[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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drmarkb
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Super happy for the changes. I called 3/4 of them (really believe Veil of summer should go). I am certain Modern will become a lot more interactive and better from now on. They just need to ban Veil at some time.

2020 will feature no unbans, sadly. They just don't like A+B combos, and Twin and Pod will stay legal for this year for sure.

PS: Really like Mycosynth Lattice. It's super unfun and I think this is a good reason for a banning. Had a really lengthy argument with ktkenshinx couple of years ago about that. Glad WOTC does think this is a justification for banning.
Karn lattice is an a plus b combo. One sideboard slot plus karn. No different to the a b combos involving living wish in Legacy. Not much different from pod or twin.
How can you like Twin or Pod as being fun and dislike karn lattice? If lattice plus karn made infinite critters to attack it would be the same, except that people can escape karn lattice if they have critters down, you can't escape twin or infinite pod combos unless you hold removal, which also applies to lattice of course. The only issue with karn lattice is that it is cheated on mana and that some people feel obliged to not scoop when they are locked out. It is the mana cheating that is the issue, ten mana for a might win combo is not unreasonable.
Twin can't tutor its pieces, and its combo wins on the spot. Karn tutors its piece and doesn't actually win, but instead needlessly drags the game out if the opponent chooses not to concede.
But for me it is not an annoying play pattern if one side can't play- they should scoop, they have lost- unless they can win with what is on the table, in which case there is a game and no problem with the play pattern- the same as draft when you know you have no relevant cards left in library and have to win with what is on the table. Once they can't win it is GG, unless they have infinite-ish life and will deck second (in which case the Karn player should have scooped). Legacy players, and nearly all Modern players know when to scoop.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Won't karn still get played with the sideboard cards minus lattice? I mean liquimetal coating karn is potent.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

People saying modern is in some toxic rancid state need a reality check. Standard and legacy are just as bad, if not worse. There's no point in selling your modern cards just so you can jump into some other bad format.

There's some humor articles floating around the internet that explain why all mtg formats are bad, I always have to think of those when people complain of formats

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Tomatotime wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Like. what has changed? What new decks are going to flourish as a result?

If anything, the only thing I am remotely excited about is Heliod/Ballista Twin. Maybe that's a reason to invest in Bant stuff, because that might not be a terrible package... assuming it doesn't get banned.
I think what has changed isn't really Modern at it's core (linear solitaire decks will still rein supreme until Wotc acts further), but Wotc on some level has changed. As I highlighted earlier in this thread, in this B&R Wotc has now official stated that fun is a primary metric for banning cards, this is actually incredibly substantial within the context of Modern (I assume they have already been banning via this thought process in Pioneer?).
Which is worrying as I find constructed creature combat tiresome. I get enough of that in draft. I don't mind a twin combat/dark depths "win in a turn" type thing (although I am not a huge A/B combo fan for Modern), but endless attacks and blocks are dull as hell and I get the feeling that is all they want.
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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
If we see another big tourney full of Urza that will be the final straw for those who still hope for Modern to live on, I think.
I mean, they could just ban it then. Hogaak took two tries to stay down as well. Maybe I'm a hypocrite since pre-ban I was talking about not wanting to play Modern anymore but isn't it possible to be a bit more optimistic now?
I honestly just hope for SOME positivity somewhere. On a personal level, even though I enjoy modern a ton (ok, not so much when it was all Oko or nothing), every time I read these forums I find myself less and less inclined to play. When I do play, however, I still enjoy it. I think there are a ton to be said about the mistakes and mismanagments of Wizards, but, at least for me - I don't want to speak for others - the constant flaming towards the game from the community keeps me even more down. I enjoy the game much more away from Twitter, even in metas which are not great.
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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Won't karn still get played with the sideboard cards minus lattice? I mean liquimetal coating karn is potent.
I think so too, but the instant loss potential is gone now. There's still a ton of terrifying targets for them to get.
Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
People saying modern is in some toxic rancid state need a reality check. Standard and legacy are just as bad, if not worse. There's no point in selling your modern cards just so you can jump into some other bad format.

