[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

Mtgthewary
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

So true... We all knew which decks are problematic and we still wait 2 weeks after 2 weeks? Can't understand this logic behind. People hate modern in meantime only because of this wasted time. Ktkensinkx as example made in the past same mistake... Saying allways we need more data.. More... More and more. Modern is dieing and we still collect data? For what? We all knew what need to be happen and this means not collecting more data

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
So true... We all knew which decks are problematic and we still wait 2 weeks after 2 weeks? Can't understand this logic behind. People hate modern in meantime only because of this wasted time. Ktkensinkx as example made in the past same mistake... Saying allways we need more data.. More... More and more. Modern is dieing and we still collect data? For what? We all knew what need to be happen and this means not collecting more data
I think the people hating modern right now can't be any more true. This is anecdotal I feel, but even a lot of the most diehard modern supporters I know haven't been attending even fnms regularly let alone comp level events.

I don't even know if modern feels off just because of Urza/Oko decks or the format as a whole but modern seems a lot more stale than it's been. Maybe it's because once one broken deck gets banned, the next one just takes over now

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
So true... We all knew which decks are problematic and we still wait 2 weeks after 2 weeks? Can't understand this logic behind. People hate modern in meantime only because of this wasted time. Ktkensinkx as example made in the past same mistake... Saying allways we need more data.. More... More and more. Modern is dieing and we still collect data? For what? We all knew what need to be happen and this means not collecting more data
Guys, I can't emphasize this enough. Stop focusing on bans/unbans as the source of Modern's problems. Modern has legitimate, foundational issues right now that need to be addressed that are significantly more problematic than any card currently legal in the format. Wizards could get the perfect combination of bans/unbans on Monday of next week and it wouldn't matter for Modern's future unless they address the other issues. Those issues are, in no particular order, the format's overlapping mission/goals with Pioneer, its nonexistent Arena future, and lack of Wizards communication around the format. Secondary issues include rampant community ban mania at any card/deck that appears top-tier, lack of data to have informed discussions around Modern's health, a continued gap between proactive threats and reactive answers, and lack of testing for obviously broken Modern cards. The currently busted cards are significantly less harmful to Modern than all of those issues, especially the big four foundational problems. Wizards could ban Urza/Oko/Veil/Tron/insert-card-the-community-hates-today at 8:00 AM PST on Monday and we'd be in the same problem because all of the other issues would still be true, and we would be right back in this same position when the next busted thing happened.

I don't understand why Modern diehards in this thread don't understand the crisis issue. Some people do like RL and DrMark, maybe GK, and I think some people might not care anymore and are just tired and ready to move on (CFP?). But other people, especially you, MTGthewary in most of your posts, seem to think we're going to ban our way out of these high-level, format direction issues. We're not. It would be like trying to reverse global climate change by banning gas stoves. Does burning fuel for gas stoves contribute to greenhouse gas emissions? Almost certainly. Are they a minuscule piece of the problem relative to the bigger issues? Yes. Focus on the bigger issues and not these tiny ones if you are serious about saving the sinking Modern ship.
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
I don't understand why Modern diehards in this thread don't understand the crisis issue.
I definitely understand the crisis issue and I am pretty sure Mtgthewary also does. I have made a lot of post about those issues. Those are medium-long term issues and I agree with all of them. I am also talking about things that affect Modern in the short term. The opportunity cost of collecting data and sacrificing event after event jeopardizing the format's health for months is a serious issue that has serious repercussions in the short term. You can fix every long term issue but if people are leaving in the short term then those people are likely not coming back. If you sell your cards now at an all time low and lets say Moderns long term health is fixed in a year from now, then the prices might rise (investors, shops buying cards etc) and people who sold out this year and already took a big loss aren't going to pay premium prices next year. Also people who sell out of Modern and buy into Pioneer or even Legacy will have their cash tied up in those formats and are also not coming back.
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Banmania? Which banmania? Urza/whir as example makes problems since Kci and it doesn't get a ban. I don't see any bans. By the way, Noone sayed it's the only problem... It's part of the problem and they are several more.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
I definitely understand the crisis issue. I have made a lot of post about it. Those are medium-long term issues and I agree with all of them. I am also talking about things that affect Modern in the short term. The opportunity cost of collecting data and sacrificing event after event jeopardizing the format's health for months is a serious issue that has serious repercussions in the short term. You can fix every long term issue but if people are leaving in the short term then those people are likely not coming back. If you sell your cards now at an all time low and lets say Moderns long term health is fixed in a year from now, then the prices might rise (investors, shops buying cards etc) and people who sold out this year and already took a big loss aren't going to pay premium prices next year. Also people who sell out of Modern and buy into Pioneer or even Legacy will have their cash tied up in those formats and are also not coming back.
The bolded bit above (emphasis added) could not be more wrong. Modern has survived numerous periods where the format sucked. Players kept coming back. Players even showed out in force to Hogaak Summer GP despite widespread knowledge the format was profoundly broken. Historically, Modern has always been there as the only supported, competitive, nonrotating format game in town. But the competing pressure of Pioneer, its sparkling future, its presence on Arena, and Wizards' deafening and continued silence on Modern mean this is no longer the case. Modern is on borrowed time.

