[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

TheBoulderer
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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

I've been on the "ban Astrolabe" train for so long it's hard for me to see an alternative. But having a format with Astrolabe and powerful snow-hate seems kind of appealing tbh. Mind you, It would have to be very very good.

Example: "Destroy target non-land snow permanent" would be too weak by far.

"Destroy target snow-permanent (lands included)" would be very good vs snow decks but still a very narrow card because it would only attack their mana-base and be completely dead vs resolved threats.

The only way to make really playable snow hate would be either a static ability on an enchantment or creature

"Snow permanents don't untap during their controllers upkeep" - aka Snow-Choke, could even be called "Thawing Winds" or something amazing^^.

or a removal spell that's broader than just snow permanents, but better vs snow. Ideas would be,

"destroy target snow permanent, draw a card" or

3cmc "this spell costs 2 less to cast if an opponent controls a snow permanent. Counter target spell."

or "whenever a snow permanents enters the battlefield under an opponents control, that player discards a card / or loses 2 life."

There seem to be a lost of cool possiblilties.

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

I really think Astrolabe does good things for the format. Printing a specific powerful hate card seems fair if such a trade-off is necessary.

Alternatively, both of the leading snow decks (urza and bant) abuse Mystic Sanctuary. I still think banning Sanctuary would be completely fair. That being said, as of right now I don't even think a ban is necessary.

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

I don't think Sanctuary is a banworthy card, and neither do I think it would nerf either Urza or Bant Snow in a significant way. It is also a tool that can be used by a wide variety of strategies: UR Delver, any Ux control deck, Blue Moon etc. And running it comes at a real cost: You get a tapped land in the early turns, get generally less color flexibility and have to fetch for islands.

Astrolabe of course makes turning on Sanctuary trivial too because you can just fetch island island island. Non-snow decks cant do that. So, tbh thats a categorical "No" from me about Sanctuary being a problem.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

That top 8 is nearly a picture perfect snapshot of the top of Modern as a whole, minus Titan.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
When we had a debate on whether to ban Urza or Mox Opal, I strongly thought Opal was the correct decision and this proved to be right. Now, if there is such a debate(and as I can see in several pages, there is one), I think Astrolabe is the one that should go.
The ban didn't prove you right, it proved everyone else right that it it was the wrong one. Only Urza artifact decks are viable, and by your standards not very much so. Plus Temur Urza barely plays any artifacts. The Breach decks are another T2 (at best) option.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
It is strategically diverse(as I stated in past posts), but that's solely on snow archetype.
You say this and then you go on and say:
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Look that I am not dismissing everything, there is a reason to be happy, and that's snow. But it you want to be fair and happy, it's Snow or go home. We all know Jund is Jund and it's winrate is below-par. It also loses against Snow, E-Tron, G Tron, Amulet, Dredge. It seems to be a bad metacall, but some people are playing it, because that's their deck and they are testing out Kroxa. Expect this to fade out shortly, as this is already the case.
and
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
As I stated before, I am not dismissing everything here(someone mis-represented that thinking I said anything). I am dismissing all fair decks, but the snow ones.
I mean what is it? Are you dismissing the non-snow decks (that had a great performance at both the Qualifier and the Challenge) or not? Because the first quote dismisses that performance and the second one all but admits that you dismiss them, but you not only ignored me, but also had to say that "someone misrepresented" what you said?

You straight up dismissed the non-Snow lists and claimed that Jund is bad, because you said so? That's straight up speculation if not lying to push your point. You've been doing great work on this forum by posting and compiling data, but this is not the first time you've done that, and is not the first time you've been called out.

There's not only Bant Snow and Temur Urza, but also Jund (regardless of your feelings) and Shadow decks still put up results. Bant Snow isn't solidifying as the best fair deck (if not the best deck period) because it's an Astrolabe deck, It is doing that because of Uro, T3feri and Veil along with Astrolabe. Without any of them it falls in line with the rest of the format's fair decks.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
So, yep, you are spot on. I don't like playability of Modern, outside of snow decks(which again, are a blast to play with, but they are so strong that it's not that good to play against). And the gap between tron, titan and snow variants and all the other decks is so big that the other decks some times find it difficult to catch up with, aka you can't brew anymore as easily as you once could (particularly, pre-MH).
Don't like how the top tier plays, that's fine, but do not project those feelings as if the format is bad. Modern always had a few decks above the rest making the winners meta, this hasn't changed the past year. So what if Grixis Control isn't T1? Or some other random brew. The sheer number of different 5-0's the past few weeks clearly indicates that there can be brewing in Modern, as it was always the case. Most of those brews just aren't T1 or are out of filed choices to attack a certain metagame. As it has always been the case.


