[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

This? https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/m ... 5520#paper

If thats what you are talking about, thats a meme right there, in Paper form, but no you are right, one %$#% random list.

Just another example, to go with

Niv lists.
Snowblade lists.
Urza lists.

I dont care if it meta games for Titan, you cannot tell me that is the 'best' or 'right' approach to Titan.

The list in question has.

4 Colors.
Blood Moons.
Cryptics and Charms
Veil of Summer
T3feri.
Uro's
Wrenn

Honestly other than Bolt, the least offensive card is Jace TMS! lol

If you think that deck is just a metagame call, and not a cannary in the coal mine for 'wow this format is %$#% DUMB', then cool I guess.

I look at it and see a deck that spits in the face of color identity, mana base/color 'greed', and laughs off any pretense of having to worry about it because it runs its own blood moons!

If that's the direction of Magic, forget Modern but Magic itself, you can have it.
UR Control UR

User avatar
Albegas
Posts: 149
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

This is probably an unpopular opinion driven by me buying into Urza post-ban, but while 4c goodstuff is awful in Standard and questionable in Legacy, it seems less out of whack in Modern. Modern is almost defined by synergistic decks. Just going down the list of things that don't need Astrolabe, we have Tron, E-Tron, Humans, Shadow decks, Heliod Company, and Dredge. Add less synergistic decks and you can add Jund and RDW/Burn to the list.

So I think the real question is this: what's gained from banning Astrolabe? All those decks mentioned still exist, button now we potentially lose the last artifact deck in Modern in the form of Urza decks and multiple goodstuff decks like Bant Snowblade. Yeah we can ban on principle, but we'll just go right back to complaining about the lack of opiltions for fair decks and how the meta is defined by the synergistic linear decks

Astrolabe will likely need to go at some point, but now doesn't seem like the time. Improve the card quality of generic goodstuff decks, throw artifact decks some useful 1-drip or 2, and then reevaluate (and ban) Astrolabe

Spsiegel1987
Posts: 38
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Spsiegel1987 » 1 year ago

...Because it breaks the color pie without any drawbacks. That's why 4C shouldn't be viable. I don't really think I need to clarify more than that.

Jesus, guys. Some of your opinions border on satire.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

It can be viable, assuming you can answer it with the type of card that is intended to punish greed.

When it also pulls those out of the board and cast them turn 3 off triple Island....
UR Control UR

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 862
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
It can be viable, assuming you can answer it with the type of card that is intended to punish greed.

When it also pulls those out of the board and cast them turn 3 off triple Island....
Yes, this. I am a player who is known for loving a lot of different stuff in Magic - I love the game. One of the things I used to love a lot was playing as many colors and jamming as many super broken things as I can. But I was willing to lose to Blood Moon. Yes, things are more complicated with the London Mulligan regarding my chances to see that, but still I feel like you are taking that chance to just straight up lose to it. Otherwise, you just play broken, super stupid stuff.

For examples of this, I am talking about 4 Color Gifts, Bring to Light Shift, and now Niv Mizzet Reborn and many others. There was some COST to running this many colors. Now, there simply isn't.

Regarding artifact decks "dying," WotC did that when they chose to ban Mox Opal rather than Urza, Lord High Artificer. That was their decision. Now they have to live by it and ban around Urza unless it gets to the point where a GP is like GP Hogaak, which I remember as that and don't even remember the location I played in (I'm assuming it was Las Vegas).
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

blkdemonight
Posts: 80
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

Cramming snow artifacts into 4c good stuff gives me yugioh vibes. Putting cards meant for one archetype to prop up a completely different archetype.

TheBoulderer
Posts: 88
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

Albegas wrote:
1 year ago
This is probably an unpopular opinion driven by me buying into Urza post-ban, but while 4c goodstuff is awful in Standard and questionable in Legacy, it seems less out of whack in Modern. Modern is almost defined by synergistic decks. Just going down the list of things that don't need Astrolabe, we have Tron, E-Tron, Humans, Shadow decks, Heliod Company, and Dredge. Add less synergistic decks and you can add Jund and RDW/Burn to the list.
This is probably a good time to clarify that just because an argument is eloquently put, doesn't mean it's any less insane and faulty.