There's some humor articles floating around the internet that explain why all mtg formats are bad, I always have to think of those when people complain of formats
Other formats being bad has little to do with Modern's issues. The general shift in design that encompasses all of mtg at the moment has also been discussed a lot in this thread. The alternative to Modern for many of us is not other formats, but just other games entirely
Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
If we see another big tourney full of Urza that will be the final straw for those who still hope for Modern to live on, I think.
I mean, they could just ban it then. Hogaak took two tries to stay down as well. Maybe I'm a hypocrite since pre-ban I was talking about not wanting to play Modern anymore but isn't it possible to be a bit more optimistic now?
I honestly just hope for SOME positivity somewhere. On a personal level, even though I enjoy modern a ton (ok, not so much when it was all Oko or nothing), every time I read these forums I find myself less and less inclined to play. When I do play, however, I still enjoy it. I think there are a ton to be said about the mistakes and mismanagments of Wizards, but, at least for me - I don't want to speak for others - the constant flaming towards the game from the community keeps me even more down. I enjoy the game much more away from Twitter, even in metas which are not great.
I think it's completely fair to out frustration when there's clear issues with the format that are not being addressed. But when steps are made in the right direction, it should also be celebrated. Maybe in a month it turns out Urza is still oppressive, or some card from Theros breaks Modern, but we'll see about that then. For now I'm excited to go to FNM again.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

Why didn't they make karn the great creator a white card? Like make it cost 2 colorless and 2 white. Seems like a white card. Sort of. And then tron wouldn't get to abuse it as much

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
People saying modern is in some toxic rancid state need a reality check. Standard and legacy are just as bad, if not worse. There's no point in selling your modern cards just so you can jump into some other bad format.

There's some humor articles floating around the internet that explain why all mtg formats are bad, I always have to think of those when people complain of formats
I'm selling all, commons, land's, all of it, but 1 EDH deck. Modern has been fundamentally flawed for years, and broken more than its been great.

You can think whatever you want, but Wizards failed in 2019, and I'm not interested in how long it takes to fix it.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago


I mean, they could just ban it then. Hogaak took two tries to stay down as well. Maybe I'm a hypocrite since pre-ban I was talking about not wanting to play Modern anymore but isn't it possible to be a bit more optimistic now?
I honestly just hope for SOME positivity somewhere. On a personal level, even though I enjoy modern a ton (ok, not so much when it was all Oko or nothing), every time I read these forums I find myself less and less inclined to play. When I do play, however, I still enjoy it. I think there are a ton to be said about the mistakes and mismanagments of Wizards, but, at least for me - I don't want to speak for others - the constant flaming towards the game from the community keeps me even more down. I enjoy the game much more away from Twitter, even in metas which are not great.
I think it's completely fair to out frustration when there's clear issues with the format that are not being addressed. But when steps are made in the right direction, it should also be celebrated. Maybe in a month it turns out Urza is still oppressive, or some card from Theros breaks Modern, but we'll see about that then. For now I'm excited to go to FNM again.
many have a frustration of some sort, so negative energy is normal in this thread. But I also stay in 3 other forums where the mood is happier, so things are balanced and the negativity of this place does not get to me. Anyway, speaking of things to celebrate... about the recent bans, it makes me happy that the threat of lattice lock out is finally gone. Yeah, there are still some deadly things that Ktgc can fetch but no more lattice is a degree of relief. Tron is a common deck in my meta, so I'm thankful for the nerf on it's win con.
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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

As Reid Duke said on Twitter, and GK quoted above, bans will always disappoint some people and make others happy. Wizards cannot and should not try to make everyone happy with a ban decision. That's bad leadership and bad management which results in bad decisions. I see some negativity in this thread, which must be both expected in that it is inevitable, and accepted in that we shouldn't try to change everyone's minds about the impact of a ban decision. The overall tone in this thread, and certainly across the other MTG communities I participate in, has been largely positive and overwhelmingly optimistic. It has been positive in that players seem to believe these were good changes for Modern, even if they might not have gone far enough. But more importantly, it has been optimistic in that it signals Wizards' willingness to make tough decisions to promote format health. Even if Modern still has unhealthy play patterns and decks, this new aggressive banning posture gives players some confidence Wizards will act.

In that spirit, we can't stop with these bans alone. There is still a lot of work to be done between today and the March GP. An unban or more would be nice, but the biggest priorities need to be a) demanding a Wizards statement on Modern's direction and trajectory, and b) establishing a more regular point of contact/communication structure for Wizards to update us about Modern. "Fixing Modern" articles will address both, and I'll have updated my first article in that series soon to reflect Monday's inspired decisions.

