[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

metalmusic_4
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
Question about the new site: do we have the same moderators as before or do we even have moderators right now? The small arguement a few posts up just made me wonder.
It would be good to know going forward if users are going to be grilled and harassed for sharing experiences. :hmm:
I don't intend to report anyone, I just didn't know.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

not sure if people have seen this. Saw it yesterday, but was not able to share because my internet broke down.

Was Banning Bridge From Below In Modern The Right Call?

http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/3 ... -Call.html

they talked about faithless looting as well. :)
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Post by Misguided1 » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
BloodyRabbit wrote:
1 year ago
But I already learned that arguing with you is like throwing my head against a brick.
Seems like you just have a bone to pick with me at every opportunity. I'm sorry you feel this way. If you have an issue with me, you can either address it privately, or simply ignore me. No need to drag needless MTGS drama over here too. All I wanted to do was share my experiences and the experiences of those at my store.
Talking about the format diversity AGAIN while we were discussing something totally unrelated. My god.
I tried to bring things back to the main subject of what this thread is supposed to be about, while addressing the deck in question.
I mean, I've found myself agreeing with quite a few of your posts, being a twin "apologist" or whatever myself, but tbh you do come across pretty aggressively in a lot of your posts/statements. After awhile it just comes across like a long-winded temper tantrum. I'm not trying to sling dirt or anything, just wanted to let you know that while it may seem that a lot of people "have issue with you", it seems self-brought sometimes due to your "tone".
I'm just a lurker though, so take that as you will.

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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
Question about the new site: do we have the same moderators as before or do we even have moderators right now? The small arguement a few posts up just made me wonder.
At the top of the page there's a link that says "Modern Mods" that shows this subforum's mods. I'd assume the other subforums have a similar feature

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Post by Necrofish » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
not sure if people have seen this. Saw it yesterday, but was not able to share because my internet broke down.

Was Banning Bridge From Below In Modern The Right Call?

http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/3 ... -Call.html

they talked about faithless looting as well. :)
Not a fan of Faithless Looting either. Let's see how the meta evolves.
If Looting keeps being a busted card just print a nerfed version and ban it already.
Wydwen is much too cool for you.

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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

I'm still neutral on Looting, but otherwise I agree with Necrofish. Every deck using it has the immediate option of using either Tormenting Voice or Chart a Course, and if Wizards think that graveyard decks will drop too far off the radar without 1 mana looting spells, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to find a way to fit in Careful Study or a red equivalent into either a Standard set or the next MH set, which will give those decks a 1 mana set-up card while making it harder to come back after a blowout.

I'd still like to see how the meta looks after a few major tourneys post-Bridge before really revisiting Looting personally, but it does seem like a ban that Wizards could do while easily giving us a "nerfed" Looting within a small window of time. And, as Necrofish said, they could even do it in the opposite order: give us Careful Study, break the meta for a month, and then just ban Looting. Probably not the best PR move, but at least no one running grave decks would have to wait for their nerfed Looting.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
BloodyRabbit wrote:
1 year ago
Nut draws can happen.
I don't think it's just a matter of nut draws anymore. The new addition is to use Hedron Crab, which the guy said had been absolutely nuts for him. He said he basically never stumbled on anything all night, and the only cards he loses to are Turn 3 Ensnaring Bridge or Turn 0 Leyline. He said pretty much everything else is too slow or can be worked around. Must be nice. :thinking:

The only matches I lost all night were to him and to a burn player with double Eidolon. Interaction/reaction is for suckers. The most important element in the format is winning the die roll and getting them dead.
Crab tech. This got me curious. Could Hogaak be the reason that crabs are 4$ each now? Or they have been that price even before Hogaak was printed?
It's been a 4x staple in Mill for a long time, but normally targets opponents.