Arguing that decks existing that don't utilize Astrolabe for color fixing makes Astrolabe ok is completely insane. You just literally pointed out that E-Tron, A COLORLESS DECK, or MONO RED Prowess don't utilize Astrolabe and therefore its somehow less of an issue.

I mean, no offense, but reasoning doesn't get much more absurd than this.

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 2115
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Contact:

Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
edit: I'm confident astrolabe will not get banned. Banmania should stop.
Oh and this?

<snip>

Read this, there are absolutely ground level, fundamental, issues with cards like Astrolabe. It should not exist.
saw that. But are these 4 color astrolabe decks using blood moon actually winning plenty of tournaments? we need some data first.
Image
AnimEVO 2020 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 592
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago

In Legacy I don't have an issue with it in Modern I have an issue with it but I have a bigger issue with threats than answers dominating the format. Veil is small potatoes, bannable, sure, but not more bannable than Amulet, Urza, et al.
That logic is faulty though IMO, because Veil of Summer isn't an answer to threats, it's a card that accompanies the very threats you say are pushed (and they are in some cases). A control deck would never run Veil. So Veil actually contributes to and increases the gap between threats and answers. Answers now don't just have to deal with pushed threats, but with pushed threats + pushed protection.

That means that with every new threat that is printed, reactive strategies have to evaluate it with Veil of Summer in mind.
You need to play Legacy to get this one.
Control decks run veil. In fact it is more of a control deck card. 4c pile, bant miracles. The logic is fine, I was referring to Legacy, where it is a control card played in control decks and combo decks, in fact in Legacy the Veil is in Depths only as a combo deck, and some Storm variants, it is in control decks far more.
In Modern it is bannable, but so is half the format.

TheBoulderer
Posts: 88
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
In Modern it is bannable, but so is half the format.
That is pure polemic nonsense.

Also, I assumed you were refering to modern, hence this thread's name ;) I concede i don't know squat about Legacy.

User avatar
Tzoulis
Posts: 314
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
This? https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/m ... 5520#paper

If thats what you are talking about, thats a meme right there, in Paper form, but no you are right, one %$#% random list.

Just another example, to go with

Niv lists.
Snowblade lists.
Urza lists.

I dont care if it meta games for Titan, you cannot tell me that is the 'best' or 'right' approach to Titan.

The list in question has.

4 Colors.
Blood Moons.
Cryptics and Charms
Veil of Summer
T3feri.
Uro's
Wrenn

Honestly other than Bolt, the least offensive card is Jace TMS! lol

If you think that deck is just a metagame call, and not a cannary in the coal mine for 'wow this format is %$#% DUMB', then cool I guess.

I look at it and see a deck that spits in the face of color identity, mana base/color 'greed', and laughs off any pretense of having to worry about it because it runs its own blood moons!

If that's the direction of Magic, forget Modern but Magic itself, you can have it.
You calling it a meme and an affront to color identity (which it isn't) betrays your extreme bias and fundamental failure to grasp a few basic things.

5C Niv runs 12 plus ways to get five colors and it gets hosed by Blood Moon (it also doesn't run it), the aforementioned deck that got you so wind up IS A %$#% RANDOM DECK IN A %$#% RANDOM EVENT THAT WENT WELL AND USES 15 WAYS TO GET ITS MANA. It's also badly build manawise. It metagames against titan, hard, which you keep choosing to ignore. I've run Blood Moon in my Jeskai Control lists because it hurts them more than it hurts me. Others have too when the meta is hostile to their decks.

Running Blood Moons and having to worry about it are 2 different things. I have killed UW control lists that run 9 basics with Blood Moon. They shouldn't worry about it, but they can still get hosed by it. You obsessing over one random list and others that wouldn't worry about it either way or that DO have an issue with Blood Moon is misrepresenting both their gameplans and weaknesses.

I've casted Blood Moon in my Thopter/Sword lists before Astrolabe was even a thing through a Pentad Prism and it didn't even hurt me. It also was used because my meta was full of big mana decks and they were the worst match up.

