[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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FoodChainGoblins
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

True-Name Nemesis wrote:
1 year ago
Without wishing to say you're lying, because Twin DID use git probe in earlier iterations.

However, claims like this are very easily fact checked. And Twin variants have mostly moved away from running it in 2015. Maybe you did. But most did not.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/m ... 3420#paper
Correct! Gitaxian Probe was not really played much, outside of a very small metagame like an FNM or city region perhaps, in Splinter Twin. There really was no reason to. Although at first glance, Twin seems to really care about what you have in your hand so they can jam, there are so many ways to make the game go longer until there is a favorable position to jam. Sometimes jamming the combo early because your opponent will outdraw you later is the correct choice, but Git Probe had more downsides than to just put it in there.

On another note, I did notice people overselling the ban by saying that Git Probe was played in every single deck. No, it wasn't. It was not a 4 of in Tron, Burn, or many other decks. I did want to test the card in Bogles since I had a lot of life gain anyway, but I never go through to it and nobody else placed with a Bogles deck with Probe. Okay, I end this tangent...
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Complaining about the G Tron Karn Creator lines is fine, as long as we remember this is part of the 2019 design disaster. We can talk about bans regarding Tron, Whirza, or other undesirable top decks, but as long as Wizards continues to create cards like these, we'll just see more broken cards emerge and more ban calls without fixing the underlying problem. Do not let Wizards off the hook for these disastrous decisions by allowing our conversation to be distracted by bans.
While i think what you are saying in general is fine, and while Karn was part of their 2019 bad design philosophy, I don't think that's the problem here. Karn exists in Pioneer as well and he is perfectly fine with it. Why? Because we don't have Tron, we don't have artifacts-remnants of the old days that are bad, outdated designs and ultimately the huge cardpool of modern is going to break them in half. Still, I would say Karn is fine, wasn't it there for tron or mox opal to accelerate the card and cast it on turn 3/4.

Literally, Modern seems to be in large about who is going to slam Karn first here. Now, I am saying Tron needs to be banned, but if there wasn't Tron, Karn would literally be a slower card to play and fetch and play something out. You can play Lattice on 5 or 6 mana, for all I care.
Also, the Urza deck being too good, is forcing everybody that can, to just play Karn, TCG. This could be a kind of a warping effect Urza has on the metagame.
I think the issue with printing Karn, the Great Creator is that there is literally no upside to printing it in a Standard set. It will see 0 play in Limited. It will see 0 play in Standard. Then, what good is it? Where should it be tested? In Modern, Legacy, and Vintage... I realize that Wizards doesn't test for Modern and that is the huge issue here. That card is not for Standard/Limited. I feel that it is a mistake and could only get worse (or more banworthy to be clear here) with the printing of potentially strong artifacts or artifacts that are particularly good in a specific meta.

I felt dumb complaining about Karn, the Great Creator when there are issues with Narset, Parter of Veils, Teferi, Time Raveler, and Urza, Lord High Artificer. But I am not going to hold back anymore after seeing the new Urza lists with Karn, TGC.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago


At the time Twin was banned, we didnt play Probe. When people say 'I wish there was more interaction' they mean BGx, and URx. They mean Discard, Removal, Counters. They mean Abrupt Decay, Bolt, Remand, and IoK. They mean Cryptic Command.

They dont mean 'I cast my chalice on 2, thats proactive interaction!'

That said, if I was in the market, I would play the UG/Sultai Urza deck in a heartbeat. There's no way its not the best deck once people put in the reps, and the lists I've seen look amazing.
Without wishing to discuss twin further, I played Probe, and as I recall most did. I could be mistaken, but my experience was probing.
Let's just be clear about revising history: No deck played any copies of Gitaxian Probe whatsoever, in any of the Top 8 GP or PT placements for Twin in all of 2015. There had been 3 decks that played a single copy of Peek, but that seemed to be a trend that mostly died off after February of that year.

