[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 1 year ago

If the point is simply for a bunch of different decks to want to jam SFM, then by all means yes SFM is attractive to many shells and will be used all over the place.

Which simply doesn't mean much when only 2 or 3 of those shells are any good and every other deck simply jamming SFM is straight up mediocre or average.

I guess you got it if all you want to prove is that SFM is widely played. Other than that, pretty meaningless.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

The "lean" version of the SFM package (4 SFM, 1 BS 1 Sword) is only as good as a 4/4 lifelinker or that sword, each for 4 and 6 mana is, respectively. The reality of playing her is that often a Batterskull is too slow and too clunky to be of significance, and the Swords are super mana-intensive (2 to tutor, 2 to put into play, 2 to equip) and require a good, evasive body to really do anything. Sometimes this is great, but often you can't waste resources diddling around with the Sword because you need to do something that impacts the board state. This is at least what I noticed after several dozen matches in various different shells. None of them felt spectacularly good or powerful. And when it did, it was usually because I was in an overwhelmingly advantageous position to begin with, regardless of Stoneforge. She felt very "win-more" and rarely was able to pull me out of a losing position. Decks that will succeed with her are ones that are either already objectively good (like Whirza, though, I disagree that she should even be in the list), or decks that are already synergistic and she complements a robust creature strategy (like the Bant and Jeskai examples, though the Bant looks considerably better than Jeskai).

IMO, shoving the package into a bad deck may be better than what that deck is doing, but that says more about how bad that deck was to begin with than anything else.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
The synergy between SFM and JTMS and FoN is very big and super rewarding if you build your deck like this. Such small details, going forward, will surely make UW Stoneblade feel smoother and better overall.
Am I missing something here? What synergy? That Jace pitches to Force and might brainstorm away your equipment after someone kills your Stoneforge?

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Zero UW in that top 16 is really surprising. BW Blade looks similar to the first deck I ever played in Modern before I discovered Scalding Tarns.
having access to a discard package is a nice way to get rid of things that can potentially kill sfm.. or the batterskull that she is fetching. This would be the route I would go if still had sfm's.
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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

gkourou wrote:
1 year ago
Drown in the lock seems good enough to me. With all those fetchlands, it might be better in Modern than it is in standard.
I agree with most of your pros, particularly the observation about Cavern matchups. It's great when your reactive counterspell also deals with threats that already resolved. In fact, this addresses some of the play/draw issues of 2 CMC countermagic, particularly if the opponent is playing T1 or T2 threats. Cards like Glistener Elf, Electromancer, Baral, Blighted Agent, and Kor Spiritdancer are often "must-kills" that sneak under the T2 countermagic protection if played when you are on the draw. Add in all the other two-drop creatures of Modern and it's awesome to have a counterspell that can hit them both ways, whether on the play or the draw.

That said, I have some concerns about this card's playability. The big one is the issue you mentioned about Tron, which I'm going to extend to all big mana decks. There are tons of scenarios where this card is totally dead against big mana when you need it the most. On the play, it will frequently miss T2 Scryings in the common line of T1 Sphere/Star off Tron land, T2 crack Sphere/Star and play Scrying off double Tron land. It won't miss that line if you open with a discard spell, but now your unconditional counterspell depends on a mini combo in your hand, and you should probably just take the Scrying off the discard spell anyway. Compare with Logic Knot, where your 2 CMC counter will almost always be live in the early turns. Once we get past T2, things are even bleaker. This card can basically never counter the T3/T4 Tron payoff, just as in other big mana matchups, it can't hit the T4 or even T5 Titan, nor most E-Tron fatties. It will eventually hit those cards if the game goes long, but you'd still probably rather have Knot in those cases. Drown encounters similar issues in the Whirza matchup, especially against Whir and T3 Urza. It also randomly misses key haymakers in other matchups, like Angler in DS decks and Reveler in Prowess.

