[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Humans, Merfolk, Elves, all annoying.

If Jund vs Blue Moon (oh wait, is Blood Moon Annoying?) is the bar, then Modern will not survive.
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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Amalgam wrote:
1 year ago
I think one thing people seem to also forget is there is also crowds in the game that enjoy unfair decks that people here consider problematic as they don't interact. It's quite easy to say we should remove 3-4 different decks from modern but please don't forget about the people who actually enjoy these style of decks especially when they aren't pushing new boundaries. For example when people in these threads were pushing with Neoform to be banned because they didn't like the deck when in fact it has a subpar winrate and some people bought in because they enjoy that playstyle. What you consider problematic for other people is why they enjoy the game and outright killing 3-4 decks will make other people leave the game/format too
I played Neoform and I think that it should have a card banned. In fact, right now may be a solid time to get back to the deck, as Force of Negation has really died down. Turn 1 Thoughtseize and Metallic Rebuke seem to be the only cards holding this deck down.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
If we are going to ban out all the annoying decks, why even play Modern?

What cards are you looking to play? What decks? Why would you not simply play Standard or now Pioneer?

What is worth saving in this format?
Thank you! Modern is the "annoying deck" format. What do you want to play in Modern if you don't want to play an annoying deck - Little Kid vs. UB Control? Any current deck with Oko is annoying (no explanation needed pls). Jund is annoying. Tron is annoying. Burn is annoying. Bogles is annoying. You best believe Amulet is annoying. Same for Titanshift, especially with a possible turn 3 Scapeshift for lethal coming after Return to Theros. 8 Rack is annoying. I dare someone to list a single deck, even if it's Tier 3 or below that is NOT annoying. Even decks that lose a lot are annoying.

robertleva - Pioneer is healthy? Pioneer is basically Frontier with 34 cards banned. 80% of the meta is Aggro and 10% is UW Control. This format is just barely deeper than Standard.

*Here is something for people who hate Tron so much. Here are the decks I play that beat Tron.
1. Titanshift.
2. GR Breach.
3. Amulet Titan.
4. Neobrand

Here are the decks that I play that 50/50 it.
1. Devoted Druid combo
2. Sultai Urza
3. Elementals
4. Elves
5. Grixis Shadow

Here's a deck that I hate that stooooooooooooooooomps it - Infect. Ad Nauseam and Storm do worse now that Karn, the Great Creator is around, but I'm pretty sure that it's still favored for them.
I mean Neoform loses to itself most of the time and is a generally bad deck with or without Force of Negation being played. Unfair decks are allowed to exist and get results and are a part of any non rotating format. People can enjoy different flavors of decks even if you don't like them and modern has had them from the start. A reset wouldn't change this and Pioneer will eventually get them too even if it is only aggro decks right now.
I don't think we have any right to deny someone who enjoys his scapeshift deck or another person who enjoys his Amulet titan deck as long as they aren't putting up oppressive numbers
Last edited by Amalgam 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Amalgam wrote:
1 year ago
I think one thing people seem to also forget is there is also crowds in the game that enjoy unfair decks that people here consider problematic as they don't interact. It's quite easy to say we should remove 3-4 different decks from modern but please don't forget about the people who actually enjoy these style of decks especially when they aren't pushing new boundaries. For example when people in these threads were pushing with Neoform to be banned because they didn't like the deck when in fact it has a subpar winrate and some people bought in because they enjoy that playstyle. What you consider problematic for other people is why they enjoy the game and outright killing 3-4 decks will make other people leave the game/format too
This is a fair point. In which case, if we allow the unfair strategies a lot of stuff can come off the ban list- as long as we don't then ban urza, veil and oko. Let the format be full of broken uninteractive decks but all means, and you would have to print a lot of hateful stuff like Port, Wastelands, Cursed totems, a Cursed Planseswalker totem etc. The problem is back to the one I described earlier- what is Modern for- everyone wants different things.

