[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Archanz wrote:
1 year ago
This Is my personal opinioni, but since 2015 weve never been able ti see It because of the many bans.
Because the meta has been unable to adjust, because of a complete and utter disregard for balance and design from Wizards.

Like, blame Wizards, its not bans that are the issue. Its everything since BFZ has sucked utterly from a perspective of balanced, game play and has required bans.

Modern is ill. Has been for a long time.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
As I continue to stew about this game, its a few things that really kill me.

1. This format is not the Modern 'we' (aka many of us here) grew up with, and that is ultimately just unfortunate as it WAS the best format in the game.
What's really interesting is that I'll bet the vast majority of people who play Modern today likely only ever existed in a format defined by degenerate nonsense. The identity of Jund, Tron, Twin, Pod, Burn, Affinity, Infect is dead, and has been dead for years. It seems as time goes on, each piece continues to fall into irrelevance, if not banned outright. Modern is now a format where if you are not playing free spells, cheating on mana costs, or massively accelerating, you are choosing to play an objectively weaker strategy. You put yourself at a disadvantage against nearly everything at the top of the format.

And the ultimate irony is that these bans change almost none of that. Amulet Titan, which escaped unharmed, is an amazingly powerful deck, capable of stupidly fast draws and a nigh-unbeatable late game. Urza is still an amazingly powerful deck, and still capable of fast draws with good late game. Tron losing Lattice just means that they only have all the other busted good threats they play considerably ahead of curve. The good decks are still good, the bad decks are still bad.

Ironically, one of the decks I was interested in moving into (Bant Snowblade deck) was only really good because of Oko, and will likely fall back to irrelevance.

I am saddened at the realization of how kind of meaningless this ban announcement is. At least it's done nothing to encourage me to sleeve something up and actually go to an FNM any time soon.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Changes are in the right direction. We don't need how certain people dislike the format, before they even see how things going to go. Please give it time. I think Modern is going to be in a good spot.
Some of us have called how the format would go, and been right, for a long time. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to know whats going to take over.

Enjoy the format all you like, if I remember you are on Amulet right now, so you are about to enter a gold age, but some of us know whats up.

I'm packing things away and shipping off to Card Kingdom. :p
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Well, yeah, if you don't like it, I understand. I play many decks, Amulet is my secret love since many years now, GDS also.

The deck is fascinating to play with, always solving a puzzle. I don't want to enter any gold era, to be honest. I just want my deck to be tier 2 and exist there. That's why I also wanted Veil of Summer in this announcement.

But quite honestly, Modern should be heading into a better way now. Let's not get ahead of ourselves and see where we go.
Amulet lost nothing in this announcement, and will likely be the best in the format (or still remain tied with Urza anyway). And with Field of the Dead, has a nearly unstoppable late game, even if you deal with all their Titans. Never mind that they are packed with super efficient digging and lots of tutors, massive mana acceleration, and easy access to anti-counter magic before even mentioning 1 mana Cryptic Command.

I could imagine if I played Amulet Titan, I would feel great about Modern too.

As I said, if you aren't playing free spells, cheating mana, or massively accelerating mana, you're just asking to lose matches in Modern.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Just be careful with those Ashioks, or Blood Moons please. Really don't want BM to be such a good metacall xD
No good, meaningful decks are playing Blood Moon and Ashiok can be attacked. I have no sympathy for what is effectively best deck in the format; head and shoulders above anything I have touched for nearly a year. :laugh: :party: :woozy:

Literally nothing seems enticing to actually play Modern these days. Looking over the meta, there's basically Urza variants, Tron variants, Titan variants, and various flavors of linear aggro and disruptive aggro. This ban announcement doesn't change that whatsoever.

As I mentioned, the only thing that slightly intrigued me (Bant Stoneblade) was heavily propped up by Broko, and is probably not worth investing in (Lands and Hierarchs clock in above $500) with a key piece gone.

I can't even comfortably invest in Urza since who knows if he'll get the Hogaak treatment and remain stupidly good until banned again?

Big ol' fat MEH.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Let the positive voices be heard also. It's really tiring to hear "Modern is gonna suck" on day 0 in this brand, new exciting Modern.
Like. what has changed? What new decks are going to flourish as a result?