Ultimately, my biggest issue with the card is that it depends on a resource you don't have too much control over. Unlike Knot, which relies on your graveyard (because delve is B-R-O-K-E-N), or Push, which depends on you binning cards, you can't dependably meet the conditions of Drown in all matchups. That's fine if your metagame doesn't have those matchups, but problematic if you are in a diverse Modern field where Titanshift, Tron, Amulet, E Tron, and Whirza all appear... i.e. most Modern fields. To some extent, it's okay to play cards that are dead in those matchups: Push is frequently dead in most of those matchups and still an excellent card. Same with sweepers to some extent. But I think there's a difference between a card being dead because that effect sucks in the match versus a card being dead because you can't turn it on when you need it.
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

One of the strengths of UW control was the underrated hidden CA. It made most your opponent removal dead draws because other than Snapcaster, which is value on its own, it didn't run any creatures. Now that SFM has been added to deck I feel it has actually weakened the deck because all removal spells are now online. SFM is clunky, slow and generally loses more games than it wins or would have won if the card was Supreme Verdict or PW instead.

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Post by pierreb » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
That said, I have some concerns about this card's playability. The big one is the issue you mentioned about Tron, which I'm going to extend to all big mana decks.
As someone mentioned in the card's thread, running archive trap can enable this card immediately. Trap then makes main-deck surgical extraction playable, which means you have a main-deck answer to GY strategies.

Is it worth playing an otherwise dead card? I don't know. But it fixes the card's main problem. Few decks don't search their library in their early turns. (Either fetch land, sylvan scrying, or expedition map.)

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Post by Wraithpk » 1 year ago

I don't think you want to run Archive Trap just to make this card better, unless you're UB Mill. Card seems REALLY good in Mill. Otherwise, it's still pretty good in any UBx Control deck.
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Post by Amalek0 » 1 year ago

[mention]ktkenshinx[/mention] I think the list of modern-playables at this point is still quite small: Most of these are niche--
Deafening Silence is an obvious sideboard hoser

Glass Casket is a bullet for whir/artifact builds

Bonecrusher giant and Embereth are options for living end (murderous rider too, but that may also be a candidate for control decks as a 1-of)

Fervent champion fits in some sort of dedicated RW puresteel shell

Dance of the Manse is an obvious candidate for whirza

Aside from those, the interesting cards seem to be Wishclaw talisman, once upon a time, Emry, lurker of the loch, Merchant of the vale, and charming prince. Merchant is another candidate for the living end deck but may also re-enable some of our lovely graveyard shenanigans decks. The rest of these seem quite powerful, and I'm anticipating that one of them successfully boosts a deck to tier 1 or breaks the format in some fashion at some point in the future.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

You left off drown in the loch. I think that is certainly playable. It may be a removal spell early and a counter spell later on after the grave gets some cards in it. I expect that to be the easiest way to use it.

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Post by tronix » 1 year ago

eh drown in the loch doesnt look playable to me. the card is just too likely to be stone dead in the early game when highly interactive decks need to present resistance. the added flexibility of being a counterspell or terminate (ie 2 cmc 'answer your thing') when turned on seems a mediocre payoff seeing as the floor is so low. considering the decks accelerating/ramping/cheating on mana it looks even more narrow.
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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

Amalek0 wrote:
1 year ago
ktkenshinx I think the list of modern-playables at this point is still quite small:
Here's my own list for reference from the ELD thread:
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
So far, my Modern playables/maybes are as follows:

Charming Prince: Versatile, on-curve creature with relevant modes. 2 CMC flicker is gas in a bunch of strategies. Standout decks include Soulherder variants, Humans, and D&T variants.

Deafening Silence: XTREME cheap Rule of Law/Eidolon/Canonist. There are metagames where this is an SB card and there are combo decks (Possibility Storm! Knowledge Pool!) that want it.

Glass Casket: Whirable, Urza-synergizing removal. Maybe a bullet in some decks.

