[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

User avatar
robertleva
Posts: 496
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Big mana decks are a natural check to good stuff Astrolabe decks and Jund, both of which could easily become the dominant forces in the format if they don't have a natural predator. That's why banning major big mana pillars would be risky and likely disastrous. A world without Tron and Titan decks would see Astrolabe and Jund totally take over
This argument really summarizes Modern. For some reason, all of the formats are formats where people must have fun, must be interactive, and we must protect the fairer strategies. For example, in Pioneer Wizards bans cards like Veil of Summer & Field of the Dead, because
green-based aggro and ramp decks still remain overrepresented in the competitive metagame at the expense of midrange and control. Therefore, we are banning Veil of Summer to better allow for natural metagame forces to provide counterpressure against these strategies. We expect this to increase incentive to play reactive strategies that will help keep the format in balance over the long term
For some reason, in Modern, there are people that want to do the opposite. Protect Tron and Valakut decks, because for some shady reason midrange decks, meaning decks that are fair and interactive and also struggle since day 1 in modern, would potentially be too good.
And the funny thing is that, that's what's been happening. Big mana decks are being protected in expense of more fair decks. Meaning the opposite of what should be the case.

1) Midrange would not be too good with no dominant big mana.
2) Those kind of decks are what we want to be see in the format.

I hope wizards keeps making Pioneer more interactive and fun(for example ban Breach and DTT or something), as they are already doing.

Modern is a lost cause, you are only going to like it if you play linear, unfair decks.

PS: Sorry, @ktkenshinx, do not mean this post as an attack, rather than it seems totally buzzling to me.
This si so true, but honestly that type of meta is what they are pushing in Pioneer. I guess modern's identity is and always has been big mana and graveyard format. It's a shame.
Robert Leva
Creator of Modern's 8Rack Deck
Image

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
This si so true, but honestly that type of meta is what they are pushing in Pioneer. I guess modern's identity is and always has been big mana and graveyard format. It's a shame.
Not at its best. We used to be BGx vs URx. :)
UR Control UR

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1110
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote: Modern is a lost cause, you are only going to like it if you play linear, unfair decks.
That goes back to what many have been saying all along then: if you're going to embrace the degenerate, unfair decks, then unban lots of old toys and see how they hold up. Odds are there's a lot more Jaces and Stoneforges and Bitterblossoms than there are Valakuts and GGTs. If it's just a lost cause, then there is literally no downside to flooding multiple unbans, letting people test them out, and then reevaluating like they did with Pioneer. It's not like it could be any worse than breaking the format to pieces every few sets with busted mythics, broken planeswalkers, and consistently printing things that abuse the graveyard.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I'm not sure its a lost cause. I feel like things are potentially shaking out at this point. There are still a few cards that need to go, but I think at this point we should be understanding that the format is, what it is.
UR Control UR

User avatar
AvalonAurora
Posts: 162
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: they / them

Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote: After having heard the latest Twitch magic tv live, where they said that "combos create metagame imbalance, and especially combos that go from empty board into a clean win" (Ian Duke said that), I know he was referring to decks like Twin.
The question was about two card combos. People are pushing not to unban Twin in Twitter also.

It's not coming back, you two, unfortunately. I know you are referring to Twin.
I'd refine that to say that it's about some kinds of two-cards combos including twin, but also potentially others, where the lower cmc initial piece is instant speed, or where you only need two cards on an empty board of a combined cmc that the deck can easily play turn 4 or earlier (such as 2 instant/sorcery cards that are both about 2 cmc but must be played the same turn).

Basically, two card combos where the opponent doesn't have a clear turn to interact with a non-land permanent at sorcery speed, before something like turn 5 (with you having to take into account ramp potential of the decks they fit in, rather than just cmc).

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
It's not coming back, you two, unfortunately. I know you are referring to Twin.
Oh I am well aware. It was the Copy Cat ban in Pioneer that sealed the deal.

This however does not change that Modern would be immeasurably improved if a deck like it existed within the competitive ranks. :D
UR Control UR

Spsiegel1987
Posts: 38
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Spsiegel1987 » 1 year ago

So, I played at the SCG classic yesterday, and was doing well until I went up the ladder and got completely obliterated by Amulet Titan and Titanshift. SCG was shockingly dominated by Prowess burn and Titan. If you honestly dedicated 75 percent of your sideboard to them you'd have been golden.

Titanshift felt woefully broken. It felt more demoralizing than Urza but less so than Hoogak. Kinda an inbetween.