Putting it in Hogaak seems fascinating because it has massive synergy with everything. It's a 1 drop that helps put Vengevine into play (Thought Scour doesn't), it encourages fetchlands, which gel with Bloodghast, it repeatedly mills 3-6 cards (which he referred to as "free, repeatable Ancestral Recall") since it can put Grave Crawlers, Bloodghasts, Vengevines, and Hogaaks in the bin, and in a pinch it blocks small creatures. Seems like a great addition to the deck. Similar to how DSZ evolved to Grixis Shadow. Except it doesn't really lose much of its speed, only the Mill combo kill.
Misguided1 wrote:
1 year ago
I mean, I've found myself agreeing with quite a few of your posts, being a twin "apologist" or whatever myself, but tbh you do come across pretty aggressively in a lot of your posts/statements. After awhile it just comes across like a long-winded temper tantrum. I'm not trying to sling dirt or anything, just wanted to let you know that while it may seem that a lot of people "have issue with you", it seems self-brought sometimes due to your "tone".
I'm just a lurker though, so take that as you will.
I mean, this is an internet forum, so tone is always inferred by the reader. In case it was unclear, the particular story and subsequent reactions to my Hogaak experience were laughing and joking at the absurdity of my friend playing the deck and seeing how stupidly good it remains. His enthusiasm and excitement was palpable, and I got handily crushed 0-2, despite mega draws myself. I was in awe seeing it unfold in front oe me, and then hear his stories about the other rounds. Perhaps some emojis would help? :grin: :laugh: :thinking: ;) :woozy: :sick: After that match, there was nearly 30 minutes left on the clock. The two of us took a table in the back and played Commander with two other players that finished early. Had much more fun than several of my Modern rounds. Yarok is SWEEEEET. :crazy: :love: :halo:

What seemed to set off this scuttle was the "must be nice" comment, which was specifically alluding to how it must be nice to see your deck eat a ban and it's still just as fast and nearly as powerful. I figured that was clear. Then a bunch of words are put in my mouth by someone with a grudge. Sorry. Just wanted to share a funny story about the boogyman deck that just ate a ban, and how some new tech makes it feel just as busted in terms of putting creatures into play. :hmm:

Lastly, on the topic of Faithless Looting, it needs to go. I linked that exact SCG article (though I don't know if it was here or MTGS) and I agree with all their Looting assessments. Basically "there's no good time to get rid of it, but it needs to go." I also think that it's fairly silly that Looting is allowed to exist as it does in a format where Preordain is banned.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Banning Looting does not "eliminate" any graveyard strategies, it would simply slow them down or make them less consistent. Which is fine.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Banning Faithless Looting has a large impact on graveyard strategies for sure. Most graveyard strategies are being killed, one is just hampered down straight down to Tier 3 jank mode.
That is just an evaluation opinion though, and players are notoriously bad at evaluating cards. Alternatively, if a deck is so bad that it ceases to function without this card, then that card is so inherently broken that it has no place in the format, IMO.
If Dredge was to be Tier 0 all over again, it's the "Dredge 5" that would be looked at.
Both cards are and will be safe, move on. There is no need in any of you spreading danger about the format.
Curious about your thoughts on unbanning Preordain then. If cantrips don't cause the problems, should that remain banned?

Also, as noted in the article linked above, very few people seem to think Looting is "fine" or "good" for the format. The decks it enables are pretty awful and trend to "battle of sideboard" problems. The only reason not to ban it is prevalence, and that certainly didn't keep cards like Deathrite Shaman safe in Legacy.
Emma Handy wrote:If Faithless Looting has reached this point with Wizards of the Coast, it'll be fairly easy to tell pretty soon, because it's certainly at the power level that will demand some sort of action in the future. We'll be able to tell how important Faithless Looting is to Wizards when they choose to either ban Faithless Looting or just ban some card that it breaks once or twice a year.
Todd Anderson wrote:Too many decks exist because of Faithless Looting, and therefore banning the card will ultimately be too costly. But the downside is that we have to continue playing against Dredge, neutered Bridgevine, and a fully powered Izzet Phoenix for the foreseeable future. It's not like playing against Dredge and Izzet Phoenix was all that fun in the first place. They're just slightly less egregious than fully powered Bridgevine.

I don't think Faithless Looting will ever get banned. And as someone who plays a ton of Izzet Phoenix, Faithless Looting should absolutely be banned.
Cedric Phillips wrote:I don't necessarily disagree with this take, but graveyard strategies can also exist without Faithless Looting existing. We just have no idea what that style of things would look like because Faithless Looting has been around for so long. But I like the idea of a format where the graveyard decks is just ok and people have to make a real decision on if they're supposed to load up on graveyard hate or ignore things entirely. With Faithless Looting continuing to remain legal, we're still going to see things like Surgical Extraction maindeck, which, while smart and innovative when it began a few months ago, now resonates with me as 100% necessary for quite a few decks and a horrible look on the format.
...
Faithless Looting will continue to generate problems, not solutions.

