[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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cfusionpm
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Mapccu wrote:
1 year ago
IMHO the most direct comparison for heliod/ballista is twin because it has a specific reaction type/window. Twin could tax mana on t3 and you couldn't bolt the exarch. Heliod and multiple ballista activations can cause similar struggles if available.
Twin was much more egregious. The strongest scenario, when Twin was on the play and had it naturally on T4 (yes, they didn't always have this or want to go for it)
Happened about 13% of the time, and was a bad idea most of the time it did happen.
Twin spending 10 mana in 4 turns. The opponent would only have a maximum of 6 mana at that point, and 5 if Exarch locked them out. And with the need to represent removal, any non white removal at the time cost 2.
Um, boo hoo? Float mana and kill the Exarch while Twin is tapped out. In today's meta, if they have Force of Negation, AND another blue card, AND a fourth land, AND second red source, AND Twin itself for a turn 4 kill, well, welcome to Modern and decks killing you fast with good draws.
Meaning the opponent could only spend a maximum of 4 mana over 4 turns to develop their plan, and more likely 3 mana over 4 turns, while Twin spent 10.
Is there some underlying Tron criticism here? :hmm: :laugh:

Either way, slowing down opponents in order to promote (or bluff!) interaction was one of the best things it did for the format.
The mana costs, and non flash nature of both halves of the Heliod/Ballista combo, create far easier to identify windows for interaction, and short of the opponent having 4 mana open when Ballista comes down (and Ballista having at least 3 counters), there's going to be an easy to disrupt window, unless there's also other cards to protect.
Under ideal conditions, Heliod is considerably more difficult to interact with. Heliod is indestructible and Ballista can combo in response to removal.
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Heliod/Balista can be answered by Pithing Needle/Sorcerous Spyglass/Revoker that can also answer other problematic combos/cards as well, plus every deck can play them. I've been saying for months that these cards are underplayed, doubly so in Pioneer.
So can Copy Cat, or Twin though no?
I mean, yeah, it's implied in what I said and I even referenced CopyCat in the 2nd paragraph of my post.
But Twin can't because....? Just trying to understand the consistency of stances people hold.

I'm really getting exhausted with this double standard that Twin is somehow MORE degenerate and MORE difficult to interact with than multiple things that exist today. Literally the only thing you need to interact with it is regular old creature removal. But it's also susceptible to discard and counterspells in addition to numerous targeted and broad hate.

This blind hate over a deck, being inflated by myths, legends, and exaggerations is why we cannot have honest conversations about it. And honestly should be banned from discussion.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Exarch while Twin is tapped out. In today's meta, if they have Force of Negation, AND another blue card, AND a fourth land, AND second red source
3 of those are trivial and really putting them as "if" to down play the effectiveness of Twin is disingenuous.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
But Twin can't because....? Just trying to understand the consistency of stances people hold.

I'm really getting exhausted with this double standard that Twin is somehow MORE degenerate and MORE difficult to interact with than multiple things that exist today. Literally the only thing you need to interact with it is regular old creature removal. But it's also susceptible to discard and counterspells in addition to numerous targeted and broad hate.

This blind hate over a deck, being inflated by myths, legends, and exaggerations is why we cannot have honest conversations about it. And honestly should be banned from discussion.
What are you on about? I just said that all of those decks are easy to interact with, especially in Modern, and with cards that are useful against plenty of decks.

Seriously, wtf.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Exarch while Twin is tapped out. In today's meta, if they have Force of Negation, AND another blue card, AND a fourth land, AND second red source
3 of those are trivial and really putting them as "if" to down play the effectiveness of Twin is disingenuous.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
But Twin can't because....? Just trying to understand the consistency of stances people hold.

I'm really getting exhausted with this double standard that Twin is somehow MORE degenerate and MORE difficult to interact with than multiple things that exist today. Literally the only thing you need to interact with it is regular old creature removal. But it's also susceptible to discard and counterspells in addition to numerous targeted and broad hate.

This blind hate over a deck, being inflated by myths, legends, and exaggerations is why we cannot have honest conversations about it. And honestly should be banned from discussion.
What are you on about? I just said that all of those decks are easy to interact with, especially in Modern, and with cards that are useful against plenty of decks.

