[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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frederico
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Post by frederico » 1 year ago

No need to be so dramatic, this is just another format. There's no reason modern can't still be popular notwithstanding, especially considering 1) they have promised continued support and 2) modern has a long-term, established playerbase.
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
I'm not sure what this means for MTG, all I can say is I feel like they are throwing in the towel on the format and giving up on trying to balance it. They are reinventing it with this arbitrary starting point, but in 10 years Pioneer will suffer from the same problems that affect Modern now.
This is probably true as well, but given a long enough time line, a large enough card pool, perhaps its just the nature of the beast and a non-rotational format must eventually collapse?

Apparently this thread is the joke of the Modern online world, but from my perspective its hard to say that Modern has been a healthy format for nearly 2 years, its been one problem after another, and instead of just gutting it and cleaning house, they say 'well if people like it, they can keep it' and then everyone else who wants something different, something closer to Guilds of Ravnica/Dom Standard?

Well, we have Pioneer.

I do believe, its a net negative for Modern.
Yes I am drawing the same conclusions as well about non rotating formats. They claim want a format that you can play after standard rotates. Well how long until that is no longer true about Pioneer? Is it even really true now? Current standard players would need a TON of cards to be competitive, where as Modern players likely have most if not all of whatever the format staples are in Pioneer.

Pioneer isn't a format that will be immediately to open standard players, it's obviously a format for Modern weary players...
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

frederico wrote:
1 year ago
No need to be so dramatic, this is just another format. There's no reason modern can't still be popular notwithstanding, especially considering 1) they have promised continued support and 2) modern has a long-term, established playerbase.
Until they do what they did with Legacy and drop GP support and pretty much ignore B&Rs one way or another, unless stupidly egregious. If players gravitate to Pioneer, it means fewer stores will host Modern FNMs.

It could all be a bunch of nothing, but as someone with enough investment in the format to buy a brand new car, it's at least a little bit worrying. My playsets of foil fetches (Tarn, Delta, Strand, and Mire) also sting with the seemingly needless removal.

But hey, on the bright side, maybe this leads to a bunch of unbans in Modern, because they don't care about this format anymore? Who knows. Maybe they let us have all our toys back, since they can point people at the other format if they want to avoid a broken mess.

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Post by Depian » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
I'm not sure what this means for MTG, all I can say is I feel like they are throwing in the towel on the format and giving up on trying to balance it. They are reinventing it with this arbitrary starting point, but in 10 years Pioneer will suffer from the same problems that affect Modern now.
This is probably true as well, but given a long enough time line, a large enough card pool, perhaps its just the nature of the beast and a non-rotational format must eventually collapse?

Apparently this thread is the joke of the Modern online world, but from my perspective its hard to say that Modern has been a healthy format for nearly 2 years, its been one problem after another, and instead of just gutting it and cleaning house, they say 'well if people like it, they can keep it' and then everyone else who wants something different, something closer to Guilds of Ravnica/Dom Standard?

Well, we have Pioneer.

I do believe, its a net negative for Modern.
Yes I am drawing the same conclusions as well about non rotating formats. They claim want a format that you can play after standard rotates. Well how long until that is no longer true about Pioneer? Is it even really true now? Current standard players would need a TON of cards to be competitive, where as Modern players likely have most if not all of whatever the format staples are in Pioneer.

Pioneer isn't a format that will be immediately to open standard players, it's obviously a format for Modern weary players...
Agree, it's obviously targeted at Modern players, players that didn't want to cope with Standard in the past have either left the game or moved into another format (most likely Modern), most recent Standard players are missing a lot of sets to catch up (and it will be more difficult as prices reflect utility in the new format)

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Post by Arkmer » 1 year ago

For those who use the gatherer, I typed up all the set names with the gatherer's search formatting in mind. The actual input only takes 111 characters total, so you'll have to add sets in several batches, but if you copy/paste sections from below you'll get there. Don't forget to change the setting to "OR". This is all the rares and mythics.
The copy/paste stuff
Show
"return to ravnica" "gatecrash" "dragon's maze" "magic 2014 core set" "theros" "born of the gods" "journey to nyx" "magic 2015 core set" "khans of tarkir" "fate reforged" "dragons of tarkir" "magic origins" "battle for zendikar" "oath of the gatewatch" "shadows over innistrad" "eldritch moon" "kaladesh" "aether revolt" "amonkhet" "hour of devestation" "ixalan" "rivals of ixalan" "dominaria" "core set 2019" "guilds of ravnica" "ravnica alligiance" "war of the spark" "core set 2020" "throne of eldraine"

