[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 816
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
sorry for late reply, but it's only today that I received the news mail from tcgplayer. There's one Heliod Ballista combo deck that got top8 in modern challenge. Diverse top 8, and surprsingly no Urza.

https://decks.tcgplayer.com/magic/deck/ ... r_01212020
That's a very interesting top 8, but I don't think it means much. The meta is still settling. My friend was 5-0 with Crabvine, then lost to be 5-1. I'm assuming he finished x-2, so he missed the top 8. Then he posted a 5-0 yesterday in a League. He said it was published in the WotC 5-0 dump; not sure where to find that though.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 1943
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Contact:

Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

speaking about Crab Vine. Seems like it's also rather competitive deck. There's at least two people who wanted to buy hedron crabs from me last year on facebook - although I was not able to ask what deck they would use the crabs on.
Image
AnimEVO 2020 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 816
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
speaking about Crab Vine. Seems like it's also rather competitive deck. There's at least two people who wanted to buy hedron crabs from me last year on facebook - although I was not able to ask what deck they would use the crabs on.
They could be filthy casuals though.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=787&meta=51&f=MO
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

stubb
Posts: 20
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by stubb » 1 year ago

I've had tons of fun playing Modern lately. Played against this GW Elvish Reclaimer / Knight of the Reliquary brew with 27 lands. Felt a bit like Legacy Maverick. It was sweet.

I'm 100% here for Modern right now. Yeah, Prime Time is annoying, but there are clear solutions to it for most decks other than Jund.

User avatar
Bearscape
Posts: 213
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago

Seems to me that you are one of those Johnny big monsters who don't like to be told 'no'. Attitudes like yours are why this format has cards like Oko it that we can't deal with because people with your attitude label anything controlling that locks you out as unfun. If you are locked out by these cards you have built your deck wrong. Cards like blood moon are essential to stop non basics being rancid. Bridge stops you attacking with huge cheated creatures, for a time. Neither end the game on the spot. Neither.
Modern has horrendous problems with threats vs answers, because they catered to people who don't like answers for too long.
You can disagree with me that the cards are poorly designed, my point was mostly that your "the decks are the issue not the cards" argument was utter nonsense.

Btw the "You are the cause of Oko" insult legit made me laugh, that's how a magic the gathering religion starts
Was not trying to be insulting, but it is wotc's attempt to please a certain demographic that has lead to an mtg where threats massively outweigh answers. Whether you are part of that I don't know, but the people who they are trying to please are those that can't stand being out of the game for a couple of turns, which is all moon, bridge and other similar cards do. Oko is just another example of a great planeswalker that is busted because of the pool; they won't make a cheap card that means planeswalkers don't work until the piece is gone. They have said that people don't like such cards. So it isn't "you created oko" more "you won't let us have prison piece answers to it". Whether you are part of that, I don't know, as I said, but if you think Bridge and Moon are bad cards for the environment you are who wotc are thinking about when they refuse to print prison piece preemptive answers...
I get what you mean, but there definitely is such a thing as too good of an answer. Prime example is Veil of Summer; clearly an interactive card, but just much too good of a rate for 1 mana. Cards like Moon, Bridge and little Teferi are good answers to certain strategies, strategies that should in a way be punishable, but they are too good in that they just end the game on the spot (as ktk pointed out, this is more the case for Moon than the other two).

I do have to say that these kinds of cards are very low on my priority list and I'll still play a Modern in which all those 3 are legal. I think there's much more pressing issues for the format, #1 being Veil of Summer, and after that there's the waiting to see how Urza, Prime Time and Underworld Breach will develop.

