[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Tzoulis
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Wraithpk wrote:
1 year ago
So a bunch of narrow cards that people aren't already playing? As a UW player, the only one of those I would play is Pithing Needle, but that does nothing against Urza's construct or Sai/Saheeli's tokens.

The bottom line is that the deck has very few weaknesses, if any. It's not weak to graveyard hate. It's not weak to Stoney Silence or point artifact removal. Creature removal can be good, but they'll still get some value before you get to use it, and if their payoff is Saheeli it does nothing. Counters can be good, but they can overload you with must-counter spells, so something will eventually get through.

So what's actually good against the deck? Burn if they have an early Eidolon? Shadow decks if they have a really good first few turns? That's kind of the problem with the deck. At least with the Whirza deck it was weak to graveyard hate, but this new build is not.
Explosives and Pithing Needle are narrow? Manglehorn and Kataki are narrow? Chalice and Lavinia are narrow? Dispute is narrow, but Dispel isn't? Unmoored Ego and Plague Engineers are narrow? Damping Sphere is narrow?

What the hell are you putting in your sideboard...

As a UW control you had a bad matchup with Thopter Sword before Urza and RiP was mediocre against it even then. If you play Damping Sphere against Tron does tha mean that you're set for life because you "crippled" the and that you can easily ignore whatever else they have?

Your 2nd paragraph can be said for almost every deck in Modern and there was plenty of whining about 2-for-1 creatures in these threads, especially when Humans were at the top.

The problem of the deck is that their opponents may stumble and/or do little during the setup turns? Gee, then the deck is unbeatable.

Infect, Mono-R Prowess and Burn are awful for the PO version, less so for Whirza. Shadow decks are great against both - who knew that disruption and a fast clock is bad for combo decks. E-tron is - in theory- good against PO (haven't played against it yet), as is Tron. Amulet has a great match up against it as well. Unclear about humans, but company decks can really dismantle both versions of Urza (and Vizier decks %$#% on both versions).

Note that the above is for the non-Ascendancy versions of PO, which I haven't played with yet, but my intuition is that you're trading consistency and great mana base for another way to combo and a chance for T2-T3 kills and several awkward draws.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Wraithpk wrote:
1 year ago
So a bunch of narrow cards that people aren't already playing? As a UW player, the only one of those I would play is Pithing Needle, but that does nothing against Urza's construct or Sai/Saheeli's tokens.

The bottom line is that the deck has very few weaknesses, if any. It's not weak to graveyard hate. It's not weak to Stoney Silence or point artifact removal. Creature removal can be good, but they'll still get some value before you get to use it, and if their payoff is Saheeli it does nothing. Counters can be good, but they can overload you with must-counter spells, so something will eventually get through.

So what's actually good against the deck? Burn if they have an early Eidolon? Shadow decks if they have a really good first few turns? That's kind of the problem with the deck. At least with the Whirza deck it was weak to graveyard hate, but this new build is not.
Explosives and Pithing Needle are narrow? Manglehorn and Kataki are narrow? Chalice and Lavinia are narrow? Dispute is narrow, but Dispel isn't? Unmoored Ego and Plague Engineers are narrow? Damping Sphere is narrow?

What the hell are you putting in your sideboard...
referring to bolded part. Yes, manglehorn is narrow and I would add that spending 3 mana for a single "destroy" effect of one artifact is too weak. I'm a resident of mono-g stompy thread on salvation, and I haven't seen anyone put that creature in their sideboard. Creeping Corrosion - mass wipe.. and deglamer - prevents regeneration / gy recursion.. are better sideboard cards for mono g builds of stompy.
Last edited by The Fluff 1 year ago, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Arkmer » 1 year ago

As odd as it might sound, March of the Machines is probably pretty good against them if you can untap into Verdict. Add Night of Soul's Betrayal and you're leaving them with very little to play with. You're using state based effects to shut off all their artifacts with 0cmc, then 1cmc with Betrayal. From the lists I've seen they only have 2 Trophy to deal with them. The combo is probably debilitating enough to earn a game concession once they realize how effective it is. Issue is tapping low for two 4cmc enchantments, lol.

That's probably the most narrow card you can use to counter Whirza, but if you go that route you may just want to remove the rest of your Artifact hate because now you can Path their Thopter Foundry. I would also suggest the Green players look into Splinter if you want a spell to do the work with. Just be aware they can respond with Whir and put a second whatever into play to dodge the surgical effect.

