[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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FoodChainGoblins
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
frederico wrote:
1 year ago
try playing against jitte with any creature based or aggressive strategy (revolt zoo, soulherder, affinity, scales, goblins, merfolk, chord and company variants, burn, dredge, humans, spirits, infect, prowess, elves) and let me know how that promotion of diversity in fair decks goes for you
So the match you are describing is two creature based decks fighting each other with powerful artifacts playing a big role? Yep sign me up. It's not like we currently have a good modern Jitte equivalent that Jitte would push out of the format. We literally have no equipment to support fair creature decks in modern.
So instead of having the removal once (like vs. Splinter Twin), you need to have removal for every single creature that could be equipped? That would further the divide between decks that have creatures vs. decks that "don't" have creatures.

Stoneforge Mystic decks would get Jitte vs. creature decks and Batterskull vs. non creature decks. In Legacy, Jitte is often better than Batterskull, like vs. Elves or RUG Delver for example.

*The issue with Jitte is that it encourages creature decks because that's what is good with the Jitte. But at the same time, it encourages people to play decks that don't care about Jitte because if you are in the Jitte mirror and your opponent wins the die roll, you better have removal or the game is over. The game is over. Jitte leads to odd stuff like a Stoneforge Mystic giving itself a -1/-1 counter so that it can attack through Ensnaring Bridge. Then the +2/+2 pumps come and give 2 more counters to the Jitte. That is just the tip of the iceberg. There are insanely powerful things you can do with Jitte once you get just 2 measly counters on that thing. It seriously is one of the most oppressing cards that could come off the ban list. I put it in the Level 2 right after level 1 (that has Misstep, Eye of Ugin, and Skullclamp).
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

I've been seeing a lot more BTL Scapeshift around lately, is it suddenly well positioned now?

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

I should have known better than to expect actual objective conjecture from the "Looting is ok!" crowd. Sigh.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
I should have known better than to expect actual objective conjecture from the "Looting is ok!" crowd. Sigh.
Who said Faithless Looting was okay? Some may have said that it would be nice to see how it did in the format where Stoneforge Mystic was legal, but I doubt anyone seriously thought the card was okay. (well, maybe a few people, but then there are people who say Jitte is okay)

I couldn't find it on google, but I recall seeing that Wizards messed up a bit with how strong they made Jitte. Sure, a broken card in Standard long ago and a solid card in Legacy may actually be okay in Modern, but this one is not. Try the card out with players that know how to play creature mirrors. See how it does. Test it out with Stoneforge Mystic vs. a deck with Jitte, but no Mystic. Put it in every single deck trying to do damage via combat. Then come back and tell us it's okay. I would rather trust those who have played the card extensively and also played Modern extensively than someone who thinks it's merely okay because if someone Bolts you creature in response, you scoop.

Right now, you could say a lot of things because of how good Paradoxical Urza is. That doesn't mean that it's okay for the format in the future. To be honest, you could unban 10 cards right now to compete with that deck, but that doesn't mean it's all right. It's just like when Hogaak was in the format, you could literally unban every single Modern card to compete with it and it would be Eye of Ugin Eldrazi vs. Hogaak. Doesn't make it right...
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

motleyslayer wrote:
1 year ago
I've been seeing a lot more BTL Scapeshift around lately, is it suddenly well positioned now?
Most people in Modern play what they want to play (or what own), whether it's well positioned or not.

And for my 2 cents: Looting is not OK and I've been saying just that for nearly a year, Stoneforge is laughably mediocre and has done nothing of importance besides spike in price, and Jitte might be a slightly above average card in a format that routinely kills you in the same time it takes to play and equip one.

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Post by Greatest Gargadon » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
I should have known better than to expect actual objective conjecture from the "Looting is ok!" crowd. Sigh.
The forums are not a monolith.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago

And for my 2 cents: Looting is not OK and I've been saying just that for nearly a year, Stoneforge is laughably mediocre and has done nothing of importance besides spike in price, and Jitte might be a slightly above average card in a format that routinely kills you in the same time it takes to play and equip one.
Regardless of how easily the format could theoretically deal with it, it'll still make every creature aggro deck start with some number of jitte, because not having one is strictly worse than having one. It also activates in response to interaction for free. I played it in Maverick in legacy, I really don't see how it wouldn't hurt the format.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

1) Anything that can slow down aggro in a format as punishingly fast as Modern should be fine.
2) What a card does in a particular format is wholly irrelevant to its performance in another format.

