[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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drmarkb
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

I think they figure that Modern players who %$#% about the format will just move on. The consumer confidence loss in the product won't be that great from Legacy, for as long as Mtgo is about. That ship sailed ages ago, and the community stepped up.
They actively need players to lose confidence in Modern in order to ensure Pioneer success.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

I just don't agree. Modern is having problems, but they will be addressed soon. When modern was made WOTC did not intentionally hurt legacy or standard. The modern player base has frequently complained so it is not a surprise we are complaining at the time a new format is developing, that is likely coincidence. WOTC has supported multiple formats for years and will continue to do so each with varying degrees of attention, curation, new products and success.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Tomatotime wrote:
1 year ago
A couple things, firstly, even if they have some secret plan to at some point make Modern in Arena a reality, until they actually come out and put on the public development roadmap, it is pure conjecture and won't improve format confidence. Second, do you have a plan in mind for actually bringing your views and opinion to the attention of Wotc or others who can do so on your behalf. As much as some amount of the conversation in this thread can be helpful, unless someone important hears it, it doesn't necessarily amount to anything.
I'll just write some more articles, put them on Reddit, and Tweet them at certain staff members. My older articles on Modern Nexus had significant traffic, online exposure in Modern circles, and similar Tweets aimed at relevant R&D people, so it seemed likely the powers that be were reading them. Forsythe's April 2016 "Where Modern Goes From Here" addressed two of the biggest issues I raised in March 2016 articles, so either he was reading them or they just contributed to a wave that pushed him to write the article. My =recent stuff has been more on the metagame statistics side than format management, but I'm sure Wizards' team (who we know is active on the MTG subreddits) saw them in some capacity.

As for the Historic cards on Arena, I know it's pure conjecture and I hope nothing in my previous post suggested otherwise. I am currently operating from the standpoint of Pioneer coming to Arena, Modern not coming to Arena, and this combining with other Modern issues to represent a grave format threat.
Arena support for Modern tomorrow wouldnt be enough. Arena isn't even competitive MTG it's the casual room of MTGO with a fancy skin on it. No tourney or pro support for Arena remember? It would be a very strange mixed signal for them to add Modern there. Adding Pioneer to Arena makes perfect sense on the other hand.

Modern has no future, it has no identity in a world that has Pioneer. Legacy has more of a future than Modern, Legacy could even surge to new heights IF WOTC took a bold stand and dissolved the broken Modern format. Then SSG and others could do Pioneer and a bit of Legacy like before.
Robert Leva
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't agree. Modern is having problems, but they will be addressed soon. When modern was made WOTC did not intentionally hurt legacy or standard. The modern player base has frequently complained so it is not a surprise we are complaining at the time a new format is developing, that is likely coincidence. WOTC has supported multiple formats for years and will continue to do so each with varying degrees of attention, curation, new products and success.
this is also what I believe will happen. :)
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't agree. Modern is having problems, but they will be addressed soon. When modern was made WOTC did not intentionally hurt legacy or standard. The modern player base has frequently complained so it is not a surprise we are complaining at the time a new format is developing, that is likely coincidence. WOTC has supported multiple formats for years and will continue to do so each with varying degrees of attention, curation, new products and success.
This isn't really accurate though. Because when Modern was released, although format adoption for the first couple years was slow, they had no other non rotating format other than Legacy, and Legacy has a finite cap due to the RL. Modern was meant to include everything after that. The lack of a RL was essentially the defining feature, with a secondary feature being how cards entered the format.

Once adoption picked up on Modern there was a large push to marginalize Legacy, at least in paper.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Well, I guess this is the final word on Preordain.
FB_IMG_1577984357253.jpg

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Gotta clutter up the board with crap somehow right?

That said, its not at all a bad card.
UR Control UR

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Gotta clutter up the board with crap somehow right?

That said, its not at all a bad card.
Is it that much better than Anticipate?

I mean, I'll buy foil copies and jam it because I'm a glutton for punishment, but iduno.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Yeah probably.

Devotion matters, and eventually you can just crack it for additional value.
UR Control UR

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Yeah probably.

