[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Tzoulis
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

pierreb wrote:
1 year ago
I don't agree with this line of reasoning. Moxen merely increase the speed of decks. When the ability to play a given mox is asymmetrical, then it artificially enable a sub-set of strategies to have more deck just because they're empowered by the mox.
Potato, Potahto... Speed IS viability in every format. So yeah, decreasing their speed killed their viability. You're not really countering my point here, you're merely explaining why their viability got shot to the ground.

How do you propose to increase the viability of different artifact decks? Because, evidence shows that the non-Urza decks needed Mox Opal to be viable. They needed that speed to slog through all of the artifact hate all colors have.
pierreb wrote:
1 year ago
So, Wizards should print plenty of narrow moxen? I think it's the wrong way to go.
Never said they should print more, merely that the Mox Opal ban is stupid and killed any chances any non-Urza strategies had to exist, UNLESS they print something as busted as Urza or another Mox to help them.

Mox Opal was (and still is) fine. Simic Urza was oppressive because of Oko and it's synergies with Food tokens, not because of Opal. Its banning obliterated all non-Urza artifact decks. Even Urza decks have declined -massively- Dimir Urza is bad in an open field. For people that want diversity in the format and many viable strategies you sure don't care when a ban hurts any but your preferred strategies.

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
It's another Pioneer with the same trend. Play Astrolabe, Once, or you are doing something wrong.
I'm curious if people just dont see this yet as we have not had any coverage of Modern GP's lately?
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Simto
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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Just curious, if people in this thread (and other let's say "ban advocates") roughly get all the bans they want. What then? What will the next target be? We'll eventually only have basic lands left.

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Just curious, if people in this thread (and other let's say "ban advocates") roughly get all the bans they want. What then? What will the next target be? We'll eventually only have basic lands left.
Mmmm no?

Ban out the things which are warping, I mean are you going to deny what @gkourou posted is not warping?

I dont care if dredge exists, but Creeping Chill should not.
I dont care if Storm exists.
I dont care if Tron exists.

GDS, E Tron (%$#% that deck actually, but still) R Prowess, Urza, Breach, UW Control, Burn, Amulet, and Jund!

Let them all exist!

Lets not pretend however that flawed cards are not ruining Magic. If everyone is running OuaT and/or Astrolabe, there is probably a reason, and its probably because those cards are doing something which is subtly or not, too good.
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Simto
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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

I see it and I agree with some of the bans that are discussed a lot, but every time a new ban happens, people immediately jump to the next ban target and it just keeps going like that all the time. It's extremely %$#% tiresome.

And it doesn't help the fact that Wizards don't seem to give a too many %$#%.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

People keep going, because the format has been broken in various ways for most of the last several years, and ESPECIALLY now, there are multiple cards because despite people thinking 'nah maybe its ok' 2019 was an absolute, no exaggeration DUMPSTER FIRE for non-rotational formats.

There are cards that are busted, that dont even move the needle, because there are more cards that are even MORE busted. Its honestly a joke what Wizards has done to this game.

You could ban 6+ cards, easily, and make valid arguments around each one, but ONLY if you look at those cards from a perspective where 'balance' was closer to being achieved pre-Eldrazi.
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Tomatotime
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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

A lot of the ban talk in my opinion also revolves around the fact that Wotc, even pre-Pioneer neglected Modern quite a bit, so there is a huge back log of stuff that either needs to go, or should have probably be banned long ago. Some amount of it is simply taking this into consideration and throwing *explitive* at the wall just to see if anything sticks. Make no mistake, there are many broken cards in Modern, and the broken cards themselves exist within a hierarchy, this means that even if you get rid of the blatant stuff like Hogaak, veterans of the format know all to well that more bans are needed because when you have played the format for so many years on end, you simply learn to predict what is going to happen with relative accuracy. Not that it takes THAT much skill to predict meta in Modern mind you, it all devolves into linear goldfish piles who simply try to proactively goldfish faster then each other with interactive decks usually sitting on the sidelines most of the time.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I mean honestly...has anyone looked at the E-Tron list with OuaT?

It has 1 forest. It's not looking to cast a cantrip, its looking for free consistency. Its so %$#% STUPID, that people do not understand what is fundamentally wrong with these cards.

That is, if you actually like Magic, and have liked Magic for longer than the last year or 2.
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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

I think that OuaT and astrolab are probably the first 2 cards that need to go. I've been thinking latley that I'd like to see something from the amulet deck go. Probaby not titan itself as I don't think the archetype as a whole needs to go but its gotten so obnoxious lately. They probably won't ban dryad as it's from the newest set but I think it's actually just the problem.Is there any merit to banning amulet or should they ban something else?

