[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Yawgmoth wrote:
1 year ago
Would love to see people's thoughts. I just want to enjoy Modern and an over-policed format while technically "balanced" isn't necessarily fun.
I agree with the general thrust of your post. Its something I mentioned in a conversation on Twitter the day after the ban. The worst part of this is that Modern is not, and has not, been even 'balanced'. So we literally have gained nothing these last 4 or so years, we have only lost an identity.
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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

Yawgmoth wrote:
1 year ago
Would love to see people's thoughts. I just want to enjoy Modern and an over-policed format while technically "balanced" isn't necessarily fun.
I agree with basically everything you said. I would only clarify that all of this makes Legacy home to enfranchised, veteran, established players who prefer a spikier kind of Magic. It will never have the kind of widespread popularity of whatever nonrotating format Wizards is choosing to push at the time, whether that's Modern for the last 9 years or Pioneer going forward. That's fine for Legacy veterans and the trickle of format newcomers, but sad for the masses who deserve a diverse, exciting, and fun nonrotating format with ongoing Wizards support.

I also fully agree Modern will be replaced by Pioneer at this current rate, which I have said numerous times. I think 5 years is extremely generous for that prediction; I'm expecting Modern to be toast during 2021 at this current pace. There are ways to try to reverse the decline, but it will take the kind of unified community voice we simply don't have. It will also require Wizards to make more strategic investment in Modern, which they don't seem inclined to do. Incidentally, I expect Pioneer also won't have a clear identity. It will just be the "new" nonrotating format with widespread Wizards support, which is enough of an identity to bury Modern but not enough to make Pioneer intrinsically compelling. This seems to be because Wizards is focused on short-term profits from enfranchised players, customer acquisition, and carving out new markets for future gains. They are just counting on the super enfranchised community members like us forum-goers to maintain our habits no matter what Wizards does. We've been doing it for 5-25 years; we're probably going to keep doing it even if Wizards continues to make decisions that hurt us.
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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

Take this with a grain of salt, but Id personally prefer to see the following. if and when modern dies reboot Overextended with knowledge of the failures that modern was led into. [mention]ktkenshinx[/mention] has already laid the groundwork in statements to wizards and forum posts, and Id rather trust some of the debaters in this forum with banning discussion than wizards. Theres brand new territory in expanding the cardpool to the original overextended format parameters and the definition of the format can be hammered out.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

I think Modern has been in a bad spot for quite a while now, but it sure is a hell of a lot better than Pioneer. That format feels less diverse than Standard (although I haven't played Standard much) and that's saying a lot! I still play Modern a lot nowadays. Now that I haven't had any PTQs recently, I've played around 90% Modern and 10% Pioneer in the past 3 months. Pioneer was literally only because they had high level events with cash, which I didn't get.

Once Upon a Time has made Ancient Stirrings look like a very mediocre card in Amulet Titan. Veil of Summer sees play in 5 Color Niv. For people that don't know, the 5 Color Niv deck purposely chooses only multicolored cards to maximize hits off Bring to Light for Niv Mizzet. I personally was surprised that they even run Birds of Paradise, but I guess they can give up a few cards for a turn 4 Niv.

