[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

spawnofhastur
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Post by spawnofhastur » 1 year ago

If Wizards of the Coast was a Japanese company, the people responsible for the last year of Magic would permanently be kicked upstairs and forced to wear a duncecap whenever they went to work.

It's laughable.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

As long as people are buying packs and pumping money into Arena, Wizards/Hasbro will do whatever the %$#% they want. That's what it all comes down to, nothing else matters.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Also, not really related to modern, but in terms of highlights. The "card series" from War of the Spark that follows Gideon leading up to his attack on Bolas was some of the most metal %$#% I've ever seen in Magic. Even riding on Rakdos himself with the black blade held over his head. It had the right amount of "oh %$#% he's going to make it!!" but also a tragic undertone that "Oh %$#% he's going to get %$#% up now!!"
Too bad the cards with that artwork suck, but the artwork and story is really cool. Really want Gideon Blackblade to be good, but mostly because I think the art is dope.
I also think War of the Spark made all the Gideon haters warm up to him. Too bad he died lol!
WAR spoiler season was one of the best for me. Followed it almost everyday at mtgs.

Gideon riding Rakdos is like something from a movie. Although me and my friends had a good laugh at the flavor text of tyrant's scorn.
I guess Bolas had heard about dragons being killed by hero with magic sword, so he made sure to be swordproof. :grin:
Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
BBE and SFM are inherently fair cards though. Bridge from Below on the other hand is inherently unfair; by design it is made to circumvent magic's resource system. Hell, if you play it for its mana cost it literally does nothing. There's a good chance Bridge from Below would be a fine unban but I am sure as hell happy if it would stay banned.
Every competetive deck that adds Bridge from Below to the deck list has plans to abuse the card. Well, but now that Faithless Looting is in the sin bin.. there might be chance to unban the bridge? I personally don't have any bad feelings toward it.. played against it a lot in legacy. But I remember my GDS player friend telling me a story his deck being trashed by Dredge, so other people might not want it unbanned. hehe :P

I guess whatever wotc wants to do with the card..
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
I am afraid Modern will become the dump yard of Pioneer and Standard. Everything that is toxic, degenerated and broken will be dumped onto the Modern players to keep those cards at least legal in a (still) popular eternal format so people can still play those cards somewhere. In Standard its almost certain brOko will eat a ban. The card is obviously too strong for Pioneer and Modern as well but because they want to keep selling packs and make sure brOko retains a certain price tag they will keep him legal in Modern. Same is true for Once Upon a Time, the most played card in Standard. I see dark times ahead.
I feel like that ship sailed long ago. They let Phoenix and Dredge wreck half this year, and then let Hogaak and Urza wreck the other half, including knowingly letting Hogaak ruin multiple big GPs. Modern just doesn't actually matter to them in terms of health. As long as people keep shelling out the cash for Modern Masters, Ultimate Masters, and not Modern Horizons, they see it as an absolute win; health be damned. But now that they have a new cash cow they can milk (Pioneer), then the need for Modern to be popular dwindles by the day.

If Pioneer does nothing else, it will shine the glaring light on the fact that many Modern players hate how much of a garbage fire of unregulated degeneracy it usually is. Maybe this means Modern fades into irrelevance as players leave in droves (and big paper event support drops), or maybe it means they will aggressively unban things like Twin and Pod because who even cares anymore? Either way, I think it is absolutely hilarious that a team was put together to SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS NOT MAKING STUPID BUSTED THINGS, and then that team continually made stupid busted things. Things that are considerably better and more powerful than several banned cards.