Whether or not *you* played Probe, it was not an accepted or competitively successful choice for players. I personally never played it in any version of Twin I ever played. You either wait until you have a protection spell, jam it and hope for the best, or rely on Vendilion Clique.
Well, not trying to argue here, but twin existed for years before 2015. There is room for variance in deck lists especially a deck that existed for many years. Certainly not all twin decks ran probe, and we can even call it rare, but there where some lists that ran it. I think that is a fair statement.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago


At the time Twin was banned, we didnt play Probe. When people say 'I wish there was more interaction' they mean BGx, and URx. They mean Discard, Removal, Counters. They mean Abrupt Decay, Bolt, Remand, and IoK. They mean Cryptic Command.

They dont mean 'I cast my chalice on 2, thats proactive interaction!'

That said, if I was in the market, I would play the UG/Sultai Urza deck in a heartbeat. There's no way its not the best deck once people put in the reps, and the lists I've seen look amazing.
Without wishing to discuss twin further, I played Probe, and as I recall most did. I could be mistaken, but my experience was probing.
Let's just be clear about revising history: No deck played any copies of Gitaxian Probe whatsoever, in any of the Top 8 GP or PT placements for Twin in all of 2015. There had been 3 decks that played a single copy of Peek, but that seemed to be a trend that mostly died off after February of that year.

Whether or not *you* played Probe, it was not an accepted or competitively successful choice for players. I personally never played it in any version of Twin I ever played. You either wait until you have a protection spell, jam it and hope for the best, or rely on Vendilion Clique.

Again, I hate having to continue to talk about this, but it bothers me to no end when people simply state blatant falsehoods and misrepresentations. The myths and legends of Twin are so hilariously blown out of proportion, you'd think that the card personally murdered every Magic players' families or something. Goodness f**king gracious.

Meanwhile Urza is still a better, more powerful, more robust deck than Twin ever was.
I will refer you to my other post- I sold out of the deck pre ban, around the end of the DDT era, around the end of 2014- I seem to remember it being around then- which is hardly a blatant falsehood or myth as it is clearly a personal observation- prefaced with the words "I could be mistaken"- and on MTG top 8 2014 page 1 there are some twin exarch decks playing it in the DDT era, though it is not universal. Not sure how/why 2015 is so important to the discussion- maybe I missed that in the original post,- sorry if so, I am not trying to wind anyone up - nor I am I sure why there is endless twin debate, centering on 2015 or otherwise. I am not sure of course whether you are responding to the other Twin player who also probed. This is not the Twin thread but it keeps getting mentioned in a way Pod does not and SFM, BBE and Jace did not. Every five posts- Twin.

MTg is in a rough state at the moment- OP planeswalkers, bannings etc rubbish answers, wallet fatigue, an excess of product, planewalker push, bans done to protect sales (or rather NOT done- Hoogy/Oko being cases in point- both coming late), and yet the state of Modern thread is full of time looped Twin debate. There is even a thread somewhere, possibly here even, discussing builds with it in.

Probe of course interacts with Delve and sets up free wins in Infect etc. It got the chop in Legacy circa 2018- it wasn't everywhere in every deck, but if there was a free win deck with an A-B combo it would always have a case for inclusion. Legacy has more a/b combo- Show n tell, Infect etc and has more delve abusers.

Urza is pretty egregious and will probably get a ban soon. I would not buy into the deck, for sure. They can't ban too much at once, and I am sure they keep some likely bans up their sleeve. I am sure it is as ban worthy as Twin was, and I would wager it will get one early 2020.

