[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

Tomatotime
Posts: 197
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

I don't know if having format police is necessarily even a positive goal for us to strive towards in terms of Modern. I think the main flaw in the logic of format police is that it basically says that an arbitrary selection of decks is considered above the law so to speak and are treated as sacred cows, this can just as easily lead to format problems. We saw this in Twin, a deck that when it was banned absolutely had the highest format dominance compared to anything else when considering all of its combined variants.

I think a healthier long term goal to have for the format is to simply say, lets have a format where even if fair decks aren't number 1, at least the format isn't actively hostile towards them, which it absolutely is right now. I was talking to someone I know at FNM a couple weeks ago in terms of the problems Modern is having and he said something quite insightful, he said that if Delver is legal in a particular format, and Delver is not viable in that format, there is a problem. I thought about that for a while and I think I agree with the general sentiment. Personally, I would love Modern to be such that I could sleeve up Slivers and go to town, but we simply don't live in that world right now.

Also if you are dead set on having a police deck as the manner in which play is regulated within a format, what kind of deck should it be? I think the Twin ban, and the aftermath of it, showed that there are a significant percentage of the player base that was perfectly fine with seeing Twin banned because they did not like the idea of the police deck being a combo deck, whereas Jund tends to be a much more honest actor and universally considered as such.

User avatar
pierreb
Posts: 266
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Up North

Post by pierreb » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Prevent degenerate decks from dominating.
Prevent linear decks from dominating.
Prevent any one deck, from dominating.
Provide a core to the format, or pillars, around which the other archetypes can still find space to leverage the meta.

BGx (Jund/Junk) and URx (Twin, Grixis Control) did this. Part of me wants to write something really long and general about this dynamic, but I doubt it really (ok it doesnt) matters to most people, so I'll spare you from my diatribe. :p
Thanks, that's what I suspected. To me, this sounds like a revisionist reading of history. Just because no broken deck emerged in modern for some time does not mean these two decks were successfully policing anything. They would not have prevented eldrazi winter, tron, hogaak, or anything.

Tomatotime
Posts: 197
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

pierreb wrote:
1 year ago
Thanks, that's what I suspected. To me, this sounds like a revisionist reading of history. Just because no broken deck emerged in modern for some time does not mean these two decks were successfully policing anything. They would not have prevented eldrazi winter, tron, hogaak, or anything.
I agree, and this "golden age" of Modern didn't even stop Amulet Bloom from taking over which needed a ban as well despite having "police" decks in the format. People have very rose tinted glasses when they look back at this period.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

pierreb wrote:
1 year ago
Just because no broken deck emerged in modern for some time does not mean these two decks were successfully policing anything. They would not have prevented eldrazi winter, tron, hogaak, or anything.
1st. If Twin policed nothing, then it REALLY didnt need a ban.
2nd. Twin absolutely did have a limiting impact on Tron.

It also, in combination with BGx, was able to keep the creature based decks from taking over, as we saw Humans/Spirits/Mardu do for a period.
Tomatotime wrote:
1 year ago
I agree, and this "golden age" of Modern didn't even stop Amulet Bloom from taking over which needed a ban as well despite having "police" decks in the format. People have very rose tinted glasses when they look back at this period.
Bloom never dominated. Bloom died because (it should have) of a few really choice clips that circulated, and its ability to go off just a turn too fast for even Wizard's acceptance of the '4 turn rule'.

It never reached bannable stats, it was stopped too soon.
UR Control UR

Tomatotime
Posts: 197
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
1st. If Twin policed nothing, then it REALLY didnt need a ban.
2nd. Twin absolutely did have a limiting impact on Tron.

It also, in combination with BGx, was able to keep the creature based decks from taking over, as we saw Humans/Spirits/Mardu do for a period.
Twin policed plenty of decks, before twin got banned, the very notion of playing most 3 CMC sorcery speed cards was a joke, and decks that ran black were fairly expected to have to run some number of slaughter pact just because of the extreme effect that Twin had on the meta. Also Twin was not banned due to it being or not being a "police" deck, it was banned due to combined metagame share statistics.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Bloom never dominated. Bloom died because (it should have) of a few really choice clips that circulated, and its ability to go off just a turn too fast for even Wizard's acceptance of the '4 turn rule'.