Did you run and empty supermarkets because of COVID-19? Because that's the kind of mentality you're displaying here, not caution, extreme overreaction.
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
In Modern it is bannable, but so is half the format.
Legacy is 75% bannable cards. These are just platitudes and quips edging on trolling. Jesus, get a grip people.
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
saw that. But are these 4 color astrolabe decks using blood moon actually winning plenty of tournaments? we need some data first.
.

Not really, other than 3 color snow lists that is -that don't even run Blood Moon- but that doesn't stop people from overreacting.

TheBoulderer
Posts: 88
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago

You calling it a meme and an affront to color identity (which it isn't) betrays your extreme bias and fundamental failure to grasp a few basic things.

5C Niv runs 12 plus ways to get five colors and it gets hosed by Blood Moon (it also doesn't run it), the aforementioned deck that got you so wind up IS A %$#% RANDOM DECK IN A %$#% RANDOM EVENT THAT WENT WELL AND USES 15 WAYS TO GET ITS MANA.
Not really, other than 3 color snow lists that is -that don't even run Blood Moon- but that doesn't stop people from overreacting.
The deck posted above is an extreme example and an outlier, that is true. But I'll try breaking down the issue with Astrolabe into 3 parts:

1) Snow mana bases are much less painful than non-snow ones. That applies to 4-5c decks of course, but especially to 3color decks like Bant (which is a tier 1 deck) and Sultai (which is getting there). Urza too. Urza now is a 2-4 color deck, and still it can often start by fetching 4 basics in a row. Bant Snow fetches island-island-forest, has an Astrolabe out and is set up perfectly color-wise because of Astrolabe. Non-snow-3-color decks already take a lot of damage from fetch- and shock lands, i.e. Jund, Grixis, Esper, Naya. And the cost of running Astrolabe is practically non-existent.

2) If you get right down to it, the specific purpose of colors in MTG is to create identity and diversity in the game. People have tried in the past, eg. splashing white into Jund for Lingering Souls or blue for Snapcaster Mage. It proved to painful and inconsistent. You can't run choke in a blue deck. You can't run Blood Moon in a non-red deck. You can't run Rest in Peace in dredge. You can't run Stony Silence in artifact decks.

Doesn't it give you pause that decks with literally zero red mana sources sideboard Blood Moon?

3) About "numbers to back up a ban". Aside from the fact that Bant Snow, plus more broadly Simic Uro with random splashes is a tier 1 deck (which is fine by itself), there is a vast plethora of decks facilitating greedy mana with Astrolabe. It's by far the most played artifact in modern. Jeskai and Bant are morphing into each other, Jeskai splashing Astrolabe for Icefang, Wrenn, Uro, etc. 18% of decks in modern play 3.9 copies of Astrolabe. Thats every 4th deck on a snow mana base.

User avatar
Tzoulis
Posts: 314
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago

You calling it a meme and an affront to color identity (which it isn't) betrays your extreme bias and fundamental failure to grasp a few basic things.

5C Niv runs 12 plus ways to get five colors and it gets hosed by Blood Moon (it also doesn't run it), the aforementioned deck that got you so wind up IS A %$#% RANDOM DECK IN A %$#% RANDOM EVENT THAT WENT WELL AND USES 15 WAYS TO GET ITS MANA.
Not really, other than 3 color snow lists that is -that don't even run Blood Moon- but that doesn't stop people from overreacting.
The deck posted above is an extreme example and an outlier, that is true. But I'll try breaking down the issue with Astrolabe into 3 parts:

1) Snow mana bases are much less painful than non-snow ones. That applies to 4-5c decks of course, but especially to 3color decks like Bant (which is a tier 1 deck) and Sultai (which is getting there). Urza too. Urza now is a 2-4 color deck, and still it can often start by fetching 4 basics in a row. Bant Snow fetches island-island-forest, has an Astrolabe out and is set up perfectly color-wise because of Astrolabe. Non-snow-3-color decks already take a lot of damage from fetch- and shock lands, i.e. Jund, Grixis, Esper, Naya. And the cost of running Astrolabe is practically non-existent.

