[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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FoodChainGoblins
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

I think most of us have agreed or can at least see it - cards like Oko, Thief of Crowns, Veil of Summer, and Once Upon a Time were mistakes. Oko should definitely get banned in Modern. Then over the course of the next few months, Urza can be monitored for a potential ban. I personally think so, but I think it deserves another chance in a similar, albeit different metagame.
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Can't agree with this opinion. Urza decks gets again more time because another pushed card rescues them again.... Like hoogak last time. We don't need to wait allways. Urza was best bevore hoogak, it was best even bevore urza himself. Why we should wait? I don't knew anyone which likes playing against urza, it is one of this decks that's destroying modern since long time now

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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

Is this hyperbole? Because ThopterSword was dead before Urza and Urza was printed at the same time as Hogaak

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
Can't agree with this opinion. Urza decks gets again more time because another pushed card rescues them again.... Like hoogak last time. We don't need to wait allways. Urza was best bevore hoogak, it was best even bevore urza himself. Why we should wait? I don't knew anyone which likes playing against urza, it is one of this decks that's destroying modern since long time now
I don't get it, this timeline doesn't make since to me. Urza was on top already before oko and emry were printed, but certainly not before hogaak.
Banning oko now is not enough it needs another card hit too, getting nerfed and still being the top deck is the same situation hogaak was in and we should avoid that.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I think most of us have agreed or can at least see it - cards like Oko, Thief of Crowns, Veil of Summer, and Once Upon a Time were mistakes. Oko should definitely get banned in Modern. Then over the course of the next few months, Urza can be monitored for a potential ban. I personally think so, but I think it deserves another chance in a similar, albeit different metagame.
I agree Oko was a mistake, but I'm still up in the air on if it should be banned. That largely depends on if answers to Planeswalkers are coming (following the theory that in the year after a block, answers to the previous year are generally printed) and if those answers are realistic to the format.

Veil of Summer I think is fine, it's certainly above the curve for what that sort of card should be able to do but I'm not convinced that it's too good.

Once Upon A Time I'll continue to defend.

Astrolabe is in my opinion the #1 ban priority in the format currently. If we want to talk about cards that shouldn't exist, it should be on the top of the list. Removing Astrolabe would have the side effect of hitting basically every variant of the Urza decks, which could be enough for those.

Other than that, I think we should probably start discussing ban criteria based on other factors than tournament metagame health. According to the statistics right now, the format is relatively diverse, yet few are playing it because it's not fun. It's certainly true that different players are going to find different things fun, and we don't want to go too deep down that rabbit hole, but sufficiently unfun cards such as overly powerful prison cards, can turn people off of a format.

In that spirit, Oko, Narset, T3feri, Karn/Lattice, Thopter/Sword, and Ensnaring Bridge should probably all be individually considered. Forgetting tournament statistics for a moment, if some or all of the above cards didn't exist, would the format be more enjoyable right now for the majority of players? Or conversely, which of those aren't unfun enough to turn players off of wanting to play the format?
I don't get it, this timeline doesn't make since to me. Urza was on top already before oko and emry were printed, but certainly not before hogaak.
Banning oko now is not enough it needs another card hit too, getting nerfed and still being the top deck is the same situation hogaak was in and we should avoid that.
Urza was having better conversion rates during Hogaak than even Hogaak had. It just wasn't as popular a deck, mostly because figuring out the right shell has taken longer. Or possibly because there's so many different viable shells.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Astrolabe is in my opinion the #1 ban priority in the format currently. If we want to talk about cards that shouldn't exist, it should be on the top of the list. Removing Astrolabe would have the side effect of hitting basically every variant of the Urza decks, which could be enough for those.
I used to think Arcum's Astrolabe was the best thing to be doing. I used to think that this is the closest we can have to "Deathrite Shaman" since that won't ever come off the ban list. But seeing these new cards in print and playing the decks that have these cards in them, I have to say that playing Arcum's Astrolabe only seems slightly above the curve right now. There are so many other better things to be doing and it only feels slightly above average to be casting Astrolabe. I'm pretty sure that if there are some bans, then playing Astrolabe will once again be one of the best things to be doing, but we'll see then.