As @cfusionpm put it:
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
That top 8 is nearly a picture perfect snapshot of the top of Modern as a whole, minus Titan.
Only I'd add that this "strategic diversity" has (almost) always been there throughout Modern's history. A couple of fair decks, a few aggro decks, some big mana decks and some combo decks.

You (royal "you") may not like this iteration, because you find them boring or whatever, but someone else didn't like the 2014 or 2015 or 2016 or 2018 iteration of the winner's meta.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Only I'd add that this "strategic diversity" has (almost) always been there throughout Modern's history. A couple of fair decks, a few aggro decks, some big mana decks and some combo decks.

You (royal "you") may not like this iteration, because you find them boring or whatever, but someone else didn't like the 2014 or 2015 or 2016 or 2018 iteration of the winner's meta.
That's an entirely reasonable assessment. As ktk pointed out though (using much less polarizing words) the best decks all promote fairly rancid and terrible gameplay patterns. Including "auto lose G1, mulligan to narrow hate cards G2/3" mostly due to the massive ineffectiveness that general answer cards have against most of these decks. Lands, on-cast triggers, huge mana abuses, GY recursion, all these things are good because they basically get a free win against most everything that isn't in the "fast/linear/aggro" category.

It is what it is. I didn't want to have to buy into Bant snow to not hate my Modern experiences, but now that I've dropped several hundred tickets on Uros and Snakes, things don't look so bad. But I certainly feel for those who can't (or like me, stubbornly don't) buy into a top deck for whatever reason (personal preference, money, whatever).

And I think the reason why people idolize the 2015 meta is because our top decks were Twin, Jund, Burn, Infect, Tron, and Affinity. Of the fast/linear decks, all of them were able to be dealt with using regular interaction (counters, creature removal, discard). Tron didn't have nearly the speed, consistency, and plethora of toys to exploit that it does today. And Twin/Jund being the best decks brought a wonderful balance of interaction, as well as punishment for those who wanted to take chances not interacting.

We're at a point where "fixing" the meta and going back to an idealized time is totally unreasonable though. It's a hot mess express of zone abuses and narrow permanents being super powerful and difficult to deal with. With that in mind the idea of "well then let us play with our toys" comes to mind, with regards to revisiting bans from half a decade ago.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

I think the fear with banning Arcum's Astrolabe is that Modern becomes boring old Jund/Burn/Tron/UW Control and that is stale. We've done that for many years and still are somewhat doing it now; there's just a few decks that are better than those right now.

And @iTaLenTZ is right that with Once Upon a Time banned (absolutely should have been), Modern is the same, but without the decks that used those (except a bit of Titan because it's that powerful). No Toolbox, no GB Yawgmoth (I love it), and so on and so on.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
As ktk pointed out though (using much less polarizing words) the best decks all promote fairly rancid and terrible gameplay patterns. Including "auto lose G1, mulligan to narrow hate cards G2/3" mostly due to the massive ineffectiveness that general answer cards have against most of these decks. Lands, on-cast triggers, huge mana abuses, GY recursion, all these things are good because they basically get a free win against most everything that isn't in the "fast/linear/aggro" category.
So Modern as it always has been then? Jund was awful if it didn't play against the matchups it had tuned its mainboard for. It certainly couldn't win against Tron or Dredge or Amulet. Just because many of the cards that exist today, doesn't mean that fair decks were better then.

To the contrary, fair decks are way better equipped today than back then to fight a larger swathe of the meta. I'd argue that this plays a large part of the discrepancy between T1 and T2, since T2 decks usually try to exploit holes in the T1 and when T1 decks have the tools to patch these holes, T2 decks lose that advantage.

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
And I think the reason why people idolize the 2015 meta is because our top decks were Twin, Jund, Burn, Infect, Tron, and Affinity. Of the fast/linear decks, all of them were able to be dealt with using regular interaction (counters, creature removal, discard). Tron didn't have nearly the speed, consistency, and plethora of toys to exploit that it does today. And Twin/Jund being the best decks brought a wonderful balance of interaction, as well as punishment for those who wanted to take chances not interacting.
Punishment being losing to a T4/T5 combo? If so, how is it any different than now? You still have Jund, but you also have Shadow decks, Snow decks and proper UW decks. Modern didn't have them then, Twin was propping up the Ux control share, because blue sucked then.