I believe you care about Modern so please, listen to me and others who are giving you these warnings. Short-term bans and unbans will not fix the format. Wizards will continue to break Modern with %$#% design for at least another year as Play Design continues to fail at screening out busted Modern (and even Standard) cards. Wizards can respond with more bans every single time, but in addition to the impact endless bans have on investment confidence, the format will continue to erode as players simply lose confidence in its future direction and support. Every time the hyperbolic and reactionary Modern playerbase clamors for bans, it ignores the graver, foundational problems Modern is facing and allows Wizards to publicly ignore those problems too.
Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
Banmania? Which banmania? Urza/whir as example makes problems since Kci and it doesn't get a ban. I don't see any bans. By the way, Noone sayed it's the only problem... It's part of the problem and they are several more.
I feel like you didn't read my post, especially because you are latching onto the term "ban mania" that I literally only used once in the post and not even as a primary talking point. Again, bans will not solve the problem. Wizards could have a perfectly healthy Modern metagame and the format would still be fading to obscurity as Wizards' corporate engine grinds towards Pioneer/Historic/Arena/esports in a future where we are absent. Until/unless that's addressed, bans are not going to matter.
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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
The bolded bit above (emphasis added) could not be more wrong. Modern has survived numerous periods where the format sucked. Players kept coming back. Players even showed out in force to Hogaak Summer GP despite widespread knowledge the format was profoundly broken. Historically, Modern has always been there as the only supported, competitive, nonrotating format game in town. But the competing pressure of Pioneer, its sparkling future, its presence on Arena, and Wizards' deafening and continued silence on Modern mean this is no longer the case. Modern is on borrowed time.
Because it has had no competition until now? This is a crap example and you know it.

Players continuing to play Modern because there is a lack of alternative should not be confused as some sort of loyalty towards Modern. Especially when good standard formats are few and far between while a large portion of the player base are priced out of Legacy/do not have a community.

If a portion of the player base jumps ship at the slightest hint of a better alternative, that should already tell you how much goodwill towards Modern has eroded over the past 4 years.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
The bolded bit above (emphasis added) could not be more wrong. Modern has survived numerous periods where the format sucked. Players kept coming back
You already are giving the answer yourself: The competing pressure of Pioneer. This is a new variable. First there was no alternative so people just complained but kept their cards, now people complain and sell out of Modern to buy into Pioneer. Just look at the market for Modern staples! Buylists are dropping and cards aren't moving.

For the average player the decision to attend a Modern FNM or any tourney in general doesn't depend on whether or whether not Modern is coming to Arena or if a new card will break Modern in 3 months or if Forsyth writes long essays about Modern. The decision depends on whether the player currently enjoys the format enough to attend a tourney.

I am telling you the future of Modern will be decided this month. People aren't attending to Modern FNM's for months and Pioneer is hot. LGS act quickly because their income depends on it. Shifting Pioneer to Friday is a huge blow for Modern. More and more LGS's are taking this decision and its irrevocable. The average Joe's decision to sell out of Modern right now and thus taking a financial loss and investing in Pioneer is a decision based on the fact Pioneer will be played on Friday. Joe isn't coming back to Modern, not in 3 months, not in 6 months not in a year, never! LGS won't put Modern back on Friday because average Joe won't attend and he will be angry. He bought into Pioneer thinking he could play every Friday. LGS and players are committing themselves to Pioneer and dropping Modern.

