[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Bearscape
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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
By the way the phrase "can win out of nowhere" is overused and deeply wrong. Twin won "out of nowhere", infect still does.

If any version of an Urza deck has Urza on the battlefied, it doesn't win out of nowhere, the most broken card in the deck is right there.
I mean, Urza, PO, dead you is a single turn sequence oftentimes

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Post by Wraithpk » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I heard some people saying Whirza is a better Twin, notably Jeff Hoogland and in here, WraithPK. Now, I know Hoogie is pretty extreme in his opinions and many of that he says make little to none sense.
To be honest, I thought this was a wrong assessment all that time. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. Probably I was a little bit wrong, it made sense.
But! After seeing the new paradoxical outcome deck with Emry, I have to say, it's one of the best Modern decks I have ever seen. Maybe it's power level is acceptable or it will be hated out, sure.
The reason why I say it's better Splinter Twin, even the Thopter/Sword version, is that:

1) It has an infinite combo it can land even earlier than Twin could (turn 3 is possible)
2) It has tutors to find its combo pieces, which Twin never had
3) Its combo pieces are still just good on their own even if you're not going infinite. Assembling Thopter/Sword without an Urza is often enough to win games on its own, and Urza also is capable of winning games on his own. Twin's combo pieces were a (mostly) useless 4 mana enchantment, and crappy 3 mana 1/4s or 2/1 flyers.
4) It has interaction to slow down or lock out other decks. It's possibly even better than Twin at this, since if you can't beat an Ensnaring Bridge or Damping Sphere you might just get hard locked. If you're not getting locked, Twin's interaction was probably better, but anyone who played Twin knows that Twin never was able to tightly control a game.
5) It has a very good mid to late game value/grind game, just like Twin did. Twin used to be able to tempo you out with creature beats, and bolt snap bolts. Whirza can just out-grind you with Thopter/Sword making thopters, or Urza drawing cards and making large construct tokens, or Tezzeret making 5/5s.

So both decks do kind of the same thing, but I think Whirza just does almost everything better than Twin did. The infinite combo is 3 pieces vs. 2 for Twin, but I think that's offset by the fact that Whirza's combo pieces aren't just dead and/or anemic cards on their own, and they have tutors to find the pieces they need.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Whirza is more robust, harder to profitability disrupt, requires narrow answers to disrupt, can win a turn earlier, can tutor its pieces, and has a significantly better series of backup plans that all attack on different axes. Whirza is better than Twin in nearly every measurable regard.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

LeoTzu wrote:
1 year ago
I think Emry has all of the makings of a card that has the potential to be busted in Modern.

• Cost reducer? Check.
• Card selection enabler? Check.
• Puts cards in graveyard? Check.
• Interacts with graveyard? Check.
• Part of a game-winning combo? Check.

Does that mean she WILL be busted? Nah. She might be totally fine in Modern. Only time will tell, but I wouldn't be surprised if she leads to something completely bananas in the next few months.
Agreed. It's really hard to tell just how busted a card is, because all top-tier Modern decks are packed with busted things. But she's definitely on-par with that level of brokenness we should expect from top-tier Modern strategies.

Re: Twin and Whirza
This is just an odd series of comparisons and I'm not sure why people are making them. Although both decks are unquestionably powerful in their respective eras, they are doing such different things it's hard to compare. Twin is a tempo/control deck with a backup combo plan based around instant-speed interaction through creatures and instants. Whirza is a midrange/prison deck with a backup combo plan based around mostly sorcery-speed payoffs through artifacts and the graveyard. The only significant area they definitely overlap is that they were/are secretly (not-so-secretly) the "best" decks of their respective times. They are also the kinds of decks pros, spikes, and grinders enjoy: low variance, high velocity, high ceiling decks with busted openings that still play a versatile, grindy game.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Re: Twin and Whirza
This is just an odd series of comparisons and I'm not sure why people are making them. Although both decks are unquestionably powerful in their respective eras, they are doing such different things it's hard to compare.
They're really not. Philosophically, they have the same goals and are trying to accomplish the same thing. They both utilize combos in order to win, and rely on literal or figurative "locks" to stall until they can accomplish this. Both have backup plans that are not strong enough to stand on their own, but complement the combo win nicely. It just so happens that massive Constructs and an army of Thopters is better than anemic Snap beats and handful of Bolts.