Dark times aren't ahead, we've already been in them. Pioneer, and the current state of design just tells us that light is not coming any time soon (if ever).
Its true. Only during that brief time where everyone was testing Stoneforge and Jace, thus playing subpar midrange decks, the format has not been fun. Modern Horizons was just a moneygrab because they knew back then already Pioneer was going to be a thing. That is why they deliberately overpushed and powercreeped Modern to increase demand for short-term gains. The fact that such policy is problematic in the long term for the format's health doesn't matter because they see Modern already as something that can't be salvaged balancewise so they move to the next cashcow.

look at Legacy: W6 should be banned but won't because they still need to sell MH packs
Look at Modern: Veil of Summer, Urza, Emry and Oko should be banned but won't because they are still in packs. Allosaurus should go.
Look at Standard: Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer need to be banned but won't. They rather sacrifice another MC to get those extra weeks of people buying packs to chase cards that will be in the spotlight.
Look at Pioneer: Same as Standard. Oko really needs a ban. T3feri should go as well.

What they will probably do:
Legacy: Nothing
Modern: Ban Mox Opal because its not in packs and perhaps Emry because its a low rare that doesn't hurt sales.
Standard: Ban Veil of Summer and Nissa. You no longer have a 1 mana Cryptic Command to protect Oko and you don't have Nissa to go over the top so easily so other decks can emerge in that space like Azorius Control.
Pioneer: Format is wide open so I don't know but for he first wave I expect something like: Ban TC, DTT, Oath of Nissa and Shaeeli.

If they do ban Oko and OUAT in Standard I am convinced they will sacrifice yet again Modern's health for financial gains. This is why yesterday I started getting out of Modern. The moment people realize Modern will only decline from now one and Pioneer will eat up its share will be the moment prices will start to crash. You can already see on MTGO Modern staples are going down because people are making the transition and paper will soon follow around January/February when the first GP's are played and people see what a fun format it is.

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Post by Lord Seth » 1 year ago

spawnofhastur wrote:
1 year ago
If Wizards of the Coast was a Japanese company, the people responsible for the last year of Magic would permanently be kicked upstairs and forced to wear a duncecap whenever they went to work.
The state of Yu-Gi-Oh would appear to disprove that idea.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Legacy does not need a W6 ban.
The online meta has warped a little about w6, but there are so many decks that ignore him. The bar for bans is high in Legacy, W6 is great, sure, it has forced elves into running 20/20s as a plan B, it has reduced the prevalence of some decks like Elves, and incentivised decks that ignore it. Paper Legacy, where people lose lots of money potentially if a deck gets banned, is not infested with Canadian Threshold/RUG delver with W6 or 4 colour goodstuff with W6. In paper people don't swap decks often, they play one of a couple of decks and that is it. A few grumble about W6/Tef3/Narset/Karn changing the format, fairly enough, but really I have not heard people after banning w6- not even D n T players. people might lament its printing- just as many lament Thespian's stage, for example, but they don't want it banned.

For Modern, If there are bans then Opal and Urza are in the firing line, and I could always see a card like Emry go if they are making other big bans.I don't really know if they will on this. These are uncertain times.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

I was doing some reading about Oko and I'm finding out some interesting things I didn't realize initially. He is more powerful than I thought. The funniest thing I read was Emrakul becoming an elk.

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Post by Wraithpk » 1 year ago

Ben Stark kinda nailed it. Planeswalkers are generally good against control, and vulnerable to being attacked. The cheaper they are, the better against control because you can sneak them under counterspells, but the weaker they are to being attacked because they usually have lower loyalty. Oko comes down on turn 2 and ticks up to 5 or 6 loyalty, so he sneaks under most counters, and is difficult to attack down. He's good against small creature decks because he makes 3/3s, and he's good against big creature decks because he elks their creatures. He's just good against too much.
Modern
ubr Grixis Shadow ubr
uwg Bant Stoneblade uwg
gbr Jund gbr

Pioneer
urIzzet Phoenixur
rMono-Red Aggror
uwAzorius Controluw

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bg Meren of Clan Nel Toth bg

