[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

BloodyRabbit
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 1 year ago

The same people defending Phoenix have also, over the last several years, berated, insulted, and demoralized anyone who had the audacity to say Twin was fine or its ban was a mistake
To be fair, myself and several others were a Twin players before switching to Phoenix (some time after). I don’t see how this statement could possible be true (I swear, I’m not dissing you by any chance, and while we had some minor fights I’m just trying to understand what you mean by that, cause to me it seems truly the opposite of what you’re saying).

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

BloodyRabbit wrote:
1 year ago
The same people defending Phoenix have also, over the last several years, berated, insulted, and demoralized anyone who had the audacity to say Twin was fine or its ban was a mistake
To be fair, myself and several others were a Twin players before switching to Phoenix (some time after). I don’t see how this statement could possible be true (I swear, I’m not dissing you by any chance, and while we had some minor fights I’m just trying to understand what you mean by that, cause to me it seems truly the opposite of what you’re saying).
Not specifically targeted at you, just a blanket statement to a number of people. Every time the notion was even hinted at, numerous people would descend upon defenders (usually myself and idSurge) with a barrage of harassment. We would reply to their ridiculous statements, and subsequently be banned several times, while those who instigated swam in upvotes. Repeat this for 3.5 years and you could see how a grudge and sentiment could build.

So it's a very strange feeling hearing nearly the exact same arguments, statements, and justifications I used to explain why Twin was fine (and endlessly berated for), used to justify why Phoenix is fine. Some of them are from the same people, some of them are not. It's jarring, to say the least! :explode:

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
In fact, a lot of players consider that period of time to be the Golden Age of Modern in terms of the format being at its peak playability. The explanation for why Twin was able to carry on for so long, despite being so broken, is a direct result of the fact that its dominance helped foster a pretty sweet metagame around it.
This I can agree with. Other than the being broken part, which is laughable. This isn't 2012 anymore. It was hardly broken at all in its last two years, and it sure as heck wouldn't be "broken" any time since its ban.

However, I find it interesting that you put the weight of someone like Brian DeMars over say, Emma Handy, Todd Anderson, and Cedric Phillips with regards to their views. Why?

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Post by LeoTzu » 1 year ago

A lot of people are just tired of the Twin discussion. It's been hashed, rehashed, blended up, cooked on the griddle, and then rehashed again. I think if people get heated about it and start lashing out, it's mostly because of the fatigue of discussing the issue. It doesn't make hostility around the subject alright, but that's most likely the place it's coming from.


Phoenix's recent performance does show some similarities to Twin during its prime… but the entire landscape of Modern is an entirely different animal at this point. I don't even think it would be fair to judge Phoenix based on the standards that were imposed on Twin at the time. That being said, I believe Twin shouldn't have been banned. I don't think Phoenix needs to be banned. I could see WotC, on the other hand, taking action against the deck based on performance.


I also think WotC has learned a little bit from the way they handled Twin. Whether or not you believe Twin was a correct ban, it's pretty obvious that the way they rolled it out and the timing made them look bad. I doubt they'll make the same mistake by dealing with Phoenix in the same fashion.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

I'm just trying to understand why you felt the need to say this (when combined with stressing the "Wizards has data" line):
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
But the truth is: our voice is not the one that is being heard. Brian De Mars's voice is the one people and Wizards will hear. Really believe this article sheds some light on the occasion and really believe article like this are making Splinter Twin more difficult to unban.
Just seems like a strange thing to say when he says this in the article:
Brian DeMars wrote:I don’t have a ton of micro-level data for eight-year-old metagames at my disposal, so I’ll be going largely on memory and my impression of the metagames of yore that led up to a ban. ... much of the list will be compiled and based on observations and impressions that are subjective, I would be shocked if people didn’t disagree with the relative placement of decks on the list. If you disagree, I encourage you to drop a comment below and discuss the “why” behind your opinion. While this is a for-funsies, nostalgia topic, it’s also a Magic theory topic

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TheAnswer
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Post by TheAnswer » 1 year ago

Do you honestly think that, in the chaotic forum that is the Internet, certain content creators do not rise to the top? I'm fairly certain we can all agree that, while we might discuss among ourselves, nothing we say here will be carried much further than the few users who post here. Professional MtG players have clout that we simply do not, and even in that crowd I would argue there is a spectrum of respectability. I personally put more faith into people who do not write weekly columns, because by the nature of their job description they need to create eye-grabbing content that results in website hits. So while Emma, and Todd are certainly no slouches when it comes to playing Magic, their written work is suspect because it at times comes with the StarCityGames Premium price tag. Cedric is hilarious, and I really like his analysis as a commentator, but I still think that, when he sits down to write an article like the one we're referring to, his number one job is to grab the reader's attention, sometimes with "hot takes" that they know will cause a reaction from the audience.