While each accomplish their goals in slightly different ways, fundamentally, they are trying to do the same things. Whether Whirza is comparatively stronger now than Twin was in 2015 is hard to judge, but I absolutely and unequivocally believe that Whirza is considerably more powerful than Twin would be today. Twin is just too easy to disrupt using tons of maindeckable cards, in addition to a plethora of dedicated hate available. Additionally, the backup plans are as equally mediocre now as they were then.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I was thinking about this comparisor for a lot of times, where I did watch the Whirza deck play out. It's kind of different. Ultimately, I made the comparison at a pure power level standpoint. In that aspect, I think Twin was/is/would be just a tad better overall, if not the same.
What does this even mean? What are you basing this on? Are you implying that it would be the same, or more powerful in today's meta? A meta that is objectively faster and more powerful than the 2015 meta?

Since you still have me blocked, maybe someone can quote my previous reply a few posts up that quickly and succinctly makes that comparison.

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Post by Wraithpk » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago

Re: Twin and Whirza
This is just an odd series of comparisons and I'm not sure why people are making them. Although both decks are unquestionably powerful in their respective eras, they are doing such different things it's hard to compare. Twin is a tempo/control deck with a backup combo plan based around instant-speed interaction through creatures and instants. Whirza is a midrange/prison deck with a backup combo plan based around mostly sorcery-speed payoffs through artifacts and the graveyard. The only significant area they definitely overlap is that they were/are secretly (not-so-secretly) the "best" decks of their respective times. They are also the kinds of decks pros, spikes, and grinders enjoy: low variance, high velocity, high ceiling decks with busted openings that still play a versatile, grindy game.
You answered your own question right there as to why people make the comparison. Both are decks with a fair main gameplan, and an infinite combo backup plan. Now, their fair gameplans are different; Twin was a tempo deck, while Whirza is midrange/prison, as you said, but the ideas behind what the decks are doing are fundamentally the same. I think the main comparison is how good the fair gameplans of both of these decks are, that's what sets them apart from other combo decks and makes them comparable to each other. Like, you can kill people in Cheeri0s by suiting up your Puresteel Paladins and beating down, but that's not really a good fair gameplan, it's just kind of a last resort.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

To be fair, Whirza is a Combo deck. The "prison" elements are really the backup. And I'm saying this, having talked to many other players about it. Going to 4 recent MCQs the past month and a half have given me some perspective (out of my 3 person team, 1 friend winning and the other top 4ing, both with Whirza). The general consensus is that Whirza is the best deck, but not by much. I personally think it's by more than people think. But I digress. Most players that I've talked to think of Whirza as a Combo deck first, then Prison or Midrange Value. This is good for me, as a Combo player. Decks like Birthing Pod and Kiki Chord were tougher for me to play amazingly because I would often try to jam the Combo even if I knew it wasn't in my best interests percentage-wise. With Whirza, it IS the plan.

If you want a Prison deck, there is always Grixis Artifacts, a similar deck with none of the combo pieces and more hate like Chalice of the Void and Engineered Explosives. I forgot the name of the creator, who won an SCG Classic with it, and named the deck the "Grindfather." (as I remember) But that deck is not as good in my opinion and the opinion of many who I've asked at these tournaments.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I was thinking about this comparisor for a lot of times, where I did watch the Whirza deck play out. It's kind of different. Ultimately, I made the comparison at a pure power level standpoint. In that aspect, I think Twin was/is/would be just a tad better overall, if not the same.
What does this even mean? What are you basing this on? Are you implying that it would be the same, or more powerful in today's meta? A meta that is objectively faster and more powerful than the 2015 meta?

Since you still have me blocked, maybe someone can quote my previous reply a few posts up that quickly and succinctly makes that comparison.
If Twin suddenly became unbanned. I would just be bringing the usual 2 spellskite + some removal and that's it. The new fry I assume would be effective, because the creatures that twin likes to enchant are blue.

Whirza is much more difficult to dissect. They have bridge, have ways to protect and bring back the bridge. I need both gy removal + artifact removal + maybe removal to kill urza + and at least one needle effect for the thopter foundry or urza - will needle the one I feel more threatening depending on the board state. And soon they will have another powerful piece in Emry. Not overpowered, but certainly it is "deck to beat" status.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
text wall about Twin
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Cfusion asked me 2 things.
1) First one, if I believe Twin would be stronger or the same as Modern is faster nowadays.
2) Second one, if I believe Twin would be stronger or the same as Modern is stronger nowadays.

