[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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The Fluff
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

good grief... not Twin debate again...
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Twin has received so many busted cards during the latest sets.
This is simply not true. And if those cards break things, the fault is with *those cards* and not whatever hypothetical deck is they go into.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
How would it play out if the artifact lands were unbanned? I hope they will be, because I love artifact decks hehe.

Would it be less explosive than having Mox Opal, but better in the mid/long game because of more artifacts on the table aka more synergy/power?
Karn the great creator and Collector Ouphe are two natural enemies of those lands, so there's definitely stuff to keep them in check.
Affinity is one of the easiest decks to pack sideboard hate for, because it takes splash damage from several other decks. Graveyard hate like Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void is fantastic against Ravager, Plague Engineer is strong against a field of X/1's, Kolaghan's Command keeps it down, Chalice of the Void hits it hard, Collector Ouphe, Karn, and others all deal with artifacts well (Force of Nature even massively hurts them).

As far as aggro decks go, Affinity is one of the safest to have in the format because it's an easy target to sideboard against.

And, like I said in my earlier arguments, not only is the original ban reason no longer relevant, but there is an actual hole in the current metagame in having aggressive heavily creature based decks. And the only one which was even a possible factor was Affinity which was wiped out as splash damage from Mox. Bringing back the artifact lands makes a lot of sense in my opinion.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
What I forgot to say, because I thought it was obvious is that they unban cards that are
1) fine to unban(not limit diversity, not create logistics, not create unfun play patterns, not break the T4 rule all of those while being top tier) and
2) have an upside.

When Ferocidon was unbanned, it had 3 remaining weeks to show itself, so it was more of a "take it, even if you break the format, it's going to be 3 week, we don't care".
Why would Mox Opal be unbanned? It was just banned, because of the reasons it was banned.

Crabvine is being played, I saw quite few of those decks recently, even if it not such a great rate. Bridge could be unbanned. Again, the risk is bigger than the reward. They don't want to help graveyard decks at all, even if Bridge will help them only just marginally.

Punishing Fire, Deathrite Shaman, Birthing Pod helping midrange is not the only upside to unban those cards.

DRS could really limit diversity(there is this real risk), Birthing Pod could really limit card design space, Punishing Fire runs the risk of hurting even more the weenie decks that have a problem.

There is no hypocrisy here. It's their line of thinking and I agree with them. A card being fine is not enough to unban a card. It has to be fine(DRS probably isnt, Birthing pod probably isn't) and has to create an upside(Punishing fire creates non).

They balance risk and reward. Only when the reward is much bigger, while the card being safe, they unban a card. Atm, there is no such a card in the Banlist. I predict no unbans during 2020. And that's an easy prediction. If Veil is banned, only then small chance for Twin.
I feel like we'll have to agree to disagree here. First of all, those "rules" are not very clear to some millions of former Modern players. Secondly, some of them have slightly changed since 2011.

Rampaging Ferocidon was unbanned because it would 100% NOT break the format. It wouldn't even do much of anything. The ban was a ban based on what they thought would happen and not based on anything that the card, Rampaging Ferocidon actually did. They felt after the other bans that Ferocidon would stomp out the new and upcoming token decks and they didn't want to limit diversity. Rampaging Ferocidon is a very tame card compared with some of the %$#% they've printed recently.

Crabvine is not played at all. Less than 1% of the meta is my "not played at all." (See mtggoldfish or mtgtop8 for reference) Bridge has a smaller chance of breaking Crabvine than Ox of Agonas does of breaking Dredge, so if you say that Graveyard Strategies are out, then why Dredge, but not Crabvine? Please don't make up something about Dredge being easier to hate on. I mean, an argument for anything could be thought up to justify almost anything in this world.

How does DRS limit diversity? It's played in every deck. Who cares? The only difference between it and a million other cards that are played in every deck that supports its color is that it's B or G. That's literally it. A DRS unban would help Midrange, not Aggro, not Combo, and not Control and possibly not Ramp.

There are chances to anything being unbanned. Did you know that Jace, the Mind Sculptor was the best planeswalker ever printed by far until Throne of Eldraine was printed? You cannot tell me that there was 0% risk to Jace being unbanned. If the meta ever becomes Midrange vs. Control, Jace goes up to $500 each, guaranteed. Stoneforge Mystic had a risk - probably around my butt measure of 1%. Bloodbraid Elf had a risk, even if that risk is so small it can't be measured without a microscope. The "reward" for DRS is that Jund can speed up their plays and have more reach. It will be a Tier 1 deck immediately and be able to fight certain strategies a bit better. Jund being good in the meta leads to a meta that is good, as much as I HATE THE %$#% out of Jund as a deck.
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Birthing Pod is a combo card. It also gives a fine plan B of increased value to rub salt in the wound. It needs to stay banned. Forever.
Drs is an obnoxious 1 mana planeswalker in any format with fetches.
Twin is twin and the most polarizing card in history.