It never reached bannable stats, it was stopped too soon.
It doesn't matter if it dominated or not, in Modern we accept the turn 4 rule as a reasonable precedent for standards of play, this has been the case for years, Summer Bloom broke that rule and so it was banned, we don't need anything more than that to justify it's banning, not winrates, not metagame shares, nothing.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

That would be my view (it did police things, in combo with BGx and Grixis) but obviously I cannot agree on its ban criteria.

The Turn 4 rule is not a rule that is actually applied though. Turn 3 perhaps (Storm) but ya I would agree it (Bloom) won too fast, and was banned on that criteria.
UR Control UR

User avatar
Tzoulis
Posts: 279
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Prevent degenerate decks from dominating.
Prevent linear decks from dominating.
Prevent any one deck, from dominating.
Provide a core to the format, or pillars, around which the other archetypes can still find space to leverage the meta.

BGx (Jund/Junk) and URx (Twin, Grixis Control) did this. Part of me wants to write something really long and general about this dynamic, but I doubt it really (ok it doesnt) matters to most people, so I'll spare you from my diatribe. :p

Regardless, there is now a State of Pioneer. Peace!
Again, why is Jund put in such a pedestal? Why does it HAVE, or rather DESERVE, to be T1 any more than any other "fair" deck? Why can't the midrange-esque police deck be Humans or UWx Blade decks? Why does it have to be BGx to even consider a format as "healthy" or "good"?

If we consider Twin as the police deck of its time and as non-degenerate, then why are we labeling non-Ascendancy Urza decks as degenerate and why can't they be the format's police decks?

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tomatotime wrote:
1 year ago
Twin policed plenty of decks, before twin got banned, the very notion of playing most 3 CMC sorcery speed cards was a joke
Which is an ironic thing to believe, given the exponential explosion to the format's speed immediately following Twin's ban, and for the entirety of 2016... :thinking:
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
If we consider Twin as the police deck of its time and as non-degenerate, then why are we labeling non-Ascendancy Urza decks as degenerate and why can't they be the format's police decks?
One is super easy to interact with, using a number of maindeckable cards, like creature removal, discard spells, and counters. The other requires multiple, different, narrow answers, which don't even really stop it, just kind of slow it down from one particular angle.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Prevent degenerate decks from dominating.
Prevent linear decks from dominating.
Prevent any one deck, from dominating.
Provide a core to the format, or pillars, around which the other archetypes can still find space to leverage the meta.

BGx (Jund/Junk) and URx (Twin, Grixis Control) did this. Part of me wants to write something really long and general about this dynamic, but I doubt it really (ok it doesnt) matters to most people, so I'll spare you from my diatribe. :p

Regardless, there is now a State of Pioneer. Peace!
Again, why is Jund put in such a pedestal? Why does it HAVE, or rather DESERVE, to be T1 any more than any other "fair" deck? Why can't the midrange-esque police deck be Humans or UWx Blade decks? Why does it have to be BGx to even consider a format as "healthy" or "good"?
Jund, or Junk. Because a true Midrange deck that thrives on Discard, Removal, and attrition, works in tandem with the Tempo/Counter/Removal deck, to police the diversity of a format like Modern, and keep 'turn 4' as an actual rule.

If a UWx Midrange deck was a non-meme...well sure? I doubt such a thing is real though, and not just another T3feri abomination parading as a fair deck.

It's like the joke that Phoenix was a fair Midrange deck. Just because SCG says it, doesn't make it true.

I maintain that Modern would be better with 2 pillars, BGx and URx, and everything else in orbit around them.

I've never seen an argument otherwise.
UR Control UR

User avatar
pierreb
Posts: 266
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Up North

Post by pierreb » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
1st. If Twin policed nothing, then it REALLY didnt need a ban.
2nd. Twin absolutely did have a limiting impact on Tron.
Seems to me you say policing when you really means the deck was dominant and you liked it.

(You also entirely avoided explaining how twin would have changed anything to anything vs eldrazi, hogaak, and other situations you claimed "They don't police it. If they did, we would not have decks reaching the % of the meta we did, or bans being needed." )

Yawgmoth
Posts: 170
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Prevent degenerate decks from dominating.
Prevent linear decks from dominating.
Prevent any one deck, from dominating.
Provide a core to the format, or pillars, around which the other archetypes can still find space to leverage the meta.