Seriously, wtf.
Was mostly responding to the other poster, and then put general thoughts at the end. But the madness and obsessive hatred for the deck, as well as the misrepresentations of both history and reality are getting old, no matter where it comes from.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

If some of the most enfranchised Modern players in the community continue to get it wrong, its probably time to just let it go man. You know as well as I do that the players on Twitter speak from a place of ignorance, we have been left behind and Twin will never be spoken of in an understanding, nuanced way.
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
My money is on Heliod Pioneer ban, btw. Because the combo is not instant speed I think it will survive modern. If both pieces had flash it would be different...
Why does instant speed matter? Ad Nauseum is an instant speed 2 card combo. Storm has several elements that can go off at instant speed to secure a win. How is the that a relevant factor?
Yes, Idsurge has it. In modern tap out t3 and drop a dude should never lead to death on the opponent's t3 in the eyes of wotc. They want creatures to be garbage at one cc bar dorks, and then have them populate the 2 and 3cc slots. That is incompatible with a potential tap out t3 to their t4 combo that can be executed at instant speed if the opponent taps out to lay a mirran crusader, say. If the opponent is tapping out t3 and losing they look harshly on it. Ad nauseam only survived by virtue of the rituals getting the hammer, but by and large it went off t5, often much, much later, surviving via its fig effects and angel's grace. Storm's main win con was a sorcery, storm did not win at instant speed in one turn. It might have cast eot gifts and then went off next turn, but eot gifts did not mean a win next.
As the next post says by food chain goblins, how it feels, or I guess how some feel about the instant aspect is important to wotc.

Note these are my observations on the trends, not my desires or opinions on the merit of the policy.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Heliod/Balista can be answered by Pithing Needle/Sorcerous Spyglass/Revoker that can also answer other problematic combos/cards as well, plus every deck can play them. I've been saying for months that these cards are underplayed, doubly so in Pioneer.

I don't think Heliod/Balista will be remotely close to oppressive in Modern or even Pioneer. You don't even need a revolted Push to kill Balista in comparison to CopyCat.
Problem is that in pioneer if you have a needle effect there are plenty of decks they are dead against. Against mono red burn or rw burn you can't have too many such cards. This is why I have been wanting needles that can be sacrificed to draw a card for a couple of mana. I agree these effects are underplayed, but they tend to end up in the board and not as 4 of to boot. Main deck spyglass or needles is not where wotc want us to be. Personally I would love to have a deck full of such effects and other taxes. In fact my last Pioneer event I won with critterless enchantment control, which did nothing but tax, wipe etc. I just guess wotc don't want those decks about though and would rather van cards than print universally included cantrip able needles.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
My money is on Heliod Pioneer ban, btw. Because the combo is not instant speed I think it will survive modern. If both pieces had flash it would be different...
Why does instant speed matter? Ad Nauseum is an instant speed 2 card combo. Storm has several elements that can go off at instant speed to secure a win. How is the that a relevant factor?
Yes, Idsurge has it. In modern tap out t3 and drop a dude should never lead to death on the opponent's t3 in the eyes of wotc. They want creatures to be garbage at one cc bar dorks, and then have them populate the 2 and 3cc slots. That is incompatible with a potential tap out t3 to their t4 combo that can be executed at instant speed if the opponent taps out to lay a mirran crusader, say. If the opponent is tapping out t3 and losing they look harshly on it. Ad nauseam only survived by virtue of the rituals getting the hammer, but by and large it went off t5, often much, much later, surviving via its fig effects and angel's grace. Storm's main win con was a sorcery, storm did not win at instant speed in one turn. It might have cast eot gifts and then went off next turn, but eot gifts did not mean a win next.
As the next post says by food chain goblins, how it feels, or I guess how some feel about the instant aspect is important to wotc.

Note these are my observations on the trends, not my desires or opinions on the merit of the policy.
When are people going to get it through their heads that Twin is not an instant speed combo? A creature has to resolve and live, a sorcery speed enchantment has to resolve and not be destroyed, and there needs to be a successful attack step in combat. And as I mentioned before, if speed is a problem in Modern, then slowing down opponents in order to promote (or bluff!) interaction was one of the best things it did for the format.

While I understand that those are your observations, it doesn't make them any less stupid, arbitrary, and completely dismissive of the absolute nuttery that happens in other Modern today. Including "dying out of nowhere" when tapping out against the likes of Titan or Storm (as early as Turn 3).