Let's analyze those two(just my opinion).
1)
Would Twin be fine now that Modern is faster?
Well, it's not that simple. First off, with the Looting ban, the meta is slower than half a year ago.
While that may feel true, when that explicit data was collected, that was before

Second point, as long as the meta does not have a broken Hogaak deck, Twin can withstand every fast deck and win against every fast deck or have a decent matchup against them.
What fast decks do we have now anyways? Do we even have decks that win on Turn 3, other than Neoform? I mean, mono red prowess? It's weaker without Looting and Twin can handle it just fine. Dredge? Same. Burn? It's just burn. And it kills on turn 4. Humans? It wins on turn 4.5 on average and Twin would have a decent matchup against it, because Humans can't effectively and consistently answer the combo. Spirits? Not a problem for Twin. The Amulet deck? Great matchup for Twin. Neoform? 2 Spell snares in the mainboard, remands are lights off, and 2 FoN in the sideboard, not such a bad matchup. Scales affinity or regular affinity? Both decent for twin. They don't run removal anyways. The Probe-less Infect deck? Certainly a good matchup, again. Storm? Good matchup also. Tron? Also, a good matchup, especially game 1.
Now, all of those decks would incorporate some extra cards to fight Twin. I didn't include this logic in my previous answer, so I am doing it now, because it's important. For example, Scales Afffinity would play a Spellskite in the mainboard potentially and maybe gain some points. But skite is a weaker card also, as UR twin has sinkhole and jeskai/grixis have path/push.
Twin has an excellent matchup vs most uninteractive and/or fast decks. But we do know that's a fact. I am sure you agree.
On the other hand, Twin struggles vs most interactive decks. Decks like Jund and those kind of decks, or decks that get to play FoN might disrupt the combo. That's the reason to unban Twin. That's where it struggles.
SFM though, unlike Twin, was getting weaker and weaker as Modern grew faster and faster. SFM/Bskull are some tools that one can't use in an ultra fast meta, but Twin is something one can still use at a fast meta.

Verdict: No. This is the false reason to say Twin would be fine.

2) Would Twin be fine now that Modern is more powerful? Potentially, yes.
As more powerful tools are being printed, cards like Fatal Push, Force of Negation and stuff, yes. Those are valid reasons to say "twin might be safer". Also, cards like Remand/Electrolyze are not as great as they once were(even if they are kind of back on the menu with Looting gone).
Then, there is another aspect. Twin would also play cards like Opt(this would make the deck more consistent), JTMS(this would make the deck more powerful), Abrade, maybe Field of Ruin, Magmatic Sinkhole(great addition) and other cards. There is a case Jeskai Twin would be a thing with T3feri(I strongly believe it would be a very good deck. I know Jeskai Twin was not the best Twin variant, but it won a GP in the end, and t3feri could fit into the deck. On the other hand, I heard people saying, Twin would not want to turn 3 tap out for this. Think I disagree and believe Twin would want to do exactly thins, but anyways). Also, grixis Twin was a deck I used to love and play. Getting to play Grixis, eliminate the fact that it's life total problem exists, because you can kill anyone fast with Twin, and also have cards like Fatal Push, K- Com with Opt, JTMS and other cards is insane.
So, I can understand people saying that but people do not also know Twin's final/optimal list and/or colour combination, so.
Verdict: Potentially/probably, but not sure.

Final Verdict: So many aspects here. We just don't know for sure. Any person saying "Twin would be fine" simple as that, is just wrong. You can say some valid reasons, to conclude Twin would be potentially fine, but you also have to analyze the reasons why Twin would be stronger as well. All in all, there is a case Twin would be weaker overall (stronger from the new cards, but a lot weaker by the new answers towards it). And then there is also the opposite scenatio, where the new cards it received would make the deck stronger overall, as this is more impactful than the answers Wizards introduced into Modern that are excellent against it.

Important note: I asked Todd Anderson 6 days ago, why did he say on camera that he would not unban Twin, as he did say a numerous times that Twin would be fine from a power level standpoint. He answered me that while Twin could be fine from a power level standpoint, and he does want Twin to come back, he does not want to force new players play against the combo, as it requires too much practise and/or time to learn how to play against it. It's rewarding when you finally learn to do it, but it would be a mistake for WOTC to make players play against this deck again. He also said, it's unfun for the opponent and those two reasons are the reasons that it will remain banned for ever.
Now, I don't fully agree here. I think the unfun aspect is silly, as there are numerous 200% more unfun decks to play against. Decks like the new PO deck, whirza, tron, and every deck that one think it's unfun for him.
I will try to find Todd's answer, somewhere in his streams. It was a 10 min answer and deeply thanked me for asking him that.