Unbans need an upside. The process of bans is pretty haphazard but most of the banlist is fair, or would be if they took the same approach today as they once did rather than letting things exist that are as bad as those offenders from history.
We would need a smaller banlist if they printed better maindeckable answers that punished the linear decks, get that right and things will improve.
Birthing Pod is a combo card that was played in a deck that was almost exclusively Midrange. Sure, it shut down any other type of Midrange deck because it was the best one. It also shut down Burn, which I don't mind, but maybe Burn gets some new tools to help fight that?

I will leave the last one alone, as most people know how I feel about the subject currently.
Last edited by FoodChainGoblins 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Literally no upside in Twin, and it would surely cause more harm than good in the worst case scenario or in the best case scenario, just create a new combo deck, while removing some other decks that would have a bad matchup. There is 0% to have a net positive in Modern's diversity.
So, the worst case scenario is awful, the best case scenario is not even good, and all the in between shades also bad.
These are hypothetical guesses at best, and baseless doomsaying at worst. Plenty of people said Jace would tear Modern into pieces and that Stoneforge was an unstoppable meanace that would cause everyone to have to play it.

People are tremendously terrible at evaluating cards in hypothetical situations. And given that it was so egregiously controversial of a ban, who knows what would have happened if it lived a long and thorough life (as Opal had and Tron continues to).
That will do it for more for the Twin debate and I don't wanna speak more about it. Let's move on.
Neither do I, but here we are, continuing to spout opinions about hypotheticals as if they are truth and fact. I'd rather actually see for myself given that Modern is categorically unrecognizable and exponentially more powerful than when it was banned. Whatever we think we know is irrelevant, and whatever "testing" has been done is statistically meaningless. I'll bet the deck isn't even that good in a format where most decks put immediate and insurmountable pressure as early as turn 2. But hey, whatevs.
Today's prelim features so many fair snow decks. That's a good thing for the format. Uro is proving itself to be better than we thought it would be. Modern has a chance of being a fair format, after so many years. Let's see.
Weren't the last several pages talking about how Astrolabe needed to be banned? Besides, any single event is wholly meaningless. It's especially meaningless in the chaos and shake-up immediately following a B&R change.

But hey, what does it matter anyway? Dissatisfaction with the format seems like it continues to rise and attendance for events continues to fall (well before COVID-19 issues). Never mind that the Ferocidon unban text applies almost exactly. Carry on.

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago

Today's prelim features so many fair snow decks. That's a good thing for the format. Uro is proving itself to be better than we thought it would be. Modern has a chance of being a fair format, after so many years. Let's see.
my god, all hail to the "many fair snow decks". Are you sure you don't mean "fair" as in my fair lady?

I'm totally fine with the deck in principle. What I'm not fine with is being able to fetch exclusively for basics and have perfect, blood-moon resistent mana as a 3-4 color deck. Wouldn't call that healthy if my life depended on it.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
How would it play out if the artifact lands were unbanned? I hope they will be, because I love artifact decks hehe.

Would it be less explosive than having Mox Opal, but better in the mid/long game because of more artifacts on the table aka more synergy/power?
Karn the great creator and Collector Ouphe are two natural enemies of those lands, so there's definitely stuff to keep them in check.
Affinity is one of the easiest decks to pack sideboard hate for,
fully agree. As someone who played Affinity in legacy for almost 5 years, and another 3 years or so in Modern... the deck folds hard to several kinds of artifact removal. Creeping corrosion is a one-sided board wipe and almost a free win. Hurkyll's Recall allows merfolk wins on game 2. It's the reason I sold all my opal and ravager in 2017, to buy a playset of goyf, but today even goyf feels not so strong in modern.

funnily enough, my friend saw an affinity deck without opal make top 3 in a 13 player tournament. Guess the deck can still snag a win when people don't expect it, and the tourney is a small one. :P
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
All of this, makes the risk of unbanning JTMS minimal. Not 0%, but minimal. Now, think how much better a card like Splinter Twin is, a card that is being played at a shell that can delay the game and end it on the spot with another card being played at instant speed. Not draw 3, put back 2 in library, win. I am sure you realize the risk with Twin is so much higher, right?
I don't understand this logic, especially given the massive doomsaying from hundreds of players, pros, and writers had about both Jace and Stoneforge. Was everyone just massively wrong about Jace and Stoneforge? Is everyone wrong about the "risks" of Twin as well? Where does this confidence of brokenness and risk come from? Why is there not the upside of promoting interaction by being so easy to interact with? Why is there not the upside of punishing fast goldfish decks?

