it was from a modern context.
Totally fine. This thread is just all over the place as it is, and if we're also throwing all the IKO card evaluation in here, it's just unmanageable.
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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

Shadow variants seems pretty bad right now. I always felt fine about my tron matches as GDS. Titan and titan shift always felt like I was riding a fine line. But the lack of combo otherwise seems rough. I haven't played any other shadow variants enough to know for sure.

The Gruul midrange deck seems to be super well positioned right now with its disruption and reasonable threats.

I'd probably be fine with an astrolabe and veil ban but I don't know if that will happen

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Totally fine. This thread is just all over the place as it is, and if we're also throwing all the IKO card evaluation in here, it's just unmanageable.
No prob, I'll keep it on the down low. It just looks like a card that has potential in modern.
I've honestly not checked in on this thread for a while and just looked today and it looks like not much has changed really hehe

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

Can anybody provide me with reasons why Thassa's Oracle-Ad Nauseam isn't seing more play? I tested against it with a friend (me on Grixis Control, him on Ad Nauseam), his win cons being 4 Oracles and 1 Lightning Storm.

Oracle makes the deck a good turn faster (maybe not theoretically, but in practice, the kill being Oracle into Spoils with Thassa's trigger on the stack), and way more consistent. Add to that their ability to easily run Veil of Summer on top of Pact of Negation...

The meta is packed with decks soft to this kind of combo (especially big mana: ETron, GTron, Titan) and/or Veil of Summer (Bant Snow, Temur Uroza, UB Urza Thopter, Jund). Burn is also a considerable presence, which gets demolished by Ad Nauseam. Apart from Jund, targeted discard also (especially GDS) has been pushed out of the meta completely.

Why doesn't a very consistent T3-4 deck that seems very well positioned and can easily protect its combo see more play?

EDIT: The comparison to Neobrand enforces my bafflement. I get why Neoform is absent. It gets hit by a lot of sideboard hate, most of all Ahsiok, but also Mystical Dispute hitting Neoform, FoN being a widely played card etc; Ad Nauseam does not care about Ashiok at all, about Dispute only to a small degree, and can go off at instant speed if it needs to to circumvent FoN.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
Why doesn't a very consistent T3-4 deck that can easily protect its combo see more play?
Because it can't really defend it on T3-T4 against Thoughtseize/Multiple counters and most of all T3feri. Even the GR Midrange that was popular in the last challenge and the past few weeks can really slow it down.

@ktkenshinx I don't know if the challenge results are up, but the top 4 had 1 Naya Midrange, 1 5C Niv (won the event, 12-0) and I think 2 RG Midrange (1 in the finals).

@gkourou Big mana is "dominating" as much as Bant Control, Bant Snowblade or GR Midrange. This qualifier it was mostly Titan/Tron and RG Midrange. From the matches I saw and heard the Challenge was more slanted towards RG Midrange/Bant Snow (both control and blade) and less towards big mana (usual caveat of partial info applies).

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