User avatar
pierreb
Posts: 266
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Up North

Post by pierreb » 1 year ago

ModernDefector wrote:
1 year ago
No speculation or conspiracy theory is necessary. WotC has explicitly stated it as criteria in two recent banning announcements.
While cases can be made for each, we identified Bridge from Below as the card most likely to cause metagame imbalance again in the future. Because Bridge from Below doesn't cost mana or other resources to use and isn't reliant on being drawn naturally from the library, its power level is highly sensitive to the cards that synergize with it. As new card designs that have synergy with the graveyard are released over time, Bridge from Below is the most likely key card in the deck to become problematic again.
As new card designs are released that deal with the graveyard, discarding cards, and casting cheap spells, the power of Faithless Looting's efficient hand and graveyard manipulation continues to scale upward. Regardless of Hogaak's recent impact, Faithless Looting would be a likely eventual addition to the banned list in the near future. In order to ensure the metagame doesn't again revert to a Faithless Looting graveyard deck being dominant, we believe now is the correct time to make this change.
Anticipatory and preemptive. Stated plainly, in conjunction with other criteria.
Those words don't mean what you think they mean. Anticipatory and preemptive would mean banning a card that is not problematic for some unknown future problem. Both these cards were banned due to real problematic decks. The quotes you provide merely state that the specific card they chose among possible target were chosen because they are the the most likely to be problematic again.

Gee. We're even having this exact debate over urza: ban a card that is generally helpful in degenerate decks (astrolabe, opal) or ban the central piece that is the problem (urza). You can have preference over which to ban depending on your opinion on the format and how the ban list should work. This is not anticipatory. Not preemptive. It's about a real problem.

User avatar
ktkenshinx
Posts: 571
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: West Coast
Contact:

Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

ModernDefector wrote:
1 year ago
I was not referring to Mox Opal.

No speculation or conspiracy theory is necessary. WotC has explicitly stated it as criteria in two recent banning announcements.
While cases can be made for each, we identified Bridge from Below as the card most likely to cause metagame imbalance again in the future. Because Bridge from Below doesn't cost mana or other resources to use and isn't reliant on being drawn naturally from the library, its power level is highly sensitive to the cards that synergize with it. As new card designs that have synergy with the graveyard are released over time, Bridge from Below is the most likely key card in the deck to become problematic again.
As new card designs are released that deal with the graveyard, discarding cards, and casting cheap spells, the power of Faithless Looting's efficient hand and graveyard manipulation continues to scale upward. Regardless of Hogaak's recent impact, Faithless Looting would be a likely eventual addition to the banned list in the near future. In order to ensure the metagame doesn't again revert to a Faithless Looting graveyard deck being dominant, we believe now is the correct time to make this change.
Anticipatory and preemptive. Stated plainly, in conjunction with other criteria.

...

But we can just look at their own words from the two announcements above. Even if your deck/card is not the deck/card causing metagame problems right now, if it's deemed unfun or is predicted to cause problems in a future metagame, you now have to fear it getting the preemptive war-style axe for this Minority Report-style crime.
As pierre said, I don't think we can put this in the same category as the unfun factor. Lattice quite literally got banned for the primary offense of not being fun. It doesn't get more clean-cut than a direct Wizards quote on the matter. These other examples you gave are just identifying factors that point them to which card to ban after a deck has already committed a series of offenses. They're also not new: Birthing Pod's ban had similar verbiage in 2015 (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2015-01-19):

"Each year, new powerful options are printed, most recently Siege Rhino. Over time, this creates a growing gap between the strength of the Pod deck and other creature decks. "

