[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

Ya i agree with the standard and pauper bans you mentioned, I think those are the easy ones that most people will agree with, but i am mostly talking about modern. The most common modern potential bans I've heard are 1) urza, 2) mox opal, 3) astrolabe.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Played my first paper FNM in like 2 months yesterday with nearly a card-for-card copy of the Esper Goryo deck from last week. Wow Urza is absolutely busted. Faced it multiple times and steamrolled me at every opportunity, including losing a game 3 on the play in which I had turn 1 discard, turn 2 Stony Silence, turn 3 Kambal, Consul of Allocation, and an actively animated Ghost Dad by turn 4. None of this mattered between Sai and Emry and Urza and Saheeli and Construct tokens and Thopter tokens and Servo tokens and Abrupt Decay to destroy Kambal and T3feri to bounce Stony and cut off my answers on his turn. If you aren't playing this deck, in whatever configuration (all I saw were the Ascendancy builds), you are just doing it wrong. Even if/when they do ban this deck, I don't know how to poke a hole in it. Remove one piece and it just plays all the other pieces, which are all still very strong and synergystic. This deck is nuts. I wish I could justify buying in and playing it without the overlooming fear of losing it.

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Yeah, difficult hating it out. There is no good 80% hatecard like example plague engineer versus tribals. So many answers and different possibility playing around

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Urza is completely busted and I firmly believe at least 2 pieces need to be banned. The Jeskai build is 3 combodecks combined to make 1 super combodeck. Emry, Urza, Jeskai Ascendancy, Paradoxical Outcome and the several token producers.

Maybe it sounds weird but I would't also mind a Veil of Summer ban. One of the main objectives of the Faithless Loothing ban was to bring back the focus of the game to the battlefield instead of the graveyard and the main objective of the Stoneforge unban was to increase incentives to play a more fair and grindy game. I feel both objectives haven't been reached yet.

The main focus is now the stack. There are so many 'when you cast'/'when comes into play' triggers or things that whenever they hit the battlefield immediately take over the game and are hard to answer or 'must answers or you die' cards like Emry and Urza. Reactive cards are still pretty bad compared to threats. Still the best thing you can do in Modern is ignore your opponent and race to the finish asap. Hence why goldfish decks like Amulet Titan, Urza, Tron, Devoted Druid, Storm, Dredge and even Burn I count as goldfish deck with very little meaningful decision making and they have a very consistent turn 4 win, are all very well positioned in the meta. Even Allosaurus is starting to make appearances thanks to Once Upon a Time.

A lot of this is also due to Veil of Summer dominating the stack. Interacting/messing with their gameplan was already hard to do because you could only discard or counter the things they play but Veil prevents all that. There is no interaction possible anymore because they get to play Cryptic Command for 1 green.

I still believe Wrenn is a longterm mistake. Jund is almost nowhere to be seen because it folds to any big mana deck/unfair deck and its stellar card only shines in the fair, grindy matchup. It completely hoses those strategies while folding to the unfair decks. And btw, don't get fooled by the lack of Urza decks putting up results on MTGO because the deck is already a pain to play in paper, online its almost impossible.

Perhaps Modern needs a total revamp. People are always trying to find the next level goldfish deck either being it Jeskai Ascendancy, Goryo, Puresteel Paladin, Infect, Bushwacker Zoo, Electrodominance/As Foretold, Affinity, Vengevine dredge. All these decks have a cultfollowing and all violate the turn 4 rule in some way. Maybe it is time to accept Modern will never be the interactive turn 4 game it once was. Maybe we should move on to a new format.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

You not understanding how the deck works, what hurts it and ignoring the people that have told you how to hate it out don't make the deck broken or in need of a ban, they make you unwilling to adapt.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
You not understanding how the deck works, what hurts it and ignoring the people that have told you how to hate it out don't make the deck broken or in need of a ban, they make you unwilling to adapt.
How do you hate out a deck that requires multiple, different, narrow answers, that do not overlap? And that if any one of the layers of attack are left unchecked, they can easily win on their own?

Honestly, this sounds like the people who said "just adapt" during Eldrazi Winter and "just play GY hate" the last 8 months.

Never mind that I literally gave an example of a game in which I sided in 8 cards, drew and cast two of them on curve, in addition to turn 1 disruption with providing a clock, and still got steamrolled by thopters, servos, and constructs.

As pointed out, the only way to beat this deck is to ignore it and race it. Woo hoo. What a great and healthy addition to the format.