Its pointless to discuss long term issues of Modern if it doesn't survive the short term. If after January attendance for Modern has dropped 75% what kind of incentive does Wizards have to discuss the long term issues or even talking about Arena? The short term health of Modern needs to be fixed and this can be accomplished through bans. After the short term is fixed and the format is somewhat healthy and fun to play you can discuss on where Modern stands and where it will go from there. Its long term issues, but for now the more important things are the short term issues. January is decisive to conclude if Modern will survive as a format.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

True-Name Nemesis wrote:
1 year ago
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
The bolded bit above (emphasis added) could not be more wrong. Modern has survived numerous periods where the format sucked. Players kept coming back. Players even showed out in force to Hogaak Summer GP despite widespread knowledge the format was profoundly broken. Historically, Modern has always been there as the only supported, competitive, nonrotating format game in town. But the competing pressure of Pioneer, its sparkling future, its presence on Arena, and Wizards' deafening and continued silence on Modern mean this is no longer the case. Modern is on borrowed time.
Because it has had no competition until now? This is a crap example and you know it.

Players continuing to play Modern because there is a lack of alternative should not be confused as some sort of loyalty towards Modern. Especially when good standard formats are few and far between while a large portion of the player base are priced out of Legacy/do not have a community.

If a portion of the player base jumps ship at the slightest hint of a better alternative, that should already tell you how much goodwill towards Modern has eroded over the past 4 years.
We don't disagree that Modern/Wizards has used up its supply of good will. We just seem to disagree about the solution. I'm just telling you that no amount of bans/unbans is going to fix the problem. There are two reasons for this. First, Wizards is going to continue to break the format with bad design decisions. It's not going to end with Urza or Oko or Veil or Hogaak or whatever other disaster they've printed next year. There will always be lag time between when Wizards can diagnose the problem and when they fix it. If Modern is hemorrhaging players every time this happens, that points to underlying format issues, not just an acute period of metagame instability or sickness. Players will continue to move over to Pioneer every time. There's also no certainty that Wizards hits the right cards when they ban something, and no certainty about the impact certain bans will have on the overall metagame picture. Wizards could just as easily ban their way into a worse format with the wrong moves. They literally did this in July by banning Bridge; we should have zero confidence they won't continue to mess up. We should expect more broken cards and unhealthy metagames, which means we need Modern to sustain its players even during those ugly times.

That brings us to the second reason for Modern's decline: Modern currently has no defined future. Pioneer has a clear future in Arena and lots of vocalized Wizards support going forward. Wizards hasn't said a word about Modern's long-term prospects in years, leaving players with no confidence. Until/unless Wizards redefines that future, players will feel hopeless and not want to stay. Bans and unbans provide short-term injections of excitement into the community, but the most recent B&R update, one that addressed two cards many were vocal about for years, was not nearly enough to buoy Modern through a time of gradual metagame decline.

@[mention]iTaLenTZ[/mention], TNN, and anyone else who thinks bans are going to solve this crisis
Stop believing Wizards can ban their way out of this problem. They do need to ban cards in Modern but that's not going to address the core problems, and Wizards is going to get the ban/unban combination wrong many more times before they get it right. They are also going to continue to break the format with more bad design decisions like we saw throughout 2019. If we are to get through these problematic periods, Wizards needs to provide a clear roadmap for Modern's future and its coexistence with Pioneer or we're all going to be living in a Pioneer world as Modern gradually declines throughout 2020 into 2021 irrelevance.
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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 1 year ago

You seem to be under the impression that we think bans are the only way. I assure you that you are sorely wrong about this.

WoTC needs to have short, mid and long term plans for Modern, and they need to execute all of these with very little margin of error.

The only area we disagree is what has to be prioritised.

For many of us, the priority is to keep players wanting to play Modern in the short term, and the best way to do this is bans and unbans. It's no coincidence that over the past couple years, the format has been the most enjoyable in the immediate aftermath following big unbans (Jace, BBE, SFM), no matter how short-lived that hype was.