Honestly, it was a combination of OUAT, Veil, Dryad, Valakut (in Amulet), and Field of the Dead. I was consistently basically loosing by turn 3 on 3 of 4 games, I believe the entire cast surrounding Titan has honestly become an issue, the deck will absolutely require 2 bannings or Titan itself.

Honestly, modern has me feeling really foolish for playing Jund. I keep jamming this deck because it's a fun and safe investment, but playing fair is such an idiotic idea in this format. Honestly, people like Foodchain Goblins have the right idea, play combo decks in modern (maybe even across formats).

If I had disposable income to just buy into the broken combo decks, I'd be tempted. Playing fair is for suckers.

Jund may be sitting pretty on mtggoldfish but I think the deck is absolutely awfully placed right now. I'd rather play Tron ANY day over Titan decks.

Modern's only safety valve is thoughtseize. Pact of Negation is a step towards the right direction.

Honestly, I'm kinda at the point that something like Deathrite would need to be unbanned to compete with how unfair this format is. Yes, it would grossly homogenize midrange decks but honestly...playing midrange feels idiotic to play outside of an FNM in modern. WOTC has REALLY gone out of their way to protect from lands being interacted with. I see absolutely no way to meaningfully interact with ramp decks in modern (but Tron doesn't feel as atrocious as it once did).

It's very despairing. I think I have to play Shadow if I want to play a jund style deck, playing a 4 mana 3/2 looks incredibly stupid when decks are winning by turn 4.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Spsiegel1987 wrote:
1 year ago
Honestly, modern has me feeling really foolish for playing Jund.
Bro, I found the problem. :D
UR Control UR

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1110
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Modern is a format of big broken things that abuse niche aspects of the game that are difficult to interact with, or killing opponents with brutal speed and efficiency. Doing anything else is setting yourself up for disappointment.

Spsiegel1987
Posts: 38
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Spsiegel1987 » 1 year ago

Oh, trust me, I know.

SCG Classic really made this crystal clear to me. I was doing well and then both versions of the combo deck said, "Oh, that's cute, you're playing modern wrong".

We don't have legacy answers for such brutal and efficient threats/combos. Michael Rapport was definitely right when he said Jund players should play Shadow variants if you want to play Jund/Delver in this format.

WOTC needs to man up and print interactive and efficient answers. And jesus, stop pushing green so hard. OUAT, Veil, Oko.

We need sinkhole type answers, Force of Will. I have no clue if Hymn would snap this format in half so I won't request that.

But really and truly, with the exception of being in this, "modern feels so nice and diverse!" for the month, it usually becomes a dumpster fire once something is solved.

I'm also frustrated that WOTC bans Bridge and says, "this card was broken and nothing good can come of it in the future" And then they print Breach. And Oracle (for Pioneer).

I thought Stoddard was awful as the design lead but god...2019 across every format hurt the product badly.

Just print good answers and stop printing idiotic stuff that begs to snap formats in half.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Hymn would be fine, but what is really needed, is straight up land destruction. Not land replacement. Not 'land but this type now. Modern needs straight up 'boom, thats gone', and it needs it effeciently.

Ramp, is a core issue of Modern, and oddly, Pioneer.
UR Control UR

iTaLenTZ
Posts: 217
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Rishadan Port would be a great addition to Modern. But really, start with banning Veil and go from there. If OUAT needs to go as well so be it.
Last edited by iTaLenTZ 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I dont know that it would matter. You want to really impact Tron, ETron, and Titan decks? Really?

Then we need a printed for Modern (MH2) Wasteland. It is simply not suffient to try and hate on these decks, and what they do to the format from a meta perspective will always be warping.

They go over both Midrange, and Control.
They therefore provide incentive to Aggro, and Combo.

This is why a Tempo/Combo deck that main's removal was critical to format health. I dont care that Twin will never come back. The closest thing to it, would be if something like Turns, or this Inverter deck perhaps, actually became Modern Competitive.

It would benefit the format to have such a thing.
UR Control UR

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 819
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Spsiegel1987 wrote: Honestly, modern has me feeling really foolish for playing Jund. I keep jamming this deck because it's a fun and safe investment, but playing fair is such an idiotic idea in this format. Honestly, people like Foodchain Goblins have the right idea, play combo decks in modern (maybe even across formats).
I play Combo because it's what I like to play, so when it's Tier 1 or 2, I am down to play it. At non Comp REL, I will go down even more Tiers if I enjoy playing it. Plus, I am good at playing Combo. I play Combo better than I play Burn because I've had so many more reps with it.

