[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
If veil does not cantrip it is unplayable, that is the issue we have the card without cantrip and almost zero decks played it. So how to get this type of card to see play? Tough one, really tough. It probably could cantrip but be narrower. If you take the cantrip off and leave the card as is it won't get action.
It would be a niche answer, not unplayable.

It's like people who say Blue is 'spoiled for choice' for Counters in Modern, so we don't need Counterspell.

Veil is unquestionably too good.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
edit: I'm confident astrolabe will not get banned. Banmania should stop.
Oh and this?
TheBoulderer wrote:
1 year ago
CONTROVERSIES:
OuaT (1) is by far the most played card in the format, it is a strict upgrade to an already much-discussed card (Stirrings), a 0cmc consistency tool in the starting 7, wildly outside what green should be capable of, wildly more powerful than it's blue counterparts. As a result, the format is warped around it.

Veil of Summer (6) would be a very good protection spell if it didn't cantrip. Compared to cards like Apostle's Blessing, Blossoming Defense and others in that strain, its application would be limited by color (to black, blue) but expanded by protection from most forms of interaction other than spot removal (targeted discard, targeted abilities, counterspells, protecting everything for a whole turn, etc). You'd securely be able to protect your combo from discard, shield a threat from removal or force an important play through countermagic and trade 1for1 in the process, which is everything you could ask for in a 1cmc instant. It would be an easily playable card.
But Veil cantrips. And that breaks it.

Arcum's Astrolabe (8) has arguably demolished MGT's most basic principle: color. 3-4-color decks running Blood Moon in side- or mainboard are not unusual these days. This goes in the face of the fact that cards like that were designed with their deck-building restrictions in mind. Remember Blue Moon running 7-9 Islands? Oh, how we laughed. Remember 5color piles being too greedy? Yea, sure.
Read this, there are absolutely ground level, fundamental, issues with cards like Astrolabe. It should not exist.
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FoodChainGoblins
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

I'm curious where those people that were calling out for a ban on Tron pieces are? Tron is now down to 2.64% on mtgoldfish.

Does anyone honestly still think that something from Tron should be banned? :hmm:
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Same with today's preliminary.
The 5-0 deck plays 4 Astrolabe, all 4-1 decks, but Prowess play 4 astro or once, and there is even one Bant Snow that runs 4 astrolabe + 3 once.
All 3-2 decks, but 3 run are on once.

If Wizards bans once upon a time and leaves astrolabe alone, astrolabe will take over the format and we will be in need of a astrolabe ban.

It's a little bit premature, but I agree that Wizards makes those kind of mistakes. I believe the will only ban Once and not astrolabe, and then it will be banned post PT.
While I agree the numbers are worrying I wanna point out a few things (and I am quoting you because you had the most recent post):

1. Banning multiple cards at once is (usually) bad. Unless multiple cards are messing the format heavily (see Hogaak and Looting), I'd rather do it one step at a time. Cut one problematic card, then reevaluate within the context of the new meta. I think this will lead to better decisions, IF it is communicated and acted upon. Say, put out a statement that after evaluation X card needs to go or is safe.

2. While Astrolabe is on the edge, it's not as egregious in pushing the power level of decks above the rest of the field as OUaT does. It also enables snow-strategies to exist, which arguably wouldn't exist without it and most (if not all) are midrange-y, fair strategies and makes 5C Niv playable.

Now, true, it %$#% on the concept of picking your colors and the pros/cons of them and makes greedy manabases too easy and safe. However, I think the trade-off for now (and for Modern specifically) is worth it. Although I do think it's on borrowed time.

3. Having one card that's underpinning the format, like Bolt has in the past, isn't necessarily bad. Especially when the play style it promotes is midrange that has interaction and can be interacted that people have been complaining that has fallen out of favor. Sure, it makes Blood Moon bad (specifically in Modern), but you wouldn't necessarily side it against them. Again, at the moment, I think the calculus is on the positive, but it could certainly change with more Snow support.

I see T3feri (and Veil) as a far bigger problem.

This is for Modern. In Legacy where Wasteland plays more of a role and mana denial as a strategy is more pronounced, I can see it go sooner.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Banning one card at a time is why we have been talking about what we ban next for years, literally.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

The word "usually" is right there in my post... And banning cards that don't really move the format in a clearly degenerate way or completely hose an aspect of magic is a recipe for disaster. Going after cards like OUaT, Veil and T3feri should be a priority, not Astrolabe that so far has helped a multitude of decks and made midrange relevant again.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Astrolabe that so far has helped a multitude of decks and made midrange relevant again.
You are not the first to claim that...but what midrange is actually relevant?

