[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Ed06288
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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

My first thought was you can fetch this with summoner's pact

Do you think that maybe the problem is that cards in general don't have an opportunity cost anymore? Ice fang coatl draws you a card, teferi time raveler draws you a card, arcums astrolabe draws you a card, emry lurker of the loch can fetch a card from the graveyard. veil of summer draws a card. they also unbanned stoneforge, jace the mind sculptor, and bloodbraid elf which all replace themselves immediately. plus the london mulligan rule makes me think that design has fallen too much in love with stopping mana screw/mana flood, but in turn it's pushed out midrange.

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

The new Dryad is one toughness point too high, going from interesting addition to the format to probably very obnoxious.
Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
what are people's thoughts on force of negation? card doesn't seem overpowered but it's soured on me a bit. you force the control player to tap down with a good end of turn play but still get tripped up by a force.
I dislike free counterspells for the reason you mentioned, they take away a lot of the play that make counterspells interesting. However, I also think that in an eternal format, eventually they become a necessary evil. For the purpose that it serves, FoN is probably one of the better designed cards from Modern Horizons as a fixed version of Force of Will; being reasonably hardcastable, exiling, only hitting noncreature, difficult to support your own combo with and removing the weird 1 life cost were all well thought out changes. It's a shame they missed the mark so hard with the other forces of MH.
Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
Why we want ban so many cards, if mox alone do same (maybe more?). Emry? It's fine without mox helping it turn 1... Urza? It's fine if he can use it most early turn 4. You all want cards banned around the real problem. We need to stop core of this stuff
One or two bans will not make a difference in what the issues are of Modern; I'll consider most ban updates shorter than 4 cards the equivalent of "no changes". [mention]ktkenshinx[/mention]'s list is something I'd be happy to see.. But I do agree with you that banning around Mox Opal would be bad.
Last edited by Bearscape 1 year ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Yes, more bans... I ment in urza it's wrong if banning only around mox. Forcing format again survival of this card. It's impossible stopping urza/whir as long mox stays there

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
My first thought was you can fetch this with summoner's pact

Do you think that maybe the problem is that cards in general don't have an opportunity cost anymore? Ice fang coatl draws you a card, teferi time raveler draws you a card, arcums astrolabe draws you a card, emry lurker of the loch can fetch a card from the graveyard. veil of summer draws a card. they also unbanned stoneforge, jace the mind sculptor, and bloodbraid elf which all replace themselves immediately. plus the london mulligan rule makes me think that design has fallen too much in love with stopping mana screw/mana flood, but in turn it's pushed out midrange.
So true. Nowadays it seems all cards need replacing themselves. Look as another example little karn. Search your side? Great... Even it get killed after

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

On the note of functional errata, I do think we'll see it at some point. I also don't think it will be that much of a big deal; we've all been playing with Lord of Atlantis* not having a single version that is actually 100% accurate to what the card does. And although I've myself won a single match by my opponent scooping thinking they were dead to Lord of Atlantis pumping himself, the other hundreds of games I've played with Merfolk my opponent knew what Lord of Atlantis does, or asked a Judge to clarify.

Functional errata will happen eventually. It's not ideal, mistakes will happen, but compared to the massive library of cards most magic players remember by heart, adding an asterisk to one or two of them will not result in Pandemonium.

*I did not know about the Judge gift card of 2018 so I'll have to errata my post.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
Why we want ban so many cards, if mox alone do same (maybe more?). Emry? It's fine without mox helping it turn 1... Urza? It's fine if he can use it most early turn 4. You all want cards banned around the real problem. We need to stop core of this stuff
I am willing to hear this out. Mox opal has been powerful and a relitivly minor problem for a long time, similar but to a lesser extent to the way faithless looting was. So to follow the ban core pieces model strictly you would ban mox opal, and I'm assuming oko too, and what else?

A Mox and oko ban would certainly down power the urza decks and that may be enough for that achatype, but the format almost certainly needs more done than that. Peole are eyeing OUaT and veil of summer as ban targets instead of something bigger like the titan itself. What else needs done under the only ban core peice philosophy? Certainly twin and pod would never be unbanned with this line of thinking. The whole ban list would need to be reworked if you stuck to this philosophy strictly. (Looking at you cantrips, storm ramp spells, summer bloom and more)

I think they should ban oko, urza, lattice, astrolabe.
Unban Twin and bridge from below.