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
Perhaps Modern needs a total revamp. People are always trying to find the next level goldfish deck either being it Jeskai Ascendancy, Goryo, Puresteel Paladin, Infect, Bushwacker Zoo, Electrodominance/As Foretold, Affinity, Vengevine dredge. All these decks have a cultfollowing and all violate the turn 4 rule in some way. Maybe it is time to accept Modern will never be the interactive turn 4 game it once was. Maybe we should move on to a new format.
LOL. I said this a few days ago. Modern is only going downhill from here. They realize its unsalvageable and are starting a new format which is logical. At some point they will take Modern off proplay again and replace it with Pioneer. For every ban every new set adds 5 problems. You just can't keep up with that. In hindsight it would have been better if Modern Horizons never got printed. It only accelerated the powercreep funnel and in the long term the format's demise.

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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

"Modern is dead", "modern can never be fixed", "frontier will be exactly like modern, horrible", "everything sucks". It makes you wonder how some people keep playing the damn game. They literally stated that THERE WILL BE A DISCUSSION ON THURSDAY about the new format where they will answer any questions. Can't we just keep a bit calm for a bit and not bring out the BOOK OF DOOM for modern/standard/magic-in-general, depending on what is the flavor of the week?

There hasn't been any constructive discussion in this thread in literally WEEKS. Just "I told you so" comments, bashing comments, doom foretold comments etc. Compare this thread with the rest of the modern subforum and you will see that soem people in this forum, for whatever reason, don't want to engage with the format/decks. They just want to whine.
Counter, draw a card.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

motleyslayer wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
I personally think that if a new post Modern format is given its head we might see a loosening of the ban list to include Chrome Mox type cards. Trouble is I can't see that happening any time soon in paper. Modern is a cash cow, they won't mess with it and introduce competition now.
I personally don't wanna see more mox like this in the format, I can't see what good chrome mox adds to the format
Well I called that one wrong. Surprised at Pioneer now, for sure.
I do think they will take the attitude towards Modern of managing it for the players that play it, as they do with Legacy, where busted Brainstorm will never be touched. Thus if there were enough people playing Modern who want to play with acceleration it then happens. Personally I don't have an opinion on what should happen regarding Opal, Chrome Mox et al. Some people like fast mana acceleration, some don't.
Without the new format I would have given Opal 12-24 months. With it around I think the chances of a ban decrease. It could be that WOTC simply spend less effort on Modern all round and unless huge numbers complain Modern's list doesn't change as often.

One thing is for sure, I don't want to play "Creatures The gathering" or "Planeswalkers the gathering" or even "Energy the gathering", so I am hoping Modern thrives. I am not sure it will- Legacy has devotees because it is fundamentally a fantastic format, albeit an inaccessible one to many. Modern is more match up lottery, and is often two ships passing in the night, one of which is on fire, and it is this that worries me. Modern is a more frustrating format for many as it is harder to interact with the broken stuff as there is inferior selection to Legacy to get answers, and fewer good answer cards. I like to play off the wall decks in Modern, but they tend to be decks that a lot of decks can't interact with whilst others just trash. That is frustrating for many, before we even get to the latest t4 breaking deck to turn up. So I am more worried than I was, because a few hours ago I was not worried at all..............

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
One thing is for sure, I don't want to play "Creatures The gathering" or "Planeswalkers the gathering" or even "Energy the gathering", so I am hoping Modern thrives.
As a fan of Bant, more so because Green has been getting way too much love for years, I dug out what I have and looked over what I would want.

Creature/Walker/Energy (though I dont really care to mess with that) is where I'm going in Pioneer for sure. The most recent Walkers are simply too good.

Anyway, hopefully we get a forum here for the format, I'll leave you all to your Modern discussions. :)
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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
This is really getting out of hand. It is not new though. Lot's of people are bashing the format for weeks now. I really hope the moderators look into that, because any civilized discussion, such as a post I put a lot of effort into about pod, get buried with "unban twin" or "Modern sucks" or "too bad modern they have decided to abandon modern" comments.