I also want to emphasize that Wizards did not just fail Modern in 2019, a sentiment idsurge explicitly stated but others are definitely feeling. Wizards failed every major competitive format in 2019 except Pioneer. This even includes Vintage, Legacy, and Pauper, three formats that are generally more settled. It also includes attempts by Wizards to destroy Historic before it even got off the ground, and ongoing nickel-and-diming microtransaction greed around Brawl on Arena. Obviously, Standard and Modern got hit hard too. Pioneer was only spared because Wizards is pushing the format very hard and their ground-up banlist approach gave it breathing room from the dangerous pressures that hit other formats. I'm willing to give Wizards a second chance at format management after the multi-format disaster of 2019. Incidentally, 2020 is Modern's last chance to fix its problems before Pioneer completely takes over, so that deadline makes sense for multiple reasons. And again, within 2020, the most important part of the deadline is January through March; Wizards has a lot of important work to do in the next months leading up to the Modern GP. If that work is not done to set the GP up for success, they might be poorly-attended and the mood might sour. If that happens and if the Pioneer GP thereafter are awesome, Modern will be on life support.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
But more importantly, it has been optimistic in that it signals Wizards' willingness to make tough decisions to promote format health. Even if Modern still has unhealthy play patterns and decks, this new aggressive banning posture gives players some confidence Wizards will act.
What was was tough about this though?

Oko? Easiest ban target I've ever (literally) seen. Up there with Eldrazi, and Hogaak, and it didnt need old cards to break it, or be printed in a 'custom' set. This was a Standard card.

Opal? See: Faithless Looting. Everyone has understood that Opal has been a target for almost half a decade. Just a matter of time. I dont like it, but this isnt courageous.

Lattice? Lol. Not hard at all. The community hates tron to the point where 'F Tron' is an understood meme. The majority of the format's remaining players will not lament its loss. Funny thing is, even as I am blocked on Twitter by Tron diehards, I still dont want their deck to die!
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
I'm willing to give Wizards a second chance at format management after the multi-format disaster of 2019. Incidentally, 2020 is Modern's last chance to fix its problems before Pioneer completely takes over, so that deadline makes sense for multiple reasons. And again, within 2020, the most important part of the deadline is January through March; Wizards has a lot of important work to do in the next months leading up to the Modern GP. If that work is not done to set the GP up for success, they might be poorly-attended and the mood might sour. If that happens and if the Pioneer GP thereafter are awesome, Modern will be on life support.
How long has it been man? I just dont got it anymore. Nobody is going to convince me that this format has been healthy/good, for any extended period of time. When the 'intelligence community' of article writers/twitter bots tries to tell me that GDS is a 'fair deck' and that UR Phoenix is 'midrange', the writing is on the wall. The format is twisted. It's not been in a functional state for years. Its not about meta rotation, its not about the ebb and flow of decks in and out of popularity and relevance.

Its whats busted now, how long can it stay as the 'hidden best deck' and how long does it take for the inbred SCG meta to come to the same understanding, push it, and get it to explode into the general consciousness, and THEN how long until Wizards makes the ban call, and how many GP's are ruined along the way.

Tell me thats not the recurring pattern.
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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

How is anything wizards did a failure? They said modern horizons sold well. Sales are good overall. Of course the format is bad, but I don't expect anything different out of wizards than I would konami or bushiroad. Just keep playing old decks while you feel they still have legs.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

modern has never had good combo decks, which is necessary for good metagames. It lets jund beat up on it while pushing out big mana decks. Twin functioned as a combo deck, as did seething song storm. but those are gone now. amulet is more a ramp/grindy deck now.

and the yawgmoth deck looks cool
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Opal? See: Faithless Looting. Everyone has understood that Opal has been a target for almost half a decade. Just a matter of time. I dont like it, but this isnt courageous.
courageous, I think because it's a card that cost a ton of money. People are more likely to be enraged not being able to use anymore their 70 dollar opal, as compared to gaak players not being able to use anymore their 6 dollar Hogaak. This reminds me... the guy who bought my opal set had approximately three years to enjoy his investment.. assuming he did not sell them off at some point after he got them from me in 2017.
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Post by CurdBros » 1 year ago

It looks like early indications (from MTGO streams of Eli Kassis and Sam Black's discord) is that the Urza deck has been changed over to Temur with mystic sanctuary, archmage's charm, Wrenn and Six, Emry, Lurker of the Loch, and Mox Amber, It remains to be seen if this is the core of the Urza deck that will become the final iteration, but it's interesting that one broken planeswalker and free artifact was replace with another broken planeswalker and free artifact. The deck looked extremely strong in the game I saw Eli Kassis play with it. With that said, I think this version will be easier to interact with and not as explosive because amber is not nearly as explosive as mox opal. It will play a more grindy late game control role which could end up being extremely fine for modern. Rather than taking over mid game with and early Oko and invalidating everything the opponent does, it accrues value while countering spells. It remains to be seen if this version will still be too powerful for modern, but I am hoping it is not. Veil still gives UG decks a leg up in control mirrors.