BGx (Jund/Junk) and URx (Twin, Grixis Control) did this. Part of me wants to write something really long and general about this dynamic, but I doubt it really (ok it doesnt) matters to most people, so I'll spare you from my diatribe. :p

Regardless, there is now a State of Pioneer. Peace!
Again, why is Jund put in such a pedestal? Why does it HAVE, or rather DESERVE, to be T1 any more than any other "fair" deck? Why can't the midrange-esque police deck be Humans or UWx Blade decks? Why does it have to be BGx to even consider a format as "healthy" or "good"?
Jund, or Junk. Because a true Midrange deck that thrives on Discard, Removal, and attrition, works in tandem with the Tempo/Counter/Removal deck, to police the diversity of a format like Modern, and keep 'turn 4' as an actual rule.

If a UWx Midrange deck was a non-meme...well sure? I doubt such a thing is real though, and not just another T3feri abomination parading as a fair deck.

It's like the joke that Phoenix was a fair Midrange deck. Just because SCG says it, doesn't make it true.

I maintain that Modern would be better with 2 pillars, BGx and URx, and everything else in orbit around them.

I've never seen an argument otherwise.
When I started playing Modern (and Magic) in 2012 the meta seemed wide open. Playing against Jund and U control crushed that sense of exploration/experimentation because there was always at least 2 obviously better decks.

I'm all for police but police are not the same thing as two parties ruling at the expense of everyone else.

I'm also not arguing that the Jund/U Control meta was terrible to play in just that it stifled creativity and made the game a lot less fun. As a new player it was when I stopped playing home brews and started to look at what the "archetypes" were and forced myself to pick one and stick with it (for better or worse).

All this to say, if you weren't playing Jund/Control then early modern was no fun. I can see how Jund/control players might not like losing the top tier but it's not like one state is inherently better.

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 816
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Bloom never dominated. Bloom died because (it should have) of a few really choice clips that circulated, and its ability to go off just a turn too fast for even Wizard's acceptance of the '4 turn rule'.

It never reached bannable stats, it was stopped too soon.
This is correct. I now can agree with the ban. It just hurt at the time and was tough to swallow when I saw so many players lose to it because of misplays.
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Again, why is Jund put in such a pedestal? Why does it HAVE, or rather DESERVE, to be T1 any more than any other "fair" deck? Why can't the midrange-esque police deck be Humans or UWx Blade decks? Why does it have to be BGx to even consider a format as "healthy" or "good"?

If we consider Twin as the police deck of its time and as non-degenerate, then why are we labeling non-Ascendancy Urza decks as degenerate and why can't they be the format's police decks?
I will say this - I have been and still am a Jund hater ever since Conflux. At the time, it literally required a player to tap 2RG and cascade a Bloodbraid Elf in order to win. Nowadays, it takes much more skill. But that's beside the point. I've been on the UW side in the beginning and my hate for Jund hasn't simmered down much.

But I have learned to realize that when Jund is a major player in Modern, then the format is more reactive. I love playing Combo, but when the format devolves into "who has the quicker Combo," then it takes some of the fun out of it. Because then it gets to "who has the quicker combo AND won't fizzle or not find it." This is not fun to me. I like to be one of the few players playing Combo, mostly because players don't expect it to be good and are not gunning for it. This leaves them with fewer hate cards, so it's my deck vs. theirs without the hate. That's a battle I feel confident winning. The other thing is that Jund is a Midrange deck, so it often preys on Aggro decks. This is also good for Combo players because Aggro has gotten to the point where it rarely loses to anything. As a Combo player in the past, I remember beating up on Aggro because that was just the deck type that barely interacts with me and has a slower clock. But now for the most part in Modern, Aggro has gotten to the point where it can handle almost anything except the odd somewhat fringe deck or hate at the right times. I have learned just how important Jund IS to the meta.

Now I can say that about other decks as well. I found out the importance of decks like Tron too. But I personally feel that Jund forces the format to be more interactive and that makes the format less like "two ships passing in the sea" every single game. That is interesting from time to time, but can get old. Believe me, I was the same as you. I wondered why Jund should be put on a pedestal. I was super happy when E Winter came and Jund was pushed out. I was happy when Treasure Cruise and specifically Pod (which stomped Jund) pushed Jund out. But nowadays, I can remember the importance of decks like Jund and to a lesser extent, Splinter Twin too.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

pierreb wrote:
1 year ago
Seems to me you say policing when you really means the deck was dominant and you liked it.