There's a ton of weird cards out there. I think if Whirza is the best deck and eats up meta share, then you'll just have to make some concessions in the board to fight it. Sort of like how we ended with main board Surgical Extractions in many decks before Looting took a dive.
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

You really can't use hate cards versus urza which costs less as 3 mana. It is the same problem like against Kci... Playset engineered explosives handle this so easy and they use all now a playset of this main. It is not so easy Hatable like you say and we really learned this versus Kci and the engineered explosive problem in past... No need to learn it again and again.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Wraithpk wrote:
1 year ago
So a bunch of narrow cards that people aren't already playing? As a UW player, the only one of those I would play is Pithing Needle, but that does nothing against Urza's construct or Sai/Saheeli's tokens.

The bottom line is that the deck has very few weaknesses, if any. It's not weak to graveyard hate. It's not weak to Stoney Silence or point artifact removal. Creature removal can be good, but they'll still get some value before you get to use it, and if their payoff is Saheeli it does nothing. Counters can be good, but they can overload you with must-counter spells, so something will eventually get through.

So what's actually good against the deck? Burn if they have an early Eidolon? Shadow decks if they have a really good first few turns? That's kind of the problem with the deck. At least with the Whirza deck it was weak to graveyard hate, but this new build is not.
Explosives and Pithing Needle are narrow? Manglehorn and Kataki are narrow? Chalice and Lavinia are narrow? Dispute is narrow, but Dispel isn't? Unmoored Ego and Plague Engineers are narrow? Damping Sphere is narrow?

What the hell are you putting in your sideboard...
referring to bolded part. Yes, manglehorn is narrow and I would add that spending 3 mana for a single "destroy" effect of one artifact is too weak. I'm a resident of mono-g stompy thread on salvation, and I haven't seen anyone put that creature in their sideboard. Creeping Corrosion - mass wipe.. and deglamer - prevents regeneration / gy recursion.. are better sideboard cards for mono g builds of stompy.
For Mono-G stompy maybe, but not for company decks or Titanshift, they already play Rec Sage. The bonus with Mangle horn is that the artifacts enter tapped so you stall their mana and thopters/servos.
Arkmer wrote:
1 year ago
As odd as it might sound, March of the Machines is probably pretty good against them if you can untap into Verdict. Add Night of Soul's Betrayal and you're leaving them with very little to play with. You're using state based effects to shut off all their artifacts with 0cmc, then 1cmc with Betrayal. From the lists I've seen they only have 2 Trophy to deal with them. The combo is probably debilitating enough to earn a game concession once they realize how effective it is. Issue is tapping low for two 4cmc enchantments, lol.

That's probably the most narrow card you can use to counter Whirza, but if you go that route you may just want to remove the rest of your Artifact hate because now you can Path their Thopter Foundry. I would also suggest the Green players look into Splinter if you want a spell to do the work with. Just be aware they can respond with Whir and put a second whatever into play to dodge the surgical effect.

There's a ton of weird cards out there. I think if Whirza is the best deck and eats up meta share, then you'll just have to make some concessions in the board to fight it. Sort of like how we ended with main board Surgical Extractions in many decks before Looting took a dive.
Waaay too deep my friend. Just start with the cards and decks mentioned.

I'll a couple more cards that came to my mind:
1. Gaddock Teeg hoses their board control (explosives), their major payof (outcome) and part of their sideboard (Tezzerets).
2. Thalia.

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Post by Arkmer » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Waaay too deep my friend. Just start with the cards and decks mentioned.
Not at all, I already play x2 Betrayal and x2 Engineer with good success. I would literally only be adding 1-2 cards to my board. And if it sounds to narrow (because it is), it also stops equipment from attaching to things (see SFM decks). But as we've all come to determine, Whirza is going to be very difficult to hate out, so if it comes to this extreme then why throw shade?

If I start seeing Whirza, I'm trying it. Pretty much my mantra to hate on Artifact decks.
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Post by Wraithpk » 1 year ago

Pithing Needle isn't good against them. It does nothing to stop the Thopter/servo generation of Sai or Saheeli, and it doesn't stop Urza's construct or his mana ability. Maybe you can wipe their tokens with EE, but they'll just make a ton more the next turn. They can also PO in response and blow you out.

Manglehorn just slows them down, it doesn't meaningfully stop any part of their gameplan.

Yes, Lavinia is narrow and bad. They still get tokens even if their 0s are countered.

They can out-mana a Damping Sphere easily. I've seen them go off through one.

