[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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cfusionpm
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Card Slinger J wrote:
1 year ago
According to MTGLion on YouTube, apparently the MPL (Magic Pro League) was nothing but a scam to reward people who are bad at playing MTG competitively and to make things worse a Wizards employee had to beg on his knees just to get an invite to the Mythic Championships. Looking at this makes Star City Games and Channel Fireball much more credible when it comes to Competitive MTG doesn't it?
Please don't put any credence into what that lazy, ostracized, clickbait troll, drama queen has to say. This individual, much like Jeremy Hambly (MTG Headquarters/Unsleeved Media), spends considerable amounts of time and effort systematically trolling and harassing WOTC, the game of Magic, and everyone in the community they can.

I'm honestly shocked he still makes videos. I thought he gave up that shtick years ago.
Well I can't speak for Jeremy Hambly (MTG Headquarters/Unsleeved Media/The Quartering) since what he did to Christine Sprankle was wrong. Tony Guo (MTGLion) on the other hand has some valid points about his concerns with the MTG Community nowadays where WOTC is rewarding people for bad behavior while setting a bad example for younger generations who'd be interested in playing Paper MTG.

Terese Nielsen was even bullied on Social Media for being a conservative when it shouldn't even matter what someone's political beliefs are. Social Media platforms like Facebook and Twitter don't represent the MTG Community in a way that local playgroups at your LGS and message board forums do. All it does is allow contracted players to bully others instead of being passionate about what's more important, Magic: The Gathering as a game we all love and hold dear.
His needless and endless personal tirades against community members, like Wedge and the Professor specifically, are pretty glaring examples of the obsessive harassment he claims to be so offended by. Hard to take anything he says seriously, when his angle is always some petty personal ax to grind, when it's not some random conspiracy theory. Not really worth discussing further, especially here. He's a nobody for a reason.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

i'm a big mtglion fan. he dwells too much on pro players and other youtubers. his videos are unfocused and all over the place. he needs to go back to speculation videos. i don't usually criticize him as i would personally be terrible at making my own youtube videos too. and some of the cheating with the pro players should be discussed. i guess i listen to him because he's unhappy with the state of magic overall and i share that sentiment.

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Card Slinger J
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Post by Card Slinger J » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
i'm a big mtglion fan. he dwells too much on pro players and other youtubers. his videos are unfocused and all over the place. he needs to go back to speculation videos. i don't usually criticize him as i would personally be terrible at making my own youtube videos too. and some of the cheating with the pro players should be discussed. i guess i listen to him because he's unhappy with the state of magic overall and i share that sentiment.
If he's really upset with the current state of MTG right now then he needs to put his money where his mouth is and sell out while he still can. No sense posting the same topic over and over on his YouTube channel. I share his sentiment too except I ignore the politics and enjoy the game for what it is which is something he has trouble doing. His LGS went out of business and he doesn't have a local playgroup to play MTG, I get that but complaining about it isn't going to help.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
His needless and endless personal tirades against community members, like Wedge and the Professor specifically, are pretty glaring examples of the obsessive harassment he claims to be so offended by. Hard to take anything he says seriously, when his angle is always some petty personal ax to grind, when it's not some random conspiracy theory. Not really worth discussing further, especially here. He's a nobody for a reason.
I guess we live in a society now where it's become more difficult to distinguish between criticism and harassment. I'll end that conversation there since this is supposed to be about the current state of the Modern format which to be fair is more than likely going to be replaced by Pioneer. I'm guessing what's holding it back is that everyone saw what happened to Extended, then came Modern, and now here we are.
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
Yes I can explain the difference. WOTC in that announcement says that they have decided to focus efforts on other constructed formats. In our recent announcements regarding modern and pioneer they are saying something very different. They are saying they intend to continue supporting modern. That is the difference, the intent and planning for the future.
They could change their minds in the future or be strait up dishonest right now, but that does not appear to be the plan. The sky is not falling, modern is being diminished but it is not dead and their do not appear to be plans to kill it soon. Is it possible they kill modern off entirely in the next year or two? Yes it is. Is it possible we still have a modern protour in a year or two? Yes that is possible too. We do not know what they will do, but they have not killed modern yet and that is all that is certain.
The subtext of the most recent announcement was pretty clear to me. They intend to continue supporting Modern...during the transition period. Modern has been really jacked up for the last few years despite heavy banlist changes and cards printed specifically to help the format. Even if Pioneer didn't exist, the format would be in jeopardy due to not being fun for too many people for too many years.

WOTC could have just said "Modern's gone, Pioneer is the new Modern format", but the backlash after the year we had in Modern would have been too much. They have to cater to the format fanatics for a couple more years otherwise they look like heartless tyrants. Make no mistake though, as soon as they can tactfully delete the Modern format...it's gone. In a few years the card pool differences will be laughable even to the Modern fanatics.

