[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
I would much rather they hit Field or Dryad if they need to ban another card.
Exactly, there are so many other cards that could be taken out instead, because lets be real, Titan was 'fine' for a very long time.

The sooner folks understand that its not Magic that was flawed, its 2019 and the London Mulligan...the better.
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Post by Mapccu » 1 year ago

While I get the DRS/Astrolabe comparisons, DRS has a lot of revenant text in an open meta. He doesn't just fix colors...He gains life, has reach, and eats GYs too. I don't think releasing the boogie men of the past to deal with bad designs today is the answer.

Modern is still going to feel awful to me even with OUaT gone. I still can't reasonably interact with anything my opponent is going to do. Maybe I'm just not adjusting to new pillars being established. I dunno.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Mapccu wrote:
1 year ago
Modern is still going to feel awful to me even with OUaT gone. I still can't reasonably interact with anything my opponent is going to do. Maybe I'm just not adjusting to new pillars being established. I dunno.
I'm curious to test this assumption myself. Looking at the various decks floating around, I feel...more optimistic that usual. Maybe its because I immediately thought Breach was busted and would be fun to mess with and its not 'broken' yet. :D
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
I just have no idea what drives Wizards' unban decisions. I still believe bans are mostly predictable, as are the "No changes" announcements. But unbans? It's all 8 balls to me. I think R&D is mostly happy with Modern right now, especially with the newfound strategic diversity in grindier strategies (ty Astrolabe and Urza), and would rather make surgical changes to the format than sweeping ones. An OUaT keeps the format fresh for upcoming PT/GP while also protecting against the disastrous optics of a ramp takeover on these stages. It also doesn't really render any of the big OUaT decks unplayable. If they make any Modern changes at all (a big if given the limitations of MTGO data lone with no paper support), I think it's just with OUaT and then waiting to see what shakes out by May/June.
Unbans have slightly more constraints on them. Not only do they need to be relatively sure the card is safe to unban, but every time a card has been unbanned there has been a reprint for it within a year of the unban. Given what we know of print cycles, this has made it tricky to work out the unban logistics especially when timing them with bans they think they might need. It's possible that Secret Lair printings dramatically reduce the strain of that. Given how inexpensive it is to get the artwork commissioned they could probably commission and then sit on the artwork for such an unban reprint until it's needed.

On the Astrolabe talk, I still think Astrolabe would have been a better hit than Mox Opal, but without Opal in the format anymore Astrolabe isn't quite as egregious. It's still a strong enabler but at the moment it's adding more diversity than it's taking away. You weren't making this comparison but since others were I'll mention it. It's fundamentally different than DRS. DRS was mana acceleration in non green decks (so long as they ran black), and it's stronger non acceleration ability to eat spells and deal damage also came from black mana. DRS would accelerate you and later clock the opponent, Astrolabe does neither.

I'm also having a really hard time gauging what sort of shape Modern is in right now. On the one hand, Jund is doing well and we're seeing Huntmaster of the Fells as a playable sideboard card. On the other hand we have a lot of degenerate decks running around that win or pseudo win on turn 3.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Spsiegel1987 wrote:
1 year ago
OUAT definitely makes more openers keepable for Titan decks. It was a good attempt.

I think if Titan becomes too good after this, they should really consider Titan himself. Let's see if OUAT curbs the deck though.
I would much rather they hit Field or Dryad if they need to ban another card. Wizards really needs to avoid these brutal ban hammers that invalidate player investments. Opal was bad enough this year. No need to add Titan if Wizards can ban marginal cards instead. Modern needs to have a good 2020 after a horrible 2019, and if Wizards keep torpedoing player investments, that's going to hurt our format s health and stability. Titan was fine for years since Bloom got banned. If it's still problematic, Wizards needs to look at the marginal 2019 additions to this deck, rather than blowing up the whole archetype.
The counter argument to this, is that one of the easier ways to pull in new players is to let them convert the cards they already own from recent standard formats into Modern. Meaning that if it's the 2019 cards that eat a ban it's harder to bring players into the format. I don't necessarily think that's true because what keeps people out is the expensive cards more than the recent cards, but Wizards does like to make this type of argument.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