I used to tune into Matt Nas's stream near the end of KCI's reign, and it was a good time listening to him. He didn't really say things super controversial, he just matter-of-factly stated his case (for KCI to be banned, for what it's worth) and it felt more genuine than reading the "10 Cards You Won't Believe Aren't Banned Yet (You'll LOL at Number 7!!!)" type articles. I was kind of wary when I saw he and LSV had started doing "Ban Wagon" videos, as the name itself is cringy and leads me to believe it's click-baity and probably less than genuine, but I admit I haven't seen any of it yet.

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Post by Necrofish » 1 year ago

I doubt anyone working on the balance of Modern at WotC is taking these articles as anything more than subjective opinions. They have a lot of data and they should have enough self-respect to not let their own opinions be swept away by some semi-famous names.
On the other hand, I can't even imagine how much thought and time they put into every decision. They'll have to go through a lot of possible scenarios. There is no room for others' opinions.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Wizards has the data on Looting. They know it's fine, that's why they don't mention it in their announcements and literally dismissing any talk that they could destroy all graveyard strategies.
I think they're keeping an eye on it, as are a lot of people right now. The reason they don't mention it is to not stir up any drama or warp the perception of the playerbase.
Also I want to mention it's not an easy thing to just ban something once it has been decided it's too strong or broken. WotC methodically targets single cards to cripple overpowered strategies while keeping most decks intact. A card as popular as Faithless Looting cannot simply be taken away without breaking the cardhouse. It's not always a question "whether" to ban something, but "how" to do it.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Necrofish wrote:
1 year ago
A card as popular as Faithless Looting cannot simply be taken away without breaking the cardhouse. It's not always a question "whether" to ban something, but "how" to do it.
One could argue that the "cardhouse" being held up by Looting are all obnoxious decks that are awful to play against, in addition to powering up competitively dominant decks that have reached levels where previous bans have been justified. And that tearing down that card house is entirely worth it for the overall health of the format. If the next 8 months look anything like the previous 8, Looting is gone.

Emma Handy put it best: "We'll be able to tell how important Faithless Looting is to Wizards when they choose to either ban Faithless Looting or just ban some card that it breaks once or twice a year."

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Until then, enjoy Modern. I think it is super fun, interactive and diverse at the moment!
It is absolutely hilarious that you keep repeating this!
:grin: :laugh: :grin: :laugh: :grin: :laugh: :thinking: :crazy:

I wish I was playing the same Modern you are!
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 1 year ago

I found Modern plenty of interaction and very fun at the moment. Not everybody has the same parameters, but I was enjoying it in Twin times and I still am nowadays.

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Post by TheAnswer » 1 year ago

Ugh, I saw the final, and I was cringing really hard with the play from the Jund player. The misplay with Chandra, Torch of Defiance had me pretty upset (I'm like 98% sure it could have been walked back). Sorry, venting over.

It was really neat to see UW and Jund back at the top!

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Was that the event with someone playing UB Ninja with Smoke Shroud hard cast on a Fairy? :p

I think I saw it on twitch clip.

Regardless, I sure hope Jund is legit again and not just seeing a 'BBE Bubble' like early last year.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
The last big Modern event, and final that I saw, was at Redbull Untapped at Belgium.
You mean the non-swiss 8 round event that was half Horizons Sealed? I wouldn't put too much stock in these exhibitions. But sure. If this was the norm, and not the exception, I would almost be inclined to agree with you. Though with the adaptation of Teferi, Time Raveler and Narset, Parter of Veils, using the word "interactive" is fairly generous for UW these days, IMO. That's like saying Chalice of the Void, Blood Moon, and Ensnaring Bridge are "interactive."
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Regardless, I sure hope Jund is legit again and not just seeing a 'BBE Bubble' like early last year.
Nurturing Peatland, Wrenn and Six, Hexdrinker, and Seasoned Pyromancer all seem like excellent upgrades. Hopefully the real deal. I would love nothing more than a field of Jund and interactive decks, instead of Tron, Dredge, Phoenix, Burn, Urza, and various Prison decks.
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Post by TheAnswer » 1 year ago

Relax, I haven't seen a list that runs more than 2 3feri, and Narset is a down-only walker that just stops cantrips. Plenty of the format gets around her. Actual prison pieces, like Chalice, get played as 4 ofs or have ways to tutor for them, like Bridge.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

TheAnswer wrote:
1 year ago
Relax, I haven't seen a list that runs more than 2 3feri, and Narset is a down-only walker that just stops cantrips. Plenty of the format gets around her. Actual prison pieces, like Chalice, get played as 4 ofs or have ways to tutor for them, like Bridge.
Was more interested in making sure people realize how pointless the Red Bull results are. But sure. While not the backbone of UW, these two new walkers are one of the big reasons why it has been seeing more success lately (along with Path and RIP/Stony/etc).