Final/final note: I think both Twin and Pod could be tested from Wizards after the next Pro tour. They really should, but not really sure Wizards feels there is any upside in Twin to be unbanned, as they probably think it will steal some diversity out of the current Modern format. There is a glimmer of hope, as they said there are some cards they are looking into at their latest announcement, as vague as this is.

Sorry for the long post.
I know most people don't care and don't actually want to talk about this, so I'll do the courtesy of at least hiding it behind a button for those who actually care. :party:
Reply to text wall about Twin
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Re Format is slower:
Maybe it's slower than it was with Hogaak. The data collected previously objectively shows that 2018 saw a considerable jump in wins every turn 4 and earlier, when compared to 2015. Whether that translates to today remains to be seen. I don't feel comfortable making any meaningful assumptions about format speed, especially with the London Mulligan helping decks like Tron and Horizon lands helping decks like Burn. But to outright claim that the format is slower (slower than what? 2015?) is not only unfounded, but doesn't really make sense.

Re Matchups:
We don't really know several of these decks would line up, considering none of them have needed to tune themselves to deal with it, and many current decks never actually existed in their current forms when Twin was legal. All just assumptions and guesses.

Re Good against fast/uninteractive:
I mean.. sure? Sort of? It's a bad control deck that can win on turn 4 about 22.5% of the time. It still loses to those fast/uninteractive decks if it stumbles at any point. And if it stifles them, then I agree, that's a good thing.

Re New cards:
Force of Negation is a card that Twin would never play in the main deck as it does nothing meaningful to protect the combo. At best, it comes in the side for mirrors/control/other combos.
Opt is fairly bad at digging for specific cards, Field of Ruin goes against the Blood Moon plan, Abrade is cool, but lots of things still don't die to it, same goes for Magmatic Sinkhole. Jace is a meaningless sidegrade, replacing (insert grindy alt-win con for control/midrange games).
These added cards are embarassingly mediocre compared to the upgrades other decks have gained in both threats and answers.

Re Other colors:
While other colors provided additional tools, none showed that any were better than straight UR. The clunkiness of the mana. Would dilluting the deck and making the mana worse be overcome by the benefits gained by black or white or green? Dunno. But to call them "insane" is ignoring their longstanding mediocrity when legal.

Re Todd Anderson says Twin 'unfun' for new players
Boo hoo. Modern is for punishing speed and efficiency. I'm sure new players love playing against turn 3-4 Whirza combos, fast Titans, early Burn kills, insurmountable Dredge boardstates backed by multiple free Lightning Helixes, being locked out by Karn wishes and all the other misery that defines the format. Sorry not sorry. This is not a format friendly to new players, and is an irrelevant reason to keep Twin banned.

Re "Stealing diversity"
Modern is not, was not, and has never been stifled in regards to diversity as a result of Twin. This has been mathematically shown numerous times. In fact, outside of the openly egregious bans (like Eldrazi), Modern has literally always been filled with 20-30 decks that could spike tournament, and then 5-6 decks sitting above them.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Modern is not, was not, and has never been stifled in regards to diversity as a result of Twin. This has been mathematically shown numerous times.
This is wrong. I specifically asked ktkenshinx if this was proven or not. He answered me that the only thing that it's proven is that Twin was not stealing diversity among other blue decks. But, I did not say that. I can acknowledge it did not. I just said it could be stifling overall diversity, a think ktk specifically told me more than once that it has not be proven at all. So, what you are saying is not right.
I'll provide some specific metrics and then I'd be happy to never speak of it again. I started by specifically just looking at 2019 and 2015:

In 2015, across all 7 GPs that year, there were 23 unique Top 8 placements out of a possible 56 slots. There were 6 different winners out of 7 slots (this is being generous and counting the Twin decks together, despite being different builds).

In 2019, across all 11 GPs this year, there were 22 unique Top 8 placements out of a possible 88 slots. There were 7 different winners out of 11 slots (this is being generous and counting the Shadow decks separately, despite being similar).