Emry, Lurker of the Loch: Talked about to death. Effective CMC 1 grindy threat/value machine that slots into existing Whir/Thopter/Sword shells.

The Magic Mirror: Not totally sure about this. On the one hand, it's a huge upside for UUU. On the other hand, instant/sorcery-based cost reductions aren't nearly as broken as delve, and the card can a little win-morey if you've already churned through 7+ cards in the GY. Probably a bust but has potential.

Rankle, Master of Pranks: The only reason I give this a shot is haste, but it's a longshot. If the abilities triggered on attack, that would be much better. But triggering on damage is bleh: can't hit PWs and can get chumped.

Wishclaw Talisman: Seems strong in A+B combo decks, even if there aren't many around. Play this T2 and then T3 wish for your card and profit.

Ironcreg Feat: Don't have time to do the math now, but my guess is there's a pretty decent chance of SSG+Rituals+Feat+Payoff leading to some nasty T2-T3 lines in Modern. SSG/Ritual+Feat is 7 mana on T3 which is just Karn (obviously, Tron can already do that, but Tron can't also play Blood Moon). SSG+Ritual+Feat is 7 mana on T2, which is really scary. All In Red variants may use this. Also, DRAGONSTORM PLIZ

Once Upon a Time: Format-defining. Full stop. Already wrote about it and many others have done the same.

Questing Beast: As with Rankle, haste is what gives this a shot. Unlike with Rankle, this explicitly solves the problem of hitting PWs or players. This lets you clock a player while also eliminating walkers, which is normally a tension that makes it so hard to deal with PWs. Also as with Rankle, this probably isn't good.

Grumgully, the Generous: 3-card Melira combo in Goblins is good enough to see play in a mediocre deck.

Oko, Thief of Crowns: Food tokens are nice (as anyone who played that MTGA Brawl event learned), but the real winner here is the ability to hit artifacts. Notably, Oko turns off Bridge, Amulet, and O-Stone on curve. 3 CMC value PWs typically suck because they can't do anything against big mana decks or prison artifact decks, but Oko addresses both. That's on top of all the other value this card brings, and casting it T2 off the Hierarch/Birds you got from your 0 mana OUT.

Stonecoil Serpent: This gets zany with Hardened Scales and is not chumpable.

Witch's Cottage lands: All of these will probably be playable in some deck as a 1 or 2-of, especially two-colored strategies.

Then there's the cards I'm having trouble evaluating which include The Royal Scions (high loyalty, great utility, no board impact), Robber of the Rich (2 CMC haste value engine, most Confidant variants suck), Fires of Invention (free is broken, this doesn't cheat things too well), lots of adventure cards (2 for 1s often good, these effects mostly weak), and food tokens (incidental value good, anti-aggro life gain good, tokens super terrible when behind in many matchups).
Comparing our lists, Rider would be in my "hard to evaluate" pile because neither half is playable in any universe but together they might be. I'm not sure what decks want Giant so that's probably a miss for me. Merchant and Champion seem narrow, but I agree Shieldbreaker is playable in certain decks. I forgot about Dance and expect Whirza pilots will toy around with it. It's a sweet topdeck in the midgame or later in a lot of matchups, especially with Urza activations. There might be some loops or extreme value plays with it too that we haven't identified yet.

Re: Drown
I'm still down on this card. I'm trying to find reasons to be hopeful because I love UBx strategies, but all of the Drown defenses I've read aren't too convincing. The notion of Esper Control or Grixis Control using Thought Scour on an opponent to turn on T2 Drown is appalling to me. Discard into Drown is a little better, and Drown as a whole is gas in many matchups, but the whole Drown gameplan seems disappointing against UBx's worst matchup: big mana. I don't think this card solves the big mana problem, a problem straight UW has already solved. Maybe some more experienced UBx players can speak to how this will improve Grixis (an absolutely unplayably bad deck right now) and Esper (more of a sleeper but still lacking results).
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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

On Reddit people make a big stink about how you're NOT supposed to mill your opponent to make Drown live but IMO you are going to have to. Yes, fetches exist, but you're going to look real silly against Merfolk or Tron with your Drowns in hand. Figuring out a way to mill the opponent for low opportunity cost might be a way to make it work. I'd be more up on the card if I was allowed to play 8 Thought Scours in my list.