I read an article calling for a watch list the other day- can't recall where. E fro maybe?
Last edited by drmarkb 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago


Man I'm not surprised. You're just %$#% salty. With the way you were describing it one would think that the Top 8 would've have been 6 copies of Urza decks, but there were 4 different archetypes in the Top 8. So I was correct, I guess?
Yeah sure, whatever. You are correct, it's a fine deck and now Iets waste again time, while modern is just unplayable garbage. Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies... Nice song from fleetwood Mac

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Not sure how/why 2015 is so important to the discussion- maybe I missed that in the original post,- sorry if so, I am not trying to wind anyone up - nor I am I sure why there is endless twin debate
The focus on 2015 is because it was that year where several criteria listed for its banning was cited. All of those criteria proved to be laughably wrong, incorrect, and untrue, but that's besides the point. It was the period in which it was perceived to be the "best deck" after Pod was banned, even though it spent several portions of the year outpaced by Affinity and BGx variants (Jund/Abzan). And the "endless debate" is because people continually say silly things about it and grossly misrepresent the deck, what it did, its impact on the format, how 'warping' it was, how utterly and indefensibly dominant it was, how impenetrably unbeatable it was, and now how "most versions ran Probe;" NOT LIKE THAT MATTERS BECAUSE MOST DIDN'T AND PROBE IS BANNED ANYWAY.

Honestly, I wish they would just reinstate a ban on all mentions to the Twin deck so I can stop having to put up with (and fight back against) all the stupid things people say about Twin. Because just letting go by unchecked perpetuates and solidifies these ridiculous myths and legends further; especially for those who HAVE NEVER EVEN PLAYED WITH OR AGAINST THE DECK, yet have fiercely strong opinions about it.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Sure I see why you are focusing on 2015, because whatever reasons they gave pertained to that period.

On the other hand, my original statement t3 eot dude, probe, twin could be amended to turn 3 eot, twin for the period you want to discuss. It was a passing comment, and not especially authoritive. Wotc don't like that sort of a-b combo potentially early in the game flashing on in, so it won't come back, I presume you and everyone else agrees that it won't? At least not in the next couple of years. I mean people can argue for unbans, they generally don't happen, regardless of merit.

Hell in Legacy we wait years for harmless stuff to come off. Land Tax, Vise, Worldgorger etc. Plenty still locked up too- Mindtwist, for example, Frantic Search iirc. That is what happens. Banlists date but they try to avoid the on-off thing by making stuff stay off if they can. They then use unbans for their needs, to deflect attention, to shake up metas, sell a slightly likely to bomb masters set etc. They are interested in more than short term health of the competitive scene in any one format. Frankly in many cases they have things banned they have simply not bothered looking at. I mean Black Vise in Legacy, ten years banned!

I sm sure there have been more egregious decks before and after, and we all know that whenever a deck gets strong Twin discussion rears its head, rather than Infect or Pod. Wotc are not very consistent, or always honest in their reasoning. I mean Top in Legacy was around and bannable before it got chopped, did not do any more in fhe year of the ban than it did two years previously. It is the way of bans. I have always favoured a watch list, but I guess there are interests that don't want that.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Sure I see why you are focusing on 2015, because whatever reasons they gave pertained to that period.

On the other hand, my original statement t3 eot dude, probe, twin could be amended to turn 3 eot, twin for the period you want to discuss. It was a passing comment, and not especially authoritive.
My apologies in being set off, it's not directly aimed at you, but definitely something I have dealt with for literally four years now. People twisting and rewriting history in order to retroactively justify a ban a vilify a deck. Again, I have run into people who act like Splinter Twin murdered their family.
Wotc don't like that sort of a-b combo potentially early in the game flashing on in, so it won't come back, I presume you and everyone else agrees that it won't? At least not in the next couple of years. I mean people can argue for unbans, they generally don't happen, regardless of merit.
I mean, considering they unbanned Sword of the Meek and have continued to allow it to exist in Urza decks, I don't know how much this holds water. However, what DOES hold water is that WOTC is an irrational company that does what they want, when they want, how they want, and with no regard to precedent or previous actions. If they don't like Twin, it will never see the light of day, no matter how safe it is. Which is rich, considering they legitemately thought, for an alarmingly long time, that Stoneforge wasn't just good, but TOO GOOD for Modern. Lol.