They are just trying out a new thing. We should wait.
Suggesting the mods to take action because you're not getting the engagement you believe your post deserves is...narcissistic. Some big news got released that people would rather discuss over your post. That's all.

Also not sure why you claimed that 'unban twin' posts were partially responsible for burying it, especially when there were no 'unban twin' posts made since your pod post.

Edit:

WoTC Abandoning Modern may be a very dramatic hot take, but the impact of the announcement is relatively clear.

Pioneer is going to be a huge barrier in attracting new players into Modern. The cost for one in going from Standard → Pioneer VS Standard → Modern is much more palatable.

It's hardly an issue about players leaving Modern for Pioneer. Stagnating growth of player base is an issue that pioneer creates for Modern.

Enfranchised Modern players who enjoy a format with a higher power level will likely stay unless official support for Modern dramatically fades OR if Modern somehow becomes another %$#% in terms of gameplay experience.
Last edited by True-Name Nemesis 1 year ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Ooof.....4 Pioneer GP's in the first 3 months is bad news though...

If you want to know how modern will go just look at legacy. We've already proven there isn't enough demand for eternal formats to properly support the EXISTING ones in the large scale tourneys. Adding yet another format to a scene that already has more than it can support means that the only practical solution is to support whatever is currently trending, and every other non trending format will have to just live with even less market share than they already had.

Good luck changing your non trending format to a popular by cutting the amount of tourneys that use it in half or quarters. Modern's future (in paper) seems all too clear to me. MTGO will continue to carry the torch so to speak, just because of the raw accessibility of having 24/7 access to ranked matches in any format. Paper Modern on the other hand, just rec'd it's pink slip.
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Post by pierreb » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
If you want to know how modern will go just look at legacy. We've already proven there isn't enough demand for eternal formats to properly support the EXISTING ones in the large scale tourneys.
As long as we ignore SCG running modern constantly or GP featuring modern.... (4 modern GP in 2020 announced so far.)

Then again, people saying things to prop up their own internal narrative is par for the course here. No need for reality anymore.

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Post by Arkmer » 1 year ago

That is a ton of Pioneer right away! I'm willing to bet the ban list explodes during each of those. Get your broken plays in now!

Unfortunately I do see it taking some light from Modern, the GP schedule really solidifies the argument that it will. I'm already seeing local stores putting up events for the format. My local group is already tossing around ideas. New format, new fun; doesn't mean it will last, doesn't mean it won't. I agree with those who have said we should wait. I hope Modern survives, it's death (or near to it) would impact far more players than all the bans we've seen in Modern's history.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

Pioneer is not a format to kill modern, just like modern did not kill legacy. It's not just targeted at ex-modern players, it's also targeted at standard players, it is a format for anyone who wants to play it. I'll try Pioneer but I'll keep playing modern. This sounds like it could be fun.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

I think that modern as a format will certainly be fine. There are people who have way too much invested in the format to just give it up for something new. I myself am keeping myself open to see what it is like before establishing an opinion on Pioneer but I think it's a great idea

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
"Modern is dead", "modern can never be fixed", "frontier will be exactly like modern, horrible", "everything sucks". It makes you wonder how some people keep playing the damn game. They literally stated that THERE WILL BE A DISCUSSION ON THURSDAY about the new format where they will answer any questions. Can't we just keep a bit calm for a bit and not bring out the BOOK OF DOOM for modern/standard/magic-in-general, depending on what is the flavor of the week?

There hasn't been any constructive discussion in this thread in literally WEEKS. Just "I told you so" comments, bashing comments, doom foretold comments etc. Compare this thread with the rest of the modern subforum and you will see that soem people in this forum, for whatever reason, don't want to engage with the format/decks. They just want to whine.
Nailed it

I think Pioneer is interesting, I got back into magic around Aether Revolt so I have a lot of cards from around that time that I'm happy I can use again.
But I sure as %$#% ain't quitting a format where I can use Tron lands :) Pioneer just means I can also play "standard" with more powerful cards aka more Magic for me :)