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
What do people want out of a fair deck in modern? To win with Dream Trawler? Even Modern's "fair" decks, have to cheat something, somehow.
I am from an older time. I've played since 1994 with time off in between, but non stop since Mirrodin.

I am from an older time when it didn't take a fair deck attacking with a 9/9 for B that got Double Strike and Trample for 1R (essentially a Berserk that doesn't make the creature die at EoT). Up until just a few months ago, I literally only lost to Shadow decks because of Temur Battle Rage. Part of this is me playing decks that fair well vs. it. Part of this is countless play testing hours vs. this deck because I hate it. Part of this is because many of the decks I play are redundant and discard often slows down the opponent as well. The win-cons that I used to play the last time I played a "fair" deck was Cloudthresher or Broodmate Dragon in Standard 5 Color Control or Baneslayer Angel in Standard UW Tapout and Control later on. I could close the game quickly between double dragons and Cruel Ultimatum, but I could never do over 20 damage through a field of blockers. Plus, the answers to creatures were a lot better at that time.

I am not going to post more because this will probably erase, so I'll leave it at that...
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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
How would it play out if the artifact lands were unbanned? I hope they will be, because I love artifact decks hehe.

Would it be less explosive than having Mox Opal, but better in the mid/long game because of more artifacts on the table aka more synergy/power?
Karn the great creator and Collector Ouphe are two natural enemies of those lands, so there's definitely stuff to keep them in check.
Affinity is one of the easiest decks to pack sideboard hate for, because it takes splash damage from several other decks. Graveyard hate like Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void is fantastic against Ravager, Plague Engineer is strong against a field of X/1's, Kolaghan's Command keeps it down, Chalice of the Void hits it hard, Collector Ouphe, Karn, and others all deal with artifacts well (Force of Nature even massively hurts them).

As far as aggro decks go, Affinity is one of the safest to have in the format because it's an easy target to sideboard against.

And, like I said in my earlier arguments, not only is the original ban reason no longer relevant, but there is an actual hole in the current metagame in having aggressive heavily creature based decks. And the only one which was even a possible factor was Affinity which was wiped out as splash damage from Mox. Bringing back the artifact lands makes a lot of sense in my opinion.
Do you think adding the artifact lands would make the Urza decks stronger aka the reason Mox Opal got banned? I have a feeling Affinity and Hardened Scales will have a tough time because of being hit by bans and hate that's meant for the Urza deck, but sadly hits the other decks too.
An unbanning of the artifact lands is probably being held back because of Urza getting the power of Mox Opal back in a sense. I know it's not quite the same, but the artifact lands are definitely a type of fuel hehe.
I hope there's some sort of help coming to the aggro based artifact decks soon.

I remember I played against a dude at my LGS's fnm who had a completely foiled out Affinity deck with Mox Opal sleeves and playmat. I feel bad for him now.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

No twin, not now, not ever. It won't happen, we move on.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Lets talk about Twin again. Lets repeat all the arguments, post all the data etc etc. Please I want to rehear the entire story again for the 102740 time.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
What do people want out of a fair deck in modern? To win with Dream Trawler? Even Modern's "fair" decks, have to cheat something, somehow.
I am from an older time. I've played since 1994 with time off in between, but non stop since Mirrodin.

I am from an older time when it didn't take a fair deck attacking with a 9/9 for B that got Double Strike and Trample for 1R (essentially a Berserk that doesn't make the creature die at EoT). Up until just a few months ago, I literally only lost to Shadow decks because of Temur Battle Rage. Part of this is me playing decks that fair well vs. it. Part of this is countless play testing hours vs. this deck because I hate it. Part of this is because many of the decks I play are redundant and discard often slows down the opponent as well. The win-cons that I used to play the last time I played a "fair" deck was Cloudthresher or Broodmate Dragon in Standard 5 Color Control or Baneslayer Angel in Standard UW Tapout and Control later on. I could close the game quickly between double dragons and Cruel Ultimatum, but I could never do over 20 damage through a field of blockers. Plus, the answers to creatures were a lot better at that time.