Unmoored Ego, Plague Engineer, and Kataki are all good, but not everyone can play them.

I don't know if the deck needs a ban yet, all i'm saying is that it's an unfair combo deck that has no obvious weaknesses a fair deck can attack, and that's troubling to me. I guess we'll just have to see how it plays out.
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Post by Yawgmoth » 1 year ago

To all those clamoring for an Urza nerf (Opal ban). Two things:

1. Urza is not oppressive to the point of needing a ban. It's a very strong deck than can be beaten (and is imho a lot of fun to metagame against). It's different enough from previous decks that's I consider it a positive addition to the diversity of modern and I am not an Urza player.

2, Opal is not critical for Urza decks to function at full capacity. I've played against decks with and without opals (my play testing team has tried to determine how important Opal is for turning the corner) and I don't think it is as important as people think. Yes Opal is a very strong card but other mana rocks fit the bill just as well in most cases. The only exception to this is that the pyrite spellbomb alternate win con is not possible without Opal but this clearly does not kill the deck. You could ban Opal on principle because it's "too fast" for modern but it won't kill Urza so don't get the two confused.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Yawgmoth wrote:
1 year ago
2, Opal is not critical for Urza decks to function at full capacity. I've played against decks with and without opals (my play testing team has tried to determine how important Opal is for turning the corner) and I don't think it is as important as people think. Yes Opal is a very strong card but other mana rocks fit the bill just as well in most cases. The only exception to this is that the pyrite spellbomb alternate win con is not possible without Opal but this clearly does not kill the deck. You could ban Opal on principle because it's "too fast" for modern but it won't kill Urza so don't get the two confused.
Exactly. I think this is deja vu, where Urza, Lord High Artificer is like Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis, albeit not as powerful and in your face. People will act like every card is a problem except the new Modern Horizons card and in the end, they will realize that nothing needed a ban except the new card that broke stuff. (well, Looting did need to go, but that was already a problem independent of the Hogaak deck)

That being said, I'm not trying to start ban mania. It's way too early to clamor for any ban, like smarter people than me have already said. But it is definitely something to see into for the future. If you're getting on the Urza train, you know in your heart that the deck won't be legal for the next 3 years.

*That being said, I'm excited to get my Mox Ambers in the mail and I'm ready to jam the new Paradoxical version to see if it's really better than Whirza. ;)
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 1 year ago

Urza is maybe the best deck in the metagame.

But one has to be the best deck.

It's not oppressive in the slightest, c'mon guys.

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Post by ModernDefector » 1 year ago

What's everyone's predictions for future bannings in the %$#% that is Modren?

Mine: Within six months, Opal and Urza banned. Within a year, Ancient Stirrings and/or Once Upon a Time banned.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Wraithpk wrote:
1 year ago
Pithing Needle isn't good against them. It does nothing to stop the Thopter/servo generation of Sai or Saheeli, and it doesn't stop Urza's construct or his mana ability. Maybe you can wipe their tokens with EE, but they'll just make a ton more the next turn. They can also PO in response and blow you out.

Manglehorn just slows them down, it doesn't meaningfully stop any part of their gameplan.

Yes, Lavinia is narrow and bad. They still get tokens even if their 0s are countered.

They can out-mana a Damping Sphere easily. I've seen them go off through one.

Unmoored Ego, Plague Engineer, and Kataki are all good, but not everyone can play them.

I don't know if the deck needs a ban yet, all i'm saying is that it's an unfair combo deck that has no obvious weaknesses a fair deck can attack, and that's troubling to me. I guess we'll just have to see how it plays out.
How can you outmana a Damping Sphere outside of infinite mana? The deck's weaknesses are apparent, I've outlined them several times, you keep hand-waiving them.

Shadow decks, Burn and Mono-R Prowess and Non-Vizier Company decks are unfair now? Because all of them use different tools and exploit different weaknesses of the deck.

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Post by Wraithpk » 1 year ago

I've seen the PO deck generate 20 mana on turn 3. It can still do a lot under a Damping Sphere. And you really haven't outlined its weaknesses. Playing narrow sideboard cards that aren't even that good against it and aren't good against anyone else isn't a good answer. The only really good solution I'm seeing is to just race them, because trying to play any kind of longer interactive game is a losing proposition. I watched the deck win a game today through three Karn Liberated and an Ulamog. If racing is the only good way to beat them, then there's a good chance we have a problem.