(You also entirely avoided explaining how twin would have changed anything to anything vs eldrazi, hogaak, and other situations you claimed "They don't police it. If they did, we would not have decks reaching the % of the meta we did, or bans being needed." )
It was a strong deck with a unique play pattern that has NEVER been duplicated. Funny thing is actually it was NOT a strong deck, so much as a strong Win Condition. The deck itself (Blue Moon really is all it is post Twin) is overrated and frankly unplayable from then, to today.

VS full power Eldrazi, Hoggak? No difference. Those decks are legit BUSTED. Like 'no banlist winners' busted.

Would Twin have helped to control the Faithless Family of decks? I think it would have. I think it would have been able to keep dredge and various other linear decks from being able to go all in, and instead have to actually respect interaction so it would have kept those meta numbers down.
Yawgmoth wrote:
1 year ago
When I started playing Modern (and Magic) in 2012 the meta seemed wide open. Playing against Jund and U control crushed that sense of exploration/experimentation because there was always at least 2 obviously better decks.

I'm all for police but police are not the same thing as two parties ruling at the expense of everyone else.
Only, it wasnt. There was no meaningful change in diversity when KtK and I last looked into the numbers. Consider 2019 was poor even by Modern standards in this regard, I'm comfortable estimating that when added to the data set of 'Post Twin' Modern has actually never been worse for people's 'brews'.

You still pick a winning archetype, or a broken deck, or you lose. Nothing has, or will, change in that regard, but the flavour you get to pick before it is either banned, or rendered pointless by any number of cards which Wizards is pushing through Standard that since War of the Spark have completely tilted near every single format. From T3feri, to Veil, to Narset, to Hogaak, to Urza, to whatever.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
But I have learned to realize that when Jund is a major player in Modern, then the format is more reactive. I love playing Combo, but when the format devolves into "who has the quicker Combo," then it takes some of the fun out of it. Because then it gets to "who has the quicker combo AND won't fizzle or not find it." This is not fun to me. I like to be one of the few players playing Combo, mostly because players don't expect it to be good and are not gunning for it. This leaves them with fewer hate cards, so it's my deck vs. theirs without the hate. That's a battle I feel confident winning. The other thing is that Jund is a Midrange deck, so it often preys on Aggro decks. This is also good for Combo players because Aggro has gotten to the point where it rarely loses to anything. As a Combo player in the past, I remember beating up on Aggro because that was just the deck type that barely interacts with me and has a slower clock. But now for the most part in Modern, Aggro has gotten to the point where it can handle almost anything except the odd somewhat fringe deck or hate at the right times. I have learned just how important Jund IS to the meta.

Now I can say that about other decks as well. I found out the importance of decks like Tron too. But I personally feel that Jund forces the format to be more interactive and that makes the format less like "two ships passing in the sea" every single game. That is interesting from time to time, but can get old. Believe me, I was the same as you. I wondered why Jund should be put on a pedestal. I was super happy when E Winter came and Jund was pushed out. I was happy when Treasure Cruise and specifically Pod (which stomped Jund) pushed Jund out. But nowadays, I can remember the importance of decks like Jund and to a lesser extent, Splinter Twin too.
The bold is my point. Its not about 'a' deck, so much as it is the influence certain decks have had historically that HAVE NOT ever been replicated.

BGx has as a macro archetype never been replaced, not by Mardu, not by GDS.
UR Twin has never been even CLOSE to replaced. No deck comes even remotely close and anyone who says otherwise has no knowledge of what they speak.

These decks ABSOLUTELY leaned on the format but you know what was competitive at the time? What also did win games?

Grixis Control
Affinity
Tron
Burn
Bloom
Grishoalbrand
Elves

And the list goes on.

Where those the BEST choices? No, not likely. However it literally is no different than today, only today your 'fair ish Midrange' is Humans, that can put a blistering clock on you because REALLY its just yet one more aggro deck.

If people actually wanted Modern as a format to improve in health, they would want a BGx, and a Tempo/Control URx deck to be strong and competitive enough to influence the meta away from 'my thing beats your thing'.
UR Control UR

Yawgmoth
Posts: 170
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Yawgmoth wrote:
1 year ago
When I started playing Modern (and Magic) in 2012 the meta seemed wide open. Playing against Jund and U control crushed that sense of exploration/experimentation because there was always at least 2 obviously better decks.

I'm all for police but police are not the same thing as two parties ruling at the expense of everyone else.
Only, it wasnt. There was no meaningful change in diversity when KtK and I last looked into the numbers. Consider 2019 was poor even by Modern standards in this regard, I'm comfortable estimating that when added to the data set of 'Post Twin' Modern has actually never been worse for people's 'brews'.