Get off the broken down bus that is Modern now and start riding the Pioneer bullet train to the future of low powered eternal Magic.
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Amalgam wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Amalgam wrote:
1 year ago


The difference was extended was barely ever played. Modern right now even is far larger than extended ever was
Read the announcement Dr Mark linked. Can you list any compelling reason to think ALL of that doesn't apply to Modern?

"Too many formats can fracture a player base, so we've decided to focus efforts on our other Constructed formats."
I did read it and also played extended back in the day. The key is context and this is not the same as back then, not even close.
Extended might as well have not existed at all when Modern was announced and even then it took Modern a couple of years to gain any form of momentum and take off
Extended was not a loved format and even increased and decreased the number of sets in the format more than once in an attempt to improve it. Extended being unloved and overall a format that was only played during it's season every year as the playerbase felt like they were forced to play it. Extended being so bad is the main reason for Modern's existence in the first place, while on the other hand Modern has had multiple times in the past where it's popularity has exceeded standards on both paper and online


But the announcement was a couple of years after Modern, almost 3 perhaps. Do you think Modern will be here in 3 years, regardless of unbans/bans? Those Thursday evening slots at LGS say otherwise.
Modern got huge support, extended died, partly due to Modern, partly due to a little mismanagement at times, but mainly due to Modern fulfilling the needs of the extended crowd. Legacy was Legacy, with the RL list and all. Modern was new, shiny, and more accessible, there was no need for much in between. The wild west of the Modern format and aggressive banlist are similar to Pioneer today, even if the process of bannings is different- who says they don't learn? I played extended too- my only ptq top 8- I only did 3 as I never enjoyed the travel and was hard headed about cash- and the one I top 8'd was extended. I liked the format, but after Modern the scene slowed to a trickle in Europe after Modern.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

More stuff
The aims of Modern
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2011-05-27

and guess which format moved to make way for Modern two months later?

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2011-08-12

and a mere 6 months after the announcement

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2011-11-04

Finally this article specifically states attendance at Extended was in line with previous years,
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2011-08-12

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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 1 year ago

The main takeaway from that for me seems to be that nobody was playing Extended outside of the times when they HAD to play it on the GP/PT circuit.

And Modern, for all its flaws hasn't sunk that low.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

WOTC killed extended for modern, no doubt. I played at that time I remember. Extended is not a perfect comparison to modern in this situation. Extended was a rotating format and it didn't go back in time as far as modern did. It also had a smaller player base, didn't have a line of product directly marketed to it (masters sets) and I'm sure there are more differences, Modern had a larger card pool, a promise of non-rotation and when combined with the new exciting shiny object effect extended quickly died. The past can be a rough roadmap for the future, but one can just as easily learn from the mistakes of the past to improve the outcome for a different future.

Pioneer is a smaller card pool than modern, anyone looking at pioneer as a non-rotating format to play forever sees what is happening with modern and that image is less romantic than was being sold to us at the time.

Can we simply agree that we are not sure what the future holds? They could kill modern tomorrow or we could still be arguing about how they secretly plan to kill it in 2023, either of those possibilities are possible. It simply is not a conclusion that can be reached TODAY that modern is dead or will die on short order.

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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
Can we simply agree that we are not sure what the future holds? They could kill modern tomorrow or we could still be arguing about how they secretly plan to kill it in 2023, either of those possibilities are possible. It simply is not a conclusion that can be reached TODAY that modern is dead or will die on short order.
In some sense this is exactly the reason for the panic, because so much of the future of Modern is unknown and uncertain. Don't get me wrong, Wotc's words wont actually fix anything or relief concern in my mind, only the actions they take, because the only thing that can do anything for Modern is action, I just don't think we are going to get anything meaningful myself simply because there is no logical reason for Wotc to do so.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
1 year ago
I guess we live in a society now where it's become more difficult to distinguish between criticism and harassment. I'll end that conversation there
I dont want to dwell on this, but what he does it's not criticism. While this video is directed at Hambly, much of the content (and many images) are mirrors Lion's content of the era, or ripped directly from his channel. If anything has changed since then, it's hard to tell. Especially since he has continually lost subscribers over the last 2 years, and struggles to get a couple hundred views on any recent video. This isn't about criticism, this is about some whining, petty troll, lazily rambling into a mic attacking people. Please don't validate individuals like this, whether they accidentally make a valid point or not.