Once Upon a Time is played in Infect, Bogles, Devoted Druid, Titanshift, Amulet (sometimes), Goblins, non Karn the GC Tron, BUG Shadow, and probably many more. There is nothing more disheartening than seeing your opponent cast Once Upon a Time to start off a game. To me, it's the new Gitaxian Probe for Grixis Delver in Legacy before Probe and Deathrite Shaman ate bans. The only difference is that Once Upon a Time is better in a "free" scenario.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Tomatotime wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Obvious point- how does it end the game immediately. I mean you do yourself no service by saying this easily fact checked statement, Twin plus pestermite or RIP helm is a combo that literally ends the game. A blood moon plus nothing literally does not.
IIt is true path is not moon, but preemptively stopping something is what we need against the problems of Modern this past year. "You can't cast" is needed, you can't design mtg with just "I kill this". So many Modern bans are a consequence of not making answers that might upset certain types of players.
It "immediately" ends the game in the sense that it stops the victim from casting cards, which is something that 99% of decks in Modern need to do to play Magic: The Gathering(tm) and win. You argue semantics all you want, the point remains.
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Equally obvious point- Aside from scapeshift into Valakut, the whole point is that cards like Moon stops cards like Field of the Dead becoming rancid. Why was the card banned in standard. It is the existence of these cards that stops them being rancid, If nonbasics besides Valakut and Tron are doing nothing it is because Blood Moon exists. Had it existed in Standard, Field would not have been banned. Non basics are fine because of the safety valve that is Moon.
Honestly, scapeshift into valakut isn't a real concern for me in terms of Modern, there are bigger issues that have been plaguing Modern for years, Tron being the chief concern. And even if Field of the dead and Tron together are massive threats to the format, it is literally easier to just ban those 2 cards to also justify a blood moon ban rather than to make the entire format have to put up with degenerate threats, and degenerate responses to said threats which also happen to cannibalize other decks who are honest actors within the format but are simply being held down by certain decks or cards which should probably be banned anyways.
You can play Moonless format in Pioneer, which sounds like the Mtg you would enjoy. We aren't ever going to agree on this. Modern has been a Blood Moon format from the start, with zero issues. I don't want to argue semantics either, I have seen more Blood Moons cast than most. They rarely end the game in any sense, and rarely lock someone out unless the opponent fetches badly or they are backed up with landkill. Let us disagree on that.
There is a whole generation of Mtg players bought up on the standards of bad answers, easy access to mana and zero prison cards who believe mtg is about smashing critters and removal after critters have hit. It is not their fault, that is the Mtg they were bought up on. Every now and then one pops up on Legacy fora and asks 'what can we do about force of will?' to much amusement. As far as I am concerned they have Pioneer. Modern is not about that, never has been, if Moon and Bridge are an issue, you are just in the wrong format. Modern's at its best when it self regulates with such cards, so that we never have the embarrassment of banning Field of the dead. Moon is actually not that good vs Tron, sadly, it needs to be backed up by something, but that is an argument for better land hate, not less.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
They are not directly connected, but Veil would be far less ubiquitous if white and red had answers that needed dealing with, though, and if many decks could choose to run a wide range of veil-proof answers to the next Oko, alongside ones hit by Veil then Veil would not be as useful or as common. The issue is Veil nerfs the only good options for control in the format and has protected some stupidly good stuff. I mean we know that cards are contextual- Field of the dead is not banworthy in a standard with wasteland, for example, but is in the recent one. Veil could exist in a different card pool as it does in Legacy without huge issues, as a superb card rather than a broken one. Sadly we don't have that card pool, and Veil nerfs the only good stuff.
All absolutely defensible positions, but the reality needs to be discuss, not just the hypothetical.

The reality, as that Veil alone is enough to dent that already tenuous position that U and B have within the format. It is not a well designed card, it is not appropriately costed, and it fundamentally tilt's what is already a tilted meta.

Yes, it can exist in Legacy, fine. It's not a balanced card, and it actively discourages the exact kind of gameplay that has struggled for near 5 years, that has had multiple targeted unban's to attempt to prop up.

Could Veil be a hypothetically fine card? Sure.
Is Veil a fine card in Modern? No.

Moon and Bridge are far closer to fine (and I argue they are fine) compared to Veil. 1 Mana Cryptic that spits in the face of interactive magic is the stupidest card since T3feri.

3 things will continue to degrade Magic.

1. London Mull.
2. Cards like T3feri and Veil.
3. Further Oko like Power Creep/Leap.

If those 3 things are not handled better, the game continues to take a nose dive.
Well you know I am a vigorous defender of London in Limited and Legacy at least, and as you know I want answers to walkers-a white Null Rod for them, NOT a piddling tax. Those walkers and others will continue to be a disease because of, yes indeed, Johnny big monster and his planeswalkers. He loves his monsters and walkers, and does not want toxic stuff that says he can't use them like Bridge, board wipes and anything that stops him activating them played by the nasty troll player on the other side of the board with his deck that has the temerity to make him spend two or three turns unable to do do anything. Sadly that is where we are with walkers, themselves they are not an issue, even powerful ones like tef and karn, if the game has balance, and when it doesn't we get oko level issues. We need answers for this toxic stuff.


