[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Its right to not jump at Team event results. Its less right to dismiss them when they do not reflect diversity within the winners meta, when the day 2 DID reflect diversity.

I think (and it will take GP's and some Modern data dumps to prove it) that Urza decks are an issue, can UW save us? We will see.
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Post by TheAnnihilator » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
People have heard it from me before - it is indeed Urza that needs a ban. But then WotC will probably ban Mox Opal, then have to later on ban Urza, Lord High Artificer and Mox Amber, while unbanning Green Sun's Zenith. This seems to be the predictable outcome of all of this. I haven't tested the Paradoxical version yet because my Mox Ambers haven't come yet, but I had a super close match in Round 4 of Las Vegas when I played Hogaak against Outcome and this was before Emry. :grin:

On another note, that's cool that your local player got to upgrade his deck with Urza. I always love it when some people stick to certain decks they love and eventually they get a tool that pushes it to Tier 1 (or beyond in this case). I've always loved Thopter/Sword ever since playing it in Extended, but rarely had the guts to try it until Urza was printed.
I'm lucky, because this particular LGS is what I might describe as casual-competitive. Everyone's playing to win, and tuning for the local meta, but nobody audibles to the default "best deck". Most everyone plays an archetype, such as the Whirza guy. I'm the resident UW/Esper Control player, there's a guy on Jund, a few different Grixis reps, etc. Everyone plays the deck they love and metagames towards the local scene rather than switching decks week-to-week. It's sweet. Just this week I got to be the guy who got a huge upgrade and wrecked shop (Drown in the Loch and Mystic Sanctuary). It's just how it goes. :)

A while ago we had a few people on UR Pheonix, not because it was a great meta deck, but because a few people happen to love UR spells type decks.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

TheAnnihilator wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
People have heard it from me before - it is indeed Urza that needs a ban. But then WotC will probably ban Mox Opal, then have to later on ban Urza, Lord High Artificer and Mox Amber, while unbanning Green Sun's Zenith. This seems to be the predictable outcome of all of this. I haven't tested the Paradoxical version yet because my Mox Ambers haven't come yet, but I had a super close match in Round 4 of Las Vegas when I played Hogaak against Outcome and this was before Emry. :grin:

On another note, that's cool that your local player got to upgrade his deck with Urza. I always love it when some people stick to certain decks they love and eventually they get a tool that pushes it to Tier 1 (or beyond in this case). I've always loved Thopter/Sword ever since playing it in Extended, but rarely had the guts to try it until Urza was printed.
I'm lucky, because this particular LGS is what I might describe as casual-competitive. Everyone's playing to win, and tuning for the local meta, but nobody audibles to the default "best deck". Most everyone plays an archetype, such as the Whirza guy. I'm the resident UW/Esper Control player, there's a guy on Jund, a few different Grixis reps, etc. Everyone plays the deck they love and metagames towards the local scene rather than switching decks week-to-week. It's sweet. Just this week I got to be the guy who got a huge upgrade and wrecked shop (Drown in the Loch and Mystic Sanctuary). It's just how it goes. :)

A while ago we had a few people on UR Pheonix, not because it was a great meta deck, but because a few people happen to love UR spells type decks.
I wish I could metagame like that, but the meta at my LGS changes too much. It literally doesn't matter what I play because I could run into anything. There are a few main stays the past 3 weeks, like a Burn player, 2 Whirza, and a Tron player, but everyone else switches or don't play that week while someone else does.

It makes it super tough to metagame. I was testing Niv-Mizzet and it seemed to have game against Jund type strategies and Burn, along with several decks trying to grind. I ended up facing Mono Blue Tron (which admittedly he has been there recently), Soulherder (which should be a good matchup, but my deck is more fragile), and Bogles (rarely ever see this deck and it never top 8s here if it is seen). Also saw Scales for the first time since Urza came out, lol, but lucked out there.
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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Well, I have a good answer if Whirza or Urza Outcome is a problem, play Narset, Parter of Veils :)
Assuming they don't just attack and kill her with a 9/9 Construct token. :\
In a shell that can profitably run Narset (meaning both be able to cast it, take advantage of her minus ability and leverage her static) like UW control, the 9/9 should not be a big problem to deal with. among 2 sweepers, 5-6 spot removals, and 11-12 counters resolving and protecting Narset for the 1-2 turns you need to get an overwhelming advantage over Urza Outcome decks should not be a problem.

If the Urza decks had no resiliency whatsoever then they wouldn't be great decks, but especially UWx based control decks have a lot of game against them. Sai is a much bigger issue there than Urza.
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

What is the upside of printing Emry? What is the upside of reintroducing the affinity-mechanic on a single card in the entire set?

My biggest issue when playing vs Urza is post-sideboard the matchup becomes random because they have too many cards that win on the spot if not answered.