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
I was doing some reading about Oko and I'm finding out some interesting things I didn't realize initially. He is more powerful than I thought. The funniest thing I read was Emrakul becoming an elk.
Oh, you read that too? Emrakul, the Promised Elk or was it Elk, the Promised End? Here's some of the things I've turned to Elk so far - Ensnaring Bridge, Wurmcoil Engine, and Oblivion Stone. :)

If we're talking about Pioneer and Standard that Oko, Thief of Crowns is too strong, then I'm behind you. As for Modern, the card is very strong, but appropriate for the Modern power level and does not require a ban in my honest opinion.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

Oko just belongs on the increasingly longer list of cards that aren't overpowered, but just very unfun to play against. It joins the ranks of Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, Karn the Great Creator, and Teferi Time Raveler, I wouldn't be able to objectively argue those cards for a ban, but I'd be glad if they somehow left the format.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

I think it's hilarious that WOTC continues to break formats into pieces with new cards all the time, but holds their breath for YEARS on innocuous and mediocre crap like Stoneforge Mystic. If they decide to care about Modern again, I wonder if they'll ever toss us Twin back; a deck considerably weaker than Urza variants and would be eaten alive by Sultai Oko and Shadow decks. Whatevs. WOTC gonna do what WOTC wanna do.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

wotc needs to make new + powerful cards to keep the excitement going, or things will go stale.
Simic has been underpowerd for a long time in modern, so Oko fills a role to boost that color combination.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
wotc needs to make new + powerful cards to keep the excitement going, or things will go stale.
Simic has been underpowerd for a long time in modern, so Oko fills a role to boost that color combination.
We know cards are designed with Standard in mind, and maybe a small, loose thought towards Modern (lol Creeping Chill). Either way Oko is a spectacular failure all around because Cheon and Del Torro admitted on stream that the PD team did not anticipate players using Oko defensively by Elk-ing their opponent's stuff. Because if they had, they would have likely made it a - ability instead of + or given Oko WAAYYY less loyalty. Elking your opponent's creature when that Elk can't kill Oko on its own is a MASSIVELY powerful thing to do.

Whether or not Oko is OK in Modern (lol we have no meaningful data ever, and no meaningful events until WELL into next year), we get to slog through him and Urza indefinitely. And with the fairly terrible gameplay experiences both of these (as well as most top decks) provide, combined with the hot new spice of Pioneer, it's no wonder no one cares about Modern these days.

But I just can't stand the hypocritical irony of WOTC employees having the audacity to say such stupid things about banned cards when they break formats over and over and over and over with bad design mistakes.

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Post by MashedPotato » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
But I just can't stand the hypocritical irony of WOTC employees having the audacity to say such stupid things about banned cards when they break formats over and over and over and over with bad design mistakes.
I agree with that entirely. Lets introduce an overpowered card (that already slots into the colour with the most ramp) forget to playtest correctly and provide no way to combat it (in the standard it releases in.

It's not as if Modern does not have a way to counter Oko, but not on Turn 2. I agree with you also on the whole currently banned cards, then releases cards that break it even more. The curve on the latest Planeswalkers is silly, imagine if JTMS or Big Teferi came out with one less mana to cast and how broken that would make them with the same loyalty they currently have.

I am just glad my LGS has people that play their favourite decks or has something that they don't normally use (like myself with Esper as main and Prowess as second) and there is a level of self policing
There is always a greater power

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

I personally think that the new powerful cards are Wizards' attempt at changing formats like Legacy and Modern (Pauper and Vintage too). Maybe they went too far, but Legacy does get boring if it always is 1 mana spell vs. Chalice of the Void and Modern can get stale if it's just Tron/Jund/Burn/"random deck that got banned."