I was kind of hoping that they would ban something from titan decks this b and R. Amulet was what I was hoping for but I guess OUAT is fine too, as it made it a lot easier to find pieces. I have a buddy that plays amulet that is fine with the OUAT ban for the same reason. It keeps the deck playable if not still one of the best decks

I had a set of it because I was off and on considering playing 4c shadow as Grixis felt weak right now. Guess I'll be either back to GDS or on junk stoneblade like I was on

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
I just have no idea what drives Wizards' unban decisions. I still believe bans are mostly predictable, as are the "No changes" announcements. But unbans? It's all 8 balls to me. I think R&D is mostly happy with Modern right now, especially with the newfound strategic diversity in grindier strategies (ty Astrolabe and Urza), and would rather make surgical changes to the format than sweeping ones. An OUaT keeps the format fresh for upcoming PT/GP while also protecting against the disastrous optics of a ramp takeover on these stages. It also doesn't really render any of the big OUaT decks unplayable. If they make any Modern changes at all (a big if given the limitations of MTGO data lone with no paper support), I think it's just with OUaT and then waiting to see what shakes out by May/June.
Unbans have slightly more constraints on them. Not only do they need to be relatively sure the card is safe to unban, but every time a card has been unbanned there has been a reprint for it within a year of the unban. Given what we know of print cycles, this has made it tricky to work out the unban logistics especially when timing them with bans they think they might need. It's possible that Secret Lair printings dramatically reduce the strain of that. Given how inexpensive it is to get the artwork commissioned they could probably commission and then sit on the artwork for such an unban reprint until it's needed.
Other than the seemingly random "toss us a bone" unban of Jace and BBE, and the wayy-early unban of Valakut, every single other unban that Modern has ever seen was a seemingly apologetic "we're sorry" statement that came alongside a massively predictable ban.

Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl unbanned with the Deathrite Shaman ban.
Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned with the Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, and Birthing Pod ban.
Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned with the Eye of Ugin ban.
Stoneforge Mystic unbanned with the Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis and Faithless Looting ban.

Other than the complete randomness of their Jace/BBE B&R, is there any reason to believe they would unban things under any other circumstances? One could argue that Jace/BBE was a response to more than a year of floundering misery and NINE CARDS being banned in a 12-month period. A quick "HEY LOOK OVER HERE!" done to put the spotlight on Modern when Standard was continuing its dumpster fire. Who knows.

All I know is that I have zero faith in WOTC making decisions which are actually in the best interest of the format. But rather, making decisions which present the best optics and perception of a format which is shrouded by data embargo and dwindling attendance.

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Feels very strange watching Breach and Titan stick around while Twin and Pod remain banned. Would love nothing more than to hear from Wizards what their goals for Modern are.
Sell new cards.
Shake up metagames artificially.
Play to the board, not the hand.
Limit combo's that can go off in one turn. (Oops)
Don't you mean Play to the board to activate/trigger abilities your opponent can't deal with OR set up the graveyard to abuse it

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
The most important quote:
The criteria we'll be looking at include overall and matchup-by-matchup win rates, success in tournaments, population in the metagame, and community sentiment playing with and against these decks.
At last, we have an official quote on their ban metrics: One of them is even the unfun criterion ("community sentiment playing with and against these decks"). If the community rages about a deck and doesn't have fun playing against it, WOTC is likely to take action based on that criterion.
I am also glad Wizards highlighted these metrics. It helps us figure out what might be next on the chopping block for any format, Modern included. I also wouldn't stress out too much over the "unfun" criteria. It's too much to say Wizards is "likely" to ban based on that criterion alone. It's probably a mixture of these issues that get cards banned, and I imagine they will use it sparingly. In most cases, an unfun deck/card is also going to violate Wizards' metrics in other ways, probably by being too strong and/or prevalent. Lattice is really the only example of a recent ban that seems driven overwhelmingly by the fun factor. But honestly, if Wizards continues to hit fringe stuff like Lattice to improve play experience without hurting an overall deck, I'm totally okay with that.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
What another utter disappointment. Again with no relevant commentary on format health or the direction they want for Modern.
Forsythe is still promising the proverbial "Modern in 2020 and Beyond" article I pitched in my recent piece. I am cautiously optimistic they will deliver on this promise, and I bet that article will address your concerns. Multi-format B&R updates aren't a good place for that.
Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Spsiegel1987 wrote:
1 year ago
OUAT definitely makes more openers keepable for Titan decks. It was a good attempt.