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Discard, stony, kambal was his first 3 turns.... All of them are hatecards like you want tsoulis, but it doesn't helped. So why you repeat it again to him? I think he is the wrong one, because he really tryed. We can tell each other some months again the adapt story, but we all knew what will happen at the end

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Honestly, this sounds like the people who said "just adapt" during Eldrazi Winter and "just play GY hate" the last 8 months.
Eldrazi was much tougher to hate out (while still winning against anything else), but I think your point stands. As someone who has played a lot of Urza, Lord High Artificer decks in the past 3 months, the decks are tough to hate out. There are many angles they can come from, including the angle of winning the game on the spot (via infinite Thopters or Nexus of Fate/Mirrodin Beseiged, Emry with over 20 power).

When I play these decks, disruption is fairly solid because it can slow my clock. But with so many cantrips and potential game breaking cards (like Urza, Paradoxical Outcome, Emry, Tezzeret Agent, Oko), it is very easy to get back in the game. Also with Mystical Dispute, Thoughtseize, and Disdainful Stroke, among other potential cards (like Veil of Summer sometimes), it can fight with the best of decks. In my opinion, when I play this deck, I actively want to play against durdly decks. I want opponents to take extra win-cons out of my hands because I just will draw another one (the deck is cantrips and win-cons). I want to be able to somewhat choose what my opponent counters and win off the back of another card. The kinds of decks I don't want to see? Super quick decks that ignore what I'm doing and just present a quick clock are the scariest. This means I have to have the quickest clock of my own. That being said, I don't play the Jeskai Ascendancy versions, so they probably have a different view of interaction and how good it is vs. them.

*On another note, something I thought was funny was a Humans' player telling me that Modern is too crazy right now. He had just come back last week after a hiatus. I had just beaten him with 5 Color Niv, so I doubt that's what he was talking about. I did tell him that Humans is one of the decks that Urza loves to see across from them, so there's that. He did confirm that last week, he had some trouble with them.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
You not understanding how the deck works, what hurts it and ignoring the people that have told you how to hate it out don't make the deck broken or in need of a ban, they make you unwilling to adapt.
How do you hate out a deck that requires multiple, different, narrow answers, that do not overlap? And that if any one of the layers of attack are left unchecked, they can easily win on their own?

Honestly, this sounds like the people who said "just adapt" during Eldrazi Winter and "just play GY hate" the last 8 months.

Never mind that I literally gave an example of a game in which I sided in 8 cards, drew and cast two of them on curve, in addition to turn 1 disruption with providing a clock, and still got steamrolled by thopters, servos, and constructs.

As pointed out, the only way to beat this deck is to ignore it and race it. Woo hoo. What a great and healthy addition to the format.
You're playing against a combo deck that produces tons of tokens and

1st: You expect one discard spell to do the job?
2nd: Stony is useless, period.
3rd: Kambal is workable.
4th: A slow clock.

This is literally you playing the mediocre to bad cards and hoping to win. Would you come here and complain about storm or amulet or titan as well? Or hell UW control? Because such hands will only win you their bad hands, so stop complaining and play the cards that me and others have told you -royal you- are effective against the deck.
Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
Discard, stony, kambal was his first 3 turns.... All of them are hatecards like you want tsoulis, but it doesn't helped. So why you repeat it again to him? I think he is the wrong one, because he really tryed. We can tell each other some months again the adapt story, but we all knew what will happen at the end
That hand would probably not even beat a mediocre storm hand, so yeah, of course it didn't help.

I've been playing the deck for months now, his plan was wrong. All the games I've lost were because they brought effective hate against me, not mediocre to bad ones like Stony.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
That hand would probably not even beat a mediocre storm hand, so yeah, of course it didn't help.

I've been playing the deck for months now, his plan was wrong. All the games I've lost were because they brought effective hate against me, not mediocre to bad ones like Stony.
Your condescension is as palpable as it is arrogant.
For reference, I brought in 2 Kambal, 2 Plague Engineer, 2 Damping Sphere, 1 Stony, 1 Disdainful Stroke. Care to share with the class what these magic bullet "effective hate" cards are?
Main deck I have 3 Path 2 Push, 3 Seize, 3 IoK.

Additionally, Stony bought me at least 4 extra turns while he sat on 3 lands and 2 Moxes in play with an Urza stranded in his hand, which I saw from the Turn 1 discard.

Or are you just going to continue selling us some crap about how this deck is "fine;" just like people did with Eldrazi, just like people did with Phoenix, just like some even did with Hogaak?