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Whenever a relatively high calibre event with high calibre players presents a final like UW vs Jund, I am a happy man!
Iduno, that Top 8 looked full of sloppy play and errors. It was also the result of several rounds of non-Swiss Limited and only 5 of Modern, so.... Again, the results are neat, but don't mean anything.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

I also view twin and pheonix as very similar, but with pheonix obviously being worse due to lack of combo finish. Thing and pheonix are technical combo peices I guess and they are very good, thing inparticular is great against any creature deck, but not the same kind of win con as twin was. I did build it, but swapped it out to mono red pheonix and now I'm playing a different deck entirely.
I think I would play twin today with some main deck changes like bloodmoon, anger of the gods, narset or something hateful like that , but if it didn't do well the first few times I take it out I would switch to something else pretty quickly. It is an entirely different format from what it was when twin was banned. I would also try out some other new blue toys unbanned after twin left like AV and JTMS. IDK, the twin deck could look like anything now.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Necrofish wrote:
1 year ago
The photoshop is terrible but it got a chuckle out of me.
Cannot find in the thread, where is it? thanks
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
https://www.channelfireball.com/article ... -all-time/

New article from Brian De mars: Top 8 most ban worthy modern decks of all times!
that was a good read. Eye of Ugin does look a bit like.. candy. :drool:
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
https://www.channelfireball.com/article ... -all-time/

New article from Brian De mars: Top 8 most ban worthy modern decks of all times!
that was a good read. Eye of Ugin does look a bit like.. candy. :drool:
Ok, It's an opinion artical, I get it. It was a fun read.

But twin at #1???? They didn't call it twin winter, and they didn't ban it after 3 weeks being legal.

I'm not trying to get the twin arguemwnt going, but that #1 ranking is...... a bit extreme IMO.

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TheAnswer
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Post by TheAnswer » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
https://www.channelfireball.com/article ... -all-time/

New article from Brian De mars: Top 8 most ban worthy modern decks of all times!
that was a good read. Eye of Ugin does look a bit like.. candy. :drool:
Ok, It's an opinion artical, I get it. It was a fun read.

But twin at #1???? They didn't call it twin winter, and they didn't ban it after 3 weeks being legal.

I'm not trying to get the twin arguemwnt going, but that #1 ranking is...... a bit extreme IMO.
I think he does a good job of explaining his rationale, and on top of that you can remember that, like you said, this is an opinion piece, and I guarantee that placing Twin at #1 caused more discussion than if he had given that spot to Eye of Ugin. (I mean, look, that decision caused you to create a post on a totally different site and provide yet another comment on his article, and then I responded to you. It's a science, guys. And we're all the guinea pigs. Twin is literally a bell to our Pavlovian dogs.)

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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

My problem with his rational is it doesn't seem to be backed by any actual numbers nor does it even cite ban rational. Eldrazi performed objectively better than Twin in the few months Eye remained legal in an otherwise identical meta, and yet he doesn't bother highlighting its breakout conversion rate or its absolute tournament dominance. Meanwhile he describes Twin with much harsher qualitative statements even though Twin simply never had the dominance carried by Eldrazi or Bridgevine. Even if you thought the Twin ban was a good one, putting it at the very top strikes me as something done not necessarily because he believes it was the most necessary ban ever, but because it'll get more views, something that I wish writers for sites like these would put themselves above doing.

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Post by TheAnswer » 1 year ago

And I quote, directly from the first chunk of the article:
I don’t have a ton of micro-level data for eight-year-old metagames at my disposal, so I’ll be going largely on memory and my impression of the metagames of yore that led up to a ban. Which brings me to my second point…
His rationale wasn't backed by numbers at all, and he admitted it.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Gotta get those clicks and engagement. Best way to do that is with a controversial claim, backed up by a hearty dose of opinion.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
Question about the new site: do we have the same moderators as before or do we even have moderators right now? The small arguement a few posts up just made me wonder.
I am one of the moderators here, but am not always able to audit every page of a thread. If you think someone is breaking thread or forum rules, please report it to ensure the quickest response.
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