I think if Titan becomes too good after this, they should really consider Titan himself. Let's see if OUAT curbs the deck though.
I would much rather they hit Field or Dryad if they need to ban another card. Wizards really needs to avoid these brutal ban hammers that invalidate player investments. Opal was bad enough this year. No need to add Titan if Wizards can ban marginal cards instead. Modern needs to have a good 2020 after a horrible 2019, and if Wizards keep torpedoing player investments, that's going to hurt our format s health and stability. Titan was fine for years since Bloom got banned. If it's still problematic, Wizards needs to look at the marginal 2019 additions to this deck, rather than blowing up the whole archetype.
The counter argument to this, is that one of the easier ways to pull in new players is to let them convert the cards they already own from recent standard formats into Modern. Meaning that if it's the 2019 cards that eat a ban it's harder to bring players into the format. I don't necessarily think that's true because what keeps people out is the expensive cards more than the recent cards, but Wizards does like to make this type of argument.
As I wrote about in my recent article, I confidently believe Wizards should (and maybe even will) abandon this stated goal of Modern. Pioneer can serve as the post-Standard home for Standard graduates. Modern can and should be its own thing that is not artificially constrained by the "rotation problem" of Standard. In that regard, Pioneer can be a blessing for Modern's long term stability, as long as Modern is otherwise getting support.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
8
Other than the seemingly random "toss us a bone" unban of Jace and BBE, and the wayy-early unban of Valakut, every single other unban that Modern has ever seen was a seemingly apologetic "we're sorry" statement that came alongside a massively predictable ban.

Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl unbanned with the Deathrite Shaman ban.
Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned with the Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, and Birthing Pod ban.
Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned with the Eye of Ugin ban.
Stoneforge Mystic unbanned with the Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis and Faithless Looting ban.

Other than the complete randomness of their Jace/BBE B&R, is there any reason to believe they would unban things under any other circumstances? One could argue that Jace/BBE was a response to more than a year of floundering misery and NINE CARDS being banned in a 12-month period. A quick "HEY LOOK OVER HERE!" done to put the spotlight on Modern when Standard was continuing its dumpster fire. Who knows.

All I know is that I have zero faith in WOTC making decisions which are actually in the best interest of the format. But rather, making decisions which present the best optics and perception of a format which is shrouded by data embargo and dwindling attendance.
Jace was 100% timed to go along with that Masters release. We saw similar things with Ancestral Visions, and assuming the theory holds Stoneforge Mystic with the upcoming Zendikar part 3. They've done tons of reprints on things they unban, and while you're right that they do seem to try and temper large bans, or sequences of bans with an unban or two, the unbans they have available are a finite quality so they're a bit political with them which includes timing them for when they can reprint it. Though, like I said... Secret Lair might give them way more leeway with this in the future, not to mention the other 1 billion products they're releasing per year that greatly increase the number of reprint slots available.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

blkdemonight wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Feels very strange watching Breach and Titan stick around while Twin and Pod remain banned. Would love nothing more than to hear from Wizards what their goals for Modern are.
Sell new cards.
Shake up metagames artificially.
Play to the board, not the hand.
Limit combo's that can go off in one turn. (Oops)
Don't you mean Play to the board to activate/trigger abilities your opponent can't deal with OR set up the graveyard to abuse it
Not really, I meant what I said.

Before, an entire game could have been played with nothing but land drops, until the game is over in a turn where both players made plays, called bluffs, and found who 'had it'.

Now? You play to the board. Permanents, and the Graveyard, even Exile, are all priority zones of play that are emphasized over the Hand, and hidden information.