If I was in charge completely with no need to do anything other than design the format for myself, I would be giving different answers to many I have given in previous posts because I would be printing cards like Council's Judgement, E tutors, Swords, Wasteland, Force, Ancient Tombs various rector and humility effects, karakas, unbanning Jittes etc and printing utility lands like Maze of Ith, and banning very little beyond astrolabe, Blazing Shoal, Cruise and a few select others like maybe Dark Depths. At that point you can all have your Trons, Twins, Okos, Urzas and Pods, Green Sun's etc. But then we would be playing Legacy lite, legacy without Duals, Chains, Brainstorm and a few other key cards like Show and tell that don't exist in the Modern time frame. It would effectively be a different format. If people like broken or controlling stuff there would be plenty of choices. Midrange fans would never get a look in. But in seriousness, they won't re-invent Modern.
Last edited by drmarkb 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
That's the point, we have no idea what could emerge if we had all these damn troll decks gone. Something healthy the way Pioneer is right now presumably. At this point what do we have to lose? Might as well take an axe to the format now and try to salvage the few remaining years. As I said before, IF we could some how create a fun playing field of decks and keep the troll decks out of the format for a good long time maybe there could be some long term life here...
I mean, sure, but thats a massive hypothetical. Could be an interesting thought exercise, but then you would have let me know what you figure just needs to die, and how to kill it, before we can start to think of what could bubble up out of the aftermath.

As to Pioneer, this is what I see.

Red Aggro
Black Aggro
Green Ramp (Big Mana)
UW Control (Control)
UR Phoenix (Combo/Aggro?)
Lotus Storm (Combo)
Green Aggro
Dredge Aggro
Ensoul (Artifact Aggro)

I mean, yeah. What has Magic been for years? Creature based. What has been pushed? Creatures. What will any new format default to? Aggro. We see this after every ban/rotation as well.

It will remain Aggro heavy until GP's start showing what is 'real'.
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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
That's the point, we have no idea what could emerge if we had all these damn troll decks gone. Something healthy the way Pioneer is right now presumably. At this point what do we have to lose? Might as well take an axe to the format now and try to salvage the few remaining years. As I said before, IF we could some how create a fun playing field of decks and keep the troll decks out of the format for a good long time maybe there could be some long term life here...
I mean, sure, but thats a massive hypothetical. Could be an interesting thought exercise, but then you would have let me know what you figure just needs to die, and how to kill it, before we can start to think of what could bubble up out of the aftermath.

As to Pioneer, this is what I see.

Red Aggro
Black Aggro
Green Ramp (Big Mana)
UW Control (Control)
UR Phoenix (Combo/Aggro?)
Lotus Storm (Combo)
Green Aggro
Dredge Aggro
Ensoul (Artifact Aggro)

I mean, yeah. What has Magic been for years? Creature based. What has been pushed? Creatures. What will any new format default to? Aggro. We see this after every ban/rotation as well.

It will remain Aggro heavy until GP's start showing what is 'real'.
Aggro is big in pioneer precisely because their is no answers, why even bother playing a slower midrange deck when you just get run over by aggro deck X because his threats are more efficient than your answers to them. Heck why even bother playing a reactive deck at all in this scenario

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

And yet, there are some answers, they are just concentrated in very narrow colors. White sucks. It really really does as anything but a support color. Red has TONS of removal, but they keep pushing the T values on creatures for no real reason other than to satisfy the Timmy.

If the only answers you need are 'kill creatures'. I think the format can swing back.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Amalgam wrote:
1 year ago
I mean Neoform loses to itself most of the time and is a generally bad deck with or without Force of Negation being played. Unfair decks are allowed to exist and get results and are a part of any non rotating format. People can enjoy different flavors of decks even if you don't like them and modern has had them from the start. A reset wouldn't change this and Pioneer will eventually get them too even if it is only aggro decks right now.
I don't think we have any right to deny someone who enjoys his scapeshift deck or another person who enjoys his Amulet titan deck as long as they aren't putting up oppressive numbers
This is what people want you to believe. Finalnub has statistics that show something like 30% winning by turn 2. While his winning percentage isn't obscene with the deck, this right here is unacceptable. KCI and Summer Bloom Titan decks also did not have insane winning percentages. If you play MTGO, you can hit him up there or contact him via facebook. He is very friendly and will share those stats with anybody. Pros don't enjoy the deck because when you lose, you LOSE. The game is not close. But then there are the games where your opponent had a hand that beats any deck in the format, but you went first and killed them on turn 1.