If anything, the only thing I am remotely excited about is Heliod/Ballista Twin. Maybe that's a reason to invest in Bant stuff, because that might not be a terrible package... assuming it doesn't get banned.

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Post by Trazaeth » 1 year ago

I don't know if heliod ballista twin is that great tbh. However, it may be a good gotcha in a tempo style bant/uw aggro deck that may win on the combo as an afterthought. Nothing in this format changed as far as big mana is concerned. Maybe someday there will be major changes.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Yeah, how has tron survived?
Seriously. 7 mana t3,multiple versions, gets better over time, only kept in check by fast combo.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Super happy for the changes. I called 3/4 of them (really believe Veil of summer should go). I am certain Modern will become a lot more interactive and better from now on. They just need to ban Veil at some time.

2020 will feature no unbans, sadly. They just don't like A+B combos, and Twin and Pod will stay legal for this year for sure.

PS: Really like Mycosynth Lattice. It's super unfun and I think this is a good reason for a banning. Had a really lengthy argument with ktkenshinx couple of years ago about that. Glad WOTC does think this is a justification for banning.
Karn lattice is an a plus b combo. One sideboard slot plus karn. No different to the a b combos involving living wish in Legacy. Not much different from pod or twin.
How can you like Twin or Pod as being fun and dislike karn lattice? If lattice plus karn made infinite critters to attack it would be the same, except that people can escape karn lattice if they have critters down, you can't escape twin or infinite pod combos unless you hold removal, which also applies to lattice of course. The only issue with karn lattice is that it is cheated on mana and that some people feel obliged to not scoop when they are locked out. It is the mana cheating that is the issue, ten mana for a might win combo is not unreasonable.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Super happy for the changes. I called 3/4 of them (really believe Veil of summer should go). I am certain Modern will become a lot more interactive and better from now on. They just need to ban Veil at some time.

2020 will feature no unbans, sadly. They just don't like A+B combos, and Twin and Pod will stay legal for this year for sure.

PS: Really like Mycosynth Lattice. It's super unfun and I think this is a good reason for a banning. Had a really lengthy argument with ktkenshinx couple of years ago about that. Glad WOTC does think this is a justification for banning.
Karn lattice is an a plus b combo. One sideboard slot plus karn. No different to the a b combos involving living wish in Legacy. Not much different from pod or twin.
How can you like Twin or Pod as being fun and dislike karn lattice? If lattice plus karn made infinite critters to attack it would be the same, except that people can escape karn lattice if they have critters down, you can't escape twin or infinite pod combos unless you hold removal, which also applies to lattice of course. The only issue with karn lattice is that it is cheated on mana and that some people feel obliged to not scoop when they are locked out. It is the mana cheating that is the issue, ten mana for a might win combo is not unreasonable.
Twin can't tutor its pieces, and its combo wins on the spot. Karn tutors its piece and doesn't actually win, but instead needlessly drags the game out if the opponent chooses not to concede.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Twin can't tutor its pieces, and its combo wins on the spot. Karn tutors its piece and doesn't actually win, but instead needlessly drags the game out if the opponent chooses not to concede.
When you can't play ANY spells and have a 6/6 attacking you, not conceding sounds like a "you" problem (royal you, not personal), not the combo's problem. Similar to Opponents not conceding to Twin on MODO.

For Heliod/Balista deck, my firts thought was a mix of UW with SFM to fetch the new Spear and/or Batterskull, Trinket Mage etc. and maybe try and do a more midrangey Urza variant with beatdown as plan B. I doubt it'll work, but it never stopped me from playing %$#% brews for fun.

Also, [mention]gkourou[/mention], Modern hasn't changed, combo/big mana decks still hide behind Veil to thwart interaction and the only way to combat them is by racing, so it's still the same Modern as last week's.