As for Urza, Lord High Artificer and Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis, they were both in Modern Horizons. There was no "Urza" before "Hogaak." Urza decks still did very well. I will admit that. But I don't feel like it was the best thing to be doing - that was Hogaak. I still remember a friend winning a PTQ with Whirza when Hogaak was legal. It was very well played by him. He was way ahead of the curve on that one. I thought Neoform was it, but got hit with the variance bug at 4-4 that tournament. :\
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Sometimes I think people forget how good urza is, because it changes so often names of this deck. Whirza, ascendancy, urza, simic urza, thopter sword and some more are allways same. But giving them each 2 month a new name, it's like giving them again protection, so people can say: "I don't get it, this timeline makes no sense to me", or:" let's look if it's final form and maybe people can now adapt". No, it makes no sense if we allways forget it's the same broken, unfunny, logistical problems deck like allways, no matter which shell.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Modern is going to die. I like Modern, but it will die.
I am not a doom monger by nature, but Pioneer is shiny, it will attract players in the short term and in the short term content producers will flock to it, and it will be given support by wotc. Even when people become disillusioned those local Modern scenes won't resurrect.

Pioneer may end up on Arena, Modern just won't.

Nearly every Legacy player loves Legacy. Go on to the active groups and look. It is a beloved format and people who own the cards are not going to abandon them. People play what they want with decks they have owned for years. That is what Legacy players do by and large. Play their favourite decks, updating when needed. Nobody ever buys in to Legacy for glory and pptqs onto ptqs onto PT, as people once did with Modern. They buy in because of what it is, because people who play it are there to play the format and not moan they got locked out or combo beaten turn 2.

I am no financial expert, but have sold a healthy 5 figures worth of stuff (gbp) on Ebay and private sales to match that in five years, huge amounts at profit paying for holidays away, and much more besides. Nothing will make me re-invest on Modern cards. I have kept the cards js I want, and can take from Legacy decks, but I am never buying into a new deck, not even the fuve dollar next 'gaak, and I have a lot of the staples in Legacy I can transfer at zero cost beyond time.

People may sit on, say, their Force of Negations that they bought six months ago and refuse to sell at a loss, but news flash- they are not moving, guys, and you won't have many places to play them. Recent price memory is a terrible, terrible thing that makes cards rot in binders. The writing is on the wall when we look at price trajectories of older staples, Snapcaster- come on down, Goyf, Bob, Surgical Extraction, Blood Moon you too. The usual December dip this isn't, run the maths, it is a bigger dip than previous, these cards have really softened. It is true that these cards are used in Legacy, of course but the softening of dual lands is in line with normal December trends, whilst Force of Will et al have gone nowhere.


No amount of bannings will ever make Modern attractive to the level it was, and as I say, I like Modern, I don't see it as any more broken than it ever was, it has often been broken. I don't want it to die, but it just will.

Everyone wants different things for Modern, there is an issue you can't solve. For every person you attract by banning for play patterns you lose. It is no good looking at Blood Moon or Ensnaring Bridge, say, because if people do not want those cards, they will play Pioneer. Everyone hates and loves different things. Infect, Twin, Pod, Zoo, Jund- every deck has people viscerally hating or absolutely loving the same decks. Some people never get over bans, but most people have been forced to play on, if they want high level non rotating mtg. That will never happen again. Modern will end up niche, like Legacy, but without the love. For every person you attract with a lattice ban, you will lose others, because now peoplw have choices. The people who hate Karn also probably hate Urza, Oko, and would hate Twin, Pod, Jund etc. Eveyone who played Modern had such different backgrounds, it was like locking a bunch of different people in a room and telling them to get on for five days. When they get the keys to another room they up sticks and leave.

It does not matter what gets banned or unbanned at this point. The best Modern can hope for is a period of stability after some bans next year and slow erosion of staples, propped up in a small way by Legacy and much more so Edh so that they settle at a good price point.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

Urza was good during hogaak summer, but I will not accept that urza came first or that it was better than hogaak at the time. Regardless, urza has undoubtedly gotten much better with oko and emry as evidenced by it's deck evolution, infinite life gain and thopters is no longer good enough.