I have long since given up holding on to any semblance of ability to predict their actions, because they do not honor or respect precedent. It simply doesn't matter. WOTC blows with the winds of the community, not with what makes sense. And frankly, so many people have been so brainwashed to think that Twin was some baby-killing monstrosity that never lost a match to anything and was an overwhelming dominant force that should never see the light of day, that there just isn't the community push behind it. Not to say that there isn't a push, but it's not nearly as universal as SFM was.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Not sure how/why 2015 is so important to the discussion- maybe I missed that in the original post,- sorry if so, I am not trying to wind anyone up - nor I am I sure why there is endless twin debate
The focus on 2015 is because it was that year where several criteria listed for its banning was cited. All of those criteria proved to be laughably wrong, incorrect, and untrue, but that's besides the point. It was the period in which it was perceived to be the "best deck" after Pod was banned, even though it spent several portions of the year outpaced by Affinity and BGx variants (Jund/Abzan). And the "endless debate" is because people continually say silly things about it and grossly misrepresent the deck, what it did, its impact on the format, how 'warping' it was, how utterly and indefensibly dominant it was, how impenetrably unbeatable it was, and now how "most versions ran Probe;" NOT LIKE THAT MATTERS BECAUSE MOST DIDN'T AND PROBE IS BANNED ANYWAY.

Honestly, I wish they would just reinstate a ban on all mentions to the Twin deck so I can stop having to put up with (and fight back against) all the stupid things people say about Twin. Because just letting go by unchecked perpetuates and solidifies these ridiculous myths and legends further; especially for those who HAVE NEVER EVEN PLAYED WITH OR AGAINST THE DECK, yet have fiercely strong opinions about it.
Thank you for apologizing for going off. I think you are the only using adjectives like silly and stupid. We have to stay calm, especially talking about twin.

I played the deck for years and I used probe and Idsurge said something similar. The deck existed from the beginning of the format and went through many iterations. Remember the tarmagoyf version that was big for a bit after Patrick dickman won with it? By the end people were developing grixis versions and their was even a living end twin hybrid that did exist. I saw a RW version using village bell ringer instead of deciever exarch. Not everyone used probe, people used all kinds of things even if those were not the most popular version.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Not sure how/why 2015 is so important to the discussion- maybe I missed that in the original post,- sorry if so, I am not trying to wind anyone up - nor I am I sure why there is endless twin debate
The focus on 2015 is because it was that year where several criteria listed for its banning was cited. All of those criteria proved to be laughably wrong, incorrect, and untrue, but that's besides the point. It was the period in which it was perceived to be the "best deck" after Pod was banned, even though it spent several portions of the year outpaced by Affinity and BGx variants (Jund/Abzan). And the "endless debate" is because people continually say silly things about it and grossly misrepresent the deck, what it did, its impact on the format, how 'warping' it was, how utterly and indefensibly dominant it was, how impenetrably unbeatable it was, and now how "most versions ran Probe;" NOT LIKE THAT MATTERS BECAUSE MOST DIDN'T AND PROBE IS BANNED ANYWAY.

Honestly, I wish they would just reinstate a ban on all mentions to the Twin deck so I can stop having to put up with (and fight back against) all the stupid things people say about Twin. Because just letting go by unchecked perpetuates and solidifies these ridiculous myths and legends further; especially for those who HAVE NEVER EVEN PLAYED WITH OR AGAINST THE DECK, yet have fiercely strong opinions about it.
Thank you for apologizing for going off. I think you are the only using adjectives like silly and stupid. We have to stay calm, especially talking about twin.