Bans and unbans buys them time and goodwill to implement whatever they need to implement. You're right when you say that design philosophy etc needs to change. It's imperative but it doesn't matter if they don't have time to do it.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
I can summarize the past 2 years of Modern in 1 sentence: It is the tragedy of Modern that we must endure so much pain before arriving at a compromise that we always knew was going to be needed.

We all know at this point Urza/Oko/Veil are broken. We all know that the majority is sick and tired of Urzatron. Same with Faithless Loothing. The banning was a year overdue. And now we have to wait until mid January. Why? Urza has already been legal for 6 months, what is 2 weeks going to matter? Modern is about waiting for Wizards to act and most of the times they don't. All Wizards has done is sacrificing event after event after event to collect data to take a decision we all knew was coming anyways. Just FFS take these decisions timely for once because we all know in the end they will be taken and in the meantime the playerbase is suffering and quitting and losing consumer trust.

Its common knowledge that the worst a company can do is to 'sell no'. Wizards has sold us no way too many times the past 2 years. Each time people cancelled their plans to attend a Modern tourney made them rethink their engagement with the format. Each time people said 'well the format doesn't look fun and balanced now I will skip this GP, Magicfest, FNM's etc" is a potential moment that person is lost forever. If you can't play you might as well sell up and go play something else and that is what we have been witnessing the past 2-3 months. The mismanagement of Modern as a whole the past 2 years (and the repercussions of Magic design 2019 as a whole) had very high costs and we are seeing that now because of Pioneer. The people who sold their cards recently sold them at an all time low and they are still declining. Consumer trust in Modern has been obliterated, Nobody in his right mind is going to spend money on Modern.
This post really nails they way I have been feeling for years. Why the hell has WOTC been selling us so much damn "no" for so long with this format? You'd think they would be incentivized to make as many of us happy as possible, but nah let's keep the %$#% Dredge and Looting players happy for another six months to a year. It's probably because those players are so vocal, and because of the useless damn "pros" that create a feedback loop of trending decks that are degenerate and annoying to play against.

Now look at how they are hand crafting Pioneer from day 1 to ensure it stays fun. In my opinion, they realize where they went wrong and are trying hard not to make the same mistakes in the new format. The old Modern format however, they still refuse to make they huge sweeping changes that are needed.

They need to put Modern on the same "emergency condition" ban list cycle that Pioneer is currently in. If a deck gets out of hand, drop the freaking ban hammer immediately. Also any perfectly fair cards that are fun to use and currently banned need to come off. Give the modern people more toys like SFM to play with. She could have come off years ago. Jace was the same. Jitte is the same now and there are others on there as well.

New toys means new decks new new takes on old decks. Nostalgia is selling right now, WOTC needs to ship as much nostalgia as they can to modern players. We love our old toys, and we want to play with them even if they suck in today's modern.

And please keep in mind, I say all of these things KNOWING that modern only has a few years left. I think they should make it as fun as possible for folks for those last few years. They owe us that much.
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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

True-Name Nemesis wrote:
1 year ago
You seem to be under the impression that we think bans are the only way. I assure you that you are sorely wrong about this.

WoTC needs to have short, mid and long term plans for Modern, and they need to execute all of these with very little margin of error.

The only area we disagree is what has to be prioritised.

For many of us, the priority is to keep players wanting to play Modern in the short term, and the best way to do this is bans and unbans. It's no coincidence that over the past couple years, the format has been the most enjoyable in the immediate aftermath following big unbans (Jace, BBE, SFM), no matter how short-lived that hype was.

Bans and unbans buys them time and goodwill to implement whatever they need to implement. You're right when you say that design philosophy etc needs to change. It's imperative but it doesn't matter if they don't have time to do it.
We might not even disagree at all. I've literally proposed bans in the last few pages. I fully agree Wizards needs to ban cards starting with nonsense like Oko and Veil, extending to things like Lattice, probably including Urza, and considering widespread sideboard nerfs to some of these linear, less interactive decks. Bans 100% need to happen. But bans alone are completely and utterly meaningless unless they come with some kind of immediate, clear statement from Wizards on Modern's future. Everyone is clamoring for bans now. There are very few people who are clamoring with the same intensity for some direction and clarity from Wizards. That needs to change and every time people focus on bans, they do so at the expense of those larger issues.