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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

Personally I don't think I really like any of the youtube MTG content creators, I don't think virtually any of them make relevant points, even the professor. I used to think the professor was great but after enough time watching him it kind of ended up seeming that all he does is parrot whatever the reddit echo chamber talks about, which on some level isn't inherently bad, its just not good or insightful in my opinion. For a while he had a debate series going but it was pretty cringe and honestly the actual debate topics were usually very low-hanging fruit as well he would rarely debate people who seemed genuinely passionate about their debate positions. As for the rest of the youtube content creators, they are even more cringe.

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

So ugly

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

So I guess the real question is when do I try to dump my MTGO Okos?

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Modern shows it's ugly face again in another Urza - Mox Opal variant, that's got to be one of the better, but powerful toxic decks I have ever seen in my life.

January, 20th can't come soon enough, so that Urza/Opal, Veil, Oko all get banned into oblivion.

LOL.png
Why are you pulling a deck that only has league results and a single 3-2 preliminary result as gospel? There is no new deck, this one in particular has zero results at all. If I built a faerie deck and 5-0 an MTGO league would that then be considered tier 0 omg please ban as well? You guys can be unbelievable with the levels you stoop to sometimes when it comes to trying to push your narrative. An MTGO league is a glorified FNM and it only shows different decks rather than a picture of what is consistently winning as wizards limits the data.
Don't get me wrong Urza is a strong deck but it isn't out performing any of the other top contenders right now in Eldrazi Tron, Shadow, Amulet Titan and Bant control.
If you want meaningful results the last Prelimnary was won by Bant Control and the last challenge by Eldrazi tron. Yes Urza is also winning events like any tier one deck would but you need to paint the whole picture rather than just push blind hate.
Maybe it would help if you presented data from the last few collections of events Mocs/Challenge/4-1 prelimary results to get a better overall picture of the metagame.
The one thing that is certain right now is Oko/Veil continue to hold 50% of all top 8 modern results over a variety of different decks.
Last edited by Amalgam 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

We know League data is incredibly flawed. At least I do (and have frequently argued its irrelevance).

At this point, we just have to point and laugh at the Urza/Opal/Oko decks and how it doesn't seem to matter how you build them, they do well regardless.

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
We know League data is incredibly flawed. At least I do (and have frequently argued its irrelevance).

At this point, we just have to point and laugh at the Urza/Opal/Oko decks and how it doesn't seem to matter how you build them, they do well regardless.
I wouldn't exactly call 3x 5-0 league results and a single 3-2 preliminary result as doing well though. It's going to show up on most reported league results anyway as it's a different list than normal

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I can't imagine me having fun playing against this pile that try to destroy your lands in the way it does, while playing really powerful cards and having a decent plan B. I don't believe this deck will dominate modern, but it's an extremely ugly list.

Anyways, I am not basing any bans off of this. I am basing bans base to other, more powerful/common lists. It's just that there are a million Urza-Opal variations and that's not a good sign, and those variants keep coming.
Then why use it as an example when it's a cheery picked list and the only Urza deck being played and getting results right now is Sultai Urza. Also so what if other decks find ways to make Urza-Opal work? Can I use the same example to group other types of decks together as well? What about using your favorite example of twin then which has 3-4 different varients or snapcaster that was played in a variety of different decks as well.
I understand it might be a feels bad deck such as Griselshoalbrand or Neoform but it doesn't make those decks good.
Oko/veil will probably be banned sometime this month or over the next few months, Urza probably following if the meta deviates in that direction post banning. But remember we haven't even seen what modern looks like in this scenario yet and impossible to tell without a full meta game shift such as Oko/veil would create.
Also I have no doubt we have many more Oko/Veil/Ouat type cards that will be printed this year and in turn continue to wreck every format in the game including Modern, this is only the beginning

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Maybe I should not use it, I know it's your money and your deck we are takling about. I used it because I noticed a difference with some other similar ultra unfun decks. This deck is powerful just because it utilizes Urza in a great shell.

Being such a toxic deck and being kind of powerful, is a fear combination.
I have long sold out of the deck even if I used to play it 2 months prior. I would defend other decks I have never played in the same scenario where I don't believe it is justified. The Ban mania wizards has created from standard/modern/pioneer is next to insane at this point and we can't just continuously ban cards and can be seen anywhere you go. If they ban Oko/Veil and following Urza becomes clearly a tier 0 deck at that point I would be there right with you asking for a ban, but with how modern is right now I don't believe we can make that call.

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Post by Mapccu » 1 year ago

Amalgam wrote:
1 year ago
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I can't imagine me having fun playing against this pile that try to destroy your lands in the way it does, while playing really powerful cards and having a decent plan B. I don't believe this deck will dominate modern, but it's an extremely ugly list.