I played the deck for years and I used probe and Idsurge said something similar. The deck existed from the beginning of the format and went through many iterations. Remember the tarmagoyf version that was big for a bit after Patrick dickman won with it? By the end people were developing grixis versions and their was even a living end twin hybrid that did exist. I saw a RW version using village bell ringer instead of deciever exarch. Not everyone used probe, people used all kinds of things even if those were not the most popular version.
I agree with this. I think that some of what some users say here is discounted because they seem to be emotional, even if their arguments make a lot of sense. I have been guilty of that and I know others have too.

Don't click if you don't want to see Twin discussion -
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In the beginning of Modern, UR Twin was more all-in, utilizing Ponder, Preordain, and Probe to all help find the combo and clear the way. I think Fabrizio Anteri was one of the players who did well at a Pro Tour with this version. Then it was Patrick Dickmann who started RUG Twin - the Tarmogoyf version. Later on Alex Bianchi won a GP with Jeskai Twin, but that one was never super popular. Somewhere along the way, Travis Woo was one of the first players trying Living Twin. When K Command, Tasigur, and Fatal Push were printed, Grixis Twin became the "thing." Finally, we kind of went back to UR Twin because of the strength of Blood Moon in the meta. This is how I remember things. I had to look up a last name or two...
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Complaining about the G Tron Karn Creator lines is fine, as long as we remember this is part of the 2019 design disaster. We can talk about bans regarding Tron, Whirza, or other undesirable top decks, but as long as Wizards continues to create cards like these, we'll just see more broken cards emerge and more ban calls without fixing the underlying problem. Do not let Wizards off the hook for these disastrous decisions by allowing our conversation to be distracted by bans.
Honestly you all are skipping over this.

Its not 'Modern' that is flawed. Its everything post Dom/Guilds, including MH1. All those design choices have built up to an absolutely GARBAGE year of Magic.

Ban's wont fix it. It will continue to suck, and that is what should be the point of discussion. Is Urza busted? Who cares. You couldnt pay me to play into Urza/ETron/GTron/GDS.
UR Control UR

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

I think sword thopter is not quite as game ending as Twin, Show n Tell in Legacy, Copycat in Pioneer, etc. It could have been unbanned ages ago, it is their dislike of anything approaching a b combo and their reluctance to unban in general that held them back. They just about let s n T sneak past in Legacy, probably because the deck normally operates as an abc combo.
I am certain Urza decks will eat a ban soon, I can't justify it beyond my financial spider sense tingling.....
I actually don't mind ab combo as long as the hate is there to stop it, which it is in Legacy for sure.

I have just found the watch list article.
E Mo, CfB. Article.
Having a ban/unban watchlist makes sense- part of the reason they don't unban, aside risk and lack of time, is that they know how galling it is to sell a banned deck in a firesale, only to have to rebuy it later- all that cash and nothing for Wotc unless they are reprinting banned stuff. It is not a surprise Jtms came into Modern when he did.
A watchlist hurts that and can make people jittery, including some partners. It also leads to prices with bans built in price, like Oko recently, only with most bans being less obvious than our Elk maker, there would be more of that with a watchlist.
Also pelple would react to emergency bans by saying 'but it wasn't on your watchlist'.
Nonetheless Modern especially would benefit from it.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

I always restrain myself from any Twin discussion but now I have 1 thing to say. 2019 has made the format be the most stupid, toxic, degenerate meta ever in the history of Modern and has made 90% of the current banlist look like a joke.

I understand the Twin players. People are sick and tired of losing to turn 3 Tron, Amulet going broken, Urza being OP in every iteration of the deck etc. They want to combat fire with fire. "If they go degenerate why can't I while my combo is easier to disrupt?", is the main argument and has become true in 2019's Modern.

However I am the innocent bystander who just wants to play a fair game of magic where decisions matter and its not 2 games of solitaire race to the finish. Because the meta has declined so much into this disaster what good does it make to add another degenerate deck? Twin-combo consists of 6-7 cards you can slam into many decks and get the 'oops I win' every now and then of a 2 card combo.