Another option is to combine Drown with a bunch of discard, which is not a big stretch with the card being black. However countermagic and discard do not work together well and although Drown is also removal, the potential power of the card is it being Counterspell. If you end up mostly using Drown as removal, you're better off playing Fatal Push.

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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago

Another option is to combine Drown with a bunch of discard, which is not a big stretch with the card being black. However countermagic and discard do not work together well and although Drown is also removal, the potential power of the card is it being Counterspell. If you end up mostly using Drown as removal, you're better off playing Fatal Push.
I don't necessarily agree with that. Discard and counter could work really well together. Yes we didn't have such a successful shell in modern in a while, but that doesn't mean that the premise is necessarily wrong.

Now, I am yet to be convinced that Drown will have any sort of impact, I personally find it too situational, but a counter/discard deck, i.e. Sultai control/midrange or esper midrange or Faeries, could potentially use that.
Counter, draw a card.

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Post by Amalek0 » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Amalek0 wrote:
1 year ago
ktkenshinx I think the list of modern-playables at this point is still quite small:
Here's my own list for reference from the ELD thread:
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
So far, my Modern playables/maybes are as follows:

Charming Prince: Versatile, on-curve creature with relevant modes. 2 CMC flicker is gas in a bunch of strategies. Standout decks include Soulherder variants, Humans, and D&T variants.

Deafening Silence: XTREME cheap Rule of Law/Eidolon/Canonist. There are metagames where this is an SB card and there are combo decks (Possibility Storm! Knowledge Pool!) that want it.

Glass Casket: Whirable, Urza-synergizing removal. Maybe a bullet in some decks.

Emry, Lurker of the Loch: Talked about to death. Effective CMC 1 grindy threat/value machine that slots into existing Whir/Thopter/Sword shells.

The Magic Mirror: Not totally sure about this. On the one hand, it's a huge upside for UUU. On the other hand, instant/sorcery-based cost reductions aren't nearly as broken as delve, and the card can a little win-morey if you've already churned through 7+ cards in the GY. Probably a bust but has potential.

Rankle, Master of Pranks: The only reason I give this a shot is haste, but it's a longshot. If the abilities triggered on attack, that would be much better. But triggering on damage is bleh: can't hit PWs and can get chumped.

Wishclaw Talisman: Seems strong in A+B combo decks, even if there aren't many around. Play this T2 and then T3 wish for your card and profit.

Ironcreg Feat: Don't have time to do the math now, but my guess is there's a pretty decent chance of SSG+Rituals+Feat+Payoff leading to some nasty T2-T3 lines in Modern. SSG/Ritual+Feat is 7 mana on T3 which is just Karn (obviously, Tron can already do that, but Tron can't also play Blood Moon). SSG+Ritual+Feat is 7 mana on T2, which is really scary. All In Red variants may use this. Also, DRAGONSTORM PLIZ

Once Upon a Time: Format-defining. Full stop. Already wrote about it and many others have done the same.

Questing Beast: As with Rankle, haste is what gives this a shot. Unlike with Rankle, this explicitly solves the problem of hitting PWs or players. This lets you clock a player while also eliminating walkers, which is normally a tension that makes it so hard to deal with PWs. Also as with Rankle, this probably isn't good.

Grumgully, the Generous: 3-card Melira combo in Goblins is good enough to see play in a mediocre deck.