I think it's just more unsupported fear, just like it was for AV, just like it was for Jace, just like it was for Stoneforge.

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Post by Misguided1 » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
I should have known better than to expect actual objective conjecture from the "Looting is ok!" crowd. Sigh.
I mean, I just read through everything and nothing came across as "NuH uH!! uR DuMb!!11!", I felt like there were just a few people saying "I've played this card, it's top tier, don't be fooled." One of the posters even layed out the lines with jitte and how they change decks' lines, which I would classify as providing "conjecture". I've only played the card a few times back in the day in legacy fish, and yea, it was really good. Better than I expected from reading the card. But I don't have enough experience with the card, so I'm not sure if it would be okay in modern or not. I'm leaning towards No, but I could be convinced to let it have a turn on the unban list.

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Post by Wraithpk » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
I should have known better than to expect actual objective conjecture from the "Looting is ok!" crowd. Sigh.
I mean, I think I gave you a pretty good explanation of why I think it's too powerful. Don't come asking for everyone's opinion on a card if you're not willing to accept people disagreeing with you. Or better yet, go test the card like we're doing with Twin. Come up with some objective data and prove to all of us that the card is ok to have in Modern.
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

I'm just pointing out that this forum had it's head in the sand about Hogaak and looting literally from day 1. Now were on the Twin is ok bandwagon? Ok fine. But holy crap dont suggest Jitte! Because...reasons.

Anyone care to argue the point I made about Modern having ZERO equipment support for fair creature based decks? No? K.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

People knew Hogaak was the problem in my opinion, no matter how many try to argue that they weren't sure. Anyone who played the deck or played against the deck realized that Hogaak was the problem. Players just got too used to Looting in Modern. They didn't want to see it go because it killed so many decks on the way out. It was similar to being the Brainstorm of Modern. (a card that is better than at least 5 other cards on the ban list, but gets a free pass)

I will tell you absolutely that not everyone is on the unban Twin bandwagon. Some are just willing to explore it. Just like wraithpk said, if you want to test Jitte and provide some concrete evidence, then go for it! I hope they are doing the same for Twin.

Equipment was barely played at all in Modern, but with Stoneforge Mystic, I don't think you can say that anymore. There are several Stoneforge Mystic decks popping up - I've seen UW, Bant, and Jeskai. Batterskull, Sword of Feast and Famine, and Sword of Fire and Ice all see a tiny bit of Modern play now.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Lear_the_cat » 1 year ago

Thank you for your answers about Mox Opal, guys.
As I can see now Urza decks are a problem and I can see 2 solutions: to kill Urza decks or to slow them down so much slower but powerfull artifact hate can match up in speed.
In first occasion we can loose artifact archetype att all. Thanks to extremly powerfull new planeswalkers from War of the Spark and MH. (Karn, the Great Creator)
In second occasion we can just ban Mox Opal so we will slow down Urza decks but they will still be powerfull enough to compete in current modern metagame.

Coming back to first problem of Urza decks. I mentioned cheap and extremly powerfull planeswalkers and I think they will become next huge problem in next few years after current imbalanced cards from MH will be banned. And there're several reasons for that:
There're mostly no direct answers for planeswalkers in most colors that can be maindeckable;
Their toughness with their + ability is always above Lightning Bolt range and their - ability gives you value so you trade same 1-2 with Bolt;
Most of planeswalkers have built in defensive abilities to protect themselves from creatures.

So I don't think that banning cards with current Wizard's politic of printing busted cards is a reasonable descision. Better just unban other broken cards from ban list and let metagame evolve on it's own and most people won't be angry of banned foiled favourite decks.
I think it's time for Modern to die and become like Legacy because there's no real solution to escape rat race that Wizards created.

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Post by pizzap » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
I'm just pointing out that this forum had it's head in the sand about Hogaak and looting literally from day 1. Now were on the Twin is ok bandwagon? Ok fine. But holy crap dont suggest Jitte! Because...reasons.