The game is less for it, but it's certainly how Wizards has proven they want it.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

I think the Once Upon a Time ban was good. We should give credit to WotC for banning that card. The funny thing is that as an Amulet player, this did barely anything to invalidate my deck. It just made it slightly less consistent. Now I have to go back to 4 Ancient Stirrings, boo hoo. It hurts many other decks way more than it hurts Amulet.

I'm not sure why anyone expected any unbans. Yes, there should be unbans, but seeing as Stoneforge Mystic was banned from 2011 to 2019, I would expect Birthing Pod or Splinter Twin to come off in around 5 more years, right?

Someone in the comments of FB I think stated that the number one banning should be the whole team that put together Throne of Eldraine. Sweet set in many ways IMO, but way too many mistakes. I have already torn up my Once Upon a Times because I don't want someone to tell me, "well, it's still legal in Legacy and Vintage." LMFAO. (In honesty, I should be happy that I got to play that card at all in Pioneer, Standard, and Modern. It went on way too long and could have gotten a ban in all 3 formats immediately TBH.)
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Post by ZephyrScarlet » 1 year ago

Glad they didn't nuke Titan like they did with Opal decks. OuaT banning was a step in the right direction, but I don't know why on earth they didn't ban Veil of Summer as well and just be done with it. Oh well. Hope it gets nixed in the next update. If Titan keeps being prevalent, I would look at Field of the Dead as a way to get it back to previous levels before the whole 2019 debacle rather than delete it from the game entirely.

As for unbans, the most pressing ones for me are:

- Punishing Fire: I literally don't know what this is doing in the banlist anymore. The only explanation I can conjure up is that they know it won't see any play a la Bitterblossom / Ancestral Vision and thus just don't care, but irrelevance shouldn't preclude it from being unbanned. Rather, I think it's an argument for unbanning it and not against, since if it's irrelevant it has no place on the banlist. This card will be probably picked up by Jund for 2-3 weeks and then be dropped off, like they always do with new toys.

- Preordain: Yeah, yeah, Storm, blah blah blah. Honestly, who cares? Storm hasn't been relevant for a long time, and even if the few percentage points gained from swapping Sleight of Hand / Opt for this were enough to propel it to tier 1, what's the problem? It preys on big mana / ramp / do nothing durdle, polices the format, and can be easily interacted with spot removal. Weren't those the arguments for unbanning the enchantment that should not be named? It also will have two eternal tier 1-1,5 predators in Burn and Humans, as those decks won't go away any time soon and have very good matchup against Storm. The upside of course is propping up blue based control and tempo decks like GDS, allowing them to find their tools in time. And who knows, perhaps some flavor of Delver might start to prop up.

After we're done with those, which are the most pressing ones, we could also discuss Green Sun's Zenith and maybe Pod and Twin.

As for answers in MH2, I'm hoping for Daze, some fixed version of Wasteland that's cheaper than Field of Ruin, Swords to Plowshares, Counterspell, and, as a personal wish, Shardless Agent.

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Post by ZephyrScarlet » 1 year ago

@gkourou Punishing Fire is 2RRR + 1 life for the opponent to kill two 2-toughness creatures (or 3 toughness ones when combined with Plague Engineer) that needs two cards to be assembled and is interactable via graveyard hate, in-tribe disruption effects, or simply having too many lords that 2 damage doesn't kill anything. The card's power is laughable by today's standards, and legacy Elves, Merfolk and Goblins all coexisted with it up until Engineer and W&6 released. So ultimately I don't think it will be a nail in the coffin for tribal decks, that's Engineer's job. The card has absolutely no business in the banlist, and a narrow whataboutism about some tier 3 deck is not worth fretting about imo. Besides, I thought you guys were tired of 50 shades of aggro and ships passed in the night and wanted answers?