Edit: the more I think about it, we have to hit urza himself or the deck will just revert back to its older form. If urza was already the best deck then an oko ban only will not be enough.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Oko is not really part of the core of the Urza deck. Its just the best thing you can do turn 2 and turn 3 in almost any deck. At this point Urza reminds of Jund. The best (meta)cards all put into 1 deck with the huge difference and benefit that they all synergy extremely well with each other. That is the big problem of the Urza deck. If you really want to hit Urza you need to hit its core, the cards that are specific to the deck: Urza, Mox Opal, Astrolabe, Emry.

- Oko is a guaranteed ban. Its homogenized all decks and warped the meta around it.
- Enough has been said about Veil of Summer, the card needs to go.
- Games that start with turn 1-2 Emry quickly get out of hand. I very much believe it should go.

It would mean Urza would go back to pre-Throne state in which it was arguably already the best deck so something else should go as well. Will it finally be Mox Opal or will they just axe Urza himself?

That leaves us with EldraTron and all other Tron variants. I believe Expedition Map is the best target. They got OUaT in return, which is less powerful in their deck and at the same time it means OUaT can continue to exist in creature based decks.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 1 year ago

I'm not convinced Lattice, Tron, or OuaT need bans. Karn is just a wacky combo, easily beat by a small board state/instant artifact removal/Counterspell. Tron is Tron and it sucks, but it's not doing anything new that warrants a ban and hasn't seen a ban in the past. OuaT is very subtle, and possibly too consistent, but Amulet, Infect, and Druid decks were previously t2-ish and I don't mind a power increase for them.

I'm certain Urza himself should be banned because the deck is easily still the top contender without Oko due to Urza/Emry/Astrolabe. I don't personally want Oko banned because I like what the card does -- it is an interactive card, after all -- but I can't deny that it is very prevalent and might deserve a ban for diversity (God I hate that justification after the Twin ban). Veil is a stupid, stupid card and should have never seen print, and should obviously be banned.

As for unbans, the Twin unban is long overdue. I could see a Pod or GSZ unban, but it's questionable whether those would help anything.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Other than the early September-October breakout/dominance Urza decks have steadily declined in both popularity and placings (especially online). Where does this newfound calls for nuking Urza come from? Because it certainly are not data driven.

There are some VERY problematic cards that have turned the format upside down, and it's not Urza, Emry or Opal. It's Oko and Veil. Those cards are what dominate (and homogenize) Modern at the moment, trying to pretend otherwise is having an agenda against a certain type of decks.

I can see why Emry can be annoying, but that doesn't mean she's bannable. She's a freaking creature that dies to every removal in the format that gives grinding opportunities to artifact decks that had a huge issue.

Hit Veil and Oko. Urza decks go back to being prison and/or Paradoxical decks that are extremely disrupt-able and fold to several T1 strategies. Nuking the format will not help it survive, it'll only increase the paranoia and banmania that was -and is- already on extreme levels.

For the umptienth time: Stop wanting to ban Opal. If you do, no artifact deck will ever exist in the format. Unfair? Probably, but with how easily artifacts get hated they need such cards to compete.
Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
Sometimes I think people forget how good urza is, because it changes so often names of this deck. Whirza, ascendancy, urza, simic urza, thopter sword and some more are allways same


All of those cards have 2 things in common: They're artifact decks and they play Urza. Their gameplans are completely different. They have different goals and range from completely linear to midrange and prison. So unless you wanna start banning BGx, Shadow and Tron variants, you'd better reconsider that idea.
Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Other than that, I think we should probably start discussing ban criteria based on other factors than tournament metagame health. According to the statistics right now, the format is relatively diverse, yet few are playing it because it's not fun. It's certainly true that different players are going to find different things fun, and we don't want to go too deep down that rabbit hole, but sufficiently unfun cards such as overly powerful prison cards, can turn people off of a format.

In that spirit, Oko, Narset, T3feri, Karn/Lattice, Thopter/Sword, and Ensnaring Bridge should probably all be individually considered. Forgetting tournament statistics for a moment, if some or all of the above cards didn't exist, would the format be more enjoyable right now for the majority of players? Or conversely, which of those aren't unfun enough to turn players off of wanting to play the format?
People are not playing Modern because it's an off season and there's Pioneer (with its own set of problems people seem to gloss over). Fun is very subjective, my store was and still is very diverse. While online stats show that, the format has been circling around Oko and Veil way too much, especially the past couple of months. Oko is way more of a problem than Narset, T3feri, Karn/Lattice, Thopter/Sword or Ensnaring Bridge ever were.