2) If you get right down to it, the specific purpose of colors in MTG is to create identity and diversity in the game. People have tried in the past, eg. splashing white into Jund for Lingering Souls or blue for Snapcaster Mage. It proved to painful and inconsistent. You can't run choke in a blue deck. You can't run Blood Moon in a non-red deck. You can't run Rest in Peace in dredge. You can't run Stony Silence in artifact decks.

Doesn't it give you pause that decks with literally zero red mana sources sideboard Blood Moon?

3) About "numbers to back up a ban". Aside from the fact that Bant Snow, plus more broadly Simic Uro with random splashes is a tier 1 deck (which is fine by itself), there is a vast plethora of decks facilitating greedy mana with Astrolabe. It's by far the most played artifact in modern. Jeskai and Bant are morphing into each other, Jeskai splashing Astrolabe for Icefang, Wrenn, Uro, etc. 18% of decks in modern play 3.9 copies of Astrolabe. Thats every 4th deck on a snow mana base.
I know the problem with Astrolabe and if you look through my recent posts, you'll see me acknowledging it as one. BUT, and it's a big but:

1. There are other BIGGER issues plaguing Modern atm namely Veil, T3feri and OUaT. Not a card that while makes 4c-5c manabases easier promotes a HUGE number of fair decks. I can live with the latter -for now.
2. The above reactions are WAY overboard when there are the aforementioned problems in Modern atm.

Every deck that runs Blood Moon has red in it's deck, not just for it. I played it in UW control before Field of Ruin was printed with only one shock and it went badly. Astrolabe WON'T fix THAT problem, because it's 4 cards that have to be replaced. I run Blood Moon (and Goblin Engineer) in my Whirza deck, but I also run 2 Pentad Prisms, 1 Steam Vents and I play 1 Aethergrid as well. It's literally a splash. While Astrolabe helps, Red is just a Splash and I run it for the cantrip and because it's an artifact NOT because it's fixing my mana. Likewise for the Snow Decks. 5C Niv has it's whole deck BUILT around having access to all colors. One random list, with bad mana base isn't the "canary in a coal min" that they;'re yelling about.

iTaLenTZ
Posts: 226
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Banning OUAT will only kill off Creature toolbox decks and other decks that have emerged with it while only hitting Eldratron, Tron and Amulet at the margin. Tron will go back to Ancient Stirrings and Sylvan Scrying, Eldratron didn't really needed it anyway, Amulet Titan will play Explore again. For these problematic big mana decks almost nothing changes while the not so problematic ones are pushed out of existence.

Add Astrolabe staying legal and you have another guaranteed 3 months Modern disaster. A meta with only big mana decks and 4/5c Astrolabe decks.

The fundamental problem with big mana decks has persisted for years despite Wizards trying to print answers like Alpine Moon and stuff that just doesn't cut it. Damping Sphere should have cost 1 mana. A lot of graveyard hate is also 1 mana like Grafdigger's Cage. The only way this fundamental problem is going to get solved with new pushed answers.

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 862
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
1. There are other BIGGER issues plaguing Modern atm namely Veil, T3feri and OUaT. Not a card that while makes 4c-5c manabases easier promotes a HUGE number of fair decks. I can live with the latter -for now.
2. The above reactions are WAY overboard when there are the aforementioned problems in Modern atm.

Every deck that runs Blood Moon has red in it's deck, not just for it. I played it in UW control before Field of Ruin was printed with only one shock and it went badly. Astrolabe WON'T fix THAT problem, because it's 4 cards that have to be replaced. I run Blood Moon (and Goblin Engineer) in my Whirza deck, but I also run 2 Pentad Prisms, 1 Steam Vents and I play 1 Aethergrid as well. It's literally a splash. While Astrolabe helps, Red is just a Splash and I run it for the cantrip and because it's an artifact NOT because it's fixing my mana. Likewise for the Snow Decks. 5C Niv has it's whole deck BUILT around having access to all colors. One random list, with bad mana base isn't the "canary in a coal min" that they;'re yelling about.
I'm sorry, but "issues in Modern" is very subjective and can only be proven in 1 way - prevalence of the actual card in the current meta. That being said, these are the cards that are overplayed...