For outsiders to the deck, they really have no clue of the deck. They just think that Once Upon a Time, Summoner's Pact, Allosaurus Rider, Neoform, and Eldritch Evolution are not enough to find a win for the deck.
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
if you face Urza every tournament. Then maybe build an effective sideboard against the deck?
I don't sayed I loose allways versus them. Since they cutted bridge I am succesfull. Last 2 matches I won. But man, its sooooo boring to face them each tournament no matter where I play and watching them casting 54 spells per round and recasting again and again. Difficult to enjoy a fnm... And this is now the more funny version as example paradoxial outcome

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Amalgam wrote:
1 year ago
I mean Neoform loses to itself most of the time and is a generally bad deck with or without Force of Negation being played. Unfair decks are allowed to exist and get results and are a part of any non rotating format. People can enjoy different flavors of decks even if you don't like them and modern has had them from the start. A reset wouldn't change this and Pioneer will eventually get them too even if it is only aggro decks right now.
I don't think we have any right to deny someone who enjoys his scapeshift deck or another person who enjoys his Amulet titan deck as long as they aren't putting up oppressive numbers
This is what people want you to believe. Finalnub has statistics that show something like 30% winning by turn 2. While his winning percentage isn't obscene with the deck, this right here is unacceptable. KCI and Summer Bloom Titan decks also did not have insane winning percentages. If you play MTGO, you can hit him up there or contact him via facebook. He is very friendly and will share those stats with anybody. Pros don't enjoy the deck because when you lose, you LOSE. The game is not close. But then there are the games where your opponent had a hand that beats any deck in the format, but you went first and killed them on turn 1.

For outsiders to the deck, they really have no clue of the deck. They just think that Once Upon a Time, Summoner's Pact, Allosaurus Rider, Neoform, and Eldritch Evolution are not enough to find a win for the deck.
We own the deck in our playgroup and yes I do play MTGO. The deck has less than 50% winrate over all and has since it's inception. The deck may have a very high turn 1/turn 2 win rate but half the time it folds to a single piece of interaction and it has plenty of non games where you just draw your hand and lose. If you can show data that breaks this down I may reverse my decision but as it stands there is no data of this deck winning anything
Pros love decks that get lots of free wins, the deck just simply isn't consistent enough to push through any event with multiple rounds such as a GP or simillar

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

Re: radical Modern changes
I've seen a few posts in here suggesting some more radical shifts to Modern. These include, but are not limited to, banning cards to nuke a specific archetype (RL was mentioning virtually all Dredge staples), changing the cutoff point to Mercadian Masques (I believe this was italentz), and/or restarting the banlist from scratch following Pioneer's example (Azadan brought this up). There might be other radical ideas I haven't mentioned here, and there might be other proponents of these I left out. Regardless of the specifics, I am personally avoiding these kinds of radical suggestions when making a pitch to Wizards. Some of them are a little tamer and more viable than others, but I believe all these kinds of radical ideas are either a) too unrealistic to even bother asking for, and/or b) too alienating of the Modern core with an uncertain end.

I still believe the best action steps are aggressive bans at non-essential but powerful staples in problematic decks, clear communication about Modern's future, a commitment to ongoing Modern support and additional communication, and unbans to galvanize the player base. There's a lot of other mid-term changes that need to come after that, but those need to be the top priorities. This will partially address RL's point about decks like Dredge, because you could easily ban egregious, offensive nonsense like Creeping Chill while still allowing people to play an iconic, nonrotating format mainstay like Dredge.

Overall, Modern is at its absolute best when there are dozens of top-tier archetypes that are all roughly viable, spanning the strategic range from aggro to control to big mana and everything in between. Wizards does not promote this vision by nuking decks like Dredge and artifact prison, or by completely redefining the format's starting set. Wizards does promote this by banning cards like Chill and/or Nature's Claim to trim Dredge's ability to win, while still allowing Dredge players to execute their basic gameplan. We cannot get into a slippery slope where we are just asking to ban "obnoxious" decks; nonrotating formats are going to have dozens of them no matter what. Players are allowed to play those decks in Modern, and if they need nerfs, nerf them at the margins (e.g. Scale Up in Infect), not the core (e.g. Blighted Agent). Opal might be the equivalent for artifact decks, but I admit it's a much more crippling (although perhaps necessary) ban. Given the choice between banning Urza and Opal, I'd prefer Opal gets the ban as Urza contributes to a grindier format without pushing T2-T3 unbeatable board states or outright wins.
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

Honestly if the discussion was Tron vs London Mulligan, I and most of the MTG population would shove Tron into the garbage bin for that reason alone. Everyone likes the London Mull because you don't get screwed over as much. No way are we dumping it just because Tron abuses it. Dump Tron instead.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I'll forever hate the London Mull. You want to craft your hand? Play Blue like the game was intended.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Can anybody understand something here? Could we make something out of this for Modern?

I read it as, we are going to be having changes in the coming Monday and the R&R has already decided it. Not sure though. Anyone?