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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

I think an Amulet ban is pretty uncontroversial, ultimately by banning Amulet you are simply removing a T3 goldfish path for one of the titan variants, after which the people who play that deck can simply buy a playset of Scapeshifts and move from Amulet Titan into Titan Shift pretty smoothly imo, it is probably an improvement for the format on the whole.

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Post by Mestremuten » 1 year ago

OuAT has to go. Astrolabe NOT. Stop crying if you cannot play blood moon. It is only played in urza (going to decrease in numbers if there are unbans).

Solution for the format:
Unban twin, drs and looting. If you dont see it is your problem.

Have a nice day

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drmarkb
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Anyone who thinks DRS is the solution to anything has a problem.
Anyone who thinks Looting should be unbanned is trolling.

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Post by Mestremuten » 1 year ago

Go to play pioneer.

;)

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Post by DarthDrac » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Anyone who thinks Looting should be unbanned is trolling.
Sorry, but I'd take Izzet Phoenix and Hollow one over the current meta... Not trolling in the least, I mean I'm fine with Preordain being unbanned and Twin too, but Looting made so many fun decks viable...

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Mestremuten wrote:
1 year ago
Go to play pioneer.

;)
Prefer Legacy myself. Where DRS is also correctly banned.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

DarthDrac wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Anyone who thinks Looting should be unbanned is trolling.
Sorry, but I'd take Izzet Phoenix and Hollow one over the current meta... Not trolling in the least, I mean I'm fine with Preordain being unbanned and Twin too, but Looting made so many fun decks viable...
Phoenix was fine up to a point, hollow one should never really be the top deck, but never really was after the meta adjusted. Dredge, however, is not, and looting will always be breaking something.

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Post by Mestremuten » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
DarthDrac wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Anyone who thinks Looting should be unbanned is trolling.
Sorry, but I'd take Izzet Phoenix and Hollow one over the current meta... Not trolling in the least, I mean I'm fine with Preordain being unbanned and Twin too, but Looting made so many fun decks viable...
Phoenix was fine up to a point, hollow one should never really be the top deck, but never really was after the meta adjusted. Dredge, however, is not, and looting will always be breaking something.
Except if you have drs.

Or, use MH to print a 1 drop creature to hate gy maindeckable in jundesque decks.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
I see it and I agree with some of the bans that are discussed a lot, but every time a new ban happens, people immediately jump to the next ban target and it just keeps going like that all the time. It's extremely %$#% tiresome.
it's at least some discussion that adds to forum activity.

I'm sitting here with my snow deck, it's not an urza deck, just plain bant snow. Hoping nothing from it get banned.

edit: I'm confident astrolabe will not get banned. Banmania should stop.
Last edited by The Fluff 1 year ago, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

It would be a huge mistake if OUAT got banned and Astrolabe not. Only 2 type of decks and killing of 1 and leaving the other is exactly the kind of mistake Wizards has made over and over again so its exactly what will happen.

Today I realized Wizard tested Standard with Oko, Veil, Goose, Uro, T3feri, OUAT, Growth Spiral, Krasis and Nissa and thought it was okay. I fear 2020 isn't going to be any better because the upcoming sets are already developed and printed and the same time.

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

To bring back the discussion to some facts: According to mtggoldfish, most played cards are:

1) OuaT (34% of decks, 3.7 copies)
2) Lightning Bolt (31%, 3,7 copies)
3) Thoughtseize (28%, 2,9 copies)
4) Path to Exile (25%, 3,3 copies)
5) Fatal Push (25%, 3.0 copies)
6) Veil of Summer (31%, 2,3 copies)
7) Ashiok, Dream Render (36%, 1,9 copies)
8) Arcum's Astrolabe (17%, 3,9 copies)
9) Inquisitiion of Kozilek (21%, 3.0 copies)
10) Dismember (33%, 1,9 copies).

I know that everybody here knows these stats, but just a quick opinion piece on this:

PILLARS OF THE FORMAT:
Lightning Bolt (2), Thoughtseize (3), Path to Exile (4), Fatal Push (5), and Inquisition of Kozilek (8) are cards that are pillars of color identities. Each of them represents what the color is about in a powerful, efficient, yet balanced way. Each is efficient and has some conditions/ drawbacks attatched to deliver its effect. Path donates a land, Thoughtseize loses life, others are restricted by cmc etc.

ROLE PLAYERS:
Ashiok (8) is pushed into this list singlehandedly by the best archetype, Amulet Titan. If this specific archetype wasn't at the top, Ahsiok would be a playable sideboard choice, but nowhere near the most played PW in the format. It's presence here is a symptom.