On that note, those cards (besides Oko, and maaaaybe T3feri) are not even THAT annoying/unfun. Or rather aren't the only ones. There's also Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void and other prison cards. Valakut can be extremely annoying/unfun, since by just playing lands you get Bolts.

Annoying/Fun should never trump homogenization/brokeness, because it's subjective. I like prison decks. And Control. And Tempo. All of them can be VERY annoying/unfun to play against.

As I said before, Oko and Veil have no place in Magic, not just Modern. They do too much for their mana cost. They either force the game to be about them by shutting down your creatures or aggro plan or they negate the majority of interaction and safety valves in the formats they're played in.

Kill them off now and go on from there. If Urza/Tron or other decks prove to be problematic (not unfun, straight up problematic) then hit them, I'll be the first to admit it (especially on Urza decks). Over correcting will result in the same problems that cards like Sword of the Meek or Bloodbraid had. They never showed what they could do in a non-problematic format.
TheAnnihilator wrote:
1 year ago
I'm certain Urza himself should be banned because the deck is easily still the top contender without Oko due to Urza/Emry/Astrolabe. I don't personally want Oko banned because I like what the card does -- it is an interactive card, after all -- but I can't deny that it is very prevalent and might deserve a ban for diversity (God I hate that justification after the Twin ban). Veil is a stupid, stupid card and should have never seen print, and should obviously be banned.
Top contender =/= Broken or ban worthy. Shadow decks are top contenders. As are Tron decks. Urza decks without Oko will resort to the Thopter/Sword combo and Paradoxical versions. Both of them are extremely easy to disrupt and are dogs to many T1 strategies atm (namely Shadow and Tron decks, along with Burn/Prowess).

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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Hit Veil and Oko. Urza decks go back to being prison and/or Paradoxical decks that are extremely disrupt-able and fold to several T1 strategies. Nuking the format will not help it survive, it'll only increase the paranoia and banmania that was -and is- already on extreme levels.

For the umptienth time: Stop wanting to ban Opal. If you do, no artifact deck will ever exist in the format. Unfair? Probably, but with how easily artifacts get hated they need such cards to compete.
This is basically how I feel about the current state of artifact affairs myself.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
People are not playing Modern because it's an off season and there's Pioneer
I can assure you I am not playing Modern due to Oko, Veil and Emry. I can at least name 6 other people who stopped playing Modern due to being sick of Urza in general and more reasons. I know 4 people who are still into Modern and guess what, 3 of them play Urza and 2 of those want Urza banned because they have nobody to play with because nobody is attending Modern FNM's and they admit the card is busted. This is the state of Modern in my area.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

ThatStoryTeller wrote:
1 year ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Hit Veil and Oko. Urza decks go back to being prison and/or Paradoxical decks that are extremely disrupt-able and fold to several T1 strategies. Nuking the format will not help it survive, it'll only increase the paranoia and banmania that was -and is- already on extreme levels.

For the umptienth time: Stop wanting to ban Opal. If you do, no artifact deck will ever exist in the format. Unfair? Probably, but with how easily artifacts get hated they need such cards to compete.
This is basically how I feel about the current state of artifact affairs myself.
I am in this boat as well. Banning Mox Opal would literally be stupid, especially if Oko and Urza remain unbanned. It just doesn't make any sense in any world. That in fact could cause Modern to die (not that I believe what drmarkb said above that Modern will die for Pioneer).

Modern won't die. Pioneer has had 20 bans in 2 months and will have 20 more in the next 2 months until it's Siege Rhino smashing up against 4/4s and 5/5s. :crazy: Have any of the people saying this actually played Pioneer. It doesn't take too many tournaments to realize it's trash. I personally have no reason to play the format other than to win prizes. Nothing else.
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Mox need to go, because like you say, if oko goes they will just play again prison style. Mox is core of this shi.t

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I am in this boat as well. Banning Mox Opal would literally be stupid, especially if Oko and Urza remain unbanned. It just doesn't make any sense in any world. That in fact could cause Modern to die (not that I believe what drmarkb said above that Modern will die for Pioneer).