You still pick a winning archetype, or a broken deck, or you lose. Nothing has, or will, change in that regard, but the flavour you get to pick before it is either banned, or rendered pointless by any number of cards which Wizards is pushing through Standard that since War of the Spark have completely tilted near every single format. From T3feri, to Veil, to Narset, to Hogaak, to Urza, to whatever.

I think we mostly agree. For example, the meta was definitely less open than I realized at the time and it's probably slightly less open now. You still have three choices (winning/broken/jank). But I guess my point was that back when Jund and Control were the "police" there was not that much to police. They were the boogie men. Unless I'm misremembering. I don't think that Jund was holding back the tide of broken decks in 2013; it was mostly winning v. jank. So in that sense I think something has definitely changed since 2012. You seem to think that the police lost their mandate so something must have changed to produce that.

It's possible that people hadn't "solved" the meta yet and thus broken decks were harder to make. Or maybe they've since printed a bunch of easily broken cards leading to more broken decks. I'm not sure.

I love playing against interactive decks and I also like playing with them so I think we want the same ends. I'm just trying to figure out what you think led to less interactive decks: bad card design, format solving/breaking, or bannings? If it's either of the first two then unbanning twin (or whatever) won't solve the problem. At the same time, bans are stupid and I think less is more. (Why is Maralen of the Mornsong banned?).

Maybe another way to address your desire for policing is to imagine what effective policing looks like. What do Jund/UB control need to play policemen and restore order to today's modern?

User avatar
Ym1r
Posts: 153
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Jund, or Junk. Because a true Midrange deck that thrives on Discard, Removal, and attrition, works in tandem with the Tempo/Counter/Removal deck, to police the diversity of a format like Modern, and keep 'turn 4' as an actual rule.

If a UWx Midrange deck was a non-meme...well sure? I doubt such a thing is real though, and not just another T3feri abomination parading as a fair deck.

It's like the joke that Phoenix was a fair Midrange deck. Just because SCG says it, doesn't make it true.

I maintain that Modern would be better with 2 pillars, BGx and URx, and everything else in orbit around them.

I've never seen an argument otherwise.
Sorry but you are making your personal opinions into format wide claims. I am a dedicated control player and I think this is an absurd take.

You are saying a "true Midrange deck", but clearly you ONLY mean BGx. Simic Urza has the potential to become a policing midrange deck but you just don't like it/think it should play tarmo/discard otherwise it doesn't qualify. The argument that it works in tandem with the tempo/counter/removal deck is just fale. As long as DRS was legal and Jund was the abomination that it was tempo was not even REMOTELY a thing. Delver only had a very brief period of success and the same goes for aggro/tempo like Merfolk. The only reason that Jund kept the format as "T4" format is because it was absurdly powerful (with DRS), just couldn't win before that. It would definitely win after that though.

You talk about UWx midrange not being a meme, but only your take of UWx midrange. You don't want a midrange deck to play literally the best midrange card in its colors T3feri. Sorry, but if I am playing UWx midrange (and I am from time to time) I will ALWAYS sleeve up T3feri and I don't see the problem. If someone hated LotV, and a lot of people did back in the day, you could make the same argument "I want a true midrange deck, not some LotV abomination.

Of all the aggro combo decks we've seen, Phoenix was rather midrange-y. Just because in your book it's not also doesn't make it true.

So you want the deck that you like/like to play against be the best decks, and everyone else should basically shut it, because BGx and Twin (not URx, just twin lets be real), are holy grails.

You have seen plenty of arguments otherwise, you just choose to ignore them. Too bad cards have been printed since 2012 I guess.
Counter, draw a card.

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 1943
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Contact:

Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
You have seen plenty of arguments otherwise, you just choose to ignore them. Too bad cards have been printed since 2012 I guess.
I don't fully understand what's being argued about as I have not read all the walls of texts on this page and the previous. But it seems Idsurge wants ur and bg to be "pillars" of the format.

just my short opinion on this. The only thing permanent is change, and that applies here. The pillars or the best decks cannot be sitting on the top forever, at some point the torch has to be passed.. this would be either by new and better decks emerging, or by bannings causing decks to disappear.