These issues can and do coexist. But every time someone mentions bans, they also need to mention the core Modern issues and the dire need for Wizards to publish a series of statements (with legitimate follow-up) on those issues.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

All of these problems stem from the fact that WOTC makes format-shaping decision and developments behind closed doors and without the help of the community. Play Design was supposed to help with that but... well, that also gave us likely the single worst year in all of Magic across every format.

One of the reasons Commander has been so successful, not just because of being a casual format, but because it's managed by an open tribunal of people, including taking input from several community members, that is separate from WOTC and their design teams. There is discussion and consensus about what to do, how to act, or if anything is needed at all among people deeply invested (financially, emotionally, etc) in the format, and they have a deep wealth of knowledge specifically about Commander. Out of the history of the format, there have only been a few head-scratchers, and for the most part is revered as excellently managed. It's what happens when you have transparency and community input, instead of behind-closed-doors, circular-logic, lacking-perspective, echo-chamber management WOTC uses for everything else.

It's definitely pushed me pretty much out of Modern indefinitely and laser focused on Commander in paper and Pioneer on MTGO. And unless something drastically changes, I expect many others to follow suit.

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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
True-Name Nemesis wrote:
1 year ago
You seem to be under the impression that we think bans are the only way. I assure you that you are sorely wrong about this.

WoTC needs to have short, mid and long term plans for Modern, and they need to execute all of these with very little margin of error.

The only area we disagree is what has to be prioritised.

For many of us, the priority is to keep players wanting to play Modern in the short term, and the best way to do this is bans and unbans. It's no coincidence that over the past couple years, the format has been the most enjoyable in the immediate aftermath following big unbans (Jace, BBE, SFM), no matter how short-lived that hype was.

Bans and unbans buys them time and goodwill to implement whatever they need to implement. You're right when you say that design philosophy etc needs to change. It's imperative but it doesn't matter if they don't have time to do it.
We might not even disagree at all. I've literally proposed bans in the last few pages. I fully agree Wizards needs to ban cards starting with nonsense like Oko and Veil, extending to things like Lattice, probably including Urza, and considering widespread sideboard nerfs to some of these linear, less interactive decks. Bans 100% need to happen. But bans alone are completely and utterly meaningless unless they come with some kind of immediate, clear statement from Wizards on Modern's future. Everyone is clamoring for bans now. There are very few people who are clamoring with the same intensity for some direction and clarity from Wizards. That needs to change and every time people focus on bans, they do so at the expense of those larger issues.

These issues can and do coexist. But every time someone mentions bans, they also need to mention the core Modern issues and the dire need for Wizards to publish a series of statements (with legitimate follow-up) on those issues.
Because the crux of it at the end of the day to the average Modern player is this. Is Modern fun?

WoTC is in the business of entertainment and Modern is just one of the products in their portfolio. If Modern is enjoyable and well-received, there is incentive for them to further support Modern on Arena or whatever. Fun comes first, balance is secondary - it just needs to not be terrible.

Personally I'm completely indifferent about whether or not Modern is in WoTC's plans for arena.

But what I do know is, businesses want to monetize good products. That's why there is more focus on how to make more Modern more enjoyable in the short term. And it's not because i'm purposefully ignoring core issues with design etc. Because changes in design philosophy and the such, we might not even see the results for months or even years.

In that sense, it's really just a chicken/egg thing.

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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

I fully agree with a lot of the sentiments recently said here, as I have said since a while ago, fun needs to have a guaranteed seat at the table, for a long time now in Modern, it has not, and now it is finally paying the price for this. You cannot make a successful format from the vantage point of a spreadsheet, acting like anyone can is absurd. I have always been in favour of sweeping bans myself, as many others have pointed out here, the long term philosophy of Modern is irrelevant if it doesn't survive in the short term, and the more people who leave in the short term, the less incentive there is for Wotc to even attempt to pick up the broker pieces, we see this routinely in video games as well, take Artifact, the Valve TCG, because of how much of the player base it lost, Valve has all but abandoned it, as they should.