So while that stance could have been true four years ago, it is laughably weak today. It's just a showcase of grasping at straws to justify a personal dislike for a deck that was banned in order to shake up the PT meta and make sure new Eldrazi would see play. Nothing more nothing less.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

If exarch or mite did not have flash wotc would not have banned it for sure. Many people view it, including wotc, as instant speed in the same way crop rotation eot into the depths combo is considered to be instant speed and storm is considered to be sorcery speed.
It is not my rules or classifications, as I said, it is how they and others vin general vew the combo. The analogy between depths and twin is close, and most Legacy players refer to Depths eot via rotation as instant speed, although that does not ascribe it any special consideration in Legacy, it is meaningless beyond descriptive purpose for Legacy players. Modern players think differently. Maybe swords being a million times better than path makes them think that? I don't know.


The same people who view it that way won't let me have one mana cursed totems (4 mana or 3 mana is the going rate for Linvala or Damping Matrix) or null rods for walkers or any other stax pieces.

These are not my rules, you understand, just what I am observing.
I am surprised that Titan in particular has not had the bans meted out to Twin. There seems to be a cloak.of invisibility around the deck, and there are definite double standards regarding bans.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
If exarch or mite did not have flash wotc would not have banned it for sure. Many people view it, including wotc, as instant speed in the same way crop rotation eot into the depths combo is considered to be instant speed and storm is considered to be sorcery speed.
It is not my rules or classifications, as I said, it is how they and others vin general vew the combo. The analogy between depths and twin is close, and most Legacy players refer to Depths eot via rotation as instant speed, although that does not ascribe it any special consideration in Legacy, it is meaningless beyond descriptive purpose for Legacy players. Modern players think differently.
I think with Force of Vigor in the format, this should be irrelevant. Never mind that it should be irrelevant regardless, because good players should read their opponents, predict actions, represent answers, and play a more complex game than *vomit hand* and "deal with this."

It's not an instant speed combo, and the creatures having Flash is irrelevant. If you are worried about the combo, you wouldn't tap out anyway.

If I'm against Titanshift, for example, and they have the ability to make 6 mana on their turn 4 (after my turn 3), or they could have access to just 5 mana and Through the Breach, should I tap out to play my sweet 3 drop? Or stay back and hold up a Disdainful Stroke or Path to Exile? Because that exact thing has happened, where I tapped out to play a thing, and then died against a Breached Primeval Titan, before I could take my 4th turn. Should that be banned too? Or was I just punished for misreading what my opponent was capable of, and made the choice to play whatever it was I played, instead of holding up (or representing) a way to stop them?

This notion of "I can't tap out" is so absurd I feel insulted having to address it. I understand you are just a messenger here, but it doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

Edit: I also firmly remember one of my first interactions with Grisshoalbrand, in which I tapped out on their end step to flash in a no-value Snapcaster in order to generate a clock. They proceeded to kill me at instant speed before it ever actually got to my turn. Lesson learned.

Edit2:
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
I am surprised that Titan in particular has not had the bans meted out to Twin. There seems to be a cloak.of invisibility around the deck, and there are definite double standards regarding bans.
It looks like this was added after I initially quoted. And on this, I most certainly agree. It is fairly insulting to have this notion of "You're not allowed to win out of nowhere" and then have a deck that literally has two completely different builds, capable of "winning out of nowhere" in completely different ways, while also having a devastating and nigh unbeatable late game.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
It's not an instant speed combo, and the creatures having Flash is irrelevant. If you are worried about the combo, you wouldn't tap out anyway.
If the creatures having flash is irrelevant, would you play Corridor Monitor over Exarch or not? Same stats, but 1 mana less and without flash and the tap/untap permanent.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
If exarch or mite did not have flash wotc would not have banned it for sure. Many people view it, including wotc, as instant speed in the same way crop rotation eot into the depths combo is considered to be instant speed and storm is considered to be sorcery speed.
It is not my rules or classifications, as I said, it is how they and others vin general vew the combo. The analogy between depths and twin is close, and most Legacy players refer to Depths eot via rotation as instant speed, although that does not ascribe it any special consideration in Legacy, it is meaningless beyond descriptive purpose for Legacy players. Modern players think differently.
I think with Force of Vigor in the format, this should be irrelevant. Never mind that it should be irrelevant regardless, because good players should read their opponents, predict actions, represent answers, and play a more complex game than *vomit hand* and "deal with this."