You need:
Spot removal to deal with Urza, Engineer and Emry
Artifact removal to deal with their prison cards like Ensaring Bridge, Mystic Forge
Graveyard removal to deal with Sword of the Meek and Engineer/Emry
An answer for his planewalkers
Answer his Foundry and Construct of they can still race you
On top of that they play a bunch of silver bullets they can find with Whire so you also have to deal with that

Destroy effects suck if not combined with graveyard removal. Then there is the big chance you have the wrong answers in play or in your hand. You want to board out spot removal but you can't and next game you sit with 2 Path to Exile in hand while they kill you with a Thopter/Sword combo. Then you have Stoney Silence in play and Leyline of the Void but they kill you with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas or Urza. Then you have graveyard removal and spot removal for Urza but they still beat you down with the construct. You have Stoney Silence in play but Urza still makes a ton of mana. Its too much to deal with.

The problem is you need to fight them on so many different angles that post-sideboard your answers are too width so a lot of the times you end up with the wrong answers at the wrong time. But everything they do must be answered on the spot or they take over the game as soon as turn 3. This is what makes the deck overpowered.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

If you want to grind a deck that's built to out grind everything you've already lost. Play relevant disruption: Stony is a big problem for Whirza, Kataki for PO versions, Play needle effects ( they were good before and are even better now), Rule of Law effects and narset %$#% on PO versions. L

astly, present a clock, you cant expect your silver bullets to last or win you the game on the spot, same as Tron. If that was the case the deck would be awful.

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Not so easy. In stream Kanister laughed about stony silence on opponents turn. I am not a expert, but it seems it is not such a big problem like many of us think. Sai, Saheeli, urza don't care about stony and it doesn't Stopp paradoxical too

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
Not so easy. In stream Kanister laughed about stony silence on opponents turn. I am not a expert, but it seems it is not such a big problem like many of us think. Sai, Saheeli, urza don't care about stony and it doesn't Stopp paradoxical too
And that's why I specifically mentioned Stony for Whirza and Kataki/Rule of Law effects for PO versions Hells an early Ratchet Bomb/Explosives for 0 are more often than not crippling for the PO versions.

The deck has weaknesses, exploit them, don't play to its strengths...

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

But this deck change fast even strategy is similar. Some weeks ago whirza, now outcome... So their is no good and clear answer and this italentz tryed to say. Play stony versus outcome, that's only ok... Play cards which stop them drawing extra and you face whirza, it's useless. No clear answer. Use ratchet, so easy comeback with emry or engineer

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
But this deck change fast even strategy is similar. Some weeks ago whirza, now outcome... So their is no good and clear answer and this italentz tryed to say. Play stony versus outcome, that's only ok... Play cards which stop them drawing extra and you face whirza, it's useless. No clear answer. Use ratchet, so easy comeback with emry or engineer
Stony is good against Affinity, Scales AND Whirza. If you have them in your meta you'll always play a couple.
EE/Ratchet Bomb are great against Affinity, Scales AND PO and in general are great catch all removal.
Plague Engineer is GREAT against Affinity, Scales, Whirza AND PO. And great against several other strategies.
Narset is GREAT against PO, as well as other Xerox-y decks and Control.
Rule of Law/Deafening Silence is ABSURD against PO, as well as great for creature toolbox decks to slow down combo and control decks.
Aggressive and big mana strategies are effective against Whirza and PO. GDS (or 4C or JDS) is great against both and a great deck overall

Stop %$#% whining that the deck (or archetype) is unbeatable when it doesn't have almost any result to it's name. For those about to say "But the modern challenge!", a UW stoneforge deck was also in the finals, as well as a UR Thing.

There are plenty of solutions to choose from, whatever preferred strategy you're playing. The only version that might be a problem at this very moment is the Jeskai Ascendancy version of the deck, which again the problem isn't Opal, but the namesake card(s). You're telling me that a card that includes:

1. All creatures get +1/+1
2. All creatures untap
3. Loot.

Is less broken than Opal?

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

Serious question: Could Jitte come off the ban list now? Before you auto-ignore me hear me out. Any card that requires a critter to connect to the opponent's face is a very tall ask in Modern. I just don't see decks using Jitte in any way unfairly in today's Modern. Two mana to cast at sorc speed, and 2 more to equip is a HUGE investment. You risk a potential game ending blowout right there. Even if it connects and you get your Jitte counters, the game is far from locked up.

The card is fair AT BEST. The decks that would benefit the most from it the most are the more fair creature / token based strats. Controlly combo-y decks have plenty enough toys in the format already and I doubt UW SFM builds would be imapcted much if at all.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Serious question: Could Jitte come off the ban list now? Before you auto-ignore me hear me out. Any card that requires a critter to connect to the opponent's face is a very tall ask in Modern. I just don't see decks using Jitte in any way unfairly in today's Modern. Two mana to cast at sorc speed, and 2 more to equip is a HUGE investment. You risk a potential game ending blowout right there. Even if it connects and you get your Jitte counters, the game is far from locked up.