And again, I'm not saying it should be banned yet. I don't know yet. I just haven't seen any suggestions for really good sideboard cards to help slower fair decks against it outside of Kataki, because usual artifact hate is just bad against them. The deck just attacks from so many angles that it might just be a losing battle to try and interact with them.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

[mention]Wraithpk[/mention]

so trying to kill them quickly is the best game plan against the PO decks? I've been reading the previous posts, and wow.. they could get through a damping sphere with the combo. :omg:

also not advocate for any ban right now. Let's just see what happen in the next few months. Will Urza spend the holiday season in modern, or will he be banned before Christmas. Nobody knows.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

You all have a very... weird definition of the word "narrow". Other than Deafening Silence and -maybe- Lavinia, everything else are cards that can be used by multiple decks against multiple archetypes. Especially, Thalia/Kataki, Ego, Chalices and Damping Spheres.

And yeah, Karn Liberated is crap against the deck, just like spot artifact removal. Karn, the Great Creator and Oblivion Stone on the other hand.... Also to create 20 mana on T3 THROUGH a Damping Sphere is a god hand, so why are we not whining about infect's T2 kill aswell or storm's T3 kill too.

[mention]The Fluff[/mention], no racing them is NOT the only option. It's the same as every other combo/grindy decks (Hey look, it's like Twin!). Go under them or over the top. E-Tron/Tron, Amulet and Titanshift are good against it. As are Shadow decks and most of the aggro decks.

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Post by Lear_the_cat » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
Wraithpk
also not advocate for any ban right now. Let's just see what happen in the next few months. Will Urza spend the holiday season in modern, or will he be banned before Christmas. Nobody knows.
I'm tired of waiting each time to let everyone see that deck or card is busted. And there will be no fun modern format for a long time. It happened a lot of times and don't want to see it happen again =\

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Post by Lear_the_cat » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
so why are we not whining about infect's T2 kill aswell or storm's T3 kill too.
Maybe because it's much easier to stop that game plans, don't you think?

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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

ModernDefector wrote:
1 year ago
What's everyone's predictions for future bannings in the shltshow that is Modren?

Mine: Within six months, Opal and Urza banned. Within a year, Ancient Stirrings and/or Once Upon a Time banned.
Yeeeeah that's completely unrealistic and completely unjustified. For one, they would never go for 4 bans within a year, and especially not without an unban. There needs to be time to prove that these cards are busted, none of which has proven it yet, and then time for the metagame to settle again so this would never happen.

I have no idea why modern is a %$#%. Modern is actually great right now, a ton of diversity, and I feel like we are looking for scapegoats to keep the banmania flowing. This time it's the Urza decks. Heck, they didn't even have 6 months of play time, and there haven't been any major tournaments won by them, relax. This is similar to the rise of Grixs Death's Shadow, people for whatever reason were losing their mind over it and not it's just an acceptable player. The same was true for Lantern control, people thought that it was by and far the best deck that people didn't play, until nobody plays it any more. Heck, even Tron at times has been considered a prime ban target, especially when the new Karn was spoiled, but the Karn-Lattice combo hasn't broken anything yet.

So why not just chill with the banmania for a bit and see how things play out? There is literally a TON of things you can profitably be doing now in modern. Even a new Grixis control deck has been on the rise with multiple 5-0s and some good tournament showings. Calling modern a %$#% is just miles away from reality.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

On a minor thing again. For those who already have them. Are the eldraine lands performing well for you? The only castle I pre-ordered is Ardenvale, and it has been good so far. Better than the shefet dunes that it replaced in my deck. It's a hot target for opposing ghost quarters, but if not destroyed it provides me creatures to grind with in mid-late game.
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Post by Arkmer » 1 year ago

The only one I've tried is a single Mystic Sanctuary and it has been good enough to want to keep. However, it isn't card advantage if you're looping Cryptics, it creates a fake card density. The Cryptic loop really put my opponents on edge a few games. They know that their spells are more finite than mine and their tempo is falling behind with it. However, having extra ways to draw cards is pretty important if you're going to further your own tempo through it all. Basically felt like a soft lock that also locks you to an extent as well.

Haven't used any of the castles yet. They just don't seem to want to fit in 3 color decks with all the other lands. Least not comfortably.
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Post by Lear_the_cat » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
ModernDefector wrote:
1 year ago
What's everyone's predictions for future bannings in the shltshow that is Modren?

Mine: Within six months, Opal and Urza banned. Within a year, Ancient Stirrings and/or Once Upon a Time banned.
Modern is actually great right now, a ton of diversity, and I feel like we are looking for scapegoats to keep the banmania flowing. T
Can you decrypt what kind of diversity you mean please?