I think even if veil gets banned the remaining pool is not up to it. You said it, U and B control is tenuous, and as I said r and w control is pretty weak by comparision. What does that leave us? W and U synergise just enough to make a decent fist of a control deck, despite w only really contributing board wipes and sideboard hate. Green and artifacts the gathering, solitaire edition. We can't have a Modern like that anyway, with prison dead and control on life support.

As ktken postulates, Modern will probably be dead by 21, I have been betting on 22-3, unless Legacy dies.

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
Moon, Bridge and Veil aren't issues because of the decks they are in, they are issues because they are awfully designed obnoxious cards that are not fun to play with. Then the argument comes that fun is subjective but honestly it really isn't; the amount of people who want games to be interactive always vastly outnumber the few who like Solitaire. Moon and Bridge just end games on the spot. Veil is of course an interactive card, but is just way too good of a rate.
Seems to me that you are one of those Johnny big monsters who don't like to be told 'no'. Attitudes like yours are why this format has cards like Oko it that we can't deal with because people with your attitude label anything controlling that locks you out as unfun. If you are locked out by these cards you have built your deck wrong. Cards like blood moon are essential to stop non basics being rancid. Bridge stops you attacking with huge cheated creatures, for a time. Neither end the game on the spot. Neither.
Modern has horrendous problems with threats vs answers, because they catered to people who don't like answers for too long.
You can disagree with me that the cards are poorly designed, my point was mostly that your "the decks are the issue not the cards" argument was utter nonsense.

Btw the "You are the cause of Oko" insult legit made me laugh, that's how a magic the gathering religion starts

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

What happened to yesterdays banned and restrictions announcement?

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
What happened to yesterdays banned and restrictions announcement?
They're not going to do one every week, they only have the option to do them. If they aren't doing one, they're not going to release a no changes announcement. In theory, there should never again be a no changes announcement, only an announcement when something changes.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

i played in a 17 person event last night. didn't do too well. but the format seems fun for now. i'm guessing we had 15 or 16 different decks in the room.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

If people lay off urza the format could heal a bit, but honestly there's nothing stopping urza from being unfair. IMO it's only a matter of time before someone makes a new configuration that dominates. Hope to be wrong on this one though.
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
What happened to yesterdays banned and restrictions announcement?
They're not going to do one every week, they only have the option to do them. If they aren't doing one, they're not going to release a no changes announcement. In theory, there should never again be a no changes announcement, only an announcement when something changes.
Thanks for the response. That sucks. I rather have them do a 'no change announcement' every Monday at a specific hour. Means Veil of Summer is still legal which means another week I will not play Modern because there are no meaningful ways to interact with all the green-based combo decks and decks that are just splashing green for it.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
Means Veil of Summer is still legal which means another week I will not play Modern because there are no meaningful ways to interact with all the green-based combo decks and decks that are just splashing green for it.
We can always lobby to unban Mental Misstep. (I'm joking)

Or, play Painter's Servant, run your own Veil of Summers and Mystical Disputes, and make it a habit to name blue. (less joking)

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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
What happened to yesterdays banned and restrictions announcement?
They're not going to do one every week, they only have the option to do them. If they aren't doing one, they're not going to release a no changes announcement. In theory, there should never again be a no changes announcement, only an announcement when something changes.
Thanks for the response. That sucks. I rather have them do a 'no change announcement' every Monday at a specific hour. Means Veil of Summer is still legal which means another week I will not play Modern because there are no meaningful ways to interact with all the green-based combo decks and decks that are just splashing green for it.
Why would you rather have them do that? That would actually be awful. People would literally bash it every week, because they will expect to see something every week. It would create a chaotic situation of "oh again no changes how stupid blah blah".