Anyone care to argue the point I made about Modern having ZERO equipment support for fair creature based decks? No? K.
It has little to do with Twin or Hogaak.
- You said that Jitte would be fair AT BEST. This is what most people would disagree with. The card might be fair, but certainly has the potential to be a lot better than fair. Excluding the possibility that it might be better than fair shows your underestimation of the card and gets people triggered.
- You thought that you would need to connect with Jitte, while Jitte is the notorious exception that doesn't need to connect. This shows that you probably never played with or against it, while you go all in advocating an unban. This gets more people triggered.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

pizzap wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
I'm just pointing out that this forum had it's head in the sand about Hogaak and looting literally from day 1. Now were on the Twin is ok bandwagon? Ok fine. But holy crap dont suggest Jitte! Because...reasons.

Anyone care to argue the point I made about Modern having ZERO equipment support for fair creature based decks? No? K.
It has little to do with Twin or Hogaak.
- You said that Jitte would be fair AT BEST. This is what most people would disagree with. The card might be fair, but certainly has the potential to be a lot better than fair. Excluding the possibility that it might be better than fair shows your underestimation of the card and gets people triggered.
- You thought that you would need to connect with Jitte, while Jitte is the notorious exception that doesn't need to connect. This shows that you probably never played with or against it, while you go all in advocating an unban. This gets more people triggered.
As a former extended player, yes I've played with and against Jitte more times than I could begin to recount. I know all about how it works, what it can do and what it doesn't do. I prolly had swords on the brain while typing earlier and basically everyone here is a veteran player; cut me a LITTLE slack.

Jitte IS fair at best, same way SFM is fair at best. It does nothing broken, I challenge you to even describe a hypothetical worst case scenario where Jitte does something that is over the top. And I am still waiting for an example of playable equipment to support fair creature based decks. You can't give me one because the only card that could possibly perform that function is banned.

So I guess Modern is the format where equipment doesnt exist?? Whatever reasons Jitte was put on the initial ban list have long since expired / become irrelevant. JTMS, SFM, Jitte are all fair cards that should be in the modern pool.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Equipment was barely played at all in Modern, but with Stoneforge Mystic, I don't think you can say that anymore. There are several Stoneforge Mystic decks popping up - I've seen UW, Bant, and Jeskai. Batterskull, Sword of Feast and Famine, and Sword of Fire and Ice all see a tiny bit of Modern play now.
Sfm certainly opened the door for equips. Just a few days ago, a guy bought my semi-played Sofai. I had that on sale for years, only now that sfm is in the meta that it got sold-- I thank Sfm, great goddess of equipment. Image

About Jitte if it ever goes unbanned I can borrow the two that my friend has since he's not using his merfolk deck right now. Although I doubt jitte would ever become unban, the equipment printed to kill it Manriki-Gusari is not very effective, because most of the time people could just kill the creature in response before Manriki could be equipped.

As for our good friend Hogaak. He has found a home in legacy. Recently top 8'd GP Atlanta - 1022 players. https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23176&d=359352&f=LE
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Lear_the_cat wrote:
1 year ago
Thank you for your answers about Mox Opal, guys.
As I can see now Urza decks are a problem and I can see 2 solutions: to kill Urza decks or to slow them down so much slower but powerfull artifact hate can match up in speed.
In first occasion we can loose artifact archetype att all. Thanks to extremly powerfull new planeswalkers from War of the Spark and MH. (Karn, the Great Creator)
In second occasion we can just ban Mox Opal so we will slow down Urza decks but they will still be powerfull enough to compete in current modern metagame.

Coming back to first problem of Urza decks. I mentioned cheap and extremly powerfull planeswalkers and I think they will become next huge problem in next few years after current imbalanced cards from MH will be banned. And there're several reasons for that:
There're mostly no direct answers for planeswalkers in most colors that can be maindeckable;
Their toughness with their + ability is always above Lightning Bolt range and their - ability gives you value so you trade same 1-2 with Bolt;
Most of planeswalkers have built in defensive abilities to protect themselves from creatures.