But around 8 years ago, I was nothing but a Control player. I did play Tempo occasionally and played Combo for fun. But I just hated playing Aggro or Midrange. I like to avoid creatures as much as I can. I don't like creatures as much as spells. When I started playing in Revised, the game was mostly about spells. Only noobs played creatures, lol.

But when Control was finally not catered to, I hated struggling to find wins to players who I'd outplay by miles. So, I decided to force myself to learn how to play other archetypes. Nowadays, it's funny because I haven't played Control much in the last 8 years, so I actually SUCK at it. Before as a Control player, my favorite matchup was the mirror because I knew very few people who would outplay me - usually Pro Tour players.

But on another note, Modern is much better since Oko, Thief of Crowns was banned. Yes, I believe Modern should not have started with a preconceived ban list based on other past formats. But it's too late for all that. Wizards could still make the impactful unbans, as well as more crucial reprints in MH2. It won't likely change all that much, but at least there would be more fun cards to play in Modern. Then they should also consider how some cards like Teferi, Time Raveler, Once Upon a Time, and Veil of Summer impact Modern. If it is not in a good way, then they should be %$#%.

*FWIW, I played Sultai Delirium in Pioneer in 3 tournaments at the GP Phoenix this weekend. Yes, the deck that Brad Nelson said was "terrible" at the Pro Tour. I did not practice at all and I'm a bit mad at myself for that. This was my records -
PTQ#1 Friday - 4-2, lost to my friend and roommate at the BNB on UW Control and on turn 5 of turns to a top deck from Inverter.
GP - 5-3, lost my win and in to Lotus Breach when I drew lands for draw steps 1-5, then Satyr Wayfinder, binning triple Thoughtseize and Leyline of the Void.
PTQ#2 Sunday - 3-0-3, Yes, I had 3 draws and 1 went to time as well, where my opponent did concede because he was dead next turn. I played all the UW Control and Sultai Deliriums in this tournament, but smashed a Mono Red player who Day 2ed the Pro Tour.

So, this is the reason why I don't play Midrange. My record was barely over 50%. I made tons, yes TONS of misplays, many of which I still haven't figured out. I got by on the power of Battlecruiser cards like Emrakul, the Promised End in my deck. I'm absolutely positive that I should have been at least 5-1 on Friday, 8-1 at the GP, and made the top 8 of the 2nd PTQ if I had played perfectly. But that's what no play testing for a deck in an archetype that I suck at will do to you. Some people may say that these records are okay. I know I didn't play well all the time. But I will never let someone let me believe that mediocrity is okay because I know I'm better than that. (when I play test, try hard, and analyze matchups on paper more than just a SB sheet)
Last edited by FoodChainGoblins 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Spsiegel1987 wrote:
1 year ago
I'm also frustrated that WOTC bans Bridge and says, "this card was broken and nothing good can come of it in the future" And then they print Breach. And Oracle (for Pioneer).
Oh, and while Breach is begging to be broken, card's like Oracle should get a shot at existing. If anything ban the stupid Eldrazi.
UR Control UR

ThatStoryTeller
Posts: 52
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

I actually think inverter could be a decent deck in modern (granted, both spells work at sorcery speed for 6 mana, but its over the course of a few turns, and force of negation exists), albeit with a few hoops to jump through like the lack of dig through time, but the format has access to the escape instants in blue and black that facilitate similar results, as well as thought scour and gurmag angler. It would take a lot of sculpting and refining to make a reality, but its a solid idea here. Patrick Chapin thinks pioneer is turning into a lesser modern and needs more bans on this deck in particular, but Id def say optimize it to be tested against the top decks.

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 819
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
Spsiegel1987 wrote:
1 year ago
I'm also frustrated that WOTC bans Bridge and says, "this card was broken and nothing good can come of it in the future" And then they print Breach. And Oracle (for Pioneer).
Oh, and while Breach is begging to be broken, card's like Oracle should get a shot at existing. If anything ban the stupid Eldrazi.
You're talking about Pioneer. I have some perspective here, as I just got back from the GP Phoenix. Inverter of Truths may get banned, but WotC may just ban the more powerful card that has been on borrowed time since Pioneer began - Dig Through Time. Underworld Breach will certainly see a ban in Legacy. I'm pretty sure it should also see a ban in Pioneer and Lotus Field Combo will still be 75% as good as it is now.