I think Ymir makes a good point on the topic. Indeed more cards were printed since 2012. Time to move on. :)
Image
AnimEVO 2020 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

User avatar
robertleva
Posts: 484
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

At the end of the day you guys are beating a dead horse, and that dead horse is the Modern format. Modern didn't get to this sorry state overnight, it took years of banlist mismanagement and cards printed that support degenerate, non interactive strategies (looting, hogaak, etc). CAN wotc even fix this mess now? The answer is a very skeptical "maybe", but it would take DRASTIC changes to the banlist as it stands currently AND to the philosophy of supporting degenerate strategies. The problem with that idea is people like those on this forum, you know the ones, the "Looting is Fine, Hogaak is Fine, Unban Twin". These are people that like the degenerate, unfun strategies that Modern has indulged up until this point.

It seems Wotc actually knows this, and instead of even attempting to repair the sinking ship that is Modern they just pressed the reset button and created Pioneer. With Pioneer they will (hopefully) not make all the same mistakes they made in Modern. They will keep the format interactive and keep the banlist minimal, with frequent updates. These are the exact changes that Modern would need to survive if you stop and think about it.
Robert Leva
Creator of Modern's 8Rack Deck
Image

User avatar
pierreb
Posts: 266
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Up North

Post by pierreb » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
But I have learned to realize that when Jund is a major player in Modern, then the format is more reactive.
This is the gist and the right way to put it. Jund is not a police deck, it's a canary deck. When Jund is good enough to put up results, it's an indication that the format allows and rewards interactive decks. That I can agree on and understand why people would like it.

PS: not every one thinks the current modern is awful. Then again, I believed phoenix was not the ugly monster so many claim it was.

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 553
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Pioneer will be as badly managed as Modern, only in a different way.
Pioneer will be pox ridden aggro and midrange with almost no combo and very little control. This is because it is full of overpowered creatures and outside of rtr block and recent m sets, poor creature kill. They are not going to start printing great wraths and one c removal.

Modern will be the fun but slightly skilless match up lopside fest it always is, because the tools are not there to give consistency to the answer decks, meaning you pack answers to a couple of decks and hope to draw them whilst hoping to dodge the ten pc matches.

I don't think Modern was ever going to be anything other than it was. The move away from stack based interaction and remival for everything towards critters and planeswalkers meant that it was destined to be a mish mash of unbalanced cards with answers you could not reliably draw.

I have always enjoyed Modern and always will, but it is a deeply flawed format, and to beat the above horse again in a different way, was just as flawed to me in the Twin/Jund era as it is now. Both decks forgave mistakes and enabled mediocre players to win events because of their very nature. I enjoyed Modern then as much as now, but would not recommend it, if that makes sense.

metalmusic_4
Posts: 260
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

I am going to continue playing modern as my main format but my LGS is shifting to pioneer instead of modern. If i want to continue to play modern anywhere but my kitchin table I am going to have to drive 45 min each way.
Answer: I'm converting several of my weaker modern decks to pioneer. UR pheonix, boggles, dredge-less dredge and a few others. I maintain 3 Legacy decks too and only 1 EDH deck. I believe a larger number of formats allows people to play what they want and the formats people dont want to play just die off over time. If people want to play modern it will continue to live on.

Separate note: what are people predicting about the B&R on Nov 18th? Whirza variants still seem to be a problem to me.

Tomatotime
Posts: 197
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Modern didn't get to this sorry state overnight, it took years of banlist mismanagement and cards printed that support degenerate, non interactive strategies (looting, hogaak, etc). CAN wotc even fix this mess now?
Honestly I would say no, easily. The amount of drastic action that would be required to rework Modern into something reasonable is no small matter, and for years they have been kicking the can down the road which just makes it even less likely for them to start now. Smart money says start selling excess Modern stock that you aren't using, I myself started selling out of most of my Modern collection about 6 months ago as I simply had a bad feeling about the format I couldn't shake, now I feel justified.
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Pioneer will be as badly managed as Modern, only in a different way.
Pioneer will be pox ridden aggro and midrange with almost no combo and very little control. This is because it is full of overpowered creatures and outside of rtr block and recent m sets, poor creature kill. They are not going to start printing great wraths and one c removal.
To be fair, if the bulk of the Pioneer playerbase is made of disaffected Modern players, they might welcome a lack of combo with more of an emphasis on Midrange, at least for a year or two. And to be fair, in terms of sweepers, Pioneer does have Supreme Verdict which is basically the best sweeper in Modern anyways.
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Modern will be the fun but slightly skilless match up lopside fest it always is, because the tools are not there to give consistency to the answer decks, meaning you pack answers to a couple of decks and hope to draw them whilst hoping to dodge the ten pc matches.