Devotion matters, and eventually you can just crack it for additional value.
Yeah, I mean, it is better, but is it better enough to justify the extra mana over the 0-1cmc cantrips? I honestly haven't been playing much Modern lately, but the brutal speed and efficiency seems to tax every mana every turn.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Oh, I dont know about that. Honestly this thread has become a general discussion on Magic alone, not so much Modern.

Card's that matter to Modern alone, are a minority in the extreme.
UR Control UR

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't agree. Modern is having problems, but they will be addressed soon. When modern was made WOTC did not intentionally hurt legacy or standard. The modern player base has frequently complained so it is not a surprise we are complaining at the time a new format is developing, that is likely coincidence. WOTC has supported multiple formats for years and will continue to do so each with varying degrees of attention, curation, new products and success.
This isn't really accurate though. Because when Modern was released, although format adoption for the first couple years was slow, they had no other non rotating format other than Legacy, and Legacy has a finite cap due to the RL. Modern was meant to include everything after that. The lack of a RL was essentially the defining feature, with a secondary feature being how cards entered the format.

Once adoption picked up on Modern there was a large push to marginalize Legacy, at least in paper.
I still don't agree. We have some legacy support still including masters sets, gp's and a legacy pro tour in aug 2018. (Edh precon decks, planechase decks and such also contain legacy chase cards or new cards for legacy, true-name nemesis and shardless agent come to mind among others from those products)

That may not be alot of support for legacy but there are new products and some big events and I call that "support". There is room for multiple formats to exist with different levels of support and that is ok. Modern may be diminished by pioneer but it will not die.

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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
I still don't agree. We have some legacy support still including masters sets, gp's and a legacy pro tour in aug 2018. (Edh precon decks, planechase decks and such also contain legacy chase cards or new cards for legacy, true-name nemesis and shardless agent come to mind among others from those products)

That may not be alot of support for legacy but there are new products and some big events and I call that "support". There is room for multiple formats to exist with different levels of support and that is ok. Modern may be diminished by pioneer but it will not die.
I would caution against conflating support for monetization. Does Wotc freely facilitate paper "loot boxes" to "help" Legacy from time to time? Sure, does this actually result in increasing trends for paper Legacy events? I don't think so. I think the only format right now that has consistently been given genuine support products is basically Commander, the other formats simply get monetized.

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Oh, I dont know about that. Honestly this thread has become a general discussion on Magic alone, not so much Modern.

Card's that matter to Modern alone, are a minority in the extreme.
Guess that's what happens when you print legacy level threats in standard. Every format in the game takes a hit

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

Tomatotime wrote:
1 year ago
metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
I still don't agree. We have some legacy support still including masters sets, gp's and a legacy pro tour in aug 2018. (Edh precon decks, planechase decks and such also contain legacy chase cards or new cards for legacy, true-name nemesis and shardless agent come to mind among others from those products)

That may not be alot of support for legacy but there are new products and some big events and I call that "support". There is room for multiple formats to exist with different levels of support and that is ok. Modern may be diminished by pioneer but it will not die.
I would caution against conflating support for monetization. Does Wotc freely facilitate paper "loot boxes" to "help" Legacy from time to time? Sure, does this actually result in increasing trends for paper Legacy events? I don't think so. I think the only format right now that has consistently been given genuine support products is basically Commander, the other formats simply get monetized.
How about standard then? They also support standard and I don't think anyone would disagree. "Genuine support products" sound like a masters set to reduce prices and increase accessibility to me. Does that make them money, yes and so does the line of commander products. WOTC is a company and companies make money, I do not see a difference in support vs monetization. Creating and selling a product, in this case paper or digital cards, is what we want AND it makes them money and I call that support and support comes in many many forms.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Well, I guess this is the final word on Preordain.

FB_IMG_1577984357253.jpg
it is created for an enchantment themed block. Can be fetched with idyllic tutor that they recently reprinted.