So I don't think that banning cards with current Wizard's politic of printing busted cards is a reasonable descision. Better just unban other broken cards from ban list and let metagame evolve on it's own and most people won't be angry of banned foiled favourite decks.
I think it's time for Modern to die and become like Legacy because there's no real solution to escape rat race that Wizards created.
You seem to have already decided that the Urza (or Opal) decks were a problem before you even asked here. Urza decks are NOT a problem. It's too early to even consider them as such. I've outlined their weaknesses multiple times in this thread, incorporate them, learn how the decks operate. That's the solution to the "problem", iterate and test, not banning a card every time a new deck comes out.

I'm not even comment on that las paragraph of yours.

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Post by Lear_the_cat » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Lear_the_cat wrote:
1 year ago
Thank you for your answers about Mox Opal, guys.
As I can see now Urza decks are a problem and I can see 2 solutions: to kill Urza decks or to slow them down so much slower but powerfull artifact hate can match up in speed.
In first occasion we can loose artifact archetype att all. Thanks to extremly powerfull new planeswalkers from War of the Spark and MH. (Karn, the Great Creator)
In second occasion we can just ban Mox Opal so we will slow down Urza decks but they will still be powerfull enough to compete in current modern metagame.

Coming back to first problem of Urza decks. I mentioned cheap and extremly powerfull planeswalkers and I think they will become next huge problem in next few years after current imbalanced cards from MH will be banned. And there're several reasons for that:
There're mostly no direct answers for planeswalkers in most colors that can be maindeckable;
Their toughness with their + ability is always above Lightning Bolt range and their - ability gives you value so you trade same 1-2 with Bolt;
Most of planeswalkers have built in defensive abilities to protect themselves from creatures.

So I don't think that banning cards with current Wizard's politic of printing busted cards is a reasonable descision. Better just unban other broken cards from ban list and let metagame evolve on it's own and most people won't be angry of banned foiled favourite decks.
I think it's time for Modern to die and become like Legacy because there's no real solution to escape rat race that Wizards created.
You seem to have already decided that the Urza (or Opal) decks were a problem before you even asked here. Urza decks are NOT a problem. It's too early to even consider them as such. I've outlined their weaknesses multiple times in this thread, incorporate them, learn how the decks operate. That's the solution to the "problem", iterate and test, not banning a card every time a new deck comes out.

I'm not even comment on that las paragraph of yours.
But why do you think that Urza decks don't have answers for that? And you didn't mention that you need hate that stops Urza decks from operating in different game zones while Urza deck just need basic disenchant. So in the end they just have to waste much less slots in sideboard while you have use a lot.
I agree that it's a bit too early but tendencies and numbers of Urza decks are pretty clear to understant in what modern metagame will evolve.
Btw don't forget that you have to fight not only powerfull Urza decks but Burn, Tron, Jund and other grindy and proactive decks while you're playing deck with white. It's almost impossible task.

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Post by Depian » 1 year ago

We don't have data to back up the powerlevel of the different Urza builds in tthe current metagame but it seems like most players perceive those as the best decks you can currently play in Modern. Does that make them banworthy? No, there has to be more than "this deck is the best" in order to warrant a ban, and in the past it comes down mostly to winrate%

When Hogaak was alive, Urza ThopterSword decks had a higher winrate than Hogaak so it was expected that after the Hogaak ban, those decks would keep being very powerful but so far, the way games developed wasn't something egregious that people hate

With the release of Eldraine, the deck has got some new tools and lists with Paradoxical Outcome are a bit more obnoxious to play agains't (who would have guessed that Stony Silence would not be GG vs an artifact deck), now people are starting to point their finger at Urza (but we barely have any data about those so we have to gather it)

I think what happens here is that the ThopterSword configuration was very strong and powerful but the gameplay patterns were much more reasonable (even if it had an insane winrate), losing to it felt like they won because they grinded out better so it seems a fair game and nobody calls for bans. Now Paradoxical Outcome variants are way more combo oriented and losing against it feels like playing vs a Vintage deck, therefore people start asking for bans

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

I copyed this from reddit and it's my opinion too: "... with that preface out of the way....Fast mana, fast wins and combo kills that take a lot of game actions and produce insane board states are all huge red flags for things that WotC will at some point take action against. I don't know if the Paradoxical decks need something banned, but it seems like it does the kinds of things that have gotten cards banned in the past and that is what people are picking up on...."