To take a further step back though, I would say that 2020 has the potential to be a very damaging year for both Modern, and MTG in general, after all MTG is just a leisure time hobby, and there are many others that people can choose from, and the first 2 quarters of 2020 have A LOT of high profile video games being released very quickly, combine that with the current tenuous and deteriorating state of Modern, and I don't see how the format bounces back, its just not realistic, and by making Pioneer, it is clear Wotc is content with shirking it's prior responsibility to manage Modern and to simply watch it all burn down and come back every now and then to monetize the remaining players.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

In the long term Modern needs to redefine itself. What has Modern to offer in terms of gameplay that is better than Pioneer? Honestly nothing. Format defining cards are among the most hated ones like Tronlands, Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge. Then there is a huge gap between cards people wish they could play but aren't legal like Counterspell. If Modern wants to survive the competition with Pioneer it must offer players something really fun and distinctive. Current Modern will die within 6 months, that process has been set in motion and is irrevocable. Legacy has its own problems mainly the RL. Modern could be the format between Legacy and Pioneer by bridging the gap of the RL with Standard. Make Modern start at Mercadian Masques, the first set without RL. A ton of cards that have fallen out of favor in Legacy would find a new home like UG Madness, Landstill, prison decks, Vindicate, Pernicous Deed to name a few. It would re-spark the interest in Modern and provide a huge bunch of cards that could answer a lot of the threats Modern currently can't deal with.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
In the long term Modern needs to redefine itself. What has Modern to offer in terms of gameplay that is better than Pioneer? Honestly nothing. Format defining cards are among the most hated ones like Tronlands, Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge. Then there is a huge gap between cards people wish they could play but aren't legal like Counterspell. If Modern wants to survive the competition with Pioneer it must offer players something really fun and distinctive. Current Modern will die within 6 months, that process has been set in motion and is irrevocable. Legacy has its own problems mainly the RL. Modern could be the format between Legacy and Pioneer by bridging the gap of the RL with Standard. Make Modern start at Mercadian Masques, the first set without RL. A ton of cards that have fallen out of favor in Legacy would find a new home like UG Madness, Landstill, prison decks, Vindicate, Pernicous Deed to name a few. It would re-spark the interest in Modern and provide a huge bunch of cards that could answer a lot of the threats Modern currently can't deal with.
It's not a terrible idea. At least in this suggestion modern gains an identity separate from Legacy and Pioneer. It's need not go all the way to merq masqs though. I bet there are some really great conversations about where the start point could be. Give the people their toys!
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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 1 year ago

There's also SCG Team Modern happening this weekend. Not unified so there are no deck restrictions.

Lack of coverage is something that the magic community as a whole has been lamenting. So when we finally get one and it's like this...

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It's a pretty bad look.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

True-Name Nemesis wrote:
1 year ago
There's also SCG Team Modern happening this weekend. Not unified so there are no deck restrictions.

Lack of coverage is something that the magic community as a whole has been lamenting. So when we finally get one and it's like this...



It's a pretty bad look.
I think I finally understand the rationale for stopping video coverage. Hard to complain about stuff when there's no meaningful data and there's no spotlight shined on it.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Guys, I can't emphasize this enough. Stop focusing on bans/unbans as the source of Modern's problems. Modern has legitimate, foundational issues right now that need to be addressed that are significantly more problematic than any card currently legal in the format. Wizards could get the perfect combination of bans/unbans on Monday of next week and it wouldn't matter for Modern's future unless they address the other issues.
With all due respect (and I mean that, I do respect you and your views)...

Modern is not worth fighting for. We know, I agree, that Pioneer/Arena are fundamentally problematic for Modern but it doesnt matter.

I've had a particularly brutal view on the format for years, many many of you have disagreed with me since MTGS, but I WAS NOT WRONG.

Modern has not been good, or healthy, or YEARS. Its simply not worth fighting for if they do not AGGRESSIVELY curate the format.