Modern won't die. Pioneer has had 20 bans in 2 months and will have 20 more in the next 2 months until it's Siege Rhino smashing up against 4/4s and 5/5s. :crazy: Have any of the people saying this actually played Pioneer. It doesn't take too many tournaments to realize it's trash. I personally have no reason to play the format other than to win prizes. Nothing else.
have learned to ignore all this gnashing of teeth about modern dying. Has been going on for years, it's just a meme at this point.
I do believe also that modern and all other formats will "die" someday, but that time of death is when wotc itself kicks the bucket.

funny, I was about to buy two siege rhino about a week ago.. but removed them from scg cart, because have no deck that needs the big guy at the moment. Well, if the bans on pioneer keep coming.. I might just indeed be forced to buy some rhino. :omg:
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I am in this boat as well. Banning Mox Opal would literally be stupid, especially if Oko and Urza remain unbanned. It just doesn't make any sense in any world. That in fact could cause Modern to die (not that I believe what drmarkb said above that Modern will die for Pioneer).

Modern won't die. Pioneer has had 20 bans in 2 months and will have 20 more in the next 2 months until it's Siege Rhino smashing up against 4/4s and 5/5s. :crazy: Have any of the people saying this actually played Pioneer. It doesn't take too many tournaments to realize it's trash. I personally have no reason to play the format other than to win prizes. Nothing else.
have learned to ignore all this gnashing of teeth about modern dying. Has been going on for years, it's just a meme at this point.
I do believe also that modern and all other formats will "die" someday, but that time of death is when wotc itself kicks the bucket.

funny, I was about to buy two siege rhino about a week ago.. but removed them from scg cart, because have no deck that needs the big guy at the moment. Well, if the bans on pioneer keep coming.. I might just indeed be forced to buy some rhino. :omg:
Yeah, I feel you. Most of the time, it literally IS a meme, but I can at least see some merit to it nowadays. No, that does not mean that I believe it's happening soon FWIW. It seems like WotC is trying their best to turn everything digital. I think upkeep is much cheaper this way. But there is a population of players that lives and dies for face to face Magic. That population may be slowly dying, but it's still a considerable chunk of WotC's customers and I doubt they wanna lose out on all that profit.

As for Siege Rhino, I was kind of talking out my ass. I just don't see a format in which they've done this many bans this early surviving. I don't care if "they said they'd do a ban announcement every Monday and stuff would get banned." I know there are 20 people ready to jump in here and tell me that. There can be no consumer confidence because customers' cards have become bulk rares. I had many of these cards and yes, I was dumb to not have sold them after they spiked like crazy. But I wanted to actually play some of them in a tournament that matters, like next year's GPs. Nope, I literally don't know what will be legal by then...
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

The only thing that Pioneer has going for it is that Oko, Thief of Crowns is banned in Pioneer and it is NOT banned in Modern. There is literally nothing else. (IMO of course)
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
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Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
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Post by stubb » 1 year ago

I'm anti-ban in general and I'm playing 3x Oko in my RUG Delver brew. But I'm 3 matches deep in a league, having played against Affinity, BUG Urza, and UG Titan. Oko in every deck. It's not necessarily dominant, but it seems homogenizing.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I am in this boat as well. Banning Mox Opal would literally be stupid, especially if Oko and Urza remain unbanned. It just doesn't make any sense in any world. That in fact could cause Modern to die (not that I believe what drmarkb said above that Modern will die for Pioneer).