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Played my first paper FNM in like 2 months yesterday with nearly a card-for-card copy of the Esper Goryo deck from last week. Wow Urza is absolutely busted. Faced it multiple times and steamrolled me at every opportunity, including losing a game 3 on the play in which I had turn 1 discard, turn 2 Stony Silence, turn 3 Kambal, Consul of Allocation, and an actively animated Ghost Dad by turn 4. None of this mattered between Sai and Emry and Urza and Saheeli and Construct tokens and Thopter tokens and Servo tokens and Abrupt Decay to destroy Kambal and T3feri to bounce Stony and cut off my answers on his turn. If you aren't playing this deck, in whatever configuration (all I saw were the Ascendancy builds), you are just doing it wrong. Even if/when they do ban this deck, I don't know how to poke a hole in it. Remove one piece and it just plays all the other pieces, which are all still very strong and synergystic. This deck is nuts. I wish I could justify buying in and playing it without the overlooming fear of losing it.
hmm, yesterday night I was talking with a Ktgc Tron player on fb. He said he's using trinisphere as another piece to help slow down the Urza deck. I just don't know if it's effective. Well, anyway thanks for posting your experience. Maybe there are vastly different builds of Urza, since some fnm reports I've seen the deck is easy enough to defeat. Pilot skill of the urza deck is also a factor to be considered, maybe the guy you played against practiced plenty?
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
Pilot skill of the urza deck is also a factor to be considered, maybe the guy you played against practiced plenty?
My store is fairly competitive. Lots of the current players have previously been on KCI or Lantern and very familiar with Opal combo/prison decks and know the lines very well. The thing about Urza though, is that there are just so many lines, they're all different, and they all require different answers. On top of all that, I saw Emry on turn 1 once and on turn 2 three times.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Urza somehow feels like the new Affinity. I've seen some lists that have Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas as alternate win con, it's a good environment for him since plenty artifacts come down early. Tezz Aob is the alternate win con of affinity decks in legacy.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
That hand would probably not even beat a mediocre storm hand, so yeah, of course it didn't help.

I've been playing the deck for months now, his plan was wrong. All the games I've lost were because they brought effective hate against me, not mediocre to bad ones like Stony.
Your condescension is as palpable as it is arrogant.
For reference, I brought in 2 Kambal, 2 Plague Engineer, 2 Damping Sphere, 1 Stony, 1 Disdainful Stroke. Care to share with the class what these magic bullet "effective hate" cards are?
Main deck I have 3 Path 2 Push, 3 Seize, 3 IoK.

Additionally, Stony bought me at least 4 extra turns while he sat on 3 lands and 2 Moxes in play with an Urza stranded in his hand, which I saw from the Turn 1 discard.

Or are you just going to continue selling us some crap about how this deck is "fine;" just like people did with Eldrazi, just like people did with Phoenix, just like some even did with Hogaak?
My attitude reflects the attitude of those that keep screaming for unnecessary bans.

Where's your Explosives and/or Needles? Where are your disenchant effects? Don't tell they're narrow, because you're exceedingly wrong, especially in a 3 color deck. Of the 8 cards you sided in, 3 are mediocre to bad and that betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how the deck operates and instead of working it out, you come here and complain. You say stony bought you at least 5 turns and still lost, so where was you clock? Where was your pressure? A 5/5, drain 2 each turn, that can be blocked endlessly isn't pressure.

You keep citing 2 extremely specific and blatant situations of decks needing a ban and you use them as a kind shield to hide behind from. Do you remember the ban-mania of:

1. Suicide Zoo and then Jund Death's Shadow AND THEN Grixis Death's Shadow?
2. Humans?
3. Miracles?
4. Tron-oh so many times?
5. Eldarzi Tron?
6. Amulet?
7. Dredge (way before Chill and after GGT ban)?
8. Valakut?
9. Hell, even Burn/Mono-R prowess?
10. Even Turns?
11. Semblance Anvil, right after the KCI ban?

So spare me with the false equivalencies and stop using 2 extreme cases, because there are way more where the community overreacted and started calling for bans WAY too early. We're barely over a month in a new format and you want emergency action to be taken, just because your specific brand of decks have a bad match-up against a new deck?

It's TOO early to ban something, there's been ONE relatively large event after SFM got unbanned, and the data pointed to Amulet being better. Should we ban something from that as well?

Let the meta adapt and you should with it. If you refuse to, that's a you problem, not the meta's or the format's.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

1) SFM is an irrelevant piece of hyped mediocrity.
2) Urza has been incredibly powerful and robust,in multiple iterations, even before the ELD help and when Hogaak was legal. The Ascendancy versions aren't even susceptible to GY hate or Artifact hate.

Everything else is just you standing on a soap box telling us to "git gud noob."