Oko, Thief of Crowns: Food tokens are nice (as anyone who played that MTGA Brawl event learned), but the real winner here is the ability to hit artifacts. Notably, Oko turns off Bridge, Amulet, and O-Stone on curve. 3 CMC value PWs typically suck because they can't do anything against big mana decks or prison artifact decks, but Oko addresses both. That's on top of all the other value this card brings, and casting it T2 off the Hierarch/Birds you got from your 0 mana OUT.

Stonecoil Serpent: This gets zany with Hardened Scales and is not chumpable.

Witch's Cottage lands: All of these will probably be playable in some deck as a 1 or 2-of, especially two-colored strategies.

Then there's the cards I'm having trouble evaluating which include The Royal Scions (high loyalty, great utility, no board impact), Robber of the Rich (2 CMC haste value engine, most Confidant variants suck), Fires of Invention (free is broken, this doesn't cheat things too well), lots of adventure cards (2 for 1s often good, these effects mostly weak), and food tokens (incidental value good, anti-aggro life gain good, tokens super terrible when behind in many matchups).
Comparing our lists, Rider would be in my "hard to evaluate" pile because neither half is playable in any universe but together they might be. I'm not sure what decks want Giant so that's probably a miss for me. Merchant and Champion seem narrow, but I agree Shieldbreaker is playable in certain decks. I forgot about Dance and expect Whirza pilots will toy around with it. It's a sweet topdeck in the midgame or later in a lot of matchups, especially with Urza activations. There might be some loops or extreme value plays with it too that we haven't identified yet.

Re: Drown
I'm still down on this card. I'm trying to find reasons to be hopeful because I love UBx strategies, but all of the Drown defenses I've read aren't too convincing. The notion of Esper Control or Grixis Control using Thought Scour on an opponent to turn on T2 Drown is appalling to me. Discard into Drown is a little better, and Drown as a whole is gas in many matchups, but the whole Drown gameplan seems disappointing against UBx's worst matchup: big mana. I don't think this card solves the big mana problem, a problem straight UW has already solved. Maybe some more experienced UBx players can speak to how this will improve Grixis (an absolutely unplayably bad deck right now) and Esper (more of a sleeper but still lacking results).
I think specifically living end may want the giant--it's a 2 mana shock that's a 3 as far as cascade is concerned; Rider I think might be playable in the sense that if you're a Bxx deck looking for one spell in your 75 that can kill planeswalkers directly, you can do worse than a 2:1; if jund played one dreadbore, there's a chance they might be in the market for this instead.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
On Reddit people make a big stink about how you're NOT supposed to mill your opponent to make Drown live but IMO you are going to have to. Yes, fetches exist, but you're going to look real silly against Merfolk or Tron with your Drowns in hand. Figuring out a way to mill the opponent for low opportunity cost might be a way to make it work. I'd be more up on the card if I was allowed to play 8 Thought Scours in my list.
I agree you might have to, but I disagree that's a good option. There just aren't enough payoffs for this approach. It's just Drown and Surgical Extraction that we know of, and the UBx shell that does that is nowhere close to viable at this time. A lot of people, especially on Reddit, are fixated on assessing this card in its best case scenarios against common fetchland-based decks that fill the graveyard. They are not considering the many top-tier strategies that don't fill the graveyard, and they aren't considering how dangerous it is to play a 2 CMC counter/kill that doesn't do what you need it to do on T2 (play/draw). If Scouring the opponent right now is almost always a bad play, unless you're killing a scry or playing UBx Mill, Scouring the opponent doesn't become good overnight with the addition of a counter/kill hybrid.