By them not posting something every week it means that the current situation is as is, no expectations. If you don't like the current situation, as seems to be the case, then expect it to be the same very week so you can safely stay away from it. If something changes I am pretty sure Twitter/forums/reddit will explode so there is not way people will miss it.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
You can play Moonless format in Pioneer, which sounds like the Mtg you would enjoy. We aren't ever going to agree on this. Modern has been a Blood Moon format from the start, with zero issues. I don't want to argue semantics either, I have seen more Blood Moons cast than most. They rarely end the game in any sense, and rarely lock someone out unless the opponent fetches badly or they are backed up with landkill. Let us disagree on that.
There is a whole generation of Mtg players bought up on the standards of bad answers, easy access to mana and zero prison cards who believe mtg is about smashing critters and removal after critters have hit. It is not their fault, that is the Mtg they were bought up on. Every now and then one pops up on Legacy fora and asks 'what can we do about force of will?' to much amusement. As far as I am concerned they have Pioneer. Modern is not about that, never has been, if Moon and Bridge are an issue, you are just in the wrong format. Modern's at its best when it self regulates with such cards, so that we never have the embarrassment of banning Field of the dead. Moon is actually not that good vs Tron, sadly, it needs to be backed up by something, but that is an argument for better land hate, not less.
I don't see it that way at all. I don't see this as a "Blood Moon" format. If you want a format that's polarized by some cards, try Legacy where it's Brainstorm vs. Chalice of the Void. There is no deck that is missing both of those unless they're trying to kill you by turn 1-2. And Legacy is still very fun.

The best Blood Moon deck arguably, Skred, loses pretty badly to Tron as well. It's one of their worst matchups. In this day and age where Arcum's Astrolabe exists, there is no reason to be so Anti-Moon. This is coming from me, who loves to jam as many colors and good stuff as I can in a deck (love playing Elementals and Niv Mizzet right now).
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I dont think he means it as defining. Its obvious Moon does not define Modern, as anyone that has cast it enough knows it doesnt flat out 'win games' all that often.

More so, that Moon has been a part of Modern without issue for its whole life.

The issue with Modern is not Moon.
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
Moon, Bridge and Veil aren't issues because of the decks they are in, they are issues because they are awfully designed obnoxious cards that are not fun to play with. Then the argument comes that fun is subjective but honestly it really isn't; the amount of people who want games to be interactive always vastly outnumber the few who like Solitaire. Moon and Bridge just end games on the spot. Veil is of course an interactive card, but is just way too good of a rate.
Seems to me that you are one of those Johnny big monsters who don't like to be told 'no'. Attitudes like yours are why this format has cards like Oko it that we can't deal with because people with your attitude label anything controlling that locks you out as unfun. If you are locked out by these cards you have built your deck wrong. Cards like blood moon are essential to stop non basics being rancid. Bridge stops you attacking with huge cheated creatures, for a time. Neither end the game on the spot. Neither.
Modern has horrendous problems with threats vs answers, because they catered to people who don't like answers for too long.
You can disagree with me that the cards are poorly designed, my point was mostly that your "the decks are the issue not the cards" argument was utter nonsense.

Btw the "You are the cause of Oko" insult legit made me laugh, that's how a magic the gathering religion starts
Was not trying to be insulting, but it is wotc's attempt to please a certain demographic that has lead to an mtg where threats massively outweigh answers. Whether you are part of that I don't know, but the people who they are trying to please are those that can't stand being out of the game for a couple of turns, which is all moon, bridge and other similar cards do. Oko is just another example of a great planeswalker that is busted because of the pool; they won't make a cheap card that means planeswalkers don't work until the piece is gone. They have said that people don't like such cards. So it isn't "you created oko" more "you won't let us have prison piece answers to it". Whether you are part of that, I don't know, as I said, but if you think Bridge and Moon are bad cards for the environment you are who wotc are thinking about when they refuse to print prison piece preemptive answers...

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Yes, I'd surge gets what I mean. I don't mean it is defined as a blood moon format in the way Legacy is a Brainstorm format. I mean BM format in that it always exists as a consideration in the format.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Blood Moon is not defining Modern, however I never liked the card in Modern because it functioned as a 'free win button' since Blood Moon protects itself because red doesn't have enchantment hate. At least now we have Force of Negation and Vigor but in the older days there wasn't much you could do. Still don't like the card though because its way too punishing when its good.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

Blood Moon is rarely seen anymore

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Post by Mapccu » 1 year ago

Do y'all think Oko would have been banned in modern if he started at 1-2 loyalty? Would being more easily answerable by burn spells have made the card easier for the format to handle?

One of the big gripes I have with standard right now is how few answers we have to walkers and how narrow many of them are. Aside from swift end, there's the elderspell. While the elder spell has a bunch of neat rider text, it's largely irrelevant on most board states.