[mention]drmarkb[/mention], Karn takes (took?) up around 5-6 sideboard slots, not 1. While it increased game 1 effectiveness and efficiency, it hurt the room for non-artifact answers. The cards surrounding the package mitigated this weakness, but there were instances where it hurt.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Twin can't tutor its pieces, and its combo wins on the spot. Karn tutors its piece and doesn't actually win, but instead needlessly drags the game out if the opponent chooses not to concede.
When you can't play ANY spells and have a 6/6 attacking you, not conceding sounds like a "you" problem (royal you, not personal), not the combo's problem. Similar to Opponents not conceding to Twin on MODO.
I personally couldn't care less. I play so little Modern these days, I can't even remember ever actually going up against it. But it doesn't win, it just prevents you from doing anything. And if the opponent has a creature, it gives this fleeting sense of hope. Just feelbads all around and super horrid design on the part of Karn. I hate the idea of the card more than ever actually playing against it because it's so rare that I've actually seen it. It's also probably why I'm not at all moved by its banning.
For Heliod/Balista deck, my firts thought was a mix of UW with SFM to fetch the new Spear and/or Batterskull, Trinket Mage etc. and maybe try and do a more midrangey Urza variant with beatdown as plan B. I doubt it'll work, but it never stopped me from playing %$#% brews for fun.
I'm personally going to look at the Bant Snowblade lists and try something there. Heirarchs and lands are cheap online, and it seems a mix of SFM, quellers, T3feri/Jace, and Ballista/Heliod with mana dorks, digging tools like Once Upon a Time, protection of Force and Veil, and Path as primary removal? ... could be not terrible! Dunno. I have all the pieces needed except green mana and the new combo. Ballista and Heliod will likely prove expensive, but the those pieces are all cheap online, and I have digital Mistys already.

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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Like. what has changed? What new decks are going to flourish as a result?

If anything, the only thing I am remotely excited about is Heliod/Ballista Twin. Maybe that's a reason to invest in Bant stuff, because that might not be a terrible package... assuming it doesn't get banned.
I think what has changed isn't really Modern at it's core (linear solitaire decks will still rein supreme until Wotc acts further), but Wotc on some level has changed. As I highlighted earlier in this thread, in this B&R Wotc has now official stated that fun is a primary metric for banning cards, this is actually incredibly substantial within the context of Modern (I assume they have already been banning via this thought process in Pioneer?).

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

After the smoke from the bans have cleared. Looks like Amulet Titan and Urza are both still strong.

Oko finally gone here. What planeswalker will be next widely used to replace him?
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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

Big day for Modern! Obviously, I'm pretty excited about the changes and think Wizards was on the money with all three. I've already given my rationale for why all three of those cards needed banning and Wizards added in their own plus data; not much more to say except "job well done!" I do not, however, believe Wizards is done with bans. Veil and OUaT are significant threats to Modern health, especially Veil, and one or both need to go. I would also settle for a Preordain unban if we think green can have both Stirrings and OUaT, but if Preordain isn't on the menu, then OUaT needs to go.

There is also a huge watchlist of cards I think Wizards needs to scrutinize in the coming months, many of which represent slight upgrades to borderline decks that could be removed without hurting their core identities. See stuff like T3feri, Creeping Chill, Field, Emry, Scale Up, Nature's Claim, Force of Vigor, and a host of other fringe stuff that doesn't really contribute to a deck's identity but absolutely pushes the deck to potentially problematic levels. I have been anti-ban for a long time, but with Pioneer's pressures and 2019's design failures, the Modern community needs a format it can be excited about. If this means banning cards at the fringes of decks, I'm willing to do that to save Modern.

Beyond bans, Wizards also needs to unban at least a few things to revitalize format interest. I'm even open to so-called "trial unbans" at this point, whether they are game-wide, MTGO-only, event-only, etc. These are just the kind of actions which shows players Wizards is trying to keep the format interesting and engaging. Wizards also MUST release some kind of statement on Modern. I fully intend to launch the Fixing Modern series this week or next week once the banlist update dust has settled. Who knows; maybe Wizards has a companion piece they are publishing this week. That update will keep player confidence high and put us in a really good spot going into the January->March period leading into the Modern GP.