1. Once Upon a Time - do I really have to say how much this card is played?
2. Arcum's Astrolabe - popping up in any deck that doesn't mind taking off a turn for 1 mana, draw a card.

3. Veil of Summer - it is not played enough yet. We know the effect it has on Modern and that's terrible. I am naturally a UB player and I will continue to stay away from MY COLORS with a 10 foot pole.
4. Teferi, Time Raveler - %$#% design, stops a bunch of stuff from happening. Still, the card is in 4 Tier 2 deck lists at most. (Sorry, I forgot that Underworld Breach plays 2, but then that deck should not exist.)
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

TheBoulderer
Posts: 88
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
Banning OUAT will only kill off Creature toolbox decks and other decks that have emerged with it while only hitting Eldratron, Tron and Amulet at the margin. Tron will go back to Ancient Stirrings and Sylvan Scrying, Eldratron didn't really needed it anyway, Amulet Titan will play Explore again.
OuaT didn't replace Explore in Amulet Titan, it replaced Ancient Stirrings, my friend. And there is a world between T0 OuaT and T1 Stirrings. It means you cant dig for a threat/landdork as your t1 play AND drop a dork. and you also cant dig for a threat later.

Tron and ETron aren't really hit at all, Etron is completely fine without it, and again, GTron defaults back to Stirrings.

Toolbox has multiple powerful alternatives at its disposal. Those kind of decks arent supposed to have access to a cantrip. They have tutors.

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 862
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Yes, Once Upon a Time replaces Ancient Stirrings in Amulet Titan. It's funny that a card that so many talked about banning before (Ancient Stirrings) ended up getting dropped for the more broken card.

As for Green Tron, they don't run Once Upon a Time. They are running Ancient Stirrings. Stirrings finds what they need to win the game - Tron lands and planeswalkers. Creatures do almost nothing for them.

And I agree regarding Toolbox decks, which I also had played for quite a while. They don't need the cantrip - they have tutors. The reason for their decline before Once came out was because of other stuff happening in the meta, not because they are not a strong enough deck. (If there's a good deck, broken decks can make that good deck look rather crappy.)
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
ktkenshinx
Posts: 571
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: West Coast
Contact:

Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

I don't fully understand why Astrolabe is bad for Modern. One of Modern's biggest criticisms is that it doesn't support a wide variety of strategic diversity. By most accounts, Astrolabe appears to push a large subset of midrange and control decks towards new viability. Sure, Astrolabe has some unfortunate side effects of helping out travesties like that Breach nonsense (not currently bannable but not a great look for the format), but it overwhelmingly appears to help grindier strategies. Most of these strategies haven't been viable for years, whether more controlling decks like the Astrolabe Walkers decks, 4C midrange good stuff piles, "true" midrange/combo like Simic Urza, and others. Meanwhile, you can still play more traditional, non-Astrolabe decks in Jund and UW Stoneblade, both of which continue to put up decent MTGO results. All of this suggests Astrolabe might just be a type of format staple that enables a wide variety of decks that otherwise might not see play and historically have struggled.

I contrast Astrolabe with OUaT in a number of key regards. The biggest one is that OUaT doesn't actually define any powerful decks. It's just a free upgrade to decks that absolutely do not need upgrades to be viable. Eldrazi Tron, G Tron, Amulet Titan, Infect, Neobrand, Collected Combos, and others are all perfectly competitive without OUaT's support. MTGO (admittedly, not a complete dataset) strongly suggests these decks are too dominant and prevalent with OUaT in the picture. Of course, there are other players influencing these numbers. Dryad, Field, Uro, and other awesome 2019/2020 design decisions have pushed these decks from all angles, and it's difficult to isolate the impact of OUaT alone. At the same time, it's clear from overlapping deckbuilding and gameplay that OUaT gives a massive consistency boost to decks that have plenty of tools as is. It's undoubtedly one of the cards pushing these strategies, and unlike Dryad/Field/Titan/Map/Amulet, isn't really a key part of those decks' identities. That makes it an ideal at-the-margins ban target.