It continues to be a matter not of if, but when, when it comes to Faithless Looting. So, in the words of Incubus's worst album, "If Not Now, When?"
Edit: Quick side note, for what it's worth our local store had an SCG IQ yesterday. I was unable to attend because of prior commitments, but the T8 was as follows (with the top 2 players choosing to split in the finals):
1) Izzet Phoenix
2) Harden Scales Affinity
3) Izzet Phoenix
4) Mono Red Prison
5) Izzet Phoenix
6) Grixis Urza
7) Grixis Urza
8) Boros Burn

Make of that what you will. :P
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

If those are your feelings, should Preordain come off the banned list? If cantrips aren't the problem, should that remain banned? I asked that in the previous post, but it seemed to be missed. :nerd:

Related to Looting, I refuse to accept the logic that "lots of people play it, so it should be OK" as a reasonable justification for its placement in the format. When nearly everything it enables is some form of degenerate graveyard abuse, and will inevitably lead to future bans. As Emma Handy pointed out, we will get a clearer picture over the next year if they ban card after card in various Looting decks, or just do the right thing and hit Looting itself.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
That is just an evaluation opinion though, and players are notoriously bad at evaluating cards. Alternatively, if a deck is so bad that it ceases to function without this card, then that card is so inherently broken that it has no place in the format, IMO.
You uh..may want to be careful on that one. :laugh:

Its largely irrelevant anyway, because if you hit looting, you go after what next? Stirrings? Then what? Teferi? Then what?

People would largely accept that over the span of 3 years, but I doubt it helps anything.
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

Cfusionpm, I really appreciated your story and pictures of what you were play and the hogaak board state. I used hedron crab in dredge for a bit and an earlier dredgevine list and liked it, but the deck evolution got better and better so I eventually had to cut them. Now that we are talking about putting them back in I would like to know what else he was running that was blue, did you see anything else? Prized almagum, narcameba, thought scour, glimpse the unthinkable, or anything else?

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
Cfusionpm, I really appreciated your story and pictures of what you were play and the hogaak board state. I used hedron crab in dredge for a bit and an earlier dredgevine list and liked it, but the deck evolution got better and better so I eventually had to cut them. Now that we are talking about putting them back in I would like to know what else he was running that was blue, did you see anything else? Prized almagum, narcameba, thought scour, glimpse the unthinkable, or anything else?
He had mentioned having Amalgams, but I did not see them or Narcomebas. Honestly though, I was much more interested in jamming more games with Yarok between rounds than looking through a deck I never want to play against! :crazy: Definitely no Glimpse though. The only non-creature spell, other than SB stuff I think, was Looting.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
That is just an evaluation opinion though, and players are notoriously bad at evaluating cards. Alternatively, if a deck is so bad that it ceases to function without this card, then that card is so inherently broken that it has no place in the format, IMO.
You uh..may want to be careful on that one. :laugh:
:grin: :grin: :grin: :crazy: Walked right into that one!
Though some have argued the deck is just fine as is. They're wrong, but... :shhh:
Its largely irrelevant anyway, because if you hit looting, you go after what next? Stirrings? Then what? Teferi? Then what?
See what single card is causing the most problems throughout the format. Just like Deathrite Shaman for Legacy, and apparently Gitaxian Probe not too long ago here.
I would certainly enjoy burning the format to the ground and starting from scratch; banning at least dozen or so problematic cards. But as it stands, there is no one that is causing more problems than Looting.

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Post by Necrofish » 1 year ago

At this point I'm just waiting for the Counterspell reprint.
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

Looting will have to go if dredgy phoenixy are all we see at the end of the Mythic Champs. Bridge is a card I personally hate, but I feel like it was a specific card for a specific type of degenerate strat. Looting is a general purpose offender, enabling obnoxious GY strats, being the most efficient hand fixer in the format, having flashback, etc.

They know its an ugly strat to fight (Bridge banned). People need to stop playing it or its going to get more bans.
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 1 year ago

I fail to understand how people can be so scared of Izzet Phoenix. Its typical goldfish time is the fifth turn. It doesn’t typically pack permission maindeck. It dies to Narset. Surgical Extractions everywhere.