Tron is as consistent and fast as it was then, only it had Eye of Ugin to completely obliterate the late game.

Of the last 2 events, what can't be handled with "regular interaction (counters, creature removal, discard)"? Don't say Tron, because Twin ran Blood Moon and the only other decks hoping to compete with it were Burn (debatable) and Infect. Also Affinity, but they banned the wrong card so...

So no, pardon me if I find the notion that 2015 was better rose tinted nostalgia and nothing more.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
We're at a point where "fixing" the meta and going back to an idealized time is totally unreasonable though. It's a hot mess express of zone abuses and narrow permanents being super powerful and difficult to deal with. With that in mind the idea of "well then let us play with our toys" comes to mind, with regards to revisiting bans from half a decade ago.
If you're calling the meta back then "idealized", you're only supporting my point... The only "narrow permanents" that are difficult to deal with nowadays are lands, and it's extremely dangerous if you make interaction with them easy. Plus let's not pretend that there are no tools to deal with them, seeing as they're not dominating so far.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
So Modern as it always has been then? Jund was awful if it didn't play against the matchups it had tuned its mainboard for. It certainly couldn't win against Tron or Dredge or Amulet. Just because many of the cards that exist today, doesn't mean that fair decks were better then.


If you're calling the meta back then "idealized", you're only supporting my point... The only "narrow permanents" that are difficult to deal with nowadays are lands, and it's extremely dangerous if you make interaction with them easy. Plus let's not pretend that there are no tools to deal with them, seeing as they're not dominating so far.
I take exception to this.

Firstly, Jund with Deathrite Shaman (Ajundi or BG) was indeed beating many decks at the time of its legality. Sure, Tron still beat it, but possibly had too many poor matchups at the time.

I think you are mixing up Amulet and Titanshift, even if I completely understand the mix up given today's Amulet w/ Valakut, BG Titan w/o Amulet, RG Titanshift, and possibly more. The Amulet deck absolutely does not beat Jund that badly - I would estimate the matchup to be 55/45 for Amulet at best. At the SCG Regionals in San Diego, I lost my win-and-draw-in to Jund. I was Amulet w/ OUaT. Then he ID'd into the top 8 and beat fpawlusz (well known Amulet streamer) on Amulet. Sure, the games 2 and 3 in which I lost were super grindy and I drew terribly, but Jund can beat Amulet - Ashiok, Fulminator Mage, Tarmogoyf clock, and Surgical Extraction (only saying cuz that's what I faced) are things that Amulet doesn't want to see after side. EDIT> Looks like he beat a friend of mine on Amulet in the top 4 as well (I just looked it up on mtgtop8 since the store didn't post results to their page).

Titanshift, on the other hand, is a deck that I've almost never lost to Jund with. In fact at one point over a year ago when I played it, I had won 18 matches in a row vs. Jund until in a game 3 when I was going to turn the corner, my opponent drew a 3rd card and triple Bolted me (I wasn't even sure he kept in all the Bolts) in a long game 3. Sure, Ashiok is a pain here as well, but with 2 Summoner's Pact less, 2-3 Tolaria West less, and better ways to kill Ashiok (Fry, Magmatic Sinkhole, same Beast Within as Amulet), it is less of a pain. Search goes off early and Explore is a better way to play around Ashiok and goes well in this strategy.