All I can say is my body is ready.

32 MM15 paper copies, 4 MM15 paper foils, 4 ROE paper foils, 40 MTGO copies.

Whether they do it or not, I'll also be happy with numerous bans. Format is pretty rancid at the moment, and would be improved by a number of removals; even if they don't release my baby. It's been so bad lately that I can't even bring myself to play online until something changes.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
That's the point, we have no idea what could emerge if we had all these damn troll decks gone. Something healthy the way Pioneer is right now presumably. At this point what do we have to lose? Might as well take an axe to the format now and try to salvage the few remaining years. As I said before, IF we could some how create a fun playing field of decks and keep the troll decks out of the format for a good long time maybe there could be some long term life here...
I mean, sure, but thats a massive hypothetical. Could be an interesting thought exercise, but then you would have let me know what you figure just needs to die, and how to kill it, before we can start to think of what could bubble up out of the aftermath.

As to Pioneer, this is what I see.

Red Aggro
Black Aggro
Green Ramp (Big Mana)
UW Control (Control)
UR Phoenix (Combo/Aggro?)
Lotus Storm (Combo)
Green Aggro
Dredge Aggro
Ensoul (Artifact Aggro)

I mean, yeah. What has Magic been for years? Creature based. What has been pushed? Creatures. What will any new format default to? Aggro. We see this after every ban/rotation as well.

It will remain Aggro heavy until GP's start showing what is 'real'.
Those are just the popularized decks. People are trying all kinds of things that arent netdecks. Not just online either. At my LGS on Tuesday I faced a Knights deck that was absolutely brutal, and my UW was prepared to handle aggro. You WANT a format to be baseline aggro, as new combo cards get printed we can throttle and or ban cards as needed. We have got a 2 card combo about to be dumped into the format with the new Heliod, so we need to wait and see how the format handles combo control.
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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
That's the point, we have no idea what could emerge if we had all these damn troll decks gone. Something healthy the way Pioneer is right now presumably. At this point what do we have to lose? Might as well take an axe to the format now and try to salvage the few remaining years. As I said before, IF we could some how create a fun playing field of decks and keep the troll decks out of the format for a good long time maybe there could be some long term life here...
I mean, sure, but thats a massive hypothetical. Could be an interesting thought exercise, but then you would have let me know what you figure just needs to die, and how to kill it, before we can start to think of what could bubble up out of the aftermath.

As to Pioneer, this is what I see.

Red Aggro
Black Aggro
Green Ramp (Big Mana)
UW Control (Control)
UR Phoenix (Combo/Aggro?)
Lotus Storm (Combo)
Green Aggro
Dredge Aggro
Ensoul (Artifact Aggro)

I mean, yeah. What has Magic been for years? Creature based. What has been pushed? Creatures. What will any new format default to? Aggro. We see this after every ban/rotation as well.

It will remain Aggro heavy until GP's start showing what is 'real'.
Those are just the popularized decks. People are trying all kinds of things that arent netdecks. Not just online either. At my LGS on Tuesday I faced a Knights deck that was absolutely brutal, and my UW was prepared to handle aggro. You WANT a format to be baseline aggro, as new combo cards get printed we can throttle and or ban cards as needed. We have got a 2 card combo about to be dumped into the format with the new Heliod, so we need to wait and see how the format handles combo control.
They are also the decks putting up results. Just because there's people testing out their own brews and might be ok vs a couple a deck it doesn't mean they are good vs the format such as the aggro decks are right now. Don't confuse play at the LGS level with play at the tournament level

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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
I'll forever hate the London Mull. You want to craft your hand? Play Blue like the game was intended.
There is a disctinction to be drawn between crafting your hand, and simply having a higher chance of starting a game with something you can actually play Magic: The Gathering(tm) with.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

There is, but when you can mull towards a hand you want, especially if you dont care if you have 7 cards. Anything that outright favors linear play, should be gone.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
All I can say is my body is ready.

32 MM15 paper copies, 4 MM15 paper foils, 4 ROE paper foils, 40 MTGO copies.

Whether they do it or not, I'll also be happy with numerous bans. Format is pretty rancid at the moment, and would be improved by a number of removals; even if they don't release my baby. It's been so bad lately that I can't even bring myself to play online until something changes.
My friends were arguing with me yesterday about whether Splinter Twin should be unbanned to reenter Modern. Then a friend who knows I speculate on cards quite a bit asked me how many copies of Splinter Twin I have.