It's not an instant speed combo, and the creatures having Flash is irrelevant. If you are worried about the combo, you wouldn't tap out anyway.
I think that is exactly one of the reasons it got banned. Opponent is worried the entire game about tapping out not knowing if the combo is there or not = unfun.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
I think that is exactly one of the reasons it got banned. Opponent is worried the entire game about tapping out not knowing if the combo is there or not = unfun.
So what is the excuse for Primeval Titan remaining legal? Do you tap out against a deck that can kill you the turn a Titan resolves?

This stance would carry more weight if it wasn't so laughably hypocritical.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

So what is the excuse for Primeval Titan remaining legal? Do you tap out against a deck that can kill you the turn a Titan resolves?
because Primeval titan cost 6 mana.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
So what is the excuse for Primeval Titan remaining legal? Do you tap out against a deck that can kill you the turn a Titan resolves?
because Primeval titan cost 6 mana.
And that means it's safe to tap out against up till turn 6? Or are we pretending this is a meaningful difference?

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
I think that is exactly one of the reasons it got banned. Opponent is worried the entire game about tapping out not knowing if the combo is there or not = unfun.
So what is the excuse for Primeval Titan remaining legal? Do you tap out against a deck that can kill you the turn a Titan resolves?

This stance would carry more weight if it wasn't so laughably hypocritical.
Because,

Turn 1 Bolt.
Turn 2 Remand.
Turn 3 EoT tap your land or ignore your irrelevant play.
Turn 4 Twin.

It doesn't matter. Until Amulet hits 20% of the meta, it will never pull in enough attention.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

[mention]cfusionpm[/mention]

I'd like to reply some more, but that would just add unnecessary fuel to the fire in this twin debate that only happened again because heliod. Most of what I was going to say already said by gkorou and idsurge. Time for some real life work, need to earn some cash so I can order again and get some guild kit lands for my knightfall. ^^
_______________________

Oh, leaving a question to those who plan to jam the new heliod ballista combo. Do you go all in and have a playset of each combo piece.. or is it enough to only splash a 3/3 split or even a 2/2 split of heliod and balista into the deck?
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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

If you're running a CoCo build, you should probably just run 1 Ballista and max out Heliod and Spike Feeder. Feeder + Heliod jives better with CoCo and infinite life should make most decks scoop.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

I'm not going to waste my time debunking claims anymore today. It's frankly exhausting. I'll just say that the interpretations today do not reflect history or views of the time, every justification made for the ban was laughably wrong or failed. And that in today's meta, a number of decks are better, more robust, more powerful, and harder to interact with than Twin ever was, even at its peak.

As for Heliod/Ballista, because there is no meaningful color restriction, it will probably take a while to find the best shell. But I assume something with mana dorks to accelerate it out (as well as draw removal away from combo pieces). Blue may or may not even be needed, and it doesn't even really need to be a primary win con. And while we don't have any real or meaningful data, I'm sure a bunch of piles of cards will manage to 5-0 a non-swiss League and get thrown in with the list dumps. I imagine old CoCi lists or Devoted Vizier lists could easily slot this in.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
I'm not going to waste my time debunking claims anymore today. It's frankly exhausting. I'll just say that the interpretations today do not reflect history or views of the time, every justification made for the ban was laughably wrong or failed. And that in today's meta, a number of decks are better, more robust, more powerful, and harder to interact with than Twin ever was, even at its peak.
It'd help if you yourself didn't make asinine claims about how the deck played and how sub-optimally it forced other decks to react to it, while itself was just "threatening" to combo, thereby gaining massive tempo advantage.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
I'm not going to waste my time debunking claims anymore today. It's frankly exhausting. I'll just say that the interpretations today do not reflect history or views of the time, every justification made for the ban was laughably wrong or failed. And that in today's meta, a number of decks are better, more robust, more powerful, and harder to interact with than Twin ever was, even at its peak.
Bud, this is what I've been telling you for months on end. It's irrelevant what reality is.

'UR Phoenix is a Fair Midrange deck.'
'UR Phoenix doesnt need a ban.'

People actually said these things. People actually may even have believed these things!