That may not hurt titan much, but the oko ban would help. I would rather ban urza than mox opal, urza will just find more peices to combo with if he remains legal.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Artifact control
Dredge
Tron

This is my short list of decks that MUST NOT be allowed to thrive in Modern in order for it to be fun. I'm sorry if you are a fan of those strats but these are degenerate and unhealthy to the game. What ever bannings they do you must cripple the decks listed once and for all. Then unban all the toys left on the banlist, go to weekly ban changes and see what happens.

THEN if it still sucks reboot the whole format with an earlier starting point.
For me it is down to what you mean by 'thrive'.
I quite like RG tron or GX tron to exist, because I like killing lands and making them suffer for being greedy. I would like it to be less consistent as it is, stirrings has always upset me a little.


I don't mind artifact control, not Urza shenanigans, that needs to die forever, but a bunch of Bridges and Karns iand other control cards is fine in the same way mono b 8 rack is fine.


Dredge I agree, I don't think it should exist in any form.

I would definitely add pod and probably twin to the lists of decks that should not exist, storm and ascendancy type too need to never be a force in the format again.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
On the note of functional errata, I do think we'll see it at some point. I also don't think it will be that much of a big deal; we've all been playing with Lord of Atlantis* not having a single version that is actually 100% accurate to what the card does. And although I've myself won a single match by my opponent scooping thinking they were dead to Lord of Atlantis pumping himself, the other hundreds of games I've played with Merfolk my opponent knew what Lord of Atlantis does, or asked a Judge to clarify.

Functional errata will happen eventually. It's not ideal, mistakes will happen, but compared to the massive library of cards most magic players remember by heart, adding an asterisk to one or two of them will not result in Pandemonium.

*I did not know about the Judge gift card of 2018 so I'll have to errata my post.
Sylvan library 5 ed has an activated ability! There are loads of examples of older cards worded in different ways to how theu work, I agree functional errata won't make much difference.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Artifact control
Dredge
Tron

This is my short list of decks that MUST NOT be allowed to thrive in Modern in order for it to be fun. I'm sorry if you are a fan of those strats but these are degenerate and unhealthy to the game. What ever bannings they do you must cripple the decks listed once and for all. Then unban all the toys left on the banlist, go to weekly ban changes and see what happens.

THEN if it still sucks reboot the whole format with an earlier starting point.
For me it is down to what you mean by 'thrive'.
I quite like RG tron or GX tron to exist, because I like killing lands and making them suffer for being greedy. I would like it to be less consistent as it is, stirrings has always upset me a little.


I don't mind artifact control, not Urza shenanigans, that needs to die forever, but a bunch of Bridges and Karns iand other control cards is fine in the same way mono b 8 rack is fine.


Dredge I agree, I don't think it should exist in any form.

I would definitely add pod and probably twin to the lists of decks that should not exist, storm and ascendancy type too need to never be a force in the format again.
G Tron - Fine to exist, but should never be Tier 1. Its been too consistent for about 5 years, and the london mull makes it even worse.
Dredge - Fine to exist, but as has been proven many times, if its Tier 1, the format implodes. Creeping Chill should have never been printed.
Artifact Control - Fine to exist, but it needs to be ARTIFACTS. It needs to fold to Stony Silence. If its more robust than that, the format implodes.

Thats the issue here, not that these decks exist, because they should, but that if they are too consistent (thanks again London Mull) or too resilient, they 100% push out reactive or interactive strategies.

It's impossible for me to agree that Twin should never exist, but its a unique deck, the likes of which has never been printed since, so...maybe thats just how it is.
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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

Although I have mostly played UWx for the existance of Modern, I do like Tron being there as a "ceiling" for the format. Too many grindy control mirrors get very exhausting, and tron saying "if you durdle beyond this point, you're gonna get Ulamog'd" dampens that. Tron also inadvertently brings a cost to playing multicolor by promoting the play of Field of Ruin, which IMO is a good thing.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Update on Oko numbers given the past weekend. MTGtop8 now has Oko at 38.3% of decks and 3.3 copies per deck. This places it at 1.26 copies per deck on average across the entire format. This now places it higher than Tarmogoyf at it's peak in 2011 where it was the most played threat at 1.13 copies per deck, making it the most popular threat to ever be seen in Modern outside of the peak of Eldrazi Winter.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
what are people's thoughts on force of negation? card doesn't seem overpowered but it's soured on me a bit. you force the control player to tap down with a good end of turn play but still get tripped up by a force.
Force of Negation is incredibly annoying, especially for a Combo player like myself. I can honestly say that without that card being in the format, I would be running Neobrand MUCH more than I do, which is not at all nowadays.