Again, this is just Wizards noting an additional risk factor of an existing, offensive card/deck. It does not appear to be a criterion for a ban, but rather a method that helps Wizards identify the card that should be banned in an already broken deck.
In addition, it's naive to think that every public WotC announcement contains the entirety of their considerations. It's a bit wide-eyed to imagine that the idea that Tron would thrive post-Oko/Opal was absent from their mind, contributing to the Lattice ban in a desire to weaken it a bit. Shaving cards off of strong decks to weaken them is another intention that's been stated. The subtext of other bannings looked similarly obvious.
I'm totally fine reading between the B&R update lines, but it needs to be based on evidence. For instance, there were tons of unspoken motives in the Twin ban that came to light through Tweets and Reddit posts. That new evidence forced us to reconsider Wizards' public actions and statements. But it was still written, verifiable evidence. In this case, I actually don't think you aren't citing evidence, which is what I have seen on Reddit with the absurd Opal/Breach connection. Instead, I think you're just misinterpreting it; the cards banned for alleged "preemptive/anticipatory" reasons were actually banned for other clear metagame offenses. I'd just note the preemptive piece as Wizards identifying a potential risk factor with a card/deck already on the chopping block.
Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I literally believe are going to be out of the table for all of the 2020. If you dream about Pod, Twin, or GSZ, or even Preordain, I would say, stop dreaming.
Twin in particular is never coming off. GSZ has multiple replacements, and honestly so does Pod. Preordain could come off easily, but it's not really a relevant card, and is just a 'critical mass of cantrips' card.

No unbans, for some time.
UR Control UR

User avatar
motleyslayer
Posts: 844
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago


I heard many people categorizing Splinter Twin as unfun as well. I don't believe this, but twitter seems to be hating the idea of twin unbanned, as it creates bad play patterns and unfun games, where if you don't have the removal you are out of the game.
I think that's the most common reason against the Twin unban, it creates some unfun lines where you have to always hold up answers in case they are able to combo off. Or they win because you just couldn't answer the combo

Tomatotime
Posts: 197
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

motleyslayer wrote:
1 year ago
I think that's the most common reason against the Twin unban, it creates some unfun lines where you have to always hold up answers in case they are able to combo off. Or they win because you just couldn't answer the combo
On top of all of that even is the case where you spend the whole game holding up answers for Twin out of fear and then they just kill you using other tools instead, all the while they might not have even had the combo in the deck post game 1 etc.

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

motleyslayer wrote:
1 year ago
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago


I heard many people categorizing Splinter Twin as unfun as well. I don't believe this, but twitter seems to be hating the idea of twin unbanned, as it creates bad play patterns and unfun games, where if you don't have the removal you are out of the game.
I think that's the most common reason against the Twin unban, it creates some unfun lines where you have to always hold up answers in case they are able to combo off. Or they win because you just couldn't answer the combo
I mean, as opposed to what? Tron? Dredge? Storm? Titan? Urza? Are these the benchmark of "good play patterns" and "fun gameplay"? Various aggressive strategies that are difficult or impossible to interact with outside of narrow hate?

Someone said recently about Modern lacking identity; at least since the days of Pod/Twin/Jund/Tron/Burn/Infect. I could argue that Modern's "identity" has been nothing more than: "degenerate decks, waiting to be banned." And that realization is very sad.

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 553
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Pretty much Modern's identity since day zero was-degenerate decks, waiting to be banned. Look at those blazing shoal decks. Some get the hammer, some don't, leaving everyone upset that x is legal whilst y is not.
Pretty much most deserve the bans they get, but they get banned round the edges, bar pod and twin. To an extent the strong reaction of pod and twin players meant they were even more weary about hitting the key cards, meaning those players' reactions saved decks like Tron from ever having the tron lands nerfed, or Urza from urza, or amulet from amulet, whilst never getting their decks back.
I think it is not going to matter. My LGS published its new schedule. No modern, and no surprise. The format will die sooner or later, and will go down as the biggest mess in the history of the game.

Threats outweigh answers in the pool, and it has gotten worse leading to more degeneracy.
.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Look at this beauty. I hope this is legit, cuz it looks crazy.

UR Control UR

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 816
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
I mean, as opposed to what? Tron? Dredge? Storm? Titan? Urza? Are these the benchmark of "good play patterns" and "fun gameplay"? Various aggressive strategies that are difficult or impossible to interact with outside of narrow hate?

Someone said recently about Modern lacking identity; at least since the days of Pod/Twin/Jund/Tron/Burn/Infect. I could argue that Modern's "identity" has been nothing more than: "degenerate decks, waiting to be banned." And that realization is very sad.
I think people get too caught up in this. Any of those said decks or any good Modern deck can kill you out of nowhere quite often. Tapping out against most Modern decks could lead to something very bad happening. It's one of the reasons that T3feri is so devastating - having to play at Sorcery speed.