Possibly usable even in decks that are not full of enchantments. For example, it's another card to enlarge goyf in my bant deck. Will test. :)
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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
How about standard then? They also support standard and I don't think anyone would disagree. "Genuine support products" sound like a masters set to reduce prices and increase accessibility to me. Does that make them money, yes and so does the line of commander products. WOTC is a company and companies make money, I do not see a difference in support vs monetization. Creating and selling a product, in this case paper or digital cards, is what we want AND it makes them money and I call that support and support comes in many many forms.
I was not very clear, let me explain the difference as I see it. On one hand we see masters set products, these products are not feasible for most regular people, this is because;

A) The price per box is quite high, so high that a lot of people can't justify the expense,
B) The result is ambiguous, you could open crap cards or useful ones,
C) Of the useful cards you do open, they might not actually be the ones YOU wanted to use.
D) Due to the overall booster box based design, the set overall is ALWAYS compromised to facilitate a limited environment as well as to conform to set collector number standards. An example would be how in MM15, all colors are required to have the same number of mythic rares, however, this isn't, or at least wasn't at the time relevant for Modern, if you don't believe me, go back to 2015 and choose 5 black mythic rares, versus choosing 5 red mythic rares, one will be much easier to do than the other simply as a product of format realities, even in a format with color diversity, that does not mean that the color diversity is expressed in terms of rarity as well, and booster box products do not recognize this fact.

Now lets examine a typical Commander product:

A) The individual price is MUCH lower, such that the product is actually accessible to the regular player of the format.
B) Due to the actual accessibility of the product, the player base of the commander format does not need to rely upon Modern Masters GP's to actually crack the product which is an antiquated and stupid concept from the get go.
C) The product can freely incorporate reprints and newly created cards as the designers want which can lead to some interesting cards even in prior product lines that were not as well received overall.
D) Due to the singleton nature of the product, the very concept of rarities is ultimately less of an issue, a card marked as uncommon in the product is technically just as rare as one marked as mythic in a vacuum.
E) The customers knows exactly what they are getting for their money. And history has shown that even from a finance perspective, commander products are fully invest-able as sealed product.

I hope this helps to clear some things up.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

I dont know that we are goiing to agree on support vs monetization. I see a edh precon and a modern masters set both as support, not just for the format they were designed for but also for legacy as it can use these cards too. Legacy players like to pick up cheaper goyfs just as much as modern players. Older formats get less support, but they get support none the less in various ways. If you disagree, that is fine but that is how I feel.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't agree. Modern is having problems, but they will be addressed soon. When modern was made WOTC did not intentionally hurt legacy or standard. The modern player base has frequently complained so it is not a surprise we are complaining at the time a new format is developing, that is likely coincidence. WOTC has supported multiple formats for years and will continue to do so each with varying degrees of attention, curation, new products and success.
Well the support for Legacy drastically tailed off when Modern came along, and they killed extended, which was the obvious format to die.
The parallels are there, for one to thrive the other must suffer. They can support multiple formats, but only so many. Look at the announcement to end extended.....

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2013-07-22

They retired the format, due to Modern. In other words, killed it outright a couple of years after Modern took off. The format, btw, was always good to sometimes excellent.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

Oh yes, they certainly killed extended to support modern but I have not seen conclusive evidence that makes certain the same fate would come to modern. A new announcement could happen anytime and modern would be dead and I would be completely wrong about continued support, but they could have done that at anytime before too and didn't. Without new info I'm not changing my position.

Diffrent topic: I know the B&R is targeted for mid Jan, but do we ecpect that to be Jan 13th or 20th? And do we expect a notification that the B&R is coming on X day or will the announcement just fall on us without notification?

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't agree. Modern is having problems, but they will be addressed soon. When modern was made WOTC did not intentionally hurt legacy or standard. The modern player base has frequently complained so it is not a surprise we are complaining at the time a new format is developing, that is likely coincidence. WOTC has supported multiple formats for years and will continue to do so each with varying degrees of attention, curation, new products and success.
Well the support for Legacy drastically tailed off when Modern came along, and they killed extended, which was the obvious format to die.
The parallels are there, for one to thrive the other must suffer. They can support multiple formats, but only so many. Look at the announcement to end extended.....

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2013-07-22

They retired the format, due to Modern. In other words, killed it outright a couple of years after Modern took off. The format, btw, was always good to sometimes excellent.
The difference was extended was barely ever played. Modern right now even is far larger than extended ever was

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

Amalgam wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
I just don't agree. Modern is having problems, but they will be addressed soon. When modern was made WOTC did not intentionally hurt legacy or standard. The modern player base has frequently complained so it is not a surprise we are complaining at the time a new format is developing, that is likely coincidence. WOTC has supported multiple formats for years and will continue to do so each with varying degrees of attention, curation, new products and success.
Well the support for Legacy drastically tailed off when Modern came along, and they killed extended, which was the obvious format to die.
The parallels are there, for one to thrive the other must suffer. They can support multiple formats, but only so many. Look at the announcement to end extended.....