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Post by Legend » 1 year ago

I can't wait for the State of Pioneer thread.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

motleyslayer wrote:
1 year ago
I think that modern as a format will certainly be fine. There are people who have way too much invested in the format to just give it up for something new. I myself am keeping myself open to see what it is like before establishing an opinion on Pioneer but I think it's a great idea
While I want to believe this optimistically, I'm very wary of the format going forward based on their complete abandonment of Legacy. If Pioneer does pick up traction, support for Modern will likely dwindle month by month.
Last edited by cfusionpm 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

For the past 3 years my enjoyment in Modern has been in free fall due to various reasons. Winter Eldrazi, FL Spring, Hogaak Summer, now we are entering Urza Winter..... I have taken forced breaks from Modern way more than I would have liked during these times due to lack of game balance. I have therefore bashed the format a lot lately and moved back to Legacy at the start of this year after not playing it for 4 years and I am quite enjoying it despite of Reanimator creating a lot of non-games. At least I know the game is over by turn 1 within 10 seconds rather than watching my opponent playing solitaire for 20 minutes before telling me I lost or not.

I am very happy with the announcement of Pioneer. I have accepted that Modern has moved into a direction I don't like and I will slowly sell my cards and buy into Pioneer if it really becomes a thing. Modern has tilted me too many times and I am worn out by it. Its not the interactive turn 4 format any more they once advertised. I will stop bashing Modern and put my energy in developing decks for Pioneer instead.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
For the past 3 years my enjoyment in Modern has been in free fall due to various reasons. Winter Eldrazi, FL Spring, Hogaak Summer, now we are entering Urza Winter..... I have taken forced breaks from Modern way more than I would have liked during these times due to lack of game balance. I have therefore bashed the format a lot lately and moved back to Legacy at the start of this year after not playing it for 4 years and I am quite enjoying it despite of Reanimator creating a lot of non-games. At least I know the game is over by turn 1 within 10 seconds rather than watching my opponent playing solitaire for 20 minutes before telling me I lost or not.

I am very happy with the announcement of Pioneer. I have accepted that Modern has moved into a direction I don't like and I will slowly sell my cards and buy into Pioneer if it really becomes a thing. Modern has tilted me too many times and I am worn out by it. Its not the interactive turn 4 format any more they once advertised. I will stop bashing Modern and put my energy in developing decks for Pioneer instead.
This guy's post pretty much sums up the way a huge chunk of people feel about modern. No, I wont be selling my cards but yes I definitely am feeling pulled away from modern. I have also taken forced breaks from the format due to balance and the announcement of a new format right at the end of a particularly ugly few years for Modern is basically the last straw for a lot of people.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Side note: in addition to essentially shoving out many of the jaded Modern players on the fence about whether or not to stay in the format, WOTC have also basically confirmed they will never reprint fetchlands in a Standard set for the forseeable future.

Given that Khans fetches are banned, and they likely won't want to reprint new cards that immediately and preemptively become banned, the only other option (if they ever see another reprint) is through expensive supplemental products. So I guess those $50-90 fetchlands stay that way indefinitely.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

They can easily just print and ban in Standard any fetches, or, they can just reprint them in a 'Masters' set. They instantly sell packs, regardless of the rest of the set as you are cracking a $20 every time you open one.

Regardless, there's a lot of moaning (counter moaning?) about death of Modern. Its not about the 'death of Modern'. Legacy still exists, heck, VINTAGE still exists.

This is the reboot that a lot of people have been looking for, and the excitement on Twitter (I've seen at least 30 powerful decks being brewed) is exciting.

Will we eventually find something broken? Yes.
Will Modern continue to exist? Yes.
Will Modern take a hit because some people move on from Modern? Perhaps.

Are there tron lands in Pioneer? HHHHHHELL no. :p
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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Are there tron lands in Pioneer? HHHHHHELL no. :p
Which is exactly why I'll still be playing modern :)

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Post by Arkmer » 1 year ago

I'll be interested to see what they print in support of Pioneer going forward. Fatal Push is weak without fetches, no path, no Bolt. I agree with what was said earlier that it's modern level threats with standard level removal. There are many fewer sweepers of nearly all variety.

Some of the things they throw at Pioneer will likely fill roles for Modern along the way.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Are there tron lands in Pioneer? HHHHHHELL no. :p
Which is exactly why I'll still be playing modern :)
And that's fine. Nothing can appeal to everyone. Never playing Tron or ETron again is for me, how most seem to feel about Twin, or Storm, or KCI.
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