So yes Modern is a big smelly pool of diarrhea but how does dumping a sack of poop into it going to make things better? Decks who don't interact with each other and just race to do their own broken stuff already is the norm. Saying 'you have to interact with Twin or you lose' is just as true for any of the other decks but apparently its still not enough to get people to interact. The best thing is still to take your change and do your own stuff and prey for the best. On the other hand Twin also doesn't make it worse because how could it be worse. This is how I see the Twin argument.

Everywhere you look you can see a repeating problem: Planewalkers. IMO they have ruined the game. They force the opponent into a minigame (like Shahrazad) revolving around the PW while the controller keeps developing the maingame and the PW even helps him with that without spending any addition resources after the first turn. All attention has to go to the PW because if it sticks for 2 turns you get buried in carddisadvantage. MTG has degenerated into Pokemon. The cardtype PW has broken magic.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Yes, interacting with all these broken decks is not possible because you need to interact NOW and there is no tutoring, plus land interaction sets you back in Trons' case.
They are trying to make hate cards that hit more than one thing, like D sphere hits Tron and Storm, but it is not enough. They need more of them, maindeckable, and more tutoring for them.
They need to understand that a Tron player locked out of a game by being wastelanded repeatedly and then crucible locked is a good thing, a risk yoy take when playing those decks.
Ditto any other strategy. Linear strategy screwed by powerful hate card? Need to be less linear game two. Problem is all the hatecards are board cards. Karn might be a symptom of the broken pw garbage, but at least he allows you to get a hate piece from the board, although using him to fight linear strategies in Modern is bad in Legacy a t2 karn has stopped the odd storm or dredge deck. We need more hate for walkers, pure and simple, and more hate for linear in general.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Modern isn't any faster now than the past years, quit saying that...

As for the Whirza who go 9th: A Bant Snowblade got 11th (with a positive matchup against Whirza no less) Should we count that too? Because saying the deck did a triple top 8, but ignoring the rest of the 12-3's is silly.

For reference:
Annotation 2019-11-25 154305.png
Modern has always been a %$#% show and dominated by 2-4 decks. Its linearity or its degeneracy hasn't changed. Decks just changed. The probled as said a million times isn't Opal, Urza or whatever, it's Wizard's design philosophy. If you want change complain about that.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Karn, The Great Creator is the immediate response of Modern, and it's being slotted in as many decks possible. Tron, Whirza itself, Amulet, some other decks as well.
Those decks played (or tried) Karn before Urza was printed, so stop pushing that notion, it's completely wrong. Hell, Thopter/ Sword tried to incorporate it... Whirza plays Karn mostly for the mirror.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
This practically means, more non-Twin URx, more GDS/DSJ, more UWx, more BGx decks to win vs Twin, less poopy decks. That's what Modern need/want. A safety valve. And that's why Twin is making Modern healthier.
Outside Grixis control (and maybe UW, can't remember) Twin had at worst even matchups with all of those you listed, so no, "more" interaction didn't help a deck. Also, I doubt that Shadow will really have a positive matchup against Twin. So how will it make the format healthier when it isn't really affected by interaction (the deck as a whole, not the combo)?

Lastly, SFM may be a package of 6-7 cards, but you need at least 8 more creatures for it to work.
Last edited by Tzoulis 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

@Tzoulis would you unhide the tourment results that the snowblade deck faced. I cant figure out how to post it.

Wow i don't like that meta. Top 8 turned out ok, but that list of decks he faced is not looking fun to me. Something has to go from the urza deck imo, reasons WOTC can site will be tournament dominance and to promote diversity due to urza's high meta share. And honestly the karn TGC + lattis is its own problem separate from urza's, but karn is also a mush smaller problem than urza.

The urza decks are evolving in a direction to better fight the mirror match instead of the Field, that is usually not a sign of a healthy meta.