The card is fair AT BEST. The decks that would benefit the most from it the most are the more fair creature / token based strats. Controlly combo-y decks have plenty enough toys in the format already and I doubt UW SFM builds would be imapcted much if at all.
I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no way that Umezawa's Jitte can come off the ban list. Creature decks lose to another creature deck that gets Jitte online first. People like to bring up big mana like Tron or Titanshift. Control can deal with it and Combo is fine. But do we really want to base creature on creature battle by who gets Jitte first? Also Stoneforge Mystic is in no way, shape or form, okay with Jitte in the format.

Let me give you an idea of how good Jitte is. I ran Combo in Standard during Jitte times. Tooth and Nail, Heartbeat of Spring, various BUG Gifts Ungiven decks. Jitte still caused a problem. I ended up main boarding 6 artifact killing cards for it. Yes, I main boarded 6 artifact killing cards. I should also mention that I was the top player at my LGS at the time (24-28 players on any given FNM). It was bad at dealing with Jitte. Luckily for me, my decks were enough to pull me through anyway. After a while, I decided to buy 4 Rat's Nest Precons that had Jitte in them. I put 4 Jitte in my deck. Yes, I put 4 Jitte in my deck! Tooth and Nail wins with Kiki-Jiki copying Darksteel Colossus, Heartbeat wins with Maga, Traitor of Immortals, and BUG Gifts wins with multiple Kokusho, the Evening Stars. None of these utilized Jitte well at all, but it was necessary. Suddenly, I was not even close to losing. Matches were way easier.

Now I realize that Modern is a much, much stronger format. That's why we can have Standard monsters like Bitterblossom, Jace, TMS, and Stoneforge Mystic. But I doubt that WotC wants to push people away from creatures, so cards like Jitte and even Punishing Fire probably won't come off any time soon in my opinion. Obviously I could care less if Jitte is in. All it does is make an Aggro clock slightly quicker and more resilient, which my big Mana decks and my Combo decks don't care much about. But there certainly are players who do care about these strategies.

*I hope that's explained well without being condescending. I never want to sound like I'm auto ruling any card out. To be honest, Wizards should have started with a no ban policy and slowly weeded out stuff like Mental Misstep, Eye of Ugin, and Skullclamp.
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Post by Arkmer » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Any card that requires a critter to connect to the opponent's face
[mention]robertleva[/mention], I think you're misreading the card. The creature does not need to hit the opponent, it needs to do any combat damage to anything. I hope that subtle difference is all it takes to convince you it should remain banned.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Serious question: Could Jitte come off the ban list now?
my merfolk playing friend had two in his deck. We played with jitte for years in legacy, this card would be broken in modern. And will most likely make sfm increase further in price. Arkmer already said it, the creature it is equipped to only needs to do combat damage to anything.
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Post by Erian Ignis » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I wish I could metagame like that, but the meta at my LGS changes too much. It literally doesn't matter what I play because I could run into anything. There are a few main stays the past 3 weeks, like a Burn player, 2 Whirza, and a Tron player, but everyone else switches or don't play that week while someone else does.

It makes it super tough to metagame. I was testing Niv-Mizzet and it seemed to have game against Jund type strategies and Burn, along with several decks trying to grind. I ended up facing Mono Blue Tron (which admittedly he has been there recently), Soulherder (which should be a good matchup, but my deck is more fragile), and Bogles (rarely ever see this deck and it never top 8s here if it is seen). Also saw Scales for the first time since Urza came out, lol, but lucked out there.
How has the Niv Mizzet deck been treating you? Would love to hear more. Probably does not have a place right now with all the Urza decks around. I think it is more of a local choice unless some conditions are met for it?
Arkmer wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Any card that requires a critter to connect to the opponent's face
robertleva, I think you're misreading the card. The creature does not need to hit the opponent, it needs to do any combat damage to anything. I hope that subtle difference is all it takes to convince you it should remain banned.
For the longest of times I thought it needed to deadl direct damage. It needing any combat damage makes me now understand the animosity towards Jitte.

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Post by Wraithpk » 1 year ago

Jitte is a lot like DRS, it just does too much. If you've ever played/watched Legacy games with Jitte, you realize how much it warps the battlefield around itself. I don't think Jitte would be ok in Modern by itself, and SFM being legal makes it far less ok.
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

I'm hearing a lot of anecdotal stories about how great jitte was back in the day. I just fail to see any non fair deck using even using Jitte, let alone "oppressing the format" with it. We WANT to help fair decks don't we? THis is a card that helps fair decks. UW SFM decks MIGHT use it in addition to Bskull. Bskull is going to be the primary target most often.