I was actually thinking about it quite a bit and this is the conclusion I've come to. If it was just a few mistakes, then yes, they could be mistakes. But it seems to be pushing an agenda. I don't think they're stupid. I'm not sure if it means that Wizards is trying to make a format that they believe they can make money off of more than Modern. Modern does pretty well for them, even if the variance is at an all time high.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Highly doubt it, Foodchains, at least about Legacy. Legacy does not make them money. I am sure they dont think about it at all.
Modern? Not so sure. But if you do want to change Modern, you dont print a 3 cmc walker, but a powerful synergy a-la combo. You can also change it with a weird unban.
My theory is that they want to make MTG's difference than the other TCG games out there, even more visible: Walkers. They really need to lure people back to mtg from HS, especially now that HS is at a low point.
No, I agree that is yet another agenda of theirs - pushing Planeswalkers. The original RR Tibalt was a joke. They wanted to prove that they can make low cost Planeswalkers insane and it definitely worked. But I think that whatever they did, they pushed it too much - Teferi, Time Raveler, Narset, Parter of Veils, Wrenn and Six, Karn, the Great Creator, and now Oko, Thief of Crowns. These are all some seriously pushed walkers. They are also very fun for the person resolving them and HELL for the opponents. So, they can be very polarizing. We thought Jace, the Mind Sculptor was always going to be the best planeswalker. Well, we were dead wrong.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Yes, I agree that one. All of those were criminally overpowered. Saheeli Rai also, but only for the synergy of Felidar, the a-la Twin combo, that was a serious mistake and it's haunted Standard and now haunting Pioneer as well.
I also think Royal Scions is a little bit underrated, it's pushed as well.
I also think that Royal Scions is pushed. It was one of the cards I was considering picking up for selling after a Post Oko Standard world.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Yes, I agree that one. All of those were criminally overpowered. Saheeli Rai also, but only for the synergy of Felidar, the a-la Twin combo, that was a serious mistake and it's haunted Standard and now haunting Pioneer as well.
I also think Royal Scions is a little bit underrated, it's pushed as well.
I also think that Royal Scions is pushed. It was one of the cards I was considering picking up for selling after a Post Oko Standard world.
I have a few borderless copies. It's nuts in GDS. Might not be terrible in TiTi Blue Moon either, but I'm kind of over losing to all the good decks with trash piles.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Yes, I agree that one. All of those were criminally overpowered. Saheeli Rai also, but only for the synergy of Felidar, the a-la Twin combo, that was a serious mistake and it's haunted Standard and now haunting Pioneer as well.
I also think Royal Scions is a little bit underrated, it's pushed as well.
I also think that Royal Scions is pushed. It was one of the cards I was considering picking up for selling after a Post Oko Standard world.
I have a few borderless copies. It's nuts in GDS. Might not be terrible in TiTi Blue Moon either, but I'm kind of over losing to all the good decks with trash piles.
I've seen it be insane in GDS but I can see i being okay in TiTi decks as well but I don't know that deck well enough to say for sure

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

motleyslayer wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago

I also think that Royal Scions is pushed. It was one of the cards I was considering picking up for selling after a Post Oko Standard world.
I have a few borderless copies. It's nuts in GDS. Might not be terrible in TiTi Blue Moon either, but I'm kind of over losing to all the good decks with trash piles.
I've seen it be insane in GDS but I can see i being okay in TiTi decks as well but I don't know that deck well enough to say for sure
The Looting ability is helpful and the ultimate is not irrelevant. It's like a 3 mana Ral, Izzet Viceroy, but trades the removal for randomly making an attacker better. Snap or Peezy being a 4/1, First Strike Trample isn't terrible either. Just a shame that the deck is still otherwise pretty awful.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
motleyslayer wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago

I have a few borderless copies. It's nuts in GDS. Might not be terrible in TiTi Blue Moon either, but I'm kind of over losing to all the good decks with trash piles.
I've seen it be insane in GDS but I can see i being okay in TiTi decks as well but I don't know that deck well enough to say for sure
The Looting ability is helpful and the ultimate is not irrelevant. It's like a 3 mana Ral, Izzet Viceroy, but trades the removal for randomly making an attacker better. Snap or Peezy being a 4/1, First Strike Trample isn't terrible either. Just a shame that the deck is still otherwise pretty awful.
I have a few buddies who have been on the breach version of blue moon since maybe 2016 (one of them played twin before so knew the shell well). They had pretty good success early on with the deck, I'm not entirely sure of the reasons behind it anymore. One buddy doesn't play as often anymore but did top 8 an mcq in August and the other one has kind of fallen off a lot but deck seems weaker now than it did