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Post by ElectricEye » 1 year ago

http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/3 ... -Them.html

More ban-mania from scg writers. Writing about the Urza Outcome deck, Ben Friedman says:
"It's going to take a bit to fix this format. You can't stick Emry back in the bag, as the Paradoxical Outcome deck is still likely the best thing going in Modern even without this one-mana recursion and card selection engine-in-a-card. (The fact that this is a legitimate sentiment about this deck should be enough to convince anyone on the fence about Urza Outcome's bannability.)

You could ban Urza. You could ban Mox Opal. You could ban Emry. You could (maybe should) ban all three, eventually. But the wheels have firmly come off the train."
And later ends with:
"What a mess. There's going to be another ban. Play this deck until it happens."

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Post by Arkmer » 1 year ago

I would guess that this type of talk is just to drum up emotions. There is no data to support a single ban, much less three.

I still think the deck is probably manageable, but it's a tough manageable.
I've boxed my cards up for long term storage.

Maybe I will return... Maybe not.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Emry might eat an emergency ban. It took everyone 3 seconds to understand Emry would be way overpowered for Modern when she was spoiled yet nobody at the dev team at Wizards can't. That is the real problem. You don't need extensive testing to understand Emry is completely broken so the fact they don't test for Modern is not an excuse here. You know when putting the affinity mechanic on a card it will scream 'eternal formats'.

Leylines back into maindeck I guess or quit Modern for a few months AGAIN!

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Post by Thenarus » 1 year ago

If Hogaak didn't eat an emergency ban, there's no way anything from the Urza decks will. Early results seem to suggest that these are the decks to beat, but it's too early to be calling for bans (yet).

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
Emry might eat an emergency ban. It took everyone 3 seconds to understand Emry would be way overpowered for Modern when she was spoiled yet nobody at the dev team at Wizards can't. That is the real problem. You don't need extensive testing to understand Emry is completely broken so the fact they don't test for Modern is not an excuse here. You know when putting the affinity mechanic on a card it will scream 'eternal formats'.

Leylines back into maindeck I guess or quit Modern for a few months AGAIN!
Leylines of what and to beat what exactly? Emry is extremely strong, but it's no Hogaak, Bolt or Push her...

And because I'm too lazy to retype everything I've said numerous times, I'll just copy paste someone from reddit:

"For Urza's Outcome: Lavinia, Chalice on 0, Deafening Silence, any anti-storm cards in general. ~Pithing Needle~ Phyrexian Revoker on Urza is huge. Plague Engineers are definitely worth bringing in. Illness in the Ranks/Night of Soul's Betrayal is even better since it kills both Servos and Thopters. Linvala Keeper of Silence is really good if you can cast her early."

"Rakdos charm is great if you're already aggressive as just a huge burn spell (just keep in mind Sai's sac ability), and Unmoored Ego on Urza makes the rest of their deck rather mediocre as long as you have a way of dealing with their post board Tezzerets."

"[...] Stony/Ouphe is surprisingly not amazing against the Outcome builds.[...] Kataki is way better, as it essentially invalidates Urza and can cause a blowout if they go for the turn 3 token spam play. Manglehorn also makes them play more fairly."

"The only dedicated artifact destruction spell I think is good enough is exactly Shatterstorm. Hurkyll's Recall is an absolute joke so don't even think about it. Your own EEs/Ratchet Bombs on 0 can be a blowout too, and only being 2 mana I think it's the best sweeper against them. Mystical Dispute/Jace's Defeat are honestly the best cards at stopping their payoffs."

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Post by Wraithpk » 1 year ago

So a bunch of narrow cards that people aren't already playing? As a UW player, the only one of those I would play is Pithing Needle, but that does nothing against Urza's construct or Sai/Saheeli's tokens.

The bottom line is that the deck has very few weaknesses, if any. It's not weak to graveyard hate. It's not weak to Stoney Silence or point artifact removal. Creature removal can be good, but they'll still get some value before you get to use it, and if their payoff is Saheeli it does nothing. Counters can be good, but they can overload you with must-counter spells, so something will eventually get through.

So what's actually good against the deck? Burn if they have an early Eidolon? Shadow decks if they have a really good first few turns? That's kind of the problem with the deck. At least with the Whirza deck it was weak to graveyard hate, but this new build is not.
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ubr Grixis Shadow ubr
uwg Bant Stoneblade uwg
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