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
I've been playing the deck for months now, his plan was wrong. All the games I've lost were because they brought effective hate against me, not mediocre to bad ones like Stony.
I play the deck(s) too and I see it differently. Opponents haven't brought in ineffective hate. They've put in cards that do something for cards that don't do anything against me. I literally have a much higher percentage chance of winning if they had not made those changes. Simply put, there is no card that says, "shroud, indestructible, cannot be forced to sacrifice," you cannot lose the game.

After playing Whirza for a short time, I documented here how I won through 4 Bloodbraid Elf, 2 Kologhan's Command, Plague Engineer, Scavenging Ooze X 2, Collector Ouphe, and Ancient Grudge and beat Jund in a game 3. He would have won if he had the quick clock of Tarmogoyf on turn 2 and then did all of that stuff, but I was at 7 life when he had Collector Ouphe and I had nothing (both empty handed). But I drew a redundant Mox Opal, went to 5 life, then drew and played an Urza. The small advantage that he had turned to a big advantage for me over the next 2 turns when he couldn't find the removal for Urza.

Sure, I will say that opponents haven't played perfectly against me, but then I can say that about any Modern deck I play. It hardly ever matters, as long as they are making fairly solid plays. The small percentages are just that, small percentages and rarely come up. This deck reminds me of when I used to play Storm and my opponents would play hate and it was up to me to figure out the puzzle on how to beat them.

*So I will say this in parting - I don't think it's opponents playing or sideboarding miserably, as much as I think the deck is incredibly resilient. On another hand, I think most players have played terribly against the deck Amulet Titan, both with Summer Bloom and now without. People just have no understanding on how to play that deck, so they really don't know how to attack it. You won't believe how many turn 2s I used to see that could have been prevented by the opponent (nowadays, it's more like turn 3s that could have been prevented).
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Post by dogwave » 1 year ago

I had to make an account just to say this:

This thread and the majority of the people posting on it are the laughing stock of a large amount of modern-related discord servers. It might be tough to hear, but the absurd hot takes constantly getting posted on here are screencapped and posted in various discords. You people are delusional and clearly do not like Magic: The Gathering. Constant complaining about things that aren't deserving of complaints, constant absurd hot takes that nobody can take seriously. No matter what WOTC will do, the complaining will never end. Just because your trash midrange pile can't beat actual Modern decks doesn't mean that there should be any changes to modern, Your midrange deck will always suck, get over it.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

dogwave wrote:
1 year ago
I had to make an account just to say this:

This thread and the majority of the people posting on it are the laughing stock of a large amount of modern-related discord servers. It might be tough to hear, but the absurd hot takes constantly getting posted on here are screencapped and posted in various discords. You people are delusional and clearly do not like Magic: The Gathering. Constant complaining about things that aren't deserving of complaints, constant absurd hot takes that nobody can take seriously. No matter what WOTC will do, the complaining will never end. Just because your trash midrange pile can't beat actual Modern decks doesn't mean that there should be any changes to modern, Your midrange deck will always suck, get over it.
You're missing the entire point of much of the complaining. When a deck both promotes interaction and rewards opponents for interacting with it, most of us consider that healthy. When the best course of action against a deck is to simply ignore it and go over/under, many of us consider that bad or unhealthy. That's where Urza is at. Hate is ineffective and those who try to hate the deck out are punished. The ones seeing success are the decks which can count to kill faster by ignoring the opponent. We consider an over-abundance of fast, uninteractive, linear decks as unhealthy.

We're fully aware that bad midrange decks are bad. But we hold on to the glimmering hope that good gameplay will triumph over facing Urza (because games between Tier 2 decks are the absolute best experience you can possibly have in Modern). Some of us want to like... you know... have fun and enjoy our hobby? Instead of chasing an impossible dream of absolutely having to win every single match every single time with the best deck. I've personally been playing this game for many years and have had the best success I could probably get out of all the bad blue/midrange/control decks I choose to play. But I play then because that is what I enjoy and that is what I want to do.

Enjoy your stay here.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
The thing I dislike about some posts in here is that people rarely change their minds. Its like there is no will to do that. Dialogue is supposed to change your mind some times.
Also, some very vocal opinions. For example, I heard that SFM, twin or pod would be garbage. Like, for real, cant some cards just be good?
Also heard that playing fair in modern always is the worst thing one can do.

What I really think is that people sometimes testify their opinions in here, with no much testing or numbers to back it up.

That said, we need to wait to have some numbers before we see about any possible bans. Come monday, something out of nissa, oko and field, or once will be banned. No changes to modern, i suppose. Its not a modern season. Like, we should relax with our predictions.
With some things, I admit that I will never change my mind. But there are many things in Modern that I have indeed changed my mind on.