I said 4 ROE copies and 0 foil copies. That's it. (I do not have faith in WotC, especially after it took years before SfM was unbanned)
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
There is, but when you can mull towards a hand you want, especially if you dont care if you have 7 cards. Anything that outright favors linear play, should be gone.
Modern as a format already favored linear play long before the London Mulligan even existed so I'm not sure what the point is.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Tomatotime wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
There is, but when you can mull towards a hand you want, especially if you dont care if you have 7 cards. Anything that outright favors linear play, should be gone.
Modern as a format already favored linear play long before the London Mulligan even existed so I'm not sure what the point is.
The point is, why favor it even more?

Games lost to mull to the abyss ~= games lost to your opponent having the nuts.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Yeah, agree with the rest. London mulligan makes for a better game. If a deck like Tron abuses it, they should nerf it with Expo map or something. Noone is going back to losing the game when double mulliganing.
The local end boss didn't feel that way when his Sultai Urza mulled to 5 against my Elementals. He had turn 2 Oko and I had everything else. 5 turns to kill Oko, then won from there. Sure, London mulligan gives more of a chance to people who mull deep. This is true. But at what cost?

If Tron is nerfed, then Dredge takes advantage of the London mulligan. Then it's Amulet. The point is that some decks can utilize this much more than the average meat and potatoes Jund type decks. (They do prey on opponents who mull deep though.) I think that the London Mulligan is great … for Limited. That's it. It should not be in a linear format like Modern. Yes, some cards should and will be banned, but does that stop the linearity? I doubt it. Hogaak was banned and Faithless Looting killed UR Thing. The format still stayed linear.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
If Tron is nerfed, then Dredge takes advantage of the London mulligan. Then it's Amulet. The point is that some decks can utilize this much more than the average meat and potatoes Jund type decks. (They do prey on opponents who mull deep though.) I think that the London Mulligan is great … for Limited. That's it. It should not be in a linear format like Modern. Yes, some cards should and will be banned, but does that stop the linearity? I doubt it. Hogaak was banned and Faithless Looting killed UR Thing. The format still stayed linear.
100%

People simply are not looking at the deeper impact.

The London Mull lets you play out the same games over and over, more consistently.

It helps, nothing, in the net.
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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
The point is, why favor it even more?

Games lost to mull to the abyss ~= games lost to your opponent having the nuts.
Because it is a game, going through the actual motions to play the game is better than mulliganing to 4-5 and just sighing in discontent and signing the slip.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
If Tron is nerfed, then Dredge takes advantage of the London mulligan. Then it's Amulet. The point is that some decks can utilize this much more than the average meat and potatoes Jund type decks. (They do prey on opponents who mull deep though.) I think that the London Mulligan is great … for Limited. That's it. It should not be in a linear format like Modern. Yes, some cards should and will be banned, but does that stop the linearity? I doubt it. Hogaak was banned and Faithless Looting killed UR Thing. The format still stayed linear.
Just because some decks inherently can take greater advantage of the London Mulligan does not mean they do so to equal effect, I myself don't actually care if combo decks take greater advantage of it by a marginal amount, but Tron is a genuine outlier, which is why people are talking about Tron specifically due to the nature of the deck.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
All I can say is my body is ready.

32 MM15 paper copies, 4 MM15 paper foils, 4 ROE paper foils, 40 MTGO copies.

Whether they do it or not, I'll also be happy with numerous bans. Format is pretty rancid at the moment, and would be improved by a number of removals; even if they don't release my baby. It's been so bad lately that I can't even bring myself to play online until something changes.
My friends were arguing with me yesterday about whether Splinter Twin should be unbanned to reenter Modern. Then a friend who knows I speculate on cards quite a bit asked me how many copies of Splinter Twin I have.

I said 4 ROE copies and 0 foil copies. That's it. (I do not have faith in WotC, especially after it took years before SfM was unbanned)
It was hard to pass up. At rock bottom, regular copies were $2 and foils were $6. Literally used as filler most of the time to get to $25 free shipping on TCG Player over the years lol. MTGO copies are 50 cents. Super easy to toss 20 bucks to.

Do I have faith in WOTC? Heck no. But the opportunity cost was just so low, seemed worth it to buy a bunch of my favorite card either way. :love:

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

[mention]idSurge[/mention] Imo your analysis of both London Mulligan and Twin share the same flaw. You choose the non fun option both times. The format is dying from being not fun first and foremost. It's time to put away those methods and try a different way.
Robert Leva
Creator of Modern's 8Rack Deck
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