That being said, the card was a great attempt by Wizards to stem some degeneracy in Modern, along with the Hogaak and Faithless Looting bans. It was a solid 3 prong attempt (2 bans and new cards) to take away some degeneracy. The issue is that they created too many other cards that lead to much more degeneracy than we would have had just with those cards (well...maybe not Hogaak lol).
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
So, what about Prismatic Omen with 2/4 pow/tough plus additional land drops at 3 mana? This must be a joke, right?
I guess, Valakut likes this a lot!!!!!!!!

They are really not thinking about Modern, or other non-rotating formats.

:sick: :sick: :sick:

ENmjPwYVAAESVZV.png
Card is nuuuuuts. I am a Valakut player and I do not think we needed something like this. We were plenty strong enough already. Maybe there is going to be a push to ban some cards (please not my Titan :sweat: ). The card is definitely a 1-2 of in Valakut and I heard some Amulet (and Amuletless) players talk about playing Valakut in their decks. :o
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Re: bans
Lattice, Veil, and OUaT all fit my so-called "nerf ban" model of eliminating problematic cards without killing their core decks. Oko needs to go for format dominance reasons at this point, even if it's the core of certain UGx strategies. At a minimum, all four of those cards should be banned today (or ASAP) to rebalance Modern. Astrolabe should also be up for discussion, along with Urza himself and potentially Emry. I'd also add T3feri to my nerf ban list, as it homogenizes Ux decks towards UWx and represents yet another god awful, format-wrecking 2019 design mistake. This ban update also needs to have clear marching directives from Wizards about where their format curation is heading in 2020.
You don't think Oko, Thief of Crowns needs a ban? This card is so pervasive that it is now in Bant Snowblade, most versions of Urza decks, Amulet, Infect, and players are splashing him in decks like Titanshift, etc. This card is just too much and super strong. After coming back from playing at CFB's Game Center in Santa Clara, I am convinced that in more competitive metas, Oko is NOT all right.

Lattice is annoying. It will definitely be a problem and does not need to be a part of Modern. It doesn't add anything good. But I don't think it is pervasive enough to be banned (yet). But preemptively banning it would definitely be a positive for Modern.

Veil of Summer is also annoying and the straw that broke the camel's back on interactivity in Modern, but honestly even with it banned, Modern is not going to change much. Smaller formats got more broken by this card because there is not as many deck/card choices. It also doesn't add anything good, but I'm not sure it is bannable yet. Personally I would much rather see it banned from Legacy.

Once Upon a Time, like Oko, was a clear mistake. Anyone who can't see this by now, I really just ... don't ... know ... what to say. In my opinion, this card is definitely bannable. The card is played in anything that has Green and is freaking FREE. :crazy: It's dumb. As someone who is playing a lot of Amulet (which has been eclipsed by Amuletless because of 4 Oko), Once Upon a Time really pushed the deck (along with Field of the Dead, which pushes the deck a bit much too). Without those 2 cards, which do vastly different things, Amulet is a deck that shouldn't have anything banned. But as it stands, the "Amulet" deck is just too strong. It's just overshadowed right now by Urza and Oko. Oko is just a dumb, dumb card. I'm pretty sure some players scoop when their opponent resolves one and all it does it saves them 10 minutes of trying and trying to kill it just to lose horribly in the end. Tell me I'm wrong here.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Amalgam wrote:
1 year ago
If they do end up banning from Urza I really do hope it's Urza and/or Astrolobe though. Would hate to see affinity completely crumble and die with an opal ban
I'm 100% behind an Astrolabe ban. I also think Mishra's Bauble is a good/safe ban, it has quietly been an enabler for several decks that have been banned now.

Urza should stay, I like Oko but a lot don't, and the card is definitely warping the meta. Opal should definitely not be banned, there's way too much collateral damage there.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Artifact control
Dredge
Tron

This is my short list of decks that MUST NOT be allowed to thrive in Modern in order for it to be fun. I'm sorry if you are a fan of those strats but these are degenerate and unhealthy to the game. What ever bannings they do you must cripple the decks listed once and for all. Then unban all the toys left on the banlist, go to weekly ban changes and see what happens.