But I think some people have just played against Twin the most. Twin was around the longest before eating a ban. Every other deck that could do something similar got banned before having the longevity of Twin. So, many players have struggled with Twin. I probably am 50/50 lifetime vs. Twin with various decks, but they also equate to the majority of my losses. This is more losses than I've had to any other 1 deck and way more than Tron since I've played way more matches vs. Twin.

You are very right in your post and I think most people miss this point. Any good Modern deck can kill you. When I'm playing Elementals for Christ sake, I'm waiting for my opponent to tap out so I can do some degenerate stuff like Lightning Skelemental into Phantasmal Image on it. And that's a %$#% deck...
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Look at this beauty. I hope this is legit, cuz it looks crazy.

The deck looks legit. It looks similar to something my friend was working on. I was kind of wondering why he was SO happy about buying 4 Uros for $100 total, especially since his former deck list didn't have the card. I think I may start playing this deck since it's always fun to smash with decks that should have had a stronger piece banned, but wasn't (like Hogaak after Bridge was banned). :grin:
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
robertleva
Posts: 484
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

[mention]gkourou[/mention] I understand what you are trying to say, but you don't fix a format of degenerate toxic decks by unbanning one you have already dealt with. You may even be right that by comparison the current degenerate decks are worse than Twin. But that still doesnt absolve Twin from being annoying to lose to. I think Dr Mark is right. Modern's identity is degenerate broken toxic decks in the process of being banned since day 1.

Feel free to ride which ever of these sinking ships you like, just realize they are all suffering from the same format spanning cancer: being degenerate and unfun.
Robert Leva
Creator of Modern's 8Rack Deck
Image

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 1943
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Contact:

Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

I remember seeing at least one post saying they're having fun in modern. I'm also currently having fun with modern.. testing a Bant Knightfall combo deck with friends. I know it's probably a tier 2 deck or worse right now, but the fun is still there, satisfying when the combo works and one-shot people.

Hmm... and noticed that the Twin discussion is just never going to die. I want the deck to come back, but it looks impossible. Wotc would never unban the card.
Image
AnimEVO 2020 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

User avatar
Bearscape
Posts: 213
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

WotC would also never unban Jace the Mind Sculptor

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 1943
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Contact:

Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

the difference between Jace and Twin is.. Jace TMS was banned from the beginning, and then unbanned. Twin was legal for a long time and then banned. So far, I don't know of any modern card that was legal for a long time.. banned.. and then unbanned.
Image
AnimEVO 2020 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

User avatar
LeoTzu
Posts: 30
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by LeoTzu » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
the difference between Jace and Twin is.. Jace TMS was banned from the beginning, and then unbanned. Twin was legal for a long time and then banned. So far, I don't know of any modern card that was legal for a long time.. banned.. and then unbanned.
Depends on what you qualify as a "long time."

Wild Nacatl was legal, then banned, then unbanned. It only existed in the ban for a few months before the ban.

BBE was legal for like a year and a half before being banned, then unbanned at the same time as Jace.

It's not unprecedented for a card to make it back from the banlist.

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
WotC would also never unban Jace the Mind Sculptor
Or Stoneforge Mystic.

DarthDrac
Posts: 22
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by DarthDrac » 1 year ago

The most fun I've had in Modern was Hollow One, rakdos roulette style, this deck died with Faithless Looting. I'm okay with that, I had Green Tron, Dredge, Living End and CrabVine, I am a fan of graveyard decks. Tron is boring and repetitive to play, but I actually think it is fairly interesting to play against, it has main-deck answers to graveyard strategies in Relic and a selection of sweepers you need to try and play around. The Lattice lock though was a woeful "win" condition and I'm glad to see it go.