I don't think Modern was ever going to be anything other than it was. The move away from stack based interaction and remival for everything towards critters and planeswalkers meant that it was destined to be a mish mash of unbalanced cards with answers you could not reliably draw.

I have always enjoyed Modern and always will, but it is a deeply flawed format, and to beat the above horse again in a different way, was just as flawed to me in the Twin/Jund era as it is now. Both decks forgave mistakes and enabled mediocre players to win events because of their very nature. I enjoyed Modern then as much as now, but would not recommend it, if that makes sense.
I think this is a pretty good take, honestly when people talk about Modern and it's "golden age" it really is just rose tinted glasses that gets old at some point, there is value in being honest about what Modern always was at it's core. Also I agree in the sense that with the announcement of Pioneer, I think emotions are raw for some, and will continue to be, being able to take a more sober and detached view of the situation is healthier for everyone. Personally the move away from Modern and Pivot into Pioneer marks my departure from the game in anything other than an MTG finance perspective, and I think I can live with that.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
You are saying a "true Midrange deck", but clearly you ONLY mean BGx. Simic Urza has the potential to become a policing midrange deck but you just don't like it/think it should play tarmo/discard otherwise it doesn't qualify. The argument that it works in tandem with the tempo/counter/removal deck is just fale. As long as DRS was legal and Jund was the abomination that it was tempo was not even REMOTELY a thing. Delver only had a very brief period of success and the same goes for aggro/tempo like Merfolk. The only reason that Jund kept the format as "T4" format is because it was absurdly powerful (with DRS), just couldn't win before that. It would definitely win after that though.
Feel free to drop midrange all together from the defintion. I want a pillar of the format to be a Discard/Removal/Attrition deck. I think that is an important factor in format health.
Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
You talk about UWx midrange not being a meme, but only your take of UWx midrange. You don't want a midrange deck to play literally the best midrange card in its colors T3feri.
Any deck that depends on T3feri, is a net negative to me. The card, like Veil, is bad for any format it exists in. I dont want to play Hearthstone, and having that effect at that low of a cmc, in colours that could already win the long game, is just bad design.
Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Of all the aggro combo decks we've seen, Phoenix was rather midrange-y. Just because in your book it's not also doesn't make it true.
In any world where we will call Phoenix midrange, it has ceased to have any meaning as a term. Phoenix was not (pre Faithless ban) a Midrange deck, and its a hilarious stretch to call it so. SCG just wanted people to pretend Modern was healthy at the time. It was not, and Phoenix was a big reason Faithless was hit.
Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
So you want the deck that you like/like to play against be the best decks, and everyone else should basically shut it, because BGx and Twin (not URx, just twin lets be real), are holy grails.
This is only MOSTLY true. ;)

The only deck I actually foiled out, was Teferi/Azcanta UWR, from early 2018. So while yes Twin is the poster boy on the opposite side of BGx, it really is mostly about the environment fostered by these types of decks...like this here.
pierreb wrote:
1 year ago
This is the gist and the right way to put it. Jund is not a police deck, it's a canary deck. When Jund is good enough to put up results, it's an indication that the format allows and rewards interactive decks. That I can agree on and understand why people would like it.
This, is what I'm really after, but as noted by a few posters since, it IS a dead horse, and Modern will not be getting back to that, especially now with another format stealing the shine.

So it is what it is.
UR Control UR

User avatar
Tzoulis
Posts: 279
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Prevent degenerate decks from dominating.
Prevent linear decks from dominating.
Prevent any one deck, from dominating.
Provide a core to the format, or pillars, around which the other archetypes can still find space to leverage the meta.

BGx (Jund/Junk) and URx (Twin, Grixis Control) did this. Part of me wants to write something really long and general about this dynamic, but I doubt it really (ok it doesnt) matters to most people, so I'll spare you from my diatribe. :p

Regardless, there is now a State of Pioneer. Peace!
Again, why is Jund put in such a pedestal? Why does it HAVE, or rather DESERVE, to be T1 any more than any other "fair" deck? Why can't the midrange-esque police deck be Humans or UWx Blade decks? Why does it have to be BGx to even consider a format as "healthy" or "good"?
Jund, or Junk. Because a true Midrange deck that thrives on Discard, Removal, and attrition, works in tandem with the Tempo/Counter/Removal deck, to police the diversity of a format like Modern, and keep 'turn 4' as an actual rule.