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2013-07-22

They retired the format, due to Modern. In other words, killed it outright a couple of years after Modern took off. The format, btw, was always good to sometimes excellent.
The difference was extended was barely ever played. Modern right now even is far larger than extended ever was
Read the announcement Dr Mark linked. Can you list any compelling reason to think ALL of that doesn't apply to Modern?

"Too many formats can fracture a player base, so we've decided to focus efforts on our other Constructed formats."
Robert Leva
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

Yes I can explain the difference. WOTC in that announcement says that they have decided to focus efforts on other constructed formats. In our recent announcements regarding modern and pioneer they are saying something very different. They are saying they intend to continue supporting modern. That is the difference, the intent and planning for the future.
They could change their minds in the future or be strait up dishonest right now, but that does not appear to be the plan. The sky is not falling, modern is being diminished but it is not dead and their do not appear to be plans to kill it soon. Is it possible they kill modern off entirely in the next year or two? Yes it is. Is it possible we still have a modern protour in a year or two? Yes that is possible too. We do not know what they will do, but they have not killed modern yet and that is all that is certain.
Last edited by metalmusic_4 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Amalgam wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago


Well the support for Legacy drastically tailed off when Modern came along, and they killed extended, which was the obvious format to die.
The parallels are there, for one to thrive the other must suffer. They can support multiple formats, but only so many. Look at the announcement to end extended.....

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2013-07-22

They retired the format, due to Modern. In other words, killed it outright a couple of years after Modern took off. The format, btw, was always good to sometimes excellent.
The difference was extended was barely ever played. Modern right now even is far larger than extended ever was
Read the announcement Dr Mark linked. Can you list any compelling reason to think ALL of that doesn't apply to Modern?

"Too many formats can fracture a player base, so we've decided to focus efforts on our other Constructed formats."
I did read it and also played extended back in the day. The key is context and this is not the same as back then, not even close.
Extended might as well have not existed at all when Modern was announced and even then it took Modern a couple of years to gain any form of momentum and take off
Extended was not a loved format and even increased and decreased the number of sets in the format more than once in an attempt to improve it. Extended being unloved and overall a format that was only played during it's season every year as the playerbase felt like they were forced to play it. Extended being so bad is the main reason for Modern's existence in the first place, while on the other hand Modern has had multiple times in the past where it's popularity has exceeded standards on both paper and online

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Post by Card Slinger J » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Card Slinger J wrote:
1 year ago
According to MTGLion on YouTube, apparently the MPL (Magic Pro League) was nothing but a scam to reward people who are bad at playing MTG competitively and to make things worse a Wizards employee had to beg on his knees just to get an invite to the Mythic Championships. Looking at this makes Star City Games and Channel Fireball much more credible when it comes to Competitive MTG doesn't it?
Please don't put any credence into what that lazy, ostracized, clickbait troll, drama queen has to say. This individual, much like Jeremy Hambly (MTG Headquarters/Unsleeved Media), spends considerable amounts of time and effort systematically trolling and harassing WOTC, the game of Magic, and everyone in the community they can.

I'm honestly shocked he still makes videos. I thought he gave up that shtick years ago.
Well I can't speak for Jeremy Hambly (MTG Headquarters/Unsleeved Media/The Quartering) since what he did to Christine Sprankle was wrong. Tony Guo (MTGLion) on the other hand has some valid points about his concerns with the MTG Community nowadays where WOTC is rewarding people for bad behavior while setting a bad example for younger generations who'd be interested in playing Paper MTG.

Terese Nielsen was even bullied on Social Media for being a conservative when it shouldn't even matter what someone's political beliefs are. Social Media platforms like Facebook and Twitter don't represent the MTG Community in a way that local playgroups at your LGS and message board forums do. All it does is allow contracted players to bully others instead of being passionate about what's more important, Magic: The Gathering as a game we all love and hold dear.
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