1. Stoneforge Mystic - A long time ago before 99% of the Modern players can remember, Modern was dominated by fair decks. I felt that Stoneforge Mystic would push those decks toward Stoneforge Mystic or bust. I even was vocal that I was going to prove how busted SfM would be by playing it in Summer Bloom Amulet Titan - a deck that the card does not remotely belong in. Then later on as the meta became way less fair (cough cough ever since redacted was banned pretty much), I've felt that SfM was completely fine and even to the point that it would hardly do anything. Nowadays, I kind of felt like SfM did a bit more than I originally thought it would, but the reality is that SfM presents decks that are teetering close to Tier 1 or a solid Tier 2 deck. They are no more than that right now.

2. Splinter Twin (why did I avoid saying the name above, lol?) - I felt for many years that Twin was too strong, but that Wizards would never ban it. Then I got used to it being a sacred "cow," like the Affinity deck, something that WotC just would NOT ban. I was wrong. When they banned it, the timing was just quite odd and I was upset. Then I was fine with it because it seemed like the meta opened up to certain decks and strategies that would never have a chance before. But within the past year or so, the meta has become too degenerate and I feel that Twin would not add to degeneracy, but take some of that away. It's possible it's like putting your finger in a broken dam by this point, but I don't think it could hurt. So I've flip flopped on Twin a BUNCH of times.

And there are many more. Some cards like Sword of the Meek, I knew were always all right. Even with the busted Urza card, I still think the Combo is Modern appropriate, but perhaps the card Urza is not? Urza is a very strong card. I am not calling for any bans. I just see the Urza deck as a very resilient deck, at least when I play it. I lose more to my own draws (which in itself happens very rarely) more so than any "hate" that my opponents bring to the table.

*A problem I see here is that some people jump on others, thinking that they are requesting a ban. For someone to request a ban, they need to write a bunch of proof showing why something should be banned, then say, "this is not all right, something should get banned." I rarely see these types of posts. When I do, I sort of disregard them unless I am starting to feel the same way (Hogaak for example). I don't see anything wrong with someone noticing the power level of a deck and then proposing that something may be watched by Wizards. This is how we protect our investments. Players that I knew that ran Birthing Pod decks are gone from the game in my local area. Many of the players that ran Splinter Twin are gone from my area. Sure, they have been replaced by other Modern players, but it's always sad when there are fewer Modern players to play with.
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Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
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Post by Lord Seth » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Or are you just going to continue selling us some crap about how this deck is "fine;" just like people did with Eldrazi,
I don't recall anyone saying that about Eldrazi during Eldrazi Winter. Well, I think bocephus (back when he posted on MTG Salvation) might have, but he often seemed to be contrarian for its own sake.
just like people did with Phoenix,
Phoenix was fine.
just like some even did with Hogaak?
Who was claiming that with Hogaak? Maybe some were at first but it didn't take too long for it to be obvious how problematic he actually was.

And contrariwise, I remember when people were screaming about how Humans and EldraziTron were broken and something from those decks needed to go.

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

We should start taking Screenshots maybe. So we can ask them if some people are really surprised after a ban in urza style decks. And then dogwave can ask same in his discord channels. Dogwave, it's not because of mtg Nexus, bans happen because of some problems in modern and this problems has nothing to do with people here. Was looting, eldrazi, Kci, hoogak, bridge laughable? It wasn't our fault

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Post by Legend » 1 year ago

I prefer Pod, Twin, and DRS unban rather than more bans.
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

dogwave wrote:
1 year ago
I had to make an account just to say this:

This thread and the majority of the people posting on it are the laughing stock of a large amount of modern-related discord servers. It might be tough to hear, but the absurd hot takes constantly getting posted on here are screencapped and posted in various discords. You people are delusional and clearly do not like Magic: The Gathering. Constant complaining about things that aren't deserving of complaints, constant absurd hot takes that nobody can take seriously. No matter what WOTC will do, the complaining will never end. Just because your trash midrange pile can't beat actual Modern decks doesn't mean that there should be any changes to modern, Your midrange deck will always suck, get over it.
Exactly which servers are you using? I would like to read your forum and get some perspective. Thank you.

Legend
Lord of Ravnica
Posts: 553
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Post by Legend » 1 year ago

dogwave wrote:
1 year ago
This thread and the majority of the people posting on it are the laughing stock of a large amount of modern-related discord servers.
Plot twist: They're populated with the same people.
Cube of Legend: The worst cube ever.

Mtgthewary
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Yes, lol... I am in several discords like all of us

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