Snowblade is made possible by T3feri, more than Astrolabe, and that's assuming its actually competitive.
Are you calling Urza midrange?
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I'm curious where those people that were calling out for a ban on Tron pieces are? Tron is now down to 2.64% on mtgoldfish.

Does anyone honestly still think that something from Tron should be banned? :hmm:
Let's continue to remember that Goldfish meta numbers don't actually mean anything.

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

Mapccu wrote:
1 year ago
Not sure we're going to see better hate than ceremonious rejection for e-tron and an artifact heavy meta. We have the 1 cmc answer and no one is running it. The next step is making it modal at 1 cmc or making it cheaper. I don't think we want either. The questions are too strong right now.

Astrolabe/prismatic vista have set up main board worthy sidestepping to greedy mana bases. You've essentially ruined the cost of splashing for sideboard when you have a cantripping fixer that is this easy to play. I agree that it's not really okay to leave around.

If land hate was in a better place, we'd see more answers against titan. The fact that we have a land based deck in one hand and perfect mana in the other hand at the top tables should be proof enough that the format does not have sufficient answers for what is going on. Historically the answer was blood moon. Now blood moon is a dead card against non titan decks because of labe.
Astrolabe would have been fine if it didn't net a draw after it hits the battlefield or a costlier activation for mana. MH was a missed opportunity to add Back to Basics into modern.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
If veil does not cantrip it is unplayable, that is the issue we have the card without cantrip and almost zero decks played it. So how to get this type of card to see play? Tough one, really tough. It probably could cantrip but be narrower. If you take the cantrip off and leave the card as is it won't get action.
I see ways to do it, but not without color pie breaks. Rather than being a 2 for 1, it should be somewhere between a 1 for 1 and a 2 for 1. If it did something like let you draw, but then also let the opponent draw and discard, it would be slightly less of an advantage since it would upgrade the opponents hand to balance out the +1 card.

Alternatively, if staying within the color pie I think it should have only affected creatures rather than all spells/permanents. G for draw a card, creatures can't be targeted by blue/black, and can't be countered that turn would be a little more reasonable.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
If veil does not cantrip it is unplayable, that is the issue we have the card without cantrip and almost zero decks played it. So how to get this type of card to see play? Tough one, really tough. It probably could cantrip but be narrower. If you take the cantrip off and leave the card as is it won't get action.
It would be a niche answer, not unplayable.

It's like people who say Blue is 'spoiled for choice' for Counters in Modern, so we don't need Counterspell.

Veil is unquestionably too good.
Veil of Autumn got zero play, not niche play.
It is a huge problem to balance this type of card. One way to do it would be to misdirect the black targetted effects, so you can get 2 for 1 out of 'target player' or 'target critter' -only if there is another on board - but the 'target opponent' cards still work, and give it split second so that blue effectively cannot counter it, whilst removing cantripping.
In Legacy I don't have an issue with it in Modern I have an issue with it but I have a bigger issue with threats than answers dominating the format. Veil is small potatoes, bannable, sure, but not more bannable than Amulet, Urza, et al.

Labe is just wrong for Legacy and probably Modern, it should require basic snow lands to activate it and a mana to pop it to draw, not draw as you go.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
You are not the first to claim that...but what midrange is actually relevant?

Snowblade is made possible by T3feri, more than Astrolabe, and that's assuming its actually competitive.
Are you calling Urza midrange?
To turn it around, how is T3feri making Snowblade relevant more than Astrolabe (especially when control is so bad at the moment)?
And yes, certain builds of Urza are midrange, like the UGx Uroza ones,. Are they somehow irrelevant, but I wasn't referring to them though, all these Snowblade/Snow-Company decks plus 4C Saheeli and 5C Niv are ALL midrange decks made possible by Astrolabe.

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago

In Legacy I don't have an issue with it in Modern I have an issue with it but I have a bigger issue with threats than answers dominating the format. Veil is small potatoes, bannable, sure, but not more bannable than Amulet, Urza, et al.
That logic is faulty though IMO, because Veil of Summer isn't an answer to threats, it's a card that accompanies the very threats you say are pushed (and they are in some cases). A control deck would never run Veil. So Veil actually contributes to and increases the gap between threats and answers. Answers now don't just have to deal with pushed threats, but with pushed threats + pushed protection.