*Why is Tron better now? Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is huge. It's an Oblivion Ring that "Oblivion Rings" every turn and sticks around. Walking Ballista, Karn, the Great Creator, Sanctum of Ugin is a card that Pro Player Joe Lossett said is better than Eye of Ugin in Tron (I disagree) is available. Access to Warping Wail, Spatial Contortion, and all of the bullets that Karn, TGC gets. London Mulligan rules. Do we really have to explain how Tron has gotten better from the transition of 2011 GR Karn Tron to today's Mono Green Tron? P.S. - there's probably more I missed...
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Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
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Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
To the contrary, fair decks are way better equipped today than back then to fight a larger swathe of the meta. I'd argue that this plays a large part of the discrepancy between T1 and T2, since T2 decks usually try to exploit holes in the T1 and when T1 decks have the tools to patch these holes, T2 decks lose that advantage.
While this is by no means an exhaustive look, a while back I crunched numbers of every T8 deck from 2015 to 2019 looking for unique decks among them. I wish I had saved my data set (or if I did save it, knew wherever it was), because all I can find is this graph. I do remember though, that although the percentage was in clear decline, the actual amount stayed fairly constant, hovering in the low-mid 20s for raw numbers of unique placements per year. Perhaps the saturation of extra events made those same mid-20s decks appear less diverse because it did not scale with the additional events? Who knows. But it certainly gives the illusion of a smaller gap between tiers previously, even if just through correlation.
So no, pardon me if I find the notion that 2015 was better rose tinted nostalgia and nothing more.
What decks were you playing and why do you think it was so much worse than described? I'm certainly not the only one to refer to this as Modern's "golden age." I also never pass up an opportunity to link back to this article whenever possible.
If you're calling the meta back then "idealized", you're only supporting my point... The only "narrow permanents" that are difficult to deal with nowadays are lands, and it's extremely dangerous if you make interaction with them easy. Plus let's not pretend that there are no tools to deal with them, seeing as they're not dominating so far.
How many main deck, dedicated Enchantment removal cards are you playing? Artifact? Graveyard? Planeswalker? How many modal cards would it take for that number to be how many cards people play that remove just creatures?

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

I personally don't care about fair/unfair labels. I never liked the fact that Jund players at one time in the DRS era could make loads of mistakes, play like utter dogs,and still win as their deck did everything. It was a fair deck by any stretch, and I hated it. I would far rather have Phoenix or Eldrazi or any other clear format winner from history. There will always be a top deck, I get that. The one thing in the history of Modern is that nearly every top deck puts down threats that massively outweigh answers game 1. Now those threats have changed- nobody gets bothered by Goyf anymore- but that is the issue going forward, and unless MH2 is full of answers it won't change.
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Temur twin, grixis twin and ur twin are to me the same deck, same as uwr control and uw control are the same deck and jund with siege rhino and no bolts was just jund, and GR and GB and G tron are just tron etc.
I am looking at that list and not feeling nostalgic to be honest. I want to play prison or hatebears, and I do not see much to keep me excited, for me that is not what I want to see today.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
I personally don't care about fair/unfair labels. I never liked the fact that Jund players at one time in the DRS era could make loads of mistakes, play like utter dogs,and still win as their deck did everything.
Have you played against Tron lately?

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
On other note, Temuro wins the online PTQ with at least another (Bant Snow) Uro-Astrolabe deck in the top 8.
This event having more than 350 people is pretty indicative of the format.
This is very close to what I run. I am on -1 FoR and +1 Mystic Sanctuaries, -1 Snake, -1 Timely main, -1 T5feri, +1 Brazen Borrower, +1 Cryptic, +1 Detention Sphere. SB looks very nice. I have found mine clunky in many matchups. Will likely shove some Lanterns in, and add an extra Timely. Easily best deck I have personally played in years. So many lines, so many ways to recover, never really feel totally out of a game. Very unlike GDS, which felt like an aggro/combo deck that sometimes could maybe survive a long game. With paper prices in the toilet at the moment, I wonder if there's just enough time for me to buy into the cardboard before Astrolabe is banned and the deck becomes terrible again?

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
think you are mixing up Amulet and Titanshift, even if I completely understand the mix up given today's Amulet w/ Valakut, BG Titan w/o Amulet, RG Titanshift, and possibly more.
I'm not mixing up anything. Jund couldn't beat Bloom Titan or Tron for that matter. I can't say about Titanshift, but as far as I recall 3-4c Scapeshift was pretty even. Your personal score doesn't matter, I have a (highly) positive matchup against Tron (both E-Tron and regular) with my Grixis Urza. I've either been lucky or they played badly (especially the G-Tron players).

The only decks I remember doing well against Bloom Titan was Twin (obviously), Infect and to some extend Affinity and Burn.

Ugin was printed in January 2015, so it is inside the "golden era" that we've discussing. The only major upgrade it got was Newlamog, but that still doesn't change the fact that they played other fat colorless creatures/artifacts.