THEN if it still sucks reboot the whole format with an earlier starting point.
For me it is down to what you mean by 'thrive'.
I quite like RG tron or GX tron to exist, because I like killing lands and making them suffer for being greedy. I would like it to be less consistent as it is, stirrings has always upset me a little.


I don't mind artifact control, not Urza shenanigans, that needs to die forever, but a bunch of Bridges and Karns iand other control cards is fine in the same way mono b 8 rack is fine.


Dredge I agree, I don't think it should exist in any form.

I would definitely add pod and probably twin to the lists of decks that should not exist, storm and ascendancy type too need to never be a force in the format again.
G Tron - Fine to exist, but should never be Tier 1. Its been too consistent for about 5 years, and the london mull makes it even worse.
Dredge - Fine to exist, but as has been proven many times, if its Tier 1, the format implodes. Creeping Chill should have never been printed.
Artifact Control - Fine to exist, but it needs to be ARTIFACTS. It needs to fold to Stony Silence. If its more robust than that, the format implodes.

Thats the issue here, not that these decks exist, because they should, but that if they are too consistent (thanks again London Mull) or too resilient, they 100% push out reactive or interactive strategies.

It's impossible for me to agree that Twin should never exist, but its a unique deck, the likes of which has never been printed since, so...maybe thats just how it is.
No no no. We've tried it your way since the beginning. Half measures don't work. The decks never stay down for long they keep coming back over and over with the printing of new cards. Ban these decks once and for all and take a deep breath of clean refreshing air. The modern that would exist if you NEVER had to worry about siding against Dredge or Tron or Artifact control...

Give them the toys that are left banned too. IF they do ALL of that, it might make the next couple years of moderns slow demise pretty fun. And then who know maybe something can be done in the future....,
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Not sure if you are serious, but I'm not for the absolute removal of decks. Losing Twin is the singular worst experience I have had in gaming, across any game, over my entire life. :p

That said, there are 2 things they could easily do.

1. Remove the absolute %$#% that is the London Mulligan.
2. Nerf those decks, and actively monitor the format, as if they actually cared about it, to ensure they did not print something (Karn, Creeping, whatever) that pushed those decks too much.

I dont need to play Midrange vs Midrange forever, I dont think you will get traction with that. However there is NO REASON PERIOD that Stirrings should be legal, and Preordain not.
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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

Personally I'm kind of tired of all these posts calling for bans of exclusively 2019 cards, I'm not sure how people think that will actually solve anything, Modern has been a dumpster fire since well before 2019, if you want to fix it via banning, than people need to freely advocate for pre-2019 cards to be banned, such as:

Tron
Blood Moon
Ensnaring Bridge
Lattice
Something from infect?
Something from burn?
etc.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
1. Remove the absolute %$#% that is the London Mulligan.
What do you believe the problem with the London Mulligan is? I know that when it came out, many people were apprehensive of what it would do to certain decks, but the idea at the time was that bans could correct that if necessary. Why is removing a much better mulligan preferable to making ban list corrections?

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
1. Remove the absolute %$#% that is the London Mulligan.
What do you believe the problem with the London Mulligan is? I know that when it came out, many people were apprehensive of what it would do to certain decks, but the idea at the time was that bans could correct that if necessary. Why is removing a much better mulligan preferable to making ban list corrections?
I'm on record as wanting MULTIPLE, more than most people by far, bans and an unban.

I also firmly believe that in a format where you do not need card advantage, and decks are already hyper consistent, when you allow for people to sculpt a 4 or 5 card hand and ensure you get those explosive starts, its provides no reason to do anything but play a linear proactive game plan.

It further widens the gulf between Tier 1, and Tier 2 level decks.