About Preordain, it's pretty much more of the same. Storm and Ad Nauseam are basically non-issues right now, easily interactable with combos, police big mana and ramp, and an upgrade to one of their cantrips, while giving them some percentage points, won't break anything. Even if it does, you can just ban around the edges easily as those are pretty unique decks with unique cards that no one else uses, so there would be no splash damage and ample room to choose from. Neoform is a travesty, and if a card like Allosaurus Rider, whose sole purpose is to be abused in this kind of way (remember the Bridge from Below rationale?) has to bite the bullet for Preordain to be freed, then so be it. Universal consistency tool > Narrow degenerate combo piece any day of the week.

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

One could argue that the ban list should be as small as possible, just as large as necessary.

But yes, Preordain wouldn't add anything to the format, would give combo decks some marginal improvement... and low-toughness-creatures are bad enough already in this format, Punishing Fire would seal their fate.

And no, with Veil of Summer and T3feri in the format, there is no chance twin will ever be unbanned. I can already see the 4c snow Twin lists that make interaction with the combo impossible. That deck would resolve its combo every time it had the pieces.

I'm kind of weirdly fine with T3feri even though I'm a non-white control player. It's easy enough to counter/discard it or just kill it.

I'm not fine with Veil of Summer. This time around they gave the meta 2 months to shake out. I hope they ban Veil in May or something... I'm even half-fine with Astrolabe staying, but not Veil.

As of right now, 1 in 3 decks have 2-4 copies of Veil in their sb.
1 in 4 have 2 copies of Mystical Dispute, and I say good for them. It's a great card, an efficient 1for1 trade with tempo upside.

Veil is different. It needs to go.

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Post by ModernDefector » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Since everybody is preferring Arcum's Astrolabe and the card is reaching problematic play rates(I would even say bannable ones), just give Preordain to Modern, so that it can have a competitor.
...
Splinter Twin could also be problematic with Veil of summer and T3feri and other, numerous additions.
...
Field of the dead, Veil of summer, Underworld breach(if this reaches problematic levels) need to go and Arcum's Astrolabe needs a special treatment(not sure what that would be yet).
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Unbans need to have a reason to happen. There needs to be an upside(AF told those exact words on twitter).
That means that a card just being surpassed in power level, is not enough of a reason by itself.
Where did Aaron Forsythe say those exact words? I'm curious. Because Stoneforge Mystic didn't add anything to the format. What is the upside to having Stoneforge Mystic in the format? Ancestral Vision, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Bloodbraid Elf, what did those add to the format? You can argue that any card can have an upside to being in the format. Splinter Twin, Deathrite Shaman, Birthing Pod, Green Sun's Zenith, Preordain, Punishing Fire, probably artifact lands now that Opal is gone. Most of those things can add something to the format.

I just think that these things are too subjective to just say a card won't come back if it doesn't have an upside to being in the format. A card should be unbanned if it won't cause problems - that's it! Bridge from Below fits this criteria. Even Umezawa's Jitte, which I would absolutely HATE having in this format could have an upside - play creatures or die, then play bigger ones, then find your Jitte quicker, now win the freaking die roll and have mana dudes, now 1 mana removal in response to equipping while still maintaining everything else.

I've heard some talk about Seething Song from Corey Baumeister and Ross Merriam. Now I know that many people here don't respect these players, but I do and they gained a lot of respect from me for saying that they wondered why Seething Song was banned at the time. Corey admits he knows nothing about that time since he didn't play then, but Ross said Storm was not "even doing good."

*But as for now, we don't know what actually is all right and what's not. We started with cards banned. Some cards may be all right nowadays, even if they weren't initially. It would have been much easier if there was no banlist to start. But that time's come and gone … around 9 years ago. :x
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Guys, I love magic but now it's nothing to me at this moment. World is burning and I think you all still don't realized what's happening at this moment everywhere. I hope it's over soon, but it seems we are in a real big trouble

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins,

SFM had the upside of helping the White colour and some of those midrange/control decks. As of currently, we can see an uptick in SFM in those Bant Urza/Uro/Sfm midrange/control builds. Not all run her, but many do. The upside of unbanning the card was obvious, and that's why many people want her unbanned. It surprises me to hear you saying that.