Overall, I'd be happy with a Modern format, or a Modern PT, where 25% of the room is on 3C+ Astrolabe good stuff variants. At least, happier with that than if more than half of that 25% switched to various shades of linear, ships passing in the night decks. Modern needs more of these midrangey, controlling piles. It's something we've been fighting for since 2016. Getting rid of Astrolabe and hoping these strategies thrive on their own is an uncertain proposition. The last time Wizards tried to free up interactive diversity was by banning Twin for allegedly homogenizing Ux decks. The metagame share of these decks dropped in the short term and then stabilized at the same level after a half dozen new printings. As with Twin "supplanting" Ux decks, the bad decks Astrolabe is "supplanting" are likely still bad after Astrolabe is gone. At least Astrolabe is giving new life to decks that otherwise wouldn't see a lot of play. Unlike OUaT, which is just overpowering already powerful decks.
Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1177
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Dunno where this specifically slots into the conversation, but it feels like "jund" is just being replaced with "pile of $50 mythics printed within the last year" as the benchmark for not being forced to play some degenerate, yet-to-be banned deck, or an underpowered T2+ pile.

I would love nothing more than try this W6/Uro "Jeskai" deck, but wow is it prohibitively expensive to do so. Even online, that's like $700 span across 8 cards.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
1. There are other BIGGER issues plaguing Modern atm namely Veil, T3feri and OUaT. Not a card that while makes 4c-5c manabases easier promotes a HUGE number of fair decks. I can live with the latter -for now.
I dont disagree here. I just think that 'I play 4 colors and cast Blood Moon off of my 3 islands' is...flawed.

I'm certainly not that upset about it, but its not 'fine' either. These cards are all a problem, and are so far removed from what we used to consider balanced, that it throws a lot of our baseline assumptions out the window.

I personally feel thats my issue. What I considered balanced, is not remotely close to today's top performers.
UR Control UR

iTaLenTZ
Posts: 226
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Overall, I'd be happy with a Modern format, or a Modern PT, where 25% of the room is on 3C+ Astrolabe good stuff variants.
I wouldn't be fine with 50 shades of Astrolabe. It breaks a fundamental definition of what MTG is in that is colour pie. Card needs to go but I fear they will only ban OUAT and hopefully Veil.

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 862
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
I don't fully understand why Astrolabe is bad for Modern. One of Modern's biggest criticisms is that it doesn't support a wide variety of strategic diversity. By most accounts, Astrolabe appears to push a large subset of midrange and control decks towards new viability. Sure, Astrolabe has some unfortunate side effects of helping out travesties like that Breach nonsense (not currently bannable but not a great look for the format), but it overwhelmingly appears to help grindier strategies. Most of these strategies haven't been viable for years, whether more controlling decks like the Astrolabe Walkers decks, 4C midrange good stuff piles, "true" midrange/combo like Simic Urza, and others. Meanwhile, you can still play more traditional, non-Astrolabe decks in Jund and UW Stoneblade, both of which continue to put up decent MTGO results. All of this suggests Astrolabe might just be a type of format staple that enables a wide variety of decks that otherwise might not see play and historically have struggled.

I contrast Astrolabe with OUaT in a number of key regards. The biggest one is that OUaT doesn't actually define any powerful decks. It's just a free upgrade to decks that absolutely do not need upgrades to be viable. Eldrazi Tron, G Tron, Amulet Titan, Infect, Neobrand, Collected Combos, and others are all perfectly competitive without OUaT's support. MTGO (admittedly, not a complete dataset) strongly suggests these decks are too dominant and prevalent with OUaT in the picture. Of course, there are other players influencing these numbers. Dryad, Field, Uro, and other awesome 2019/2020 design decisions have pushed these decks from all angles, and it's difficult to isolate the impact of OUaT alone. At the same time, it's clear from overlapping deckbuilding and gameplay that OUaT gives a massive consistency boost to decks that have plenty of tools as is. It's undoubtedly one of the cards pushing these strategies, and unlike Dryad/Field/Titan/Map/Amulet, isn't really a key part of those decks' identities. That makes it an ideal at-the-margins ban target.