Modern won't die. Pioneer has had 20 bans in 2 months and will have 20 more in the next 2 months until it's Siege Rhino smashing up against 4/4s and 5/5s. :crazy: Have any of the people saying this actually played Pioneer. It doesn't take too many tournaments to realize it's trash. I personally have no reason to play the format other than to win prizes. Nothing else.
have learned to ignore all this gnashing of teeth about modern dying. Has been going on for years, it's just a meme at this point.
I do believe also that modern and all other formats will "die" someday, but that time of death is when wotc itself kicks the bucket.
Well never in Modern's history has there been a perfect storm of buckets of broken new cards, abandonment of B&R, creation of new non-rotating format, reduction of paper support, and the overall player dissatisfaction of players seems to be the highest it's ever been. LGSs are cutting back Modern events, including FNMs that used to draw 40-50+ ever week, in favor of Pioneer/Sealed/Draft, and several streamers are cutting back, or dropping Modern entirely. And despite all of these things, WOTC tells us with a straight face that everything is fine, if they tell us anything at all, which they usually don't. Modern is probably in one of the roughest spots it's ever been in, and I don't know what would even need to happen at this point to bring it back.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
People are not playing Modern because it's an off season and there's Pioneer (with its own set of problems people seem to gloss over). Fun is very subjective, my store was and still is very diverse. While online stats show that, the format has been circling around Oko and Veil way too much, especially the past couple of months. Oko is way more of a problem than Narset, T3feri, Karn/Lattice, Thopter/Sword or Ensnaring Bridge ever were.
At competitive tournaments, yes. However, the number of people who play for fun at lower stakes organized play events is way down. Modern numbers are suffering bad.

Having a healthy tournament meta is of course important as that tends to be the face of the game, but even if the meta is healthy if the players aren't having fun, they aren't going to want to play it. Look back at Eggs during it's short reign of terror, or at KCI before that ban. The meta was still healthy and while those decks were good, they weren't the only good thing you could be doing.

The excuse used for Second Sunrise was tournament logistics, but it was 100% about the deck being tournament viable while being absolutely miserable to play against. Or, if you're not comfortable in reading too far into things, here's a quote from KCI's ban update

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... nouncement
This can create a barrier to entry to Modern for players playing against the deck and to those who would feel obligated to play with it because of its strong win rate. We're sensitive to community feedback that the combination of polarized matchups, complex interactions, and long turns can lead to unenjoyable gameplay and viewing experiences.
Unenjoyable player experiences was specifically named as part of the reason why it was banned. I keep going back and forth on Oko from a power level perspective. The card is good, but not unbeatable and in looking at current metagame diversity, we still have that, and the card is about on par across the format as other staple threats have been at various times. On the other hand, if someone presented me with the fun argument as a reason to ban, I'm not sure I would be able to disagree.

Such an argument is of course a nuanced one as different players will enjoy different things, a line can probably be drawn though at cards that are unpopular enough (and highly played enough) that they serve as a strong incentive for players to not want to play the format due to the play patterns involved with the card.

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Amalgam
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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

I dont understand how anyone can with a straight face tell me pioneer is a good or even fun format. It's an extremely linear format that will continue to be broken set after set as it has zero answers. The fact that even mana leak is considered too good for standard should tell you enough. People care at the moment as wizards are pushing the format and are trying out all their new brews at fnm. If I had to say one thing about the format which will stick to it is that it's a terrible tournament format.
If you think modern is bad now please look at pioneer again in 12 months when it's another 20 bans deep and has simillar moaning to this thread about modern now

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Amalgam
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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

The problem is pioneer simply isnt fun during to every deck being basically another variant of solitaire. Also unless wizards drastically changes their way of thinking and way they design cards I dont see how you can fix that format. Look at the banlist of pioneer and notice how it's almost identical to the last few years of standard. Pioneer may have more fair decks but they are super linear at both ends of the spectrum. The decks themselves might not winning turn 3/4 but they might as well be as they game is basically already decided at that point anyway.
Wizards has their work out out for them to even make pioneer better than the worst of modern. All pioneer currently shows is wizards design style for battle cruiser magic, please dont confuse this for actual interaction

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Yes, you see a hand and you knew how it will end, this is really true in modern. Last fnm I had a decision making. Take oko, or take urza from opponents hand while he was on 2 lands. I knew it's over, no matter what I will choose. I took oko because it was possible playing him next turn but in his next turn he draw mox opal, used it, used it again with emry and tataaaa... Game over. There is no way often in modern you can win with interaction. They just can stay at 2 mana and play spells which cost 4. Ban opal, he is a part of this problem, don't support this anymore if you want play modern more as another one year

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