Even though I knew that the Urza decks would just go with mox amber, I am very excited about modern and I am also extremely optimistic about modern's future. I think having an Urza deck in the meta, especially if it's more control oriented, is not a bad thing. I also think WOTC would be much more open to banning OUAT and especially Veil quickly now that they have showed the ability to ban multiple things and now that they are doing bans randomly rather than letting things fester for a long time. I am a modern lifer so I am nearly always optimistic about modern's future, but I am much happier today than I was last week.

I will also say of the modern streams I have been watching I have seen a very wide variety of decks being played which is awesome to see. There has also been some general excitement from the streamers and chat alike. I have been watching mostly aspiringspike.

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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

It would be pretty tragic if after all this effort to get bans made, Urza decks simply slot in Mox Amber to keep their gold fish, or for that manner, I wonder if Mox Tantalite will ever come into the Modern meta.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
How is anything wizards did a failure? They said modern horizons sold well. Sales are good overall. Of course the format is bad, but I don't expect anything different out of wizards than I would konami or bushiroad. Just keep playing old decks while you feel they still have legs.
You aren't Colt from MTGS are you?

Sales are good because the vast majority of Magic players are not hardcore at all, people play Limited (lol) and you have to crack packs.

2019 was an utter failure from developmental balance perspectives, in search of the mighty $$$.

Other companies have learned the same lessons in the past, an I see Wizards going down this road. You sacrifice the integrity of the game from a competitive POV, at your own risk.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
This new Yawgmoth, Thran Physician - Geralf's Messenger ticks all the boxes for being a Tier 1 modern deck.
I am surprised it took this long to get rolling, I bought all the parts when Yawg spoiled, but I just cannot play a Modern BG deck, I need more stack/instant stuff.
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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

Can emry cheat mox tantalite into play from graveyard?

and no, im not colt but that name sounds familiar. what was colt saying?
you don't like bg/x stuff? it's fun. i like dark confidant myself. he's kind of faded out though

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Exactly what I was expecting is happening. W6 is taking over and Emyr/Urza with Mox Amber. Urza is such a busted card it hardy matters what you play around him.

Oko out, T3feri in
Cryptics out, Spell Queller in
white also gives other options like PtE, strong SB cards.

or

Mox Opal out, Mox Amber in
Oko out, Jeskai Ascendancy in
can also add T3feri to protect the combo

or

4c midrange control list with Wrenn.

Any of these iterations is still the best deck by miles.

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

Does Yawg + Geralf's Messenger go infinite? Am I interpreting this wrong?

Sac Messenger, Undying on the stack, you need to choose a target with Yawgmoth as part of the resolution... can't choose Messenger since it's still in the graveyard?

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
Does Yawg + Geralf's Messenger go infinite? Am I interpreting this wrong?

Sac Messenger, Undying on the stack, you need to choose a target with Yawgmoth as part of the resolution... can't choose Messenger since it's still in the graveyard?
You need another creature, but yes, there is an infinite loop in there as you move around the -1/-1 to cancel out the undying.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Do you want my big prediction for the modern format?
It's a good deck but not that good, new decks often win just by being unusual. I'm interested in building it. I doubt it's going to be tier 1, but it should be a solid contributor to the format.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I choose to listen to the optimistic voices instead and believe the format is one veil ban away from being a great one.
Selective listening and reading is a recipe for disaster, both in and outside the game.

Yawgmoth deck is another flavor of creature combos like Druid-Vizier, nothing new. It'll end up being a good T2-T1.5 contender.

Who would've thought that Opal wasn't the correct card to cut from Urza decks... As long as Astrolabe exists 4-5c Urza decks will have an almost perfect nigh painless manabase.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

CurdBros wrote:
1 year ago
It remains to be seen if this is the core of the Urza deck that will become the final iteration, but it's interesting that one broken planeswalker and free artifact was replace with another broken planeswalker and free artifact.
Prior to the recent Oko nonsense, Urza was already starting to adopt Mox Amber over Mox Opal. The reason being that it works a little bit better with Emry. This is one of the reasons that I felt Astrolabe needs to go. I can agree that Mox Opal probably needed to go sooner or later anyways, I'm sad to see Affinity die, but I can't really argue against it. If aimed solely at Urza though, it was the wrong card.

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