What does this mean? I looked at all years since 2015 and got this:

Unique T8 placement 2015: 41.1% (23/56)
Unique T8 placement 2016: 33.3% (24/72)
Unique T8 placement 2017: 39.3% (22/56)
Unique T8 placement 2018: 29.2% (27/72)
Unique T8 placement 2019: 25.0% (22/88)

Unique Winners 2015: 85.7% (6/7)
Unique Winners 2016: 77.7% (7/9)
Unique Winners 2017: 71.4% (5/7)
Unique Winners 2018: 77.7% (7/9)
Unique Winners 2019 63.6% (7/11)

There were more unique Top 8 placements and winners in 2015, by percentage, than in any other year. What this says about "competitive diversity" can be up to interpretation, but it seems like 2015 was the most diverse competitive year we have had in the past 5 years.

But the larger take-away could be that pretty much ALL the data sets fall in the "mid 20s" range for T8s and 5-7 unique winners, meaning there has always been diversity, and 2015 was possibly the most diverse, depending on analysis criteria. Ironically, it appears that both this year and last year were less competitively diverse than the Eldrazi/Probe 2016.

Simple conclusion? Raw numbers of "competitive diversity" have remained largely unchanged throughout the last five years. However, more events do not appear to provide additional opportunities for more diversity to shine. Percentage of competitive diversity has trended downward since 2015.
graphtop8win.PNG
Edit: Adding in other years. Numbers pulled from mtgtop8.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Can we please stop beating a dead horse for once. Each time people start repeating the same discussion cycle of the past 4-5 years about Twin. Just the same story over and over again. Just stop it. Its not constructive or anything. Twin is gone and will stay gone so move on ffs after all these years.

Can we please ban talk about Twin?

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

On a minor thing. Really excited for the eldraine castle lands, I think they will add a little spice to certain modern decks that can support having at least one of them. :)
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Post by Arkmer » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
On a minor thing. Really excited for the eldraine castle lands, I think they will add a little spice to certain modern decks that can support having at least one of them. :)
Regardless of what I believe the power level of the land cycles are in Eldraine, I was really pumped to see the design space and restrictions placed on them. I think it's a very cool design space and makes for some interesting components. The common cycle requiring you to have 3 of that color's land type makes for a little push toward consolidating colors and using fewer non-basics (or at least typeless lands), but also not impossible to be multi-color.

I really liked seeing some of the other design that pushes consolidating colors as well. Colored artifacts are very welcome in my opinion. Maybe they could have added a colored pip to some of those legendary ones (I think 3 is the right number), but they seem to hit a very cool mark without allowing just anyone to play them.

In the vein of "consolidating colors" I am still often bothered by artifact decks essentially just being able to play 5 colors most of the time. While it's not a crushing factor of the format, I don't really feel like it's what was intended. I saw this little guy during the prerelease and it made me think about how many of those cards could have been templated to be a little less universal.

I'm really enjoying brewing with Adventure as well. Using the mechanic during the prerelease was fairly eye opening for what it might be capable of in Modern. Even some of the smaller effects are pretty interesting to bat around and find a niche home for.
I've boxed my cards up for long term storage.

Maybe I will return... Maybe not.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
On a minor thing. Really excited for the eldraine castle lands, I think they will add a little spice to certain modern decks that can support having at least one of them.
All the little edges due to cards like Mystic Sanctuary and Narset, and the Faerie cards almost has me drawn back in, I love that new Island so much. :D
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Post by Wraithpk » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
I have asked the same thing another time.

- Would anyone be ready to playtest Twin on cockatrice/xmage or somewhere else against the Modern gauntlet?

- Would ktkenshinx use those numbers to write an article about Twin? Will you do it?

If both things are a go, I am willing to be one person playtesting with Twin, against someone handling the Modern gauntlet.
I'm so down, dude.

I was actually having a conversation on reddit in a thread where someone was asking about what a current version of Twin would look like. After a lot of thinking about what the different builds have gotten since it was banned, here's what I came up with:
New additions to the old shells since it got banned, in my opinion:

Grixis: Push (which is HUGE), Plague Engineer, Collective Brutality, LtLH

Temur: not sure what you would do with this shell today. Maybe Hexdrinker, W6, maybe you do a snow build with Astrolabe and Coatl. Either way, you also get Collector Ouphe, BBE, Tireless Tracker, Veil of Summer (gross), and Weather the Storm.

Jeskai: T3feri, T5feri (if you're curving that high), Veto, maybe SFM, Giver of Runes, Spell Queller.