Pioneer will replace it, because theres nothing worth saving. That screenshot is just one of many over YEARS, that prove it.
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Titan and 2 urza versus urza and 2 titan at this moment. That's not acceptable guys, really not... Stream is full with this sort of games

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cfusionpm
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
Titan and 2 urza versus urza and 2 titan at this moment. That's not acceptable guys, really not... Stream is full with this sort of games
Was just gonna post that myself. This is peak galaxy brain Modern right now.
lolrza.PNG

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
I think I finally understand the rationale for stopping video coverage. Hard to complain about stuff when there's no meaningful data and there's no spotlight shined on it.
Again, let's not attribute these kinds of actions to unfounded, hyperbolic conspiracy theories. Wizards pulled back video coverage across the board to switch focus to esports, promote Arena, and cut costs in an area they are trying to reduce overall (paper Magic). This has absolutely nothing to do with deliberately hiding a negative Modern metagame. It also hasn't worked at all because people have complained about every format from Modern through Standard for all of 2019 despite the lack of coverage. Modern has real, significant issues that must be discussed. Don't muddle that with unsupported conspiracy theories.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Modern is not worth fighting for. We know, I agree, that Pioneer/Arena are fundamentally problematic for Modern but it doesnt matter.

I've had a particularly brutal view on the format for years, many many of you have disagreed with me since MTGS, but I WAS NOT WRONG.
I still disagree and still think you were wrong. Massive bannings 2 years ago wouldn't solve our current problem and wouldn't fix the dire threat Pioneer poses to Modern. We both agree that bans are an integral part of regaining format stability and recapturing player interest/confidence. But that doesn't mean we should promote a revisionist position where all the ban mania and negativity since 2016 was justified. Most of it still wasn't. Modern was healthy for most of 2017 and 2018 and saw tons of engagement and competitive diversity. Unfortunately, Wizards' position and printings in 2019 completely undid those years.
Modern has not been good, or healthy, or YEARS. Its simply not worth fighting for if they do not AGGRESSIVELY curate the format.

Pioneer will replace it, because theres nothing worth saving. That screenshot is just one of many over YEARS, that prove it.
Modern is absolutely worth saving because the card pool is deeper, richer, and offers better safety mechanisms than Pioneer's. I also agree Wizards needs to do some aggressive bans to do this, but it is just as important that they lay out a clear vision and mission for Modern in an era of Pioneer. If we don't have this long-term stability, players will continue to flee, cash out, and lose interest every time Wizards re-breaks the format and/or gets the bans/unbans wrong, which is VIRTUALLY GUARANTEED to keep happening giving Play Design's 2019 failures which are likely to continue into 2020 and beyond.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

It's deeper, but that does not translate to the actual winners meta. Set after set after set is added, but it 'net' add's nothing. We have looked at this before.

Its a fake rotation.

Ban's 2 years ago, and some of the right unban's, would have set a bar. 'This kind of gameplay is not acceptable and does not match our vision for how Modern should function.'

Instead, they let things fester, to the point where you fall into 1 of 3 camps.

1. Spike - Will play the best deck, and dont care about anything else.
2. Exhausted with the state of the format and/or you lost your deck. - Diversity is an illusion, and you know its not improving.
3. Casual, you continue to play your deck and you dont care that its not tier 1, because you can win at your FNM.

I'd have to go look, but I think saying even most of 2018 was good, was probably not accurate, and its now 2020. Its still be years of bad magic, for half a decade.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
I don't understand why Modern diehards in this thread don't understand the crisis issue.
I definitely understand the crisis issue and I am pretty sure Mtgthewary also does. I have made a lot of post about those issues. Those are medium-long term issues and I agree with all of them. I am also talking about things that affect Modern in the short term. The opportunity cost of collecting data and sacrificing event after event jeopardizing the format's health for months is a serious issue that has serious repercussions in the short term. You can fix every long term issue but if people are leaving in the short term then those people are likely not coming back. If you sell your cards now at an all time low and lets say Moderns long term health is fixed in a year from now, then the prices might rise (investors, shops buying cards etc) and people who sold out this year and already took a big loss aren't going to pay premium prices next year. Also people who sell out of Modern and buy into Pioneer or even Legacy will have their cash tied up in those formats and are also not coming back.
Short term bans don't fix anything. The big issue here is that a short term solution is essentially just some bans designed at being a format shakeup. These get players excited because unsolved metas are inherently more interesting. But it also invalidates all previous ban decisions and these shakeups can only be done in limited numbers because it destroys player confidence as the expensive cards they buy cease to be meta players and they need to buy other expensive cards.

Short term solutions can maybe save a single event as an emergency measure, but that's all and repeated short term solutions is a guaranteed format killer, faster than not using any such solutions is.

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