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Post by Lear_the_cat » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
On a minor thing again. For those who already have them. Are the eldraine lands performing well for you?
Mystic Sanctuary feels like the most powerfull one, other are pretty mediocore. 2nd in usability I can call Castle Ardenvale with SFM pack.

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Post by Arkmer » 1 year ago

Lear_the_cat wrote:
1 year ago
Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
ModernDefector wrote:
1 year ago
What's everyone's predictions for future bannings in the shltshow that is Modren?

Mine: Within six months, Opal and Urza banned. Within a year, Ancient Stirrings and/or Once Upon a Time banned.
Modern is actually great right now, a ton of diversity, and I feel like we are looking for scapegoats to keep the banmania flowing. T
Can you decrypt what kind of diversity you mean please?
This is the first time in an incredibly long time that I don't show up to my LGS with x2 Surgical and x4 Leyline of the Void. Instead I've played against 2 different Stoneblade decks, Bant Soulherder, Blue Moon, UW control, UW Spirits, Valakut, Elementals (guy was 4-0 last night), Humans, GDS, Fish, Jund, Gx Tron, Mono red aggro, Slivers (seriously), Niv to Light, dredge (still a thing), etc. I personally am looking at building 3 different kinds of Bant.

Almost all the lists prior to the ban were only focused on a few things: Going as fast as possible, fighting decks that go as fast as possible (with random happenstance when fighting non-linear lists), or decks that do both.

Edit: There was a whirza player in my LGS last night. He doesn't show up often but we know him fairly well and he is a pretty dedicated grinder. We'll see if he keeps coming with Whirza. It was the first time he's played the deck, but we could tell the list was really good.
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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

Lear_the_cat wrote:
1 year ago
Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
ModernDefector wrote:
1 year ago
What's everyone's predictions for future bannings in the shltshow that is Modren?

Mine: Within six months, Opal and Urza banned. Within a year, Ancient Stirrings and/or Once Upon a Time banned.
Modern is actually great right now, a ton of diversity, and I feel like we are looking for scapegoats to keep the banmania flowing. T
Can you decrypt what kind of diversity you mean please?
Sure, in modern right now you can justifiably play:
Control: UW hard control, UW stoneforge control, and Grixis control has been showing great potential
Midrange: Jund, GDS/Mardu Shadow/Jund Shadow, UW/Bant Stoneblade, Eldrazi Tron, 5C Niv,
Big Mana: Tron, Titanshift, Amulet Titan
Aggro: Affinity/Hardened Scale, Humans, Burn
Combo: Whirza/PO Urza, Ad Nauseam, BTL Scapeshift, Twiddle Storm
GY based: Dredge

All these decks have shown potential both in 5-0 leagues (yeah yeah, curated blah blah, they still did it), as well as MTGO challenges, SCG Classics, and other moderate tournaments like MCM tourneys. I mean, I know people will call a lot of these decks awful, but that is not really an argument. just calling something awful doesn't make it awful.

Granted, of course, that we haven't seen a major modern tournament YET, we can't say anything for sure, but the same goes for the argument that "modern is a %$#%, ban 4 cards in a year". For me, modern has been the most enjoyable in a while, and I am one of the few people that actually HAVE enjoy modern for years, with the only exceptions being the Eldrazi winter and the Hogaak summer. Besides that, I enjoyed every other iteration of modern.
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Post by Greatest Gargadon » 1 year ago

Lear_the_cat wrote:
1 year ago
Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
ModernDefector wrote:
1 year ago
What's everyone's predictions for future bannings in the shltshow that is Modren?

Mine: Within six months, Opal and Urza banned. Within a year, Ancient Stirrings and/or Once Upon a Time banned.
Modern is actually great right now, a ton of diversity, and I feel like we are looking for scapegoats to keep the banmania flowing. T
Can you decrypt what kind of diversity you mean please?
At the Magicfest modern side events this weekend, I faced boggles, burn, hardened scales day 1. Blue moon, Jund, Jeskai tempo day2. I saw Elves, a lot of Tron, Etron, Scapeshift, Whirza, Emry, Infect, UW control, Mardu Pyromancer, Spirits, Amulet titan, Humans. Mill (which was crushing it), Ad nauseum, Grixis Death's Shadow. Compared to the pre-banning MCQ I went to, which was Hogaak, UW control, Red Phoenix, Infect.

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