Dismember (10) is here by virtue of colorless decks needing access to a card type they inherently shouldn't have access to (efficient removal) and Death's Shadow variants potentially profiting off its cost. it's cost in the colorless decks (1cmc+4 life) and DS decks (4 life is a lot and it's often hard to cast otherwise) is arguably enough to balance it's raw power.

CONTROVERSIES:
OuaT (1) is by far the most played card in the format, it is a strict upgrade to an already much-discussed card (Stirrings), a 0cmc consistency tool in the starting 7, wildly outside what green should be capable of, wildly more powerful than it's blue counterparts. As a result, the format is warped around it.

Veil of Summer (6) would be a very good protection spell if it didn't cantrip. Compared to cards like Apostle's Blessing, Blossoming Defense and others in that strain, its application would be limited by color (to black, blue) but expanded by protection from most forms of interaction other than spot removal (targeted discard, targeted abilities, counterspells, protecting everything for a whole turn, etc). You'd securely be able to protect your combo from discard, shield a threat from removal or force an important play through countermagic and trade 1for1 in the process, which is everything you could ask for in a 1cmc instant. It would be an easily playable card.
But Veil cantrips. And that breaks it.

Arcum's Astrolabe (8) has arguably demolished MGT's most basic principle: color. 3-4-color decks running Blood Moon in side- or mainboard are not unusual these days. This goes in the face of the fact that cards like that were designed with their deck-building restrictions in mind. Remember Blue Moon running 7-9 Islands? Oh, how we laughed. Remember 5color piles being too greedy? Yea, sure.


I think those 3 cards being banned would increase the quality of modern in a huge way. I can genuinely see a healthy, diverse, fun format beyond those 3 cards.

I'm sure I've in part only reiterated things that have already been said in this thread ten-fold, but IMO tying it in with the most-played cards-stats gives the matter some much-needed clarity that this discussion sometimes lacks.

I'll reiterate an earlier point that really resonated with me: When Tarmogoyf and Bolt where the format's most-played cards, (almost) nobody even considered that they might be ban-worthy. They were better than their alternatives, but within a reasonable margin. The same cannot be said for OuaT, Veil or Astrolabe. Those cards are leaps and bounds better than any alternative.

There'll be a B&R announcement come Monday, right?

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

If veil does not cantrip it is unplayable, that is the issue we have the card without cantrip and almost zero decks played it. So how to get this type of card to see play? Tough one, really tough. It probably could cantrip but be narrower. If you take the cantrip off and leave the card as is it won't get action.

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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
If veil does not cantrip it is unplayable, that is the issue we have the card without cantrip and almost zero decks played it. So how to get this type of card to see play? Tough one, really tough. It probably could cantrip but be narrower. If you take the cantrip off and leave the card as is it won't get action.
That's a fair point, protection spells rarely see play outside of Infect. But then it should have been just "you and permanents you control", or just spells, or the protection should have been only from black OR from blue.

As it is, it's too good to stay legal.

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Post by tempoEDH » 1 year ago

Remind me again, when is the next B&R announcement?
Current Decks:
Alesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
Karlov of the Ghost Council EDH
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant EDH
Edgar Markov EDH
Emmara, Soul of the Accord EDH
Yarok, the Desecrated EDH
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
Kalamax (No infinites) EDH
Ghalta EDH
Current Projects:
Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa/Silas Renn, Seeker Adept EDH
Neheb, the Eternal EDH

TheBoulderer
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Post by TheBoulderer » 1 year ago

tempoEDH wrote:
1 year ago
Remind me again, when is the next B&R announcement?
next monday, March 9. It's not specified for which format, so nobody knows if something will change in modern... but thats when it is :)

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Post by Mapccu » 1 year ago

Not sure we're going to see better hate than ceremonious rejection for e-tron and an artifact heavy meta. We have the 1 cmc answer and no one is running it. The next step is making it modal at 1 cmc or making it cheaper. I don't think we want either. The questions are too strong right now.

Astrolabe/prismatic vista have set up main board worthy sidestepping to greedy mana bases. You've essentially ruined the cost of splashing for sideboard when you have a cantripping fixer that is this easy to play. I agree that it's not really okay to leave around.

If land hate was in a better place, we'd see more answers against titan. The fact that we have a land based deck in one hand and perfect mana in the other hand at the top tables should be proof enough that the format does not have sufficient answers for what is going on. Historically the answer was blood moon. Now blood moon is a dead card against non titan decks because of labe.

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