If you're saying that Jund NOW can beat Amulet, then yeah, that was my point. Despite the printing of powerful tools to boost linear strategies, there have been major boosts to fair strategies as well.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
What decks were you playing and why do you think it was so much worse than described? I'm certainly not the only one to refer to this as Modern's "golden age." I also never pass up an opportunity to link back to this article whenever possible.
I was mostly playing Delver and/or UWx Midrange/Control strategies. I'm going against this glorification of that era. It isn't any different than now, it's just that the tools today are far more powerful than then, which is to be expected.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
How many main deck, dedicated Enchantment removal cards are you playing? Artifact? Graveyard? Planeswalker? How many modal cards would it take for that number to be how many cards people play that remove just creatures?
How many of those are you playing against on a regular basis that Trophy/Decay/Teferi/Ashiok/Ooze/Kaya's Guile/Explosives REALLY can't handle? Because those are "modal" spells, some literally. If you're that Artifact/Enchantment/Planeswalkers are as prevalent as creatures then you'll have to back it up, because modal "use" spells exist, way more than in that "golden age".
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I agree with most of you saying 2015 was the golden era for Modern. I think all Modern players have come to this conclusion during the past years
Am I not a Modern player now?
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I also fully agree with @cfusionpm saying Modern was at it's best back then, because decks were interactable.
I mean, that's just so untrue that you're unmaking a whole 3-4 year campaign by the community to push answers more, and ignoring stuff like Trophy, Guile, Ashiok, Forces etc.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
But anyways, about 2015 being the golden era of Modern, it's not nostalgia or something, just fact. All archetypes were evenly represented, big mana were in check and the most important thing is that the gap between Tier 1 and Tier 2 was not that big.
Fact requires it to be universally true, so again, why are you passing your opinion as fact? Big mana is so unchecked right now, that nothing can beat it and it dominates the format, like 20%+ of the format, right?

Your analysis later in your post can be done point to point for today, but (mostly) different decks. Same strategy make-up, different decks. How does that help your point? Other than YOU PERSONALLY liking those decks more, so again, an opinion not a fact.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
In addition, this is the perfect spot for a metagame to be.
Perfect for you. You keep thinking that you're speaking for all of Modern's players, but you're not. Plus if that's ideal/perfect or whatever, there's no room to grow, for other decks to grow or get tools. Because that mentality runs contrary to the "brewer's paradise" that you so much idolize about that era. If a control deck or -god forbid- a prison deck becomes T1, it automatically stops being ideal and have to do something to FIX it.

Are you sure you want an eternal (heh) T1, with no changes or let the format have a strategic diversity, where within each macro-archetype you have reasonable choices with no artificial "Jund MUST be T1 or the format sucks" rules.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
On other note, Temuro wins the online PTQ with at least another (Bant Snow) Uro-Astrolabe deck in the top 8.
This event having more than 350 people is pretty indicative of the format.
Which is what exactly? UG "fair" decks are at the top? Or that Uro & Co. are what made those decks top tier?

EDIT:
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
With paper prices in the toilet at the moment, I wonder if there's just enough time for me to buy into the cardboard before Astrolabe is banned and the deck becomes terrible again?
I'm thinking of getting 2-3 Uros if only to have the option to run (my version of) Temur Urza and/or build 5C Niv, just because I love Niv -it's my favorite commander deck by far-, even though I hate Green with a passion and I've never played a Green deck.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
I'm thinking of getting 2-3 Uros if only to have the option to run (my version of) Temur Urza and/or build 5C Niv, just because I love Niv -it's my favorite commander deck by far-, even though I hate Green with a passion and I've never played a Green deck.
They're fairly reasonable, all things considered. And the foil multiplier for standard copies is TRASSSSHHHH. Regular border non-foils are about $30 and regular border foils can be had for ~$37 (or less than a 1.25x multiplier). I picked up at least one foil regardless (for Yarok EDH deck) and may pick up more slowly. Luckily Snakes are super cheap and could pick up a playset for about $20. I have everything else except the Misty Rainforests. Might grab the new art ones whenever they release? In all honesty, it's probably going to be a long time until tabletop play resumes anyway...

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
think you are mixing up Amulet and Titanshift, even if I completely understand the mix up given today's Amulet w/ Valakut, BG Titan w/o Amulet, RG Titanshift, and possibly more.
I'm not mixing up anything. Jund couldn't beat Bloom Titan or Tron for that matter. I can't say about Titanshift, but as far as I recall 3-4c Scapeshift was pretty even. Your personal score doesn't matter, I have a (highly) positive matchup against Tron (both E-Tron and regular) with my Grixis Urza. I've either been lucky or they played badly (especially the G-Tron players).