Izzet: Field of Ruin, Archmage's Charm, Fiery Islet.

Things all of them got: Opt, Magmatic Sinkhole, Fry, Abrade, JTMS, Ceremonious Rejection, Force of Negation, Prismatic Vista (more for the 3 color builds).

I think if Twin were unbanned today, I would start with Izzet, since that was always the best build, but also try to figure out a Temur build, since that looks like the 3 color build that's gotten the most over the past few years. Temur snowTwin sounds pretty sweet...
I gotta say, the Temur build looks like it's gotten the most over the years, that looks very interesting. Astrolabe also means you can run Blood Moon easily, which the 3 color builds used to struggle with. Veil of Summer with Twin is also just dirty...
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
1 year ago
Can we please stop beating a dead horse for once. Each time people start repeating the same discussion cycle of the past 4-5 years about Twin. Just the same story over and over again. Just stop it. Its not constructive or anything. Twin is gone and will stay gone so move on ffs after all these years.

Can we please ban talk about Twin?
While I can see how it would be exhausting for many, I think right now is as good a time as any to actually discuss it. Wizards recently unbanned Stoneforge Mystic and banned Faithless Looting. I think this shows at least some acceptance of giving some cards a chance in Modern. It has showed a movement toward a more fair format. I don't know if Twin would contribute to this or not, but there is one thing we can be sure of - when Twin was in the format, decks had to have an answer or die. This means that the decks that usually beat Twin are FAIR decks. Now I know that doesn't automatically mean that Modern would get more fair; after all, Twin is not a fair deck, depending on your experiences of course. But it is also not even close to some of the other decks that have been banned.

*I still think that Whirza is an amazing comparison with Splinter Twin decks, in many ways.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
*I still think that Whirza is an amazing comparison with Splinter Twin decks, in many ways.
Is it though? What are some Whirza lists? Because if its this (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/m ... irza#paper) then no, Whirza is not comparable, any more than any other combo deck is.

If its not running Remand, and Flash Creatures, its simply not 'Twin-like', in how it unfolds.

Note: I take personal offense when every 4 or near 4cmc card spawns the next 'Twin'. Twin remains a unique experience, not even remotely matched since it was banned in terms of its play style, and yes, I've tried them all.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

I say it because the easiest wins are through the combo. But it also has a very real midrange plan, Whirza more so than Twin. It's a deck that can win with multiple angles (Whirza via hate to slow down opposing decks and Twin with Blood Moon). If the Combo is shut down on board, both decks have answers to that (Twin by killing Skite or bouncing with Cryptic Command and Whirza by beating down with the Construct token and valuing their opponent with Urza).

I'm sorry. I realize that nothing will compare to what another player likes. Nothing compares to Summer Bloom in that deck, even if Field of the Dead and sometimes Golos, Tireless Pilgrim have made that deck stronger and more fun.

*To be fair, I may mean that the deck has similar implications with the Ban List and that I feel the decks have a similar power level right now. Emry from the new set may push Whirza a bit more than Twin ever was, but that will remain to be seen. Also if a Whirza player has a Thopter Foundry out and is on turn 3 or 4, especially 4, it is a real concern of playing Urza, then going Whir/Goblin Engineer/Sword of the Meek and then the game is over. Maybe that is more KCI-like than Twin because Twin relies on turn 3, tap something of yours, untap, then play a Splinter Twin on that tapper dude.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Maybe that is more KCI-like than Twin because Twin relies on turn 3, tap something of yours, untap, then play a Splinter Twin on that tapper dude.
Based on what I've seen (and its limited, I have not spent an hour on MTG content since WoW came out again) I would say its certainly more in the KCI world, than the Twin world.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Maybe that is more KCI-like than Twin because Twin relies on turn 3, tap something of yours, untap, then play a Splinter Twin on that tapper dude.
Based on what I've seen (and its limited, I have not spent an hour on MTG content since WoW came out again) I would say its certainly more in the KCI world, than the Twin world.
I should definitely be more careful with my comparisons. I've read articles by no fewer than 4 strong Whirza players. I have played the deck at 4 tournaments and mostly tested the crap out of the deck. So I should know better.