You need to let go. Stop coming from a place where you assume people are arguing from a place of knowledge, without bias. It's not been working, and I see no reason for it to start. :p
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
I'm not going to waste my time debunking claims anymore today. It's frankly exhausting. I'll just say that the interpretations today do not reflect history or views of the time, every justification made for the ban was laughably wrong or failed. And that in today's meta, a number of decks are better, more robust, more powerful, and harder to interact with than Twin ever was, even at its peak.
Bud, this is what I've been telling you for months on end. It's irrelevant what reality is.

'UR Phoenix is a Fair Midrange deck.'
'UR Phoenix doesnt need a ban.'

People actually said these things. People actually may even have believed these things!

You need to let go. Stop coming from a place where you assume people are arguing from a place of knowledge, without bias. It's not been working, and I see no reason for it to start. :p
First, you think you aren't biased yourself? What makes your bias more relevant than others'?
Second, disagreeing with you doesn't mean the others are ignorant. It means they don't see it the same way as you. Unless you're making the argument that your POV is the only correct one.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Never said I wasnt biased. I am biased. I think if you dont see Blue as the pinnacle of Magic you dont know what makes Magic great.

That said, cfusionpm continues to believe he can reason, with people who are not willing to be reasonable regarding the position of Twin. People who actually believe Remand is playable in 2020. People who think Snapcaster is a card that matters.

People have bias. Every.single.one.of.us. To even attempt after all this time, after Wizards has proven COMPLETELY ignorant regarding actual design/development (ref: 2019) and can only blindly stumble into a successful meta (Dom/Guilds) by chance....just why?

Why persist in trying to argue for something that was (outside those who played it) completely hated? It just wont happen. Amulet ate its first ban because of some meme's coming out of some twitch clips! LSV alone gifted us with the London Mulligan! Its is not logic that drives this game, it is not reason.

Long ago, we used to make fun of Games Workshop, because it was a game designed by Art's Majors, played by Science Majors. Magic now, is a game governed by Social Media, guided by sales metrics.
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Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Long ago, we used to make fun of Games Workshop, because it was a game designed by Art's Majors, played by Science Majors. Magic now, is a game governed by Social Media, guided by sales metrics.
Interesting comparison. You can give GW a fair bit of credit for not compromising on the integrity of the game at the cost of capitalistic expansion. Playing 40k or whatever is crazy expensive and it's only gone up with time. A lot of entrenched players complain about the cost which is understandable to a degree. Except, at the end of the day it is a high-end boutique hobby. If you want to maintain the quality of the product you have to keep increasing the cost to keep up with expenses. In fact, they have actually increased the quality with product lines like The Horus Heresy where everything is more expensive but you also get expanded rules, more detailed models, and more comprehensive backstories.

Alternatively, they could have started making cheaper budget armies to try and win new consumers. This potentially does two things: 1. it might upset those that have invested in the game for years because it devalues their game pieces and 2. it devalues the brand because any new players will first come into contact with the "budget" products. Long term these new players might not bond as well with the product because it is less well developed.

(If it's not obvious) This is basically what a WotC has done. My main concern is that the new players that WotC is trying to recruit with all of the new product wont still be here in 5, 10, 15 years because the product isn't as good as it was when we got hooked.

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Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

Regarding the Heliod-Twin discussion, at least white might actually be playable in Modern. So that's something!

One could argue that while the combo is similar to Twin in isolation, the color identity sets it in a completely different context. Regardless of if you think Twin should be banned, you could imagine that if it were not in blue/red then the calculations when playing it would have been very different.

So white finally gets a way to win in Modern, is that so bad?

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
I'm not going to waste my time debunking claims anymore today. It's frankly exhausting. I'll just say that the interpretations today do not reflect history or views of the time, every justification made for the ban was laughably wrong or failed. And that in today's meta, a number of decks are better, more robust, more powerful, and harder to interact with than Twin ever was, even at its peak.
It'd help if you yourself didn't make asinine claims about how the deck played and how sub-optimally it forced other decks to react to it, while itself was just "threatening" to combo, thereby gaining massive tempo advantage.
I would take "I have to play sub-optimally in order to stall the game out and be able to play more and have my decisions matter" over "I'm going to dump my hand as fast as possible, my opponent is going to dump their hand as fast as possible, we see who is faster, and who wins the rock-paper-scissors draw of hate cards!" every time.

That tempo advantage was literally the absolute best thing for a healthy format. A format that has since been defined by fast, powerful, degenerate nonsense, where tempo and control is effectively unplayable at a competitive level.

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