The only decks I remember doing well against Bloom Titan was Twin (obviously), Infect and to some extend Affinity and Burn.

Ugin was printed in January 2015, so it is inside the "golden era" that we've discussing. The only major upgrade it got was Newlamog, but that still doesn't change the fact that they played other fat colorless creatures/artifacts.

If you're saying that Jund NOW can beat Amulet, then yeah, that was my point. Despite the printing of powerful tools to boost linear strategies, there have been major boosts to fair strategies as well.
Yes, during that time, Bloom Titan did have a much better matchup vs. Jund. They had more tools back then like Leyline of Sanctity and Obstinate Baloth in the board. Jund had fewer tools. It was basically more hedged to beat all the waves of Aggro that Modern had and since the Tron and Amulet matchups looked so abysmal anyway, some Jund lists didn't even run Fulminator Mage at all. Why try to gain a few percentage points in abysmal matchups when you can bolster other close matchups?

I actually think that Grixis Whirza, if that's what you're talking about, has a positive G-Tron matchup. I have also mostly smashed that matchup. We can combo by turn 3 and more reliably, turn 4 with all the Whirs, Thopter/Sword combo, Urza, and Goblin Engineer. Not to mention, turn 2 Goblin Engineer gets Damping Sphere by turn 3 most likely. I have seen the rough games as well. Don't get me wrong. I've been smashed as well, trying to find the combo only to see Karn, the Great Creator say %$#% you to me. I don't think it's about playing badly. Tron is a Sorcery speed deck (except when they Dismember your Urza :( ) for the most part. As for E Tron, I think I played against it once or twice. Seemed okay, but I theorize it's at least 50/50. But I digress...

Ugin was the biggest change to Tron. I don't think Ugin and His Eye were ever legal at the same time. My bad, I think they were. I was just stuck on UR Eldrazi, so I didn't know much else of the meta. I just knew decks that I crushed and decks that were somewhat close (Company decks). Ulamog was big. I told you I'd forget something. Old Tron decks ran 4 Relic of Progenitus and 3-4 Pyroclasm in the main. Here's a link...
1. 2012 Tron - https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=4006&d=223630&f=MO
2. Quarantine Tron - https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=25071&d=375437&f=MO

I think your point is definitely solid. I feel that the issue is that unfair strategies have been helped more so or at least there is that very perception.
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The Fluff
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

What could be the reason rest in peace spiked a little in price? A few months ago it was at the 3-4 dollar range, now it's at 6-8 dollars in online stores. Is there a strong gy deck right now?
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
What could be the reason rest in peace spiked a little in price? A few months ago it was at the 3-4 dollar range, now it's at 6-8 dollars in online stores. Is there a strong gy deck right now?
I wouldn't call it a "spike" per se. It's just gone up since bottoming out after reprints. It's still a very good card, good against Uro and Mystic Sanctuary, Dredge, and a few other strategies. There's probably just fewer in the market, as players have picked up the copies they've needed.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

Oh god, I'm close to tears. Not kidding. Back in 2015 Grixis control was tier 1 and Grixis delver was tier 2. How far did my archetype fall :(

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
Oh god, I'm close to tears. Not kidding. Back in 2015 Grixis control was tier 1 and Grixis delver was tier 2. How far did my archetype fall :(
I feel that both decks were good against Splinter Twin decks and otherwise solid in the meta. Modern nowadays is just too broken, too fast, and has too many battlecruiser cards that make K Command and Tasigur look like fools. Not to mention, removal is just not as good. It is not game breaking like it could be against Twin.

Both decks still had poor big mana matchups. :\
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
I personally don't care about fair/unfair labels. I never liked the fact that Jund players at one time in the DRS era could make loads of mistakes, play like utter dogs,and still win as their deck did everything.
Have you played against Tron lately?
Fair point. I have said many times, Tron has no business being in any format without Wasteland. Unlike many with their surgical bans, I would, in the absence of Wasteland and Sinkhole, I would just ban the tron lands.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
This is why 2015 was the golden era for Modern. Everything was literally playable. I was also on Twin, Grixis Control and Grixis Delver(plus Amulet). All of my decks were banned, or became irrelevant(Delver was also nerfed from Probe), and Amulet was irrelevant for many years, up to now.
Tron was also in check from Twin. Tier 1.5? Yes. But in check. And now we have two variations of big mana Tron and you also have Amulet and you also have BG Titan.
I don't also like the fact that if you want to be playing Control or Tempo, it's Snow or go home. You could play so many, different things back then, including Grixis Control, Grixis Delver, Twin variations and regarding Midrange, Abzan, Jund, and some other variations also.
You keep saying "everything" was playable, but I couldn't play artifact prison decks (not even Scales was an option). Plus, Tron (both versions) are categorically not running rampant. Amulet was irrelevant for 6ish months, not years. Grixis Control was relevant for 2-3 months, after that it was just a few people that did well with it. As for midrange today, I mean there's Mardu Shadow, BR unearth and %$#% Jund that you keep dismissing, while back then there was only BGx...