If a UWx Midrange deck was a non-meme...well sure? I doubt such a thing is real though, and not just another T3feri abomination parading as a fair deck.

It's like the joke that Phoenix was a fair Midrange deck. Just because SCG says it, doesn't make it true.

I maintain that Modern would be better with 2 pillars, BGx and URx, and everything else in orbit around them.

I've never seen an argument otherwise.
So a "true" midrange deck exists only and only if they play discard AND goyf? What about BW Blade or BW Tokens? Esper Blade? Mardu Pyro?
None of these contain green, but supplement their creature based gameplan with discard, removals, CA and planeswalkers. So, I don't see the need why the hallowed Jund/BGx deserves to be the best "midrange" deck.

And no, UWx midrange is far from a "meme" and is a real, solid option in this meta and as bad as T3feri is design wise, its inclusion in a deck doesn't change the nature of the deck, he's same use as Liliana of the Veil, both are controling/disruptive and both are played in Control and Midrange decks

Modern always had 3 pillars (outside Eldrazi/Hogaak) that were at the top hunting each other out of 5, not 2 and the archetypes representing them don't have to be the same forever. To preempt the "fun" part, I hated the Twin and Jund meta and how it forced the metagame to revolve around them.
As mention above, why is Simic Urza a "bad" choice of a midrange/control police deck?
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Tomatotime wrote:
1 year ago
Twin policed plenty of decks, before twin got banned, the very notion of playing most 3 CMC sorcery speed cards was a joke
Which is an ironic thing to believe, given the exponential explosion to the format's speed immediately following Twin's ban, and for the entirety of 2016... :thinking:
You keep saying that, but it's not even true.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
So a "true" midrange deck exists only and only if they play discard AND goyf? What about BW Blade or BW Tokens? Esper Blade? Mardu Pyro?
None of these contain green, but supplement their creature based gameplan with discard, removals, CA and planeswalkers. So, I don't see the need why the hallowed Jund/BGx deserves to be the best "midrange" deck.
Doesnt have to be green, but Pyro really didnt play out in the way I envision, though probably iterations of it did. Tokens? Fine. Esper or BW Blade? Fine.

If those decks could get to the top, and stay there, I would be happy with that.
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
And no, UWx midrange is far from a "meme" and is a real, solid option in this meta and as bad as T3feri is design wise, its inclusion in a deck doesn't change the nature of the deck, he's same use as Liliana of the Veil, both are controling/disruptive and both are played in Control and Midrange decks
I disagree, but I can admit to being horrifically biased against T3feri. Rip that from the deck and if its good enough on its own merits then fine, but thats still not the format role I'm talking about.

Prison != Discard != Counters. If that makes sense.
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
As mention above, why is Simic Urza a "bad" choice of a midrange/control police deck?
Do you mean this?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/m ... acts#paper
UR Control UR

iTaLenTZ
Posts: 216
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

This weekend Dutch Open Series hosted the first Pioneer event. Around 80 people showed up. Modern had 120 people while they used to have 200+. Around 70 people attended Legacy, more than usual. I saw a lot of people who used to play Modern make the switch to Pioneer, also some made the switch to Legacy. Modern's attendance almost halved. On Sunday I sold 1/4 of my Modern collection to a vendor, I will keep 1 deck because it has a lot splashover with Pioneer and the rest I will sell individually over time.

It didn't really matter who I spoke, Pioneer and new Legacy players are very dissatisfied with Modern for years now and decided to make the permanent switch and most of the Modern players themselves are looking to get out of the format.

I played perhaps my last Modern event and lost to a turn 2 Urza Ascendancy kill while he was on the play. That pretty much confirmed the right decision is to quit Modern. Mox Amber, Snow-Island, Astrolabe, Emry-->hit Amber, I play fetch and Hierarch and opponent plays land and Ascendancy, asks me to scoop, I let him show me his Nexus of Fate and I scoop. I ended up playing 8 rounds. All rounds except 1 vs non-interactive decks like linear aggro (Elves, Burn, CrabVine) or ramp/combo (Valakut, 2x Urza, Devoted Druid). Funny enough the only game I enjoyed, which I lost 0-2, was vs Jund Death Shadow because it felt like real magic where decisions actually mattered and we had a lot of back and fore interaction.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Modern”