That means that with every new threat that is printed, reactive strategies have to evaluate it with Veil of Summer in mind.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
To turn it around, how is T3feri making Snowblade relevant more than Astrolabe (especially when control is so bad at the moment)?
And yes, certain builds of Urza are midrange, like the UGx Uroza ones,. Are they somehow irrelevant, but I wasn't referring to them though, all these Snowblade/Snow-Company decks plus 4C Saheeli and 5C Niv are ALL midrange decks made possible by Astrolabe.
I just dont think its a cantrip/fixing that matters here, but it certainly does help 4c and 5c decks, that are...not really things I would think of as healthy anyway. Unless its the Snow Snake that is making these decks function, or perhaps just a critical mass effect going on...I dont know.

Take away T3feri, and Snowblade falls down. Take away Astrolabe, and I think it still does its thing.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
To turn it around, how is T3feri making Snowblade relevant more than Astrolabe (especially when control is so bad at the moment)?
And yes, certain builds of Urza are midrange, like the UGx Uroza ones,. Are they somehow irrelevant, but I wasn't referring to them though, all these Snowblade/Snow-Company decks plus 4C Saheeli and 5C Niv are ALL midrange decks made possible by Astrolabe.
I just dont think its a cantrip/fixing that matters here, but it certainly does help 4c and 5c decks, that are...not really things I would think of as healthy anyway. Unless its the Snow Snake that is making these decks function, or perhaps just a critical mass effect going on...I dont know.

Take away T3feri, and Snowblade falls down. Take away Astrolabe, and I think it still does its thing.
Astrolabe is basically the only thing right now that enables a snow strategy. It's interesting because Wizards pushed snow cards but then seemingly went out of their way to make only a couple of constructed quality enablers to use all those snow cards... in a set designed specifically for Modern where most cards should have been built for constructed play.

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

Problem with astrolabe is that it was designed as mana filter with enabler qualities, a relevant card type being artifact and a draw when it enters the battlefield. In an environment that can't hate nonbasics like Legacy and not able to manipulate the stack with appropriate responses.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

This kind of %$#% is why you ban Astrolabe. You cannot tell me that a format can be 'balanced' when this kind of deck building is not only possible, but successful.

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
That has got to be the dumbest modern deck I have ever seen. A 4c control deck running 11 fetchlands, 9 single-color lands, and 3 Blood Moons in the sideboard. This is some HOT garbage right here.

Monday's gonna be interesting, as in: maybe I won't be playing modern after that.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

We finally can reasonably play 4C control decks and it's somehow bad for the format? 4 Wrenn's and 11 fetches also help with the mana bases, it's not A 3 colored control jamming 4 astrolabes and calling it a day. It expends many slots to make it work. Personally I'd add a couple of Klothys as well.

And I would definitely try to jam Blood Moon everywhere (and have done it) in a big mana environment if my matchup is horrendous.

Why is it wrong to try and use such a good fixing tool to prop up fair strategies? That's the reason to keep it.

Plus, one event, unknown opponents/matchups etc. etc.

To be honest I was (ab)using Astrolabe far more in my Paradoxical Urza deck than that pile (and I was playing 3 off colored cards with only islands and 1 shock).
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Because if thats remotely reasonable, you cannot conceivably balance any card in a vacuum because there is no ability to control for color/mana base constraints.

The number of 'sins' that deck displays is comical.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Yeah, and those other "sins are far more egregious than having 8 enablers for a 4C manabase, where 2 colors are splashed.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

The ability to actually function as 4C PLUS Blood Moon, is indefensible.

I mean you can want to play it, you can enjoy it, but cards have been banned for enabling this, and Standard formats have been panned over it.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

At this point, why not just unban Deathrite Shaman?

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Nah, DRS dies to bolt, why bother?
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
The ability to actually function as 4C PLUS Blood Moon, is indefensible.

I mean you can want to play it, you can enjoy it, but cards have been banned for enabling this, and Standard formats have been panned over it.
IF Blood Moon was the main function of the deck you'd have a point. The build metagames hard against Titan. It's even playing 2 Shadow of Doubt maindeck. You're spazzing out about one random 4C list that didn't throw 4 Astrolabes and call it a day. The list playes 11 fetchlands, 4 Wrenn and Six and 4 Uro. All of that enables the deck, not just Astrolabe.

Seriously, you're reaching to high heaven to find some list to complain about Astrolabe, when it's one %$#% random list,
Plus, I haven't seen you complaining about 5C Niv, but that list ticks you off?

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