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Re: Grixis Control. That's the deck I used to play and as long as Twin was legal, the deck was Tier 1-tier 1.5 and an excellent choice, because it had an excellent matchup vs Jund, Twin variants, you could also fight Abzan, an excellent matchup vs Affinity, etc.
Grixis will never be a top deck until one of three things happens:
1) Grixis gets access to 1 mana, unconditional, exile removal for creatures.
2) The meta shifts in such a way where standard "destroy" creature effects are good enough AND the majority of meaningful threats can be reliably hit by Fatal Push.
3) Grixis gets printed multiple powerful value cards and threats (ala a FlashSnake or Uro in their colors. No Kroxa isn't good enough, because putting things in the GY often isn't good enough. Needs to be pilot-positive value*, not opponent-negative value).

Never mind the colors' total inability to deal with resolved enchantments, but that's always going to be the case.

Grixis is BY FAR my absolute favorite color combination and would be playing it in a heartbeat if it wasn't just so painfully inadequate in so many situations. I have foil playsets of Tarns, Deltas, and Mires, as well as 2x each Expeditions of Vents, Grave, and Crypt, and Noah Bradley-signed BFZ full art foil basics (he also signed one of my Steam Vents). In addition to foil staples all around in those colors. I want to play Grixis more than anything else. But alas. My options are play a trash deck, or do well with Bant. So here we are. Flashing in Snakes and dumping Uros in my yard while Pathing my opponents things under T3feri protection with Force backup, all facilitated by a cantrips which instead of being able to be Snapped back, can profitably attack/block and fixes my greedy/clunky mana. Cool?

*Good Lord, imagine a UR Titan that was 1UR, 6/6 with Flash, and on ETB it countered a spell and drew a card. Escape for UURR.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
My idea though, is to speak about ideas, not call other people out, so this is the reason I am abstaining from interacting with your posts. Just keep it civil please and I would appreciate it if you would not be that aggressive.
Please, do not continue this, because there are better things to talk about, such as Modern's current state.
I'm not calling you out. I'm challenging you to defend your idea(s), because so far you have only passed your idea (re: opinion) of a perfect Modern as fact. If you don't like being challenged, then consider that you're posting on a public forum with people that don't share your opinions.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Re: Grixis Control. That's the deck I used to play and as long as Twin was legal, the deck was Tier 1-tier 1.5 and an excellent choice, because it had an excellent matchup vs Jund, Twin variants, you could also fight Abzan, an excellent matchup vs Affinity, etc.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Artifact prison decks: Wrong. I just gave you an article-link that emphasizes on Lantern Prison winning a GP. In fact, Lantern Artifact Prison top 8'd some events back then, one of which piloted by the brewer Zak Elsik.
Grixis control (and Lantern for that matter) had a few true believers that placed well and mastered the deck, after the meta shifted a bit, past 2-3 events, they fell off, hard. KCI on the other hand, had the power level to compete after some pros picked up and toyed with the deck.

Lantern wasn't a T1 deck, it was a T2 strategy that a few of the greatest players (both in general and of that archetype) played to great success, so no, it wasn't widespread and not as good as it was claimed to be. Same with Grixis Control.

As for Modern in general, I mostly like where it is, I'd rather have Opal over Emry for example and no T3feri and/or Veil, but I'm liking where the meta is. There are plenty of decks for all strategies and plenty of T2 strategies to toy around with.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
ut alas. My options are play a trash deck, or do well with Bant. So here we are. Flashing in Snakes and dumping Uros in my yard while Pathing my opponents things under T3feri protection with Force backup, all facilitated by a cantrips which instead of being able to be Snapped back, can profitably attack/block and fixes my greedy/clunky mana. Cool?
Or play Grixis Urza :p

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