We should not want bans to correct things, when a prior rule was better for keeping variance at an acceptable level. I wish LSV had just had the nuts and won that PT, because if not for him mulling to the abyss, we would all be better off.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Tomatotime wrote:
1 year ago
Personally I'm kind of tired of all these posts calling for bans of exclusively 2019 cards, I'm not sure how people think that will actually solve anything, Modern has been a dumpster fire since well before 2019, if you want to fix it via banning, than people need to freely advocate for pre-2019 cards to be banned, such as:

Tron
Blood Moon
Ensnaring Bridge
Lattice
Something from infect?
Something from burn?
etc.
The difference is, 2019 hit EVERY format, top to bottom. Thats just not something that reflects well on the cards that made those impacts. Its insane to not acknowledge that the 2019 cards are busted in a way that is unique to the last 5 years at least. I've certainly never seen something like it.

Tron itself I have covered.
Blood Moon is fine, its a hate card.
Bridge is fine, dont play creatures, or remove it.
Lattice → Hey 2019 card.
Infect? Why. Its fine. Oh T3feri causing issues? Veil? Hmm, 2019 Cards.
Burn? Completely fine. It did get a boost though recently...hmm..

Its 2019. Its the london Mulligan.

If you want to go back further. It's Looting, its Stirrings, and its Opal/Vial.

In the end though, you need to have a top deck duo, that can actually control the degeneracy. If you dont have that, and Wizards continues to take a dump on the format every set, then you need excessive levels of bans.
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

What is wrong with artifact control? I mean Stax like artifact control in Legacy? It has never really existed in Modern, surely? Maybe the old Top Control deck, but that was a janky seventh tier deck for years with no problem before it got tuned.

I mean Urza is not artifact control or anything like- that label has been around for years and is given to mean trinisphere, bridge, et al, in a prison shell. Combo artifact in Legacy goes by the name of MUD, they call Urza 'blue artifacts'. This new Urza deck is not artifact control as we usrd the term for years.
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

I am completely serious. Delete those decks, or completely neuter them to the point of trash tier. Then the format can be FUN. I dont care if you like those decks they are BAD for the game!
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

London is fine, it is the lack of **** you hate cards to mull into that is the issue. Print flexible hate them and London helps the hate decks for the tier one.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
I am completely serious. Delete those decks, or completely neuter them to the point of trash tier. Then the format can be FUN. I dont care if you like those decks they are BAD for the game!
Thats never going to fly in a non rotational format. Trust, I hate Tron to the point where random Tron players on Twitter have me blocked, but people should be allowed to play it.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
London is fine, it is the lack of **** you hate cards to mull into that is the issue. Print flexible hate them and London helps the hate decks for the tier one.
Disagree. The game then boils down to the linear 'game 1' deck, just mulling to the anti hate. What depth of gameplay.
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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
The difference is, 2019 hit EVERY format, top to bottom. Thats just not something that reflects well on the cards that made those impacts. Its insane to not acknowledge that the 2019 cards are busted in a way that is unique to the last 5 years at least. I've certainly never seen something like it.
Okay, so which is stronger and more degenerate to the Modern meta, Tron or Once Upon a Time? The reason I bring this up is that at some point it just gets a little bit much when people are advocating for the ban of objectively weaker cards while ignoring the obvious elephants in the room.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
If you want to go back further. It's Looting, its Stirrings, and its Opal/Vial.
Just as an aside, what exactly is the issue with Vial?
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Tron itself I have covered.
?
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Blood Moon is fine, its a hate card.
Not really, Rest in Peace is a hate card, Blood Moon is a card that randomly just ends the game on the spot the second it resolves, even against fair decks who play lots of basics but just so happened to draw the wrong half of their land base. The idea that Blood Moon is some honest actor is a joke, it is a threat, not an answer.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Bridge is fine, dont play creatures, or remove it.
I take it you have never played against Lantern Control?
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Lattice → Hey 2019 card.
Karn may be the 2019 card, but the problem is fundamentally Lattice.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Infect? Why. Its fine. Oh T3feri causing issues? Veil? Hmm, 2019 Cards.
Burn? Completely fine. It did get a boost though recently...hmm..
The reason I put Infect and Burn is simply due to their solitaire/goldfish playstyle which isn't adding anything productive to Modern and both are slowly getting power creeped over time.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Its 2019. Its the london Mulligan.
Not really, London Mulligan helps to prevent a higher number of non-games from happening, I for one like it.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
In the end though, you need to have a top deck duo, that can actually control the degeneracy. If you dont have that, and Wizards continues to take a dump on the format every set, then you need excessive levels of bans.
Ahhh, so this was all just a thinly veiled argument to unban Twin the entire time, got it.

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