That said, I am certain Wizards won't unban certain cards, because there is an upside. Punishing fire is obviously not a very strong card. It would be perfectly fine, and probably not being played at all. It's just that it does not add anything. It just runs a small risk of weakening weenie strategies that struggle a little bit more.

Preordain would also not break the format in two. Also, no big upside-reward and a potential risk with combos.

GSZ? Do you think this card would be broken? No. It would probably be fine. I don't even know what deck is interested in playing the card.

Splinter Twin, probably fine (except Veil and T3feri that could broke it) runs the risk of reducing diversity and being too good with those cards.

On the other hand, if one card would slot into some struggling macro-archetype, it would have a high chance of it being unbanned, because it would add diversity, not remove.

BBE was fine, but helped a struggling fair archetype (and could add up diversity into RG fair decks that struggled).

JTMS helped a struggling fair macroarchetype(Control).

Cards should not be unbanned, solely on the puspose of not belonging to the BL for sure. Cards should be unbanned, if they were to make Modern better, more diverse, more fun, more skilltesting, engaging, interactive. That's it.

That's why I want no card unbanned. If Veil is banned, then I think Twin could have an upside. Until then, it's a no.
I think there's a reasonable argument to unban the artifact lands without mox opal or KCI in the format. Aggro decks are weak, and the strongest of them was just taken out with the Opal ban as collateral damage. As such the artifact lands could increase diversity. Remember that they were originally banned due to concerns with Affinity which is no longer a meta game factor and the initial criteria of removing overly dominant standard and extended decks holds much less weight today.

Those are the only cards that I think an unban case exists for right now.

Edit: Of the original set of bans that were targeted at decks which had been too good in previous Standard or Extended formats consisting of the cards:
Stoneforge Mystic
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Bitterblossom
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Ancestral Vision
Artifact Lands

Every card on that list except for the Artifact lands (which cited Affinity) and Mental Misstep (which was in all decks) have been unbanned. Like I said before, aggro is currently weak, and while Affinity was at one time T1, and the last of the original T1 decks to fall, it is no longer anywhere near the top tables. The lands with Opal would have been too much, but without Opal I think they really need to make a comeback as it would increase diversity. The original reasons not only aren't valid any longer but there is an actual reason to unban.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins,
But Rampaging Ferostidon was unbanned:
We periodically review the banned and restricted lists for cards we can remove that will positively impact a format. Rampaging Ferocidon was banned during Ixalan-year Standard in order to weaken aggressive red decks and provide more counterplay by blocking with creatures and gaining life. Since that time, aggressive red decks have become weaker in the metagame as stronger and more varied strategies have emerged.

Two popular new Standard decks enabled by Core Set 2020's release are Scapeshift and Orzhov Vampires. Both decks seek to win by putting lots of small creatures onto the battlefield, and the Orzhov Vampires deck has many ways to gain life. Rampaging Ferocidon should give red aggressive strategies and other decks, like Jund Dinosaurs, an additional option to fight Scapeshift and Orzhov Vampires. While we're generally happy with the health of the Standard metagame right now, we believe Rampaging Ferocidon will further improve the metagame's general balance and ability to self-correct for the remaining Core Set 2020 Standard season, until rotation with the release of Throne of Eldraine.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2019-08-26
Let's see what this framework could show us:

We periodically review the banned and restricted lists for cards we can remove that will positively impact a format. Splinter Twin was banned with the intention to increase competitive diversity of high level play, including Pro Tours, as well as to to allow similar suppressed decks to thrive. Since that time, in addition to our predictions being wrong, reactionary and control decks have become weaker in the metagame as stronger and more varied strategies have emerged.

A ton of things printed in the last few years have fundamentally changed the landscape of Modern, including raising the overall power level. Splinter Twin should give reactive and control an additional option to fight Titan and Tron and Urza and Dredge. While we're generally happy with the health of the Modern metagame right now, we believe Splinter Twin will further improve the metagame's general balance and ability to self-correct thanks to its ability to help fight fast/degenerate decks, while being vulnerable to interaction and generalized answer cards that are broad and universally available to all decks.