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Urza is broken since long time now. Can't understand this useless talk about and all this blindness

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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago

Outside Grixis control (and maybe UW, can't remember) Twin
Not that I care about this discussion, because frankly, I can't be bothered any more about bans/unbans discussion, I just want to play the %$#%$#% format whether Urza or isn't the best deck, I just want to toot my own horn a bit and say that Faeries had an INSANELY good MU against Twin. Not that Faeries has any chance in modern now, just to remember the days. Yes, my pet, most favorite deck of all time, has never been good in modern. What CAN we do? I am all for discussing design issues, card issues, but the type of circle-jerking going on for the past few pages YET AGAIN on Twin, and whether it is more or less broken than Urza is simply exhausting to follow, not to say participate.

We can solve this once and for all. Urza is better than Twin. There. Let's move on. The design issues that Ktk is bringing up are MUCH more interesting to discuss.
Counter, draw a card.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

[mention]metalmusic_4[/mention] Unhid it. Apart from the numerous Urza decks, I don't really see a big problem with the meta. Plus many people have whined before about how many random decks one can face, so they can't prepare for everything, so it's random. You can't really please anyone. Also, keep in mind that this is just 1 person, so what he faced may not be really indicative.

I played against 4c Saheeli last week, and man does that deck beat the %$#% out of my Urza deck...

@[mention]Ym1r[/mention] Hey, I'm just saying that Twin isn't and wasn't what people make it out to be. I've been trying to refocus the conversation for pages, but to no avail.

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Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
That's why Twin should somewhat help Modern. Twin's presence could be a safety valve for Urza or similar decks to stay legal. The alternative, is what Wizards is used to doing. Bans.
I was on my Modern hiatus when Twin was dominant/banned so I have no personal experience with the deck. However, I think that this is a better approach to managing the meta than banning it into oblivion. They can always re-ban something if can't play nice (RIP Grave Troll). Can we try unbanning things to restore balance? If Control/reactive decks were favored against Twin (as you claim) then reintroducing Twin would give these types of decks a better matchup against more of the meta and hopefully increase their meta share.

The lack of control/reactive decks is one of the most common complaints I see here. I suspect that if you have more types of "top decks" then you will see an increase in reactive/control decks. In the current meta the obvious choice is either play Urza or play to beat Urza. If there is another deck competing for the top slot, then players can no longer just play hate for Urza. In that environment, generalized midrange or interactive decks would likely be better as they would be better equipped to take on multiple types of opponents.

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

STOP... I don't want hear it anymore. Allways same boring 51761 sentences and 52752 pages of discussion. STOP

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

I think twin would be just another good deck on par with humans, GDS and others. Urza is in almost a leuge of its own, not as good as eldrazi winter, hogaak summer and such but on par with KCI, GGT dredge or DRS jund. I'm not sure twin would solve many problems we have but I don't think it would break the format further either.

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
I think twin would be just another good deck on par with humans, GDS and others. Urza is in almost a leuge of its own, not as good as eldrazi winter, hogaak summer and such but on par with KCI, GGT dredge or DRS jund. I'm not sure twin would solve many problems we have but I don't think it would break the format further either.
And this you really needed answering? I mean come on, this sentences here we read now 555 times again and again. Why it was necessary? I can't understand this here anymore. Feels like a joke. Now another one can respond another sentence which we read here 555 times too. I event won't call this decks name anymore, why? We all get all opinions of same peoples here again and again since several years now. We talk 1 page of actually decks and then 5 about this old combo. Then 1 page versus 5 again and again. WE GET IT!!!

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

If you don't want to read a statement, skip over that comment. Half my comment was about urza. The urza deck is a much bigger problem.

Everyone should remain calm or oko will turn you into an elk.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Did anyone get top 32/16 data out of the event?
UR Control UR

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
If you don't want to read a statement, skip over that comment. Half my comment was about urza. The urza deck is a much bigger problem.

Everyone should remain calm or oko will turn you into an elk.
I skipped and skipped and skipped... But it doesnt stopped

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