Generally curious what knobs they could have tuned to make the card acceptable to some of the more enfranchised players here. I didn't think oko was that devastating when I played against him personally, but his numbers were proof despite my opinion. He didn't feel any less abysmal than other strategies except he killed me over 3-4 turns instead of on the spot.

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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

Honestly, if you could at least kill Oko off the bat with your newfound elk, he wouldn't have been nearly so decidedly broken. I tend to play Devil's advocate, but even I find it hard to believe that there was never any discussion on the design team on whether Oko's loyalty after turning a creature into an elk should be low enough for the elk to kill him on the rebound, especially when said ability was a +1 ability. I didn't think much of it before, but the more it's pointed out in this forum, the more it seems intentional that there's no hard evidence as to the specifics behind Oko's development and not just WotC's usual degree of poor communication

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

After seeing Paul Cheon's and Melissa Detora's video saying sorry for Oko, Thief of Crowns, I honestly truly believe that the +1 Elk ability was supposed to be a -1. It was a typo and they allowed it through print. Obviously I have no proof of this. There are a few people I know close to R and D, but I wouldn't put them on the spot to answer this. My other friend (the Whirza) player has no shame and has asked, but there has been no answer, mostly because both of us have big mouths.

TBF,
Spoiler
Show
I don't know how close R and D employees are to areas close to them. It's entirely possible that they keep it to themselves no matter what. Another possibility is that they share among many employees, but if it is leaked, they will be fired.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by ModernDefector » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
ModernDefector wrote:
1 year ago
I'm not sure how anyone is surprised at the banmania. Now that 1.) unfun and 2.) anticipatory/preemptive bans are fair game, it's open season. Banmania is a permanent part of the format now.

You get what you deserve, Modern 🤡
I agree that unfun is now an established ban criterion, for better or worse. But where do you get anticipatory/preemptive bans? I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are referring to Opal being banned fro an upcoming synergy with Underworld Breach. This is wild speculation with zero published evidence to back it up. Modern has enough issues and skeletons in the closet already without people inventing new conspiracy theories without evidence.
I was not referring to Mox Opal.

No speculation or conspiracy theory is necessary. WotC has explicitly stated it as criteria in two recent banning announcements.
While cases can be made for each, we identified Bridge from Below as the card most likely to cause metagame imbalance again in the future. Because Bridge from Below doesn't cost mana or other resources to use and isn't reliant on being drawn naturally from the library, its power level is highly sensitive to the cards that synergize with it. As new card designs that have synergy with the graveyard are released over time, Bridge from Below is the most likely key card in the deck to become problematic again.
As new card designs are released that deal with the graveyard, discarding cards, and casting cheap spells, the power of Faithless Looting's efficient hand and graveyard manipulation continues to scale upward. Regardless of Hogaak's recent impact, Faithless Looting would be a likely eventual addition to the banned list in the near future. In order to ensure the metagame doesn't again revert to a Faithless Looting graveyard deck being dominant, we believe now is the correct time to make this change.
Anticipatory and preemptive. Stated plainly, in conjunction with other criteria.

In addition, it's naive to think that every public WotC announcement contains the entirety of their considerations. It's a bit wide-eyed to imagine that the idea that Tron would thrive post-Oko/Opal was absent from their mind, contributing to the Lattice ban in a desire to weaken it a bit. Shaving cards off of strong decks to weaken them is another intention that's been stated. The subtext of other bannings looked similarly obvious.

But we can just look at their own words from the two announcements above. Even if your deck/card is not the deck/card causing metagame problems right now, if it's deemed unfun or is predicted to cause problems in a future metagame, you now have to fear it getting the preemptive war-style axe for this Minority Report-style crime.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
Is the Heliod Ballista combo viable in modern? T3feri can help protect the combo from instant speed interaction.
It can fit pretty much anywhere, I'm brainstorming a Wx (leaning Boros atm for %$#% and giggles) with the combo since both cards do well on their own but end the game on the spot together,
sorry for late reply, but it's only today that I received the news mail from tcgplayer. There's one Heliod Ballista combo deck that got top8 in modern challenge. Diverse top 8, and surprsingly no Urza.

https://decks.tcgplayer.com/magic/deck/ ... r_01212020
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