There is another deck that I believe people are sleeping on - UG Turbo Emrakul. A local shop had players play this at the Player's Tour and the GPs and their records were something like a 73% win rate overall. I kind of want to play the deck myself, but I'd have to buy 2 more Emrakul, the Promised End and I think something could get banned once people get over bans on Breach and Inverter. Vendors started out buying Inverter at $9 on Thursday and they only paid $4 by the very end. I barely got more than I paid for mine. :\
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Dig will die, I'm sure. Its borrowed time. People are saying it may be the best draw spell ever printed.

I just like Oracle, a lot. Would be a shame for a cool card like that to get banned, not everyone wants to turn sideways to win.
UR Control UR

Spsiegel1987
Posts: 38
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Spsiegel1987 » 1 year ago

Andrea Meanguchi wrote an article months ago about why he doesn't like midrange. He feels like it's the worst of both worlds. Aren't delver decks in legacy kinda as long to midrange that's as competitive as you can be? I know he loves himself delver decks.


Foodchain, I bought into mono black because it seemed like an easy transition to be a Jund player to that. I looked into Sultai Delirium---it's so expensive though, even with already owning some of the money pieces.

Is this a legit deck or is it just a flavor of the month thing? Reid Duke wrote that he was dunked on my combo. If that's the case I'd be afraid of touching a deck with no game against combo and would rather stick with mono B.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I dislike deeply when labels with meaning are applied to other decks. Twin, is Twin. Midrange is Midrange.

Delver, is a very specific breed of deck to me. It's not Midrange, to me.

Midrange will never be a slam dunk choice in Modern again, until Ramp is under control.
UR Control UR

Spsiegel1987
Posts: 38
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Spsiegel1987 » 1 year ago

I wonder if outside of standard midrange is ever really a slam dunk.

I am not begging for ramp to be gone, just to clarify.

I just deeply dislike how difficult it is to interact with cards in this format minus brutal efficient kill spells.

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 819
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Spsiegel1987 wrote: Andrea Meanguchi wrote an article months ago about why he doesn't like midrange. He feels like it's the worst of both worlds. Aren't delver decks in legacy kinda as long to midrange that's as competitive as you can be? I know he loves himself delver decks.


Foodchain, I bought into mono black because it seemed like an easy transition to be a Jund player to that. I looked into Sultai Delirium---it's so expensive though, even with already owning some of the money pieces.

Is this a legit deck or is it just a flavor of the month thing? Reid Duke wrote that he was dunked on my combo. If that's the case I'd be afraid of touching a deck with no game against combo and would rather stick with mono B.
Honestly it's not really safe to buy anything in Pioneer in my opinion. But then I really, really hate Pioneer. I think Sultai Delirium is already bad. It was the flavor of the week, and is indeed great vs. Aggro. The problem? Barely anybody is playing Aggro anymore - it's all Lotus Breach (which I felt good about, but others have told me its unfavored), UW Control, and Inverter. I even heard that Sultai stomps Niv Mizzet, but now others have told me it's not true. I feel like Mono Black Aggro and Red Aggro are its best matchups.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Spsiegel1987 wrote: I wonder if outside of standard midrange is ever really a slam dunk.

I am not begging for ramp to be gone, just to clarify.

I just deeply dislike how difficult it is to interact with cards in this format minus brutal efficient kill spells.
No, ramp needs to have its place. I mean I am a systems guy in my day job. I look at how things need to interact, and the impacts of various other influences.

Ramp needs to exist. If however its too good, too fast, and/or too hard to interact with, it pushes out both Midrange who should be able to pick at it, and Control.

When that happens, your option is to go under, and that drives a specific breed of meta.

We desperately need land destruction, printed into Modern (because we all know it wont go in Standard) and we probably need it in Pioneer.

I've moved away from Pioneer back to Modern specifically because of some sweet cards (Oracle, Omen, and Mystic Sanctuary) and the fact I like the familiarity of Modern, vs the lack of meaningful answers in Pioneer.
UR Control UR

Spsiegel1987
Posts: 38
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Spsiegel1987 » 1 year ago

I think I'll stick with mono black aggro since nothing is truly safe in that format; plus mono black doesn't look like it'll be bad in that format anytime soon.

I'm gonna play Shadow tonight; I'm off of Jund for a while until major changes/bans occur.

User avatar
Ym1r
Posts: 153
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

Welp... no more data for us...

Counter, draw a card.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Modern”