Anyways, I am not basing any bans off of this. I am basing bans base to other, more powerful/common lists. It's just that there are a million Urza-Opal variations and that's not a good sign, and those variants keep coming.
Then why use it as an example when it's a cheery picked list and the only Urza deck being played and getting results right now is Sultai Urza. Also so what if other decks find ways to make Urza-Opal work? Can I use the same example to group other types of decks together as well? What about using your favorite example of twin then which has 3-4 different varients or snapcaster that was played in a variety of different decks as well.
I understand it might be a feels bad deck such as Griselshoalbrand or Neoform but it doesn't make those decks good.
Oko/veil will probably be banned sometime this month or over the next few months, Urza probably following if the meta deviates in that direction post banning. But remember we haven't even seen what modern looks like in this scenario yet and impossible to tell without a full meta game shift such as Oko/veil would create.
Also I have no doubt we have many more Oko/Veil/Ouat type cards that will be printed this year and in turn continue to wreck every format in the game including Modern, this is only the beginning
The bar to impact modern is pretty high. Even something like the new heliod and walking ballista combo may not have the chops to cut it in the format and that's a 3 cmc indestructible clock under different conditions. I don't think the format is going to be in this constant chaos everyone keeps alluding to. They do have some work to do, granted. I do think there is a sweet spot and honestly we're not too far from it.

Oko is probably an okay PL for the format, because at 4 cmc you have cards like jace that can also just run away with a game better if left unchecked.. OuaT is free, and we know free is dangerous by now. Veil is fine, I don't think color hate has been a viable sideboard strat for sometime in the format. For example, tapping out for oko looks embarrassing when an opponent eot cocos for infinite damage. Oko is relevant because artifact strats have been top of the heap for some months now, even during hogaak we saw modest results from urza decks.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Oko is unquestionably more powerful than Jace, in Modern.

It's not even close.
UR Control UR

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

I would argue Oko is stronger than jace in every single format in the game including vintage

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Dealt with him quite well in Legacy tonight. I am pretty sure both Vintage and Legacy don't have an issue with him, beyond the astrolabe/veil package coming with him and creeping into too much.

Modern- yeah, too much for 3 mana.

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

You can of course deal with him in legacy, he just currently has more impact on that format than Jace. Most lists are running 0-1 jace in legacy now for one

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Post by Mapccu » 1 year ago

I can honestly say I'm not sure I've run very many decks in modern that would lose to a resolved oko that stuck around for 3 turns if I wasn't losing already. If I'm going to lose to 3/3 elks, I was going to lose to whatever PW win condition that deck was running before oko (Gideon, ally of zendikar, elspeth, suns champion, etc).

I agree the card is bonkers in other formats. Weaker formats with less powerful answers.

I don't agree that it's bonkers in modern. It's another strong card doing strong things. There are plenty of decks that can just ignore him that are plenty capable of spiking a local tournament. A 3/3 every other round is not that threatening. A 3/3 for me turns all my hyper efficient 1-2 mana doodads into elks that are now punching above their cmc. Again, not a bad place to be.

Oko isn't the problem in my eyes. Artifact decks with 4 angles of attack are the problem. Oko is being run because it gives the deck another grindy game plan and is good in the mirror (the deck is starting to warp to itself, which has historically been a red flag). Oko didn't make the deck, he just slots into it because he's good for it and against it.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

I can summarize the past 2 years of Modern in 1 sentence: It is the tragedy of Modern that we must endure so much pain before arriving at a compromise that we always knew was going to be needed.

We all know at this point Urza/Oko/Veil are broken. We all know that the majority is sick and tired of Urzatron. Same with Faithless Loothing. The banning was a year overdue. And now we have to wait until mid January. Why? Urza has already been legal for 6 months, what is 2 weeks going to matter? Modern is about waiting for Wizards to act and most of the times they don't. All Wizards has done is sacrificing event after event after event to collect data to take a decision we all knew was coming anyways. Just FFS take these decisions timely for once because we all know in the end they will be taken and in the meantime the playerbase is suffering and quitting and losing consumer trust.

Its common knowledge that the worst a company can do is to 'sell no'. Wizards has sold us no way too many times the past 2 years. Each time people cancelled their plans to attend a Modern tourney made them rethink their engagement with the format. Each time people said 'well the format doesn't look fun and balanced now I will skip this GP, Magicfest, FNM's etc" is a potential moment that person is lost forever. If you can't play you might as well sell up and go play something else and that is what we have been witnessing the past 2-3 months. The mismanagement of Modern as a whole the past 2 years (and the repercussions of Magic design 2019 as a whole) had very high costs and we are seeing that now because of Pioneer. The people who sold their cards recently sold them at an all time low and they are still declining. Consumer trust in Modern has been obliterated, Nobody in his right mind is going to spend money on Modern.

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