But ‘Looting is a problem because Phoenix is a problem’. The conversion rate isn’t even that high. It’s one of the most played strategies because it is: a) consistent, b) cheap for a Tier.

Dredge, on the other hand, is a fine deck on its own, and again I don’t understand the criticism. If you want to take away a piece from it, let’s talk about Creeping Chill. I think it’s perfectly reasonable in the metagame, though.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

Dredge is annoying to play against and creates unfun games. That's bad for wotc's bottom line at the end of the day so I feel like they will move to get rid of the deck based on it's popularity alone. They don't care if dredge is no worse than "xxxx", because "xxxx" is more fun to play against and they will ban it accordingly.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

looks like the looting discussion continue.
nice seeing both sides say why and why not it should get ban.

having a little fun with my Mardu Pyro deck. Kaya's Guile is good new card. Anyway, if looting get banned.. my deck would be almost dead, but it's ok -- will just try to find a looting replacement although that replacement would be something less strong like Tormenting Voice. Maybe people would ease up and take away most of their grave hate when looting is jailed with a ban? right now it's so hard to gather instant and sorceries for Bedlam Reveler because people wipe my yard right away, People wanting to crap on Phoenix, Dredge, and Hogaak also hit my deck with yard removal. :unamused:
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Those are not my feelings right here. These are LSV's, Matt Nass's, Sperling's, WOTC's feelings. They do not think Looting is in any danger, not because "lots of people play it" reasons, but for valid reasons: The decks that play it do not have crazy win rates. As long as that's happening, everything is fine. If something breaches this, Wizards will probably look to "ban a card that has the minimal impact on the rest of the decks".
This probably means Creeping Chill, Dredge 5 or something else.
It's easy really: Their opinions are very likely to be tru-er than our opinion in here.
Nobody is listening 2-3 guys in mtgnexus saying Looting is busted, 2 other trying to argue that's fine, or 3 more that say Stirrings should be banned, and then some other that will be saying "just ban tronlands" if Tron wins the incoming Pro Tour.

We should always choose to cite high calibre Pro Tour players, but most importantly WOTC's texts and weight those opinions more than the opinions that come from some SCG presenters(admittedly, Todd is a very good mtg player, still no strong PT presence).

TLDR: I go by Wizards quotes, then follow Sperling, Matt nass, LSV. You choose to hear Emma H. Like I said, every man has a right to choose the source who wants to believe. Choose freely, but wisely.
Quoting this for truth. I disagree that Looting is fair and fine, but let's get real: their opinions carry weight, ours don't.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

@gkorou

ah, so you've encounted a deck using it, Kaya's Guile is good. I usually cast some discard first to lessen the chances of it getting countered. Resolving a Kaya's Guile feels like a Kolaghan's Command because of the 2 for 1. Not yet able to entwine it though. :)

still... I hope the amount of grave hate would someday decrease. Plenty times I could not cast bedlam reveler, because the opponent has mulliganed to their leyline of the void.

EDIT: thinking again, what I've said feels like a contradiction. Want grave hate to decrease, but play 3 mainboard kaya's guile myself. :omg:
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 1 year ago

I stopped playing Grixis Shadow since Leyline of the Void was rampant in the metagame.

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Post by spawnofhastur » 1 year ago

Aria of Flame is a right pain in the behind to deal with. But I might just be bad.

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 1 year ago

Fact is, there are lots of countermeasures. Aria of Flame on the third turn means killing on the fifth, unless you’re very lucky. Killing on the fifth turn for a deck without permission is a lot. It also is very painful for the Phoenix player whenever you can deal with it immediately, bouncing or destroying Aria, leaving you with 10 more life points.

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 1 year ago

I was talking about goldfish. If the opponent runs discard or counterspells is a different story, obviously.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

If you are looking for everyone to be happy about Dredge being a deck that people can viably choose, forget it. It has nothing to do with how "fair" it is and everything to do with how annoying it is to play against. Dredge needs to fight its own popularity to stay under the radar, and frankly that works fine for the rest of us as well.

TL;DL: Dredge players can have dredge but it wont ever be allowed to be the most popular deck for more than 1 cycle.
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