Just thinking out loud....

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FoodChainGoblins
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins,

SFM had the upside of helping the White colour and some of those midrange/control decks. As of currently, we can see an uptick in SFM in those Bant Urza/Uro/Sfm midrange/control builds. Not all run her, but many do. The upside of unbanning the card was obvious, and that's why many people want her unbanned. It surprises me to hear you saying that.

That said, I am certain Wizards won't unban certain cards, because there is an upside. Punishing fire is obviously not a very strong card. It would be perfectly fine, and probably not being played at all. It's just that it does not add anything. It just runs a small risk of weakening weenie strategies that struggle a little bit more.

Preordain would also not break the format in two. Also, no big upside-reward and a potential risk with combos.

GSZ? Do you think this card would be broken? No. It would probably be fine. I don't even know what deck is interested in playing the card.

Splinter Twin, probably fine (except Veil and T3feri that could broke it) runs the risk of reducing diversity and being too good with those cards.

On the other hand, if one card would slot into some struggling macro-archetype, it would have a high chance of it being unbanned, because it would add diversity, not remove.

BBE was fine, but helped a struggling fair archetype (and could add up diversity into RG fair decks that struggled).

JTMS helped a struggling fair macroarchetype(Control).

Cards should not be unbanned, solely on the puspose of not belonging to the BL for sure. Cards should be unbanned, if they were to make Modern better, more diverse, more fun, more skilltesting, engaging, interactive. That's it.

That's why I want no card unbanned. If Veil is banned, then I think Twin could have an upside. Until then, it's a no.
So, what you're saying is that Mox Opal will be unbanned to help Affinity/Scales, while Urza, Lord High Artificer will be banned? Or are you saying that Bridge from Below will be unbanned because Crabvine is not even played at all anymore? Dredge wouldn't play it, so you're safe there. Poor Crabvine…

Punishing Fire, Deathrite Shaman, Birthing Pod … all of these would help the dying deck type that is Midrange. I'm assuming that WotC believes Death Shadow to be Midrange, so I guess all Midrange decks are pigeonholed into a 13/13 creature that makes you vulnerable to a small amount of life loss.

You guys know how I believe. If a card is not broken, it should NOT be on the ban list. It's that simple. You can't have cards that are not considered broken by a single soul and keep printing Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, T3feri, Oko, Underworld Breach, and those types of cards. It is a blatant slap in the face to people who want to run Green Sun's Zenith in their 3-2 FNM deck.

*The bottom line is that the ban list reeks of hypocrisy and that really turns off players. You can get away with it only so long before nobody wants to play the format, but then again, maybe that's what they want? (probably should have left Oko and Once if they TRULY wanted that)

**And if the argument is ever something like we don't want Preordain to help Neobrand, guess what? WotC owns the company - they're allowed to ban Allosaurus Rider. Nobody's stopping them.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Simto
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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

How would it play out if the artifact lands were unbanned? I hope they will be, because I love artifact decks hehe.

Would it be less explosive than having Mox Opal, but better in the mid/long game because of more artifacts on the table aka more synergy/power?
Karn the great creator and Collector Ouphe are two natural enemies of those lands, so there's definitely stuff to keep them in check.

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

If Green SUN'S zenith gets unbanned, isn't there a risk that people would just abuse Dryad arbor? At this rate I'd rather see Deathrite Shaman getting unbanned

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Birthing Pod is a combo card. It also gives a fine plan B of increased value to rub salt in the wound. It needs to stay banned. Forever.
Drs is an obnoxious 1 mana planeswalker in any format with fetches.
Twin is twin and the most polarizing card in history.

Unbans need an upside. The process of bans is pretty haphazard but most of the banlist is fair, or would be if they took the same approach today as they once did rather than letting things exist that are as bad as those offenders from history.
We would need a smaller banlist if they printed better maindeckable answers that punished the linear decks, get that right and things will improve.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Twin is twin and the most polarizing card in history.
This alone is not a valid argument though. Especially when many criticisms of it, including the text by which it was banned, were ostensibly shown to be false.

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