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

motleyslayer wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
motleyslayer wrote:
1 year ago


I've seen it be insane in GDS but I can see i being okay in TiTi decks as well but I don't know that deck well enough to say for sure
The Looting ability is helpful and the ultimate is not irrelevant. It's like a 3 mana Ral, Izzet Viceroy, but trades the removal for randomly making an attacker better. Snap or Peezy being a 4/1, First Strike Trample isn't terrible either. Just a shame that the deck is still otherwise pretty awful.
I have a few buddies who have been on the breach version of blue moon since maybe 2016 (one of them played twin before so knew the shell well). They had pretty good success early on with the deck, I'm not entirely sure of the reasons behind it anymore. One buddy doesn't play as often anymore but did top 8 an mcq in August and the other one has kind of fallen off a lot but deck seems weaker now than it did
I loved the Breach version until twice in one night I lost after successfully Breaching an Emrakul. Haven't played it since. Too many people have too many permanents, especially in Whirza these days, where they can leave a thopter as a blocker too.

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 1 year ago

GDS is strong right now, not "awful". I don't get why we should always exaggerate.

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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
motleyslayer wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago

I have a few borderless copies. It's nuts in GDS. Might not be terrible in TiTi Blue Moon either, but I'm kind of over losing to all the good decks with trash piles.
I've seen it be insane in GDS but I can see i being okay in TiTi decks as well but I don't know that deck well enough to say for sure
The Looting ability is helpful and the ultimate is not irrelevant. It's like a 3 mana Ral, Izzet Viceroy, but trades the removal for randomly making an attacker better. Snap or Peezy being a 4/1, First Strike Trample isn't terrible either. Just a shame that the deck is still otherwise pretty awful.
GDS is the deck that won the only big tournament with Simic Urza available, namely SCG Atlanta Open. Yada yada, SCG big FNM, but still it is the only deck that has won a big tournament. It also consistently appears in 5-0 leagues, in several SCG IQs, 6-0ed the latest MTGO Challenge, and had several showings in the Modern Regionals.

Whatever you say, the deck puts consistent results. If a deck that is consistent AND can win is awful then I don't know what is good any more (and this coming from someone who thought, and to some extent still thinks, that GDS was never good, but can't argue with data).
Counter, draw a card.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

It's just one of those "welcome to the internet, people are weird" type things.

I don't really experience it in other "nerdy games" or whatever and I'm of course generalising here, but I've never met so many people who only ever talk %$#% about other cards and strategies. Like somebody calling Grixis Death Shadow an awful deck.
Somebody can make the most insane play that you have 0% chance against and you get completely annihilated, but they will still go "well.. if I had X, Y or Z then you would be dead"
I don't get that attitude and it's driving me %$#% insane. The best compliment anybody can give about a card or strategy is "seems good"
There's just an insane amount of "I'm %$#% better than you!!!" and "It's not enough that I win, I have to destroy every part of you" mentality. I don't know why, but I just experience A LOT of people who act like that, at fnm and on forums.
People want to assert dominance constantly and save their own asses by not making any predictions that may end up wrong.

If somebody just got dominated by a deck that is consistently putting up really good results at various tournaments, then just take the loss and don't make excuses like a kid. It's a game, you win some, you lose some. Just do what you can to have fun.

Sorry for my rant, I'm just really %$#% tired of the mentality a lot of players have. It's like, no matter how serious you take it or whatever, it's still just some pieces of cardboard with dragons and faeries on them that you're playing against some other person. Just have some %$#% fun and stop whining.

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