Overall, I'd be happy with a Modern format, or a Modern PT, where 25% of the room is on 3C+ Astrolabe good stuff variants. At least, happier with that than if more than half of that 25% switched to various shades of linear, ships passing in the night decks. Modern needs more of these midrangey, controlling piles. It's something we've been fighting for since 2016. Getting rid of Astrolabe and hoping these strategies thrive on their own is an uncertain proposition. The last time Wizards tried to free up interactive diversity was by banning Twin for allegedly homogenizing Ux decks. The metagame share of these decks dropped in the short term and then stabilized at the same level after a half dozen new printings. As with Twin "supplanting" Ux decks, the bad decks Astrolabe is "supplanting" are likely still bad after Astrolabe is gone. At least Astrolabe is giving new life to decks that otherwise wouldn't see a lot of play. Unlike OUaT, which is just overpowering already powerful decks.
I really hope this is true. I actually don't want Arcum's Astrolabe to be banned. To be honest, I don't want any cards banned right now. I would rather a flurry of unbans happen. But first of all, we know that no unbans will happen. Remember, Stoneforge Mystic took at least 4 years to unban. The format's health depends on some bans right now. Banning Oko was a HUUUGE start. That one there is probably as important as the next 5 bans all together if not more so. But there is still work to be done, mostly not printing busted cards for no reason and then banning cards that have been fine all along.

But yeah, as someone who has played Preordain in every format possible and very extensively, it is ... a … joke compared with Once Upon a Time. If I ever played both in a deck, I'd much rather have Once Upon a Time in my hand and only barely wanted Preordain later on in the game.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I'm playing Omen of the Sea, if the Flash is relevant, its pretty good.
UR Control UR

User avatar
ktkenshinx
Posts: 571
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: West Coast
Contact:

Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Overall, I'd be happy with a Modern format, or a Modern PT, where 25% of the room is on 3C+ Astrolabe good stuff variants.
I wouldn't be fine with 50 shades of Astrolabe. It breaks a fundamental definition of what MTG is in that is colour pie. Card needs to go but I fear they will only ban OUAT and hopefully Veil.
I understand that Astrolabe breaks the color pie at a fundamental level, but I am not convinced this is necessarily a bad thing for formats like Modern. From a metagame perspective, what's wrong with a variety of different, unique 3C+ Astrolabe decks coexisting? Especially when the vast majority of those decks represent the kind of midrange/control strategic diversity we haven't seen in Modern in a long time? Oko had a similar effect on Modern, pushing UGx grindy strategies, but there are key differences between a proactive do-everything engine like Oko that singlehandedly invalidates other kinds of play, vs. Astrolabe which just makes your mana virtually perfect. Astrolabe empowers a variety of strategically distinct strategies including Dimir Urza, Simic Urza, Snowblade (also exists with straight Azorius colors), Sultai/Temur/Bant/4C Snow Control variants, and Grixis Whirza. I'll ignore Breach because that deck is problematic independently of Astrolabe, although not currently bannable by known metrics or criteria. Otherwise, Astrolabe decks seem to boost format diversity and allow a variety of slower, controlling decks to shine. That's not a bad thing, especially because they are largely distinct.

If Wizards bans Astrolabe, we're going back to a Modern where the only viable control deck is straight Azorius Control and the only viable midrange deck is straight Jund. Urza decks will probably still be fine, but we'll lose that spectrum of midrange/control options which currently slow down the format. That's not a great trade-off if Astrolabe's only violations are philosophical.
Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 592
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

@Tzoulis

Yes, it was a flippant comment. If you want to be specific, many more candidates deserve banning in Modern than veil. Is that clear enough for you as to where I stand.
Anyone who thinks Veil should go but that Amulet, Urza, Tron lands are fine, or that Twin should be unbannned needs to get a grip, as you put it. Veil is an answer to an answer. Threats need banning. all over the format, unless you are going to print quality answers, including prison cards, not the cards supporting them. Modern has a contingent of players who don't like to be told 'no', that includes people playing both threats and answers. Veil does nothing unless someone else does something. It wins zero games by itself. Make the threats weaker before looking at the support. Ban the threats and then look at Veil. That probably applies to labe and ouat too, and they are much more bannable.

Legacy has balance because answers and threats balance, thus few bans are needed. Modern does not and that needs to change.
Last edited by drmarkb 1 year ago, edited 2 times in total.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Modern”