I am not going to post more because this will probably erase, so I'll leave it at that...
yeah, battle rage + a giant shadow can be lethal fast. Although my first encounter with shadow decks, I was thinking the deck was easy, because beat them easily game 1. On game 2 my creatures were killed by drown in sorrow, and they started looping kolaghan's command, snapcaster, and tasigur, to keep bringing back killed shadows - a few more games, and I realized shadow decks are the real thing. Thankfully, my main deck at that time is uw, so I have the tools - celestial purge, rip, halo, pte.
_______________________________

not much more to say... hoping Sfm does not get re-banned, because I'm going to re-buy one or two copies of her. Need sfm to fetch skull.
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Twin is twin and the most polarizing card in history.
This alone is not a valid argument though. Especially when many criticisms of it, including the text by which it was banned, were ostensibly shown to be false.
It is not an argument, it is a statement. It won't come back was what I was implying.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
yeah, battle rage + a giant shadow can be lethal fast. Although my first encounter with shadow decks, I was thinking the deck was easy, because beat them easily game 1. On game 2 my creatures were killed by drown in sorrow, and they started looping kolaghan's command, snapcaster, and tasigur, to keep bringing back killed shadows - a few more games, and I realized shadow decks are the real thing. Thankfully, my main deck at that time is uw, so I have the tools - celestial purge, rip, halo, pte.
I miss those builds of Shadow. Very grindy and tempo. I reluctantly kept mine that way much longer than I should have. It's been a long time since I've seen those ones do well. Seems now it's "double strike + trample or bust" most of the time. Much less interesting or fun to play.

In other news, From the Vault Fetchlands was announced: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-03-13

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

So in other news, I was looking into how I could break Veil, and honestly there doesn't seem to be a way because it's ultimately a busted reactive card, in a game (game, not format) that doesn't promote reactive as the best way to play.

2 options.

1. Some weird painter deck could turn everything Blue. You then have Veil and Dispute to answer pretty much everything.

2. RUG Scapeshift. Not likely needed, but it is a reactive Green/Blue deck, that historically had issues with Discard and Counters.

What I'm likely putting together is a Breach Storm deck. :D
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
How would it play out if the artifact lands were unbanned? I hope they will be, because I love artifact decks hehe.

Would it be less explosive than having Mox Opal, but better in the mid/long game because of more artifacts on the table aka more synergy/power?
Karn the great creator and Collector Ouphe are two natural enemies of those lands, so there's definitely stuff to keep them in check.
Affinity is one of the easiest decks to pack sideboard hate for, because it takes splash damage from several other decks. Graveyard hate like Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void is fantastic against Ravager, Plague Engineer is strong against a field of X/1's, Kolaghan's Command keeps it down, Chalice of the Void hits it hard, Collector Ouphe, Karn, and others all deal with artifacts well (Force of Nature even massively hurts them).

As far as aggro decks go, Affinity is one of the safest to have in the format because it's an easy target to sideboard against.

And, like I said in my earlier arguments, not only is the original ban reason no longer relevant, but there is an actual hole in the current metagame in having aggressive heavily creature based decks. And the only one which was even a possible factor was Affinity which was wiped out as splash damage from Mox. Bringing back the artifact lands makes a lot of sense in my opinion.
Do you think adding the artifact lands would make the Urza decks stronger aka the reason Mox Opal got banned? I have a feeling Affinity and Hardened Scales will have a tough time because of being hit by bans and hate that's meant for the Urza deck, but sadly hits the other decks too.
An unbanning of the artifact lands is probably being held back because of Urza getting the power of Mox Opal back in a sense. I know it's not quite the same, but the artifact lands are definitely a type of fuel hehe.
I hope there's some sort of help coming to the aggro based artifact decks soon.

I remember I played against a dude at my LGS's fnm who had a completely foiled out Affinity deck with Mox Opal sleeves and playmat. I feel bad for him now.
No. I think artifact lands would do very little for Urza. Single color, can't fetch, can't cast Astrolabe, does not accelerate mana. They may play a couple but it wouldn't be a meaningful boost.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Honestly, if I was looking to buy or build a new deck, it would be one of these 3.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2828440#paper - Breach Combo/Control
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2828441#paper - Snowblade
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2828443#paper - 4C Control

I refuse to play T3feri however...so would make an intentionally worse version of probably the first one.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
No. I think artifact lands would do very little for Urza. Single color, can't fetch, can't cast Astrolabe, does not accelerate mana. They may play a couple but it wouldn't be a meaningful boost.
Artifact lands would do little for affinity as well. If anything, they'd supercharge Emry/Breach/Station combos.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Honestly, if I was looking to buy or build a new deck, it would be one of these 3.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2828440#paper - Breach Combo/Control
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2828441#paper - Snowblade
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2828443#paper - 4C Control