It would be the Maverick type of decks that would actually get a boost with Jitte.

EDIT: And holy crap, how can this be the same forum that says TWIN should be unbanned. Talk about double standards! Just be honest with yourselves, you want your pet decks to thrive and you don't actually care about format diversity / health. That's not a dig at any one in particular just an observation of the forum in general.
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Post by frederico » 1 year ago

try playing against jitte with any creature based or aggressive strategy (revolt zoo, soulherder, affinity, scales, goblins, merfolk, chord and company variants, burn, dredge, humans, spirits, infect, prowess, elves) and let me know how that promotion of diversity in fair decks goes for you
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Post by Greatest Gargadon » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
I'm hearing a lot of anecdotal stories about how great jitte was back in the day. I just fail to see any non fair deck using even using Jitte, let alone "oppressing the format" with it. We WANT to help fair decks don't we? THis is a card that helps fair decks. UW SFM decks MIGHT use it in addition to Bskull. Bskull is going to be the primary target most often.

It would be the Maverick type of decks that would actually get a boost with Jitte.

EDIT: And holy crap, how can this be the same forum that says TWIN should be unbanned. Talk about double standards! Just be honest with yourselves, you want your pet decks to thrive and you don't actually care about format diversity / health. That's not a dig at any one in particular just an observation of the forum in general.
Have you ever played vs jitte, or with it? All it'll do is drive wide decks/aggressive decks out of the format, make big mana better by proxy, and then everyone will complain about that. SFM decks will absolutely use it, fetching jitte and slapping it on an evasive creature to grind games to a halt with t3feri backing it up. I shudder to think of the slogfest meta we'll have. I'll play against anything, I don't care, but Jitte won't fix your gripes with the format.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

frederico wrote:
1 year ago
try playing against jitte with any creature based or aggressive strategy (revolt zoo, soulherder, affinity, scales, goblins, merfolk, chord and company variants, burn, dredge, humans, spirits, infect, prowess, elves) and let me know how that promotion of diversity in fair decks goes for you
So the match you are describing is two creature based decks fighting each other with powerful artifacts playing a big role? Yep sign me up. It's not like we currently have a good modern Jitte equivalent that Jitte would push out of the format. We literally have no equipment to support fair creature decks in modern.
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Post by frederico » 1 year ago

so you are telling me your dream vision of modern creature decks is whoever finds and plays jitte first deletes the other player from the game
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

frederico wrote:
1 year ago
so you are telling me your dream vision of modern creature decks is whoever finds and plays jitte first deletes the other player from the game
As if it were that simple. Modern has quite a bit of removal and ways to interact with / nullify both artifacts and creatures. This meta in particular is begging for artifact hate, which Jitte gets caught in. You are describing interactive Magic. We NEED more of that in Modern and we need to be really vocal about it. No more uninteractive graveyard format.
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Post by ModernDefector » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Any card that requires a critter to connect to the opponent's face is a very tall ask in Modern.
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
I'm hearing a lot of anecdotal stories about how great jitte was back in the day. I just fail to see any non fair deck using even using Jitte, let alone "oppressing the format" with it.
...
And holy crap, how can this be the same forum that says TWIN should be unbanned. Talk about double standards! Just be honest with yourselves, you want your pet decks to thrive and you don't actually care about format diversity / health.
Yes, instead listen to the card-appraising skills of the guy whose understanding of Jitte is based on the fact that it has to deal combat damage to the opponent ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°
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Post by Wraithpk » 1 year ago

[mention]robertleva[/mention] Have you actually seen Jitte in play? I'm not trying to be rude, because I felt the same way you did before seeing it in play. It seems like such an innocuous card, how could people be so afraid of a card like that? Until you actually see what it does in a game. Jitte warps a game around itself. It wrecks other creature decks because it either kills their creatures or makes it impossible to block profitably. Creature aggro mirrors literally become just who draws their Jitte first. It out-lifegains aggressive decks even more than Batterskull can. You can kill the Batterskull germ to make the SFM player invest a bunch of mana to get it back, but Jitte you can just equip to something else for 2 mana. It also races against big mana or combo, and protects the equipped creature from damage-based removal, potentially giving it +4/+4 per turn.

Again, I'll compare it to DRS. You look at DRS, and see, oh, it ramps like a mana dork, or shocks your opponent, or gains 2 life, what's the big deal? The big deal is that it does ALL of that, in one card, for 1 mana. Jitte kills creatures, pumps your creatures to race or protect from lethal damage, and gains up to 4 life per turn, all for a pretty cheap mana investment. It's a swiss-army knife card that can dominate the board if it even connects once. Add in that we now have SFM to fetch it up. Yes, they would absolutely play it alongside BS, and they would almost certainly fetch it up before the BS. Legacy SFM decks almost always get the Jitte first, and Modern would be no different.
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