Finally, for people who are still pessimistic about the format, I strongly encourage you to be more optimistic. Wizards has CLEARLY signaled a new approach to format management where they aggressively ban problematic cards. 2019 and 2020 had more bans across formats in a 12 month stretch than any 4-5 year period in history. Maybe longer! I haven't crunched the numbers but I really think it was a completely unprecedented period of bans for any contemporary format outside of banlist creation for new formats. If something else creates Modern problems, Wizards will hit it hard. As long as they continue to primarily aim at targets like Lattice and Oko that do not define deck identities, this allows people to keep their beloved strategies while also allowing Wizards to curate the format. It's a win-win if managed correctly.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
After the smoke from the bans have cleared. Looks like Amulet Titan and Urza are both still strong.

Oko finally gone here. What planeswalker will be next widely used to replace him?
Nothing. You dont replace one of the most busted cards ever printed.
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Post by Lear_the_cat » 1 year ago

Why do you think people will wait another year for a minor changes?
Modern was bad for several years (but sometimes acceptable) and you think there will be another year for Wizards to understand simple things?
Why should player wait to format become healthy? There're a lot of other games more balanced and interesting then Magic, hec, even magic has alternative in Pioneer. There's no chance Modern will survive with current ban policy. It will become in the end a bad Legacy full of combos and linear decks if it's not already at this.

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

I'm cautiously optimistic. I don't know where the meta is going to go, but this feels like a Modern I want to play again. There are still a bunch of problems with the format, but at the end of the day Modern is the home of the cards I enjoy playing like Lightning Bolt and Cryptic Command, so I'll put up with a lot if I get to play those cards.

I do hope we do not have to wait long for the next update; if we're still playing with Veil of Summer in half a year I'd be dissatisfied. I'm pretty certain Veil of Summer and Arcum's Astrolabe are eventually going to get the Gitaxian Probe treatment of being banned in every single format.

A shakeup unban would also be appreciated. There's always Pod and Twin of course, and I've seen a lot of people talk about the artifact lands.
Although I'm not certain that that would be safe, throwing the affinity refugees a bone might be nice.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

What I'm most surprised about is Veil of Summer did not get banned.
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Post by MashedPotato » 1 year ago

I am looking forward to going down to my LGS and picking up a Mox Opal or two for my Commander decks (Slivers need somes more colour fixing and Boros is just bad)

With that said, I am also looking forward to going back down to LGS with some Esper Control and being able to have a proper game, even with Veil of Summer in the field. Playing against any deck running green, this was the biggest problem at my local, unable to counter anything and having both colours it hits has been painful, hopefully this improves this week if not next. However, most guys at the LGS just play whatever their pet deck is so it doesnt affect me to much, but having Veil counter a critical removal or counter makes it to hard, I mean one mana for draw and counter is silly, considering I have to pay 1UUU for Cryptic for same value.

All that said, I support the bans annoucned, as they don't affect my local to much. You only really know what to do with what data you are given. Like any statistic, you can manipulate it with what you have available. Local level, IDC, online I play pauper (or arena, however putrid the format is) but I am keen to keep an eye on this thread moving forward
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

I am not an Urza player, so I ask this to the forum: Is Urza actually dead now with these bans?
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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
I am not an Urza player, so I ask this to the forum: Is Urza actually dead now with these bans?
Not an Urza player myself, but both previous iterations of the deck, as well as my assessment of how the deck could function without Opal (although apparently I am unwise according to people in this forum so take it as you will), makes me believe that it will still be playable and highly competitive. Maybe they will go back to the Thopter/Sword combo more heavily, but Urza is still an extremely powerful card, whether you land it on T3 or T4.
Also, astrolabe remaining legal means that the deck will likely stick to it's Snow theme. It is possible that it will shift back to Grixis Whirza or to jeskai Whirza if people find that it's worth it running Goblin Engineer alongside Emry (I have seen some people suggesting such lists).
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Post by izzetmage » 1 year ago

I'd like Punishing Fire to come back. It seems tame compared to recurring Engineered Explosives.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

If we see another big tourney full of Urza that will be the final straw for those who still hope for Modern to live on, I think.
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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
If we see another big tourney full of Urza that will be the final straw for those who still hope for Modern to live on, I think.
I mean, they could just ban it then. Hogaak took two tries to stay down as well. Maybe I'm a hypocrite since pre-ban I was talking about not wanting to play Modern anymore but isn't it possible to be a bit more optimistic now?

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