I refuse to play T3feri however...so would make an intentionally worse version of probably the first one.
Menguchi 5-0'd the MODO event yesterday with a Breach deck, which is how I'd build it, without the control elements and more WinCons.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
which is how I'd build it, without the control elements and more WinCons.
My personal dissatisfaction with the format is directly tied to how frequently this is the optimal solution. :sick: :sweat: :\

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Artifact lands would do little for affinity as well. If anything, they'd supercharge Emry/Breach/Station combos.
Affinity would change it's cards for sure, to use actual cards with Affinity again, but that would get them the acceleration they lost with Mox gone. Emry wouldn't see much change in her power level. The cards are completely safe.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
yeah, battle rage + a giant shadow can be lethal fast. Although my first encounter with shadow decks, I was thinking the deck was easy, because beat them easily game 1. On game 2 my creatures were killed by drown in sorrow, and they started looping kolaghan's command, snapcaster, and tasigur, to keep bringing back killed shadows - a few more games, and I realized shadow decks are the real thing. Thankfully, my main deck at that time is uw, so I have the tools - celestial purge, rip, halo, pte.
I miss those builds of Shadow. Very grindy and tempo. I reluctantly kept mine that way much longer than I should have. It's been a long time since I've seen those ones do well. Seems now it's "double strike + trample or bust" most of the time. Much less interesting or fun to play.

In other news, From the Vault Fetchlands was announced: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-03-13
that's what I like about modern. Decks always try to evolve to become better. :)

nice new art on the zen fetchlands. I wonder how much they would cost?
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I added up the prices on one of the site I use, and buying 1 of each would be around $275 USD.

Mostly because Oko and Uro have inflated the price of Misty, and Tarns/Catacombs will forever be 50+...
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
which is how I'd build it, without the control elements and more WinCons.
My personal dissatisfaction with the format is directly tied to how frequently this is the optimal solution. :sick: :sweat: :\
It's not the format anymore. You would be hard pressed to convince me that it's not just Magic now. It's been like this since we'll...before Eldrazi.

True UW control, not prison, has only existed in her solved meta games, which never last because they eventually get banned out.

Tempo is still a threat deck. Everything but Prison or Draw Go, is.

I just want a beautiful UR deck that I can enjoy, but even something as busted as Veil is not enough to push for a reactive deck because it's about protecting, not answering.

Modern will never fit your views again, and the more I look at the history the less confident I am that my perception of interaction DOESN'T already align with what we have today.

I'm going to see if I can fit Remands into my Breach deck, because ultimately, it's about specific cards to me now and Remand is one.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
yeah, battle rage + a giant shadow can be lethal fast. Although my first encounter with shadow decks, I was thinking the deck was easy, because beat them easily game 1. On game 2 my creatures were killed by drown in sorrow, and they started looping kolaghan's command, snapcaster, and tasigur, to keep bringing back killed shadows - a few more games, and I realized shadow decks are the real thing. Thankfully, my main deck at that time is uw, so I have the tools - celestial purge, rip, halo, pte.
I miss those builds of Shadow. Very grindy and tempo. I reluctantly kept mine that way much longer than I should have. It's been a long time since I've seen those ones do well. Seems now it's "double strike + trample or bust" most of the time. Much less interesting or fun to play.

In other news, From the Vault Fetchlands was announced: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-03-13
that's what I like about modern. Decks always try to evolve to become better. :)

nice new art on the zen fetchlands. I wonder how much they would cost?
I just don't like that the evolution is "How can I remove interaction with my opponents and instead just kill them faster?"

Modern feels like it is effectively a format where decks play themselves a majority of time. The most important decisions you actually make in Modern are in deck selection, sideboarding choices, and mulliganing. The actual gameplay decisions you make within games you play seem unimportant and inconsequential.

I wish there was some option to play where I could both encourage my opponent to slow down and play more interaction, as well as punish those who choose to kill as fast as possible while not interacting. If only.

Then again, I haven't played more than 2 FNMs since August, and nothing in paper at all since early November. The rounds I jam online are in the free practice rooms, away from much of the misery I hate about Modern. Some of the best games I have are in playing against other clunky bad blue decks and midrange mirrors. Games where my decisions matter. And when they don't, at least my whole evening isn't ruined and I didn't lose money.

As for the fetches, I think the art looks SWEET. But they are non-foils so.... a bit meh for me. I have foil Tarns, Strands, Deltas, and Mires already. I would have loved to upgrade the Tarns to these, but will pass this time around. I have other non-foil enemy fetches, but don't really use them in anything. Cool product, but an easy pass for me personally.

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