Why the preamble, well, fun is subjective, I think Lattice was unfun, but 2 Hollow Ones for free on turn 2 was, frankly awesome! It's the same argument former Twin players make, the combo is creature based, thus easy to answer, Hollow One is an artifact and a creature, so in theory it's even easier to answer, but we all know that isn't actually the case. When dies to removal is your response, it's an excuse. It took me a while to realise that, but it genuinely is the case.

I'm still having fun in Modern, but I'm also having fun in Pioneer. In both formats at present I'm playing decks with Ilharg, the Raze-Boar and Generator Servant. Sure Modern has Goryo's, which is a dumb card and allows for a potential turn 2 win, but the decks are relatively fair, if your opponent can interact and kill the Servant for example... That if, is the catch. If my opponent can't kill the 2/1 creature, they likely lose next turn, is that fair? It's legal in Pioneer and Modern, but is it fair? I'm honestly not sure, but it is fun...

All that being said, I think the talk of interaction and the concept of dies to removal are flawed, not least because it forgets that green isn't very good at that style of play, so play a green deck and lose becomes Modern's poster? Maybe unban Mental Misstep, so green has Dismember and it to interact?

I believe Wizards made one critical error with Modern Horizons, it isn't Hogaak, Urza, Wrenn and Six or Arcum's Astrolabe. It's that the set was designed to be drafted. A draft set can never inject the answers (or enablers) we want to see, since answers.set would be a poor draft experience. This problem extends to Standard sets too, for draft to be workable answers need to be kept at a certain degree of inefficiency and scarcity.

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

I guess I just don't understand people's definition of "fun" if they think Twin is totally unacceptable, but Tron, Dredge, Titan, Storm, Urza, and even stuff like Neobrand are somehow better and more fun against?

I'm just having a hard time rationalizing what it is people mean by fun, if interactive games of magic with bluffing and representation, rather than two sides vomiting their hands as fast as possible, is apparently not fun.

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 1943
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Contact:

Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Unfortunately, what matters here is the people in wotc definition of fun, and not our definition of fun. Because they are the people who decide what cards stay, and what get banned. Said this before a few pages back in this thread, the fact they banned saheeli cat almost immediately in Pioneer is one sign they dislike twin style of combo.

And just to be clear I'm not against Twin getting unbanned. I would benefit if it is unbanned, but almost no chance of it happening.
Image
AnimEVO 2020 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
I guess I just don't understand people's definition of "fun" if they think Twin is totally unacceptable, but Tron, Dredge, Titan, Storm, Urza, and even stuff like Neobrand are somehow better and more fun against?

I'm just having a hard time rationalizing what it is people mean by fun, if interactive games of magic with bluffing and representation, rather than two sides vomiting their hands as fast as possible, is apparently not fun.
Fun for most of the current Modern player base, is based on on the board. Its not about hidden information, its not about bluffs, and its not about old principles like card advantage or tempo.

Its about turning Magic from a card game, into a board game, where your cards are actually just play pieces on the table.

Its been a slow decline for years and years, but thats it.

Twin has no board that matters...until it really really matters. So people hate it.
UR Control UR

User avatar
pizzap
Posts: 9
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by pizzap » 1 year ago

LeoTzu wrote:
1 year ago
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
the difference between Jace and Twin is.. Jace TMS was banned from the beginning, and then unbanned. Twin was legal for a long time and then banned. So far, I don't know of any modern card that was legal for a long time.. banned.. and then unbanned.
Depends on what you qualify as a "long time."

Wild Nacatl was legal, then banned, then unbanned. It only existed in the ban for a few months before the ban.

BBE was legal for like a year and a half before being banned, then unbanned at the same time as Jace.

It's not unprecedented for a card to make it back from the banlist.
Wild Nacatl was unbanned after the enabler GSZ was banned.
BBE was unbanned after the enabler DRS was banned.
Twin IS the enabler, so it is a totally different case. There are no examples yet that an enabler that was banned after the initial ban list has been unbanned. In other words, don't count on an unban of Twin based on BBE and Nacatl.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Modern”