I think I meant more the power level of the decks and that at one point of the game, you have to be ready to potentially die if you do not have the answer. Maybe that is not unlike any other Modern deck, but it feels at least very consistent with these decks (as are other consistent decks like Tron, Titanshift, Burn, Jund, and the like). The pieces of the deck are definitely more KCI like or Grixis Prison like. It hits on a lot of angles too, as sometimes just Thopter Foundry and some cantrip artifacts can lead toward beating a deck (like Burn or UW when they don't have an answer to 1/1s).
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
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Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Arkmer wrote:
1 year ago
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
On a minor thing. Really excited for the eldraine castle lands, I think they will add a little spice to certain modern decks that can support having at least one of them. :)
Regardless of what I believe the power level of the land cycles are in Eldraine, I was really pumped to see the design space and restrictions placed on them. I think it's a very cool design space and makes for some interesting components. The common cycle requiring you to have 3 of that color's land type makes for a little push toward consolidating colors and using fewer non-basics (or at least typeless lands), but also not impossible to be multi-color.

In the vein of "consolidating colors" I am still often bothered by artifact decks essentially just being able to play 5 colors most of the time. While it's not a crushing factor of the format, I don't really feel like it's what was intended. I saw this little guy during the prerelease and it made me think about how many of those cards could have been templated to be a little less universal.

I'm really enjoying brewing with Adventure as well. Using the mechanic during the prerelease was fairly eye opening for what it might be capable of in Modern. Even some of the smaller effects are pretty interesting to bat around and find a niche home for.
had to take out two Shefet Dunes from a deck to make sure Castle Ardenvale entered untapped. Although it's good this eldraine land only required a "plains" and not a basic plains, so playing temple gardens with it is fine. I'm getting one of each land on pre-order, for testing. :)

on artifacts. I think the printing of astrolabe, helped them play multiple colors in their deck. For now, there feels to be nothing wrong with this.

on adventure cards. We were discussing the Giant Killer at the azorious titan thread in mtgs, feels like a good sideboard card that can be fetched with Ranger-Captain Eos.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
On a minor thing. Really excited for the eldraine castle lands, I think they will add a little spice to certain modern decks that can support having at least one of them.
All the little edges due to cards like Mystic Sanctuary and Narset, and the Faerie cards almost has me drawn back in, I love that new Island so much. :D
you seem to like Mystic Sanctuary a lot. I guess there's some way to make good use of it. Although still a question on how many can be put into a deck.

also liking some of the new faeries. The cunning wish faerie and the one that counters things feel like they have potential.
gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Wraithpk

So, it seems like the testing of Twin vs the Modern gauntlet is on?
I'm interested to see the results of this. :)
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
- Would ktkenshinx use those numbers to write an article about Twin? Will you do it?
What is there to add that isn't already stated in the post I already made? If someone wants to pay me to write an article, I'd be happy to fill it with the same baseless exposition and opinion fluff that dominates most MTG articles. But considering the lack of response or reaction to the post I already spent a bunch of time on, it seems like a low priority.

The one thing I hope we can agree on moving forward though: Banning Twin absolutely and definitively did nothing to increase competitive diversity whatsoever. It did not do it for blue decks, and now we know it did not do it for the format as a whole either.

And while the reasoning behind why the format is staying in the window of mid-20s number of decks Top 8ing and 5-7 decks winning may be unknown, it's clear that diversity has remained about the same in gross numbers, and has trended down proportional to the number of events. Make of that what you will. But we can never, ever, under any circumstances, claim that banning Twin increased diversity by any measurable metric. Unless someone wants to pull their own numbers and show otherwise, I will stand by this conclusion indefinitely.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
you seem to like Mystic Sanctuary a lot. I guess there's some way to make good use of it. Although still a question on how many can be put into a deck.
2, I think. You probably dont want 3, and its fetchable, so 2 should be sufficient to set up a loop.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
you seem to like Mystic Sanctuary a lot. I guess there's some way to make good use of it. Although still a question on how many can be put into a deck.
2, I think. You probably dont want 3, and its fetchable, so 2 should be sufficient to set up a loop.
Doesn't 1 copy loop with a single cryptic command? Either way, I have two foils on order for whatever bad deck it ends up in. :party:

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 1 year ago

I have to agree that now is the best time to discuss more unbannings -- I'm looking at Twin and Pod. Both promote interaction, Pod happens to be weak to Abrade/Kommand/Trophy/Force/Remand and Twin happens to be weak to removal that is already good against SFM decks, Goyf decks, Pod creatures, etc. I'd love to get both cards back, honestly.
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