This is the other problem with the Drown evaluations: they treat the card as if it's a Ux card. It's not. It's a UBx card, and UBx is not in a good spot right now. Straight UB and Grixis are terrible for a number of reasons, not least of which is they lose access to Path, Veto, the broken T3feri, Colonnade, and the white SB suite. Drown doesn't suddenly solve those problems even in conjunction with discard spells. That means you're really analyzing Drown in an Esper shell. So the question should not be "Is Drown playable in insert-random-UBx-Modern-deck-here?" It's "Is Drown playable in Esper and is Esper good?" The answer to those questions is probably "Yes" and "Sort of" respectively, so Drown becomes at best a 1-2 inclusion in a fringier Tier 2 deck. That's not the upside most Redditors are clamoring about.
Another option is to combine Drown with a bunch of discard, which is not a big stretch with the card being black. However countermagic and discard do not work together well and although Drown is also removal, the potential power of the card is it being Counterspell. If you end up mostly using Drown as removal, you're better off playing Fatal Push.
100% agree with this. This makes Drown a midrange or tempo card for some kind of protect-the-queen strategy, but UBx does a bad job at that now unless it's a Death's Shadow deck. And DS decks want to Scour themselves, not the opponent.
Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Now, I am yet to be convinced that Drown will have any sort of impact, I personally find it too situational, but a counter/discard deck, i.e. Sultai control/midrange or esper midrange or Faeries, could potentially use that.
I'm on the same page (see above). Faeries is an interesting option but I sincerely doubt this is the piece that pushes Faeries from Tier 3 novelty to Tier 2 viability.
Amalek0 wrote:
1 year ago
I think specifically living end may want the giant--it's a 2 mana shock that's a 3 as far as cascade is concerned; Rider I think might be playable in the sense that if you're a Bxx deck looking for one spell in your 75 that can kill planeswalkers directly, you can do worse than a 2:1; if jund played one dreadbore, there's a chance they might be in the market for this instead.
Interesting. I hadn't thought of LE and I guess that's a possibility. Not an LE player so I don't know if they want a 2 CMC Shock, but it's an option. As for Jund, I don't see contemporary Jund playing even a single Dreadbore. Heck, they're skimping on even Push (most lists play 2 or 3). This puts Rider in a position where it probably sees no play and, at best, sees a singleton copy in very specific metagames.
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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

Living End already has a shock: Dead // Gone. It only hits creatures but is also only 1 mana.

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
On Reddit people make a big stink about how you're NOT supposed to mill your opponent to make Drown live but IMO you are going to have to. Yes, fetches exist, but you're going to look real silly against Merfolk or Tron with your Drowns in hand. Figuring out a way to mill the opponent for low opportunity cost might be a way to make it work. I'd be more up on the card if I was allowed to play 8 Thought Scours in my list.
I agree you might have to, but I disagree that's a good option. There just aren't enough payoffs for this approach. It's just Drown and Surgical Extraction that we know of, and the UBx shell that does that is nowhere close to viable at this time. A lot of people, especially on Reddit, are fixated on assessing this card in its best case scenarios against common fetchland-based decks that fill the graveyard. They are not considering the many top-tier strategies that don't fill the graveyard, and they aren't considering how dangerous it is to play a 2 CMC counter/kill that doesn't do what you need it to do on T2 (play/draw). If Scouring the opponent right now is almost always a bad play, unless you're killing a scry or playing UBx Mill, Scouring the opponent doesn't become good overnight with the addition of a counter/kill hybrid.

This is the other problem with the Drown evaluations: they treat the card as if it's a Ux card. It's not. It's a UBx card, and UBx is not in a good spot right now. Straight UB and Grixis are terrible for a number of reasons, not least of which is they lose access to Path, Veto, the broken T3feri, Colonnade, and the white SB suite. Drown doesn't suddenly solve those problems even in conjunction with discard spells. That means you're really analyzing Drown in an Esper shell. So the question should not be "Is Drown playable in insert-random-UBx-Modern-deck-here?" It's "Is Drown playable in Esper and is Esper good?" The answer to those questions is probably "Yes" and "Sort of" respectively, so Drown becomes at best a 1-2 inclusion in a fringier Tier 2 deck. That's not the upside most Redditors are clamoring about.
Another option is to combine Drown with a bunch of discard, which is not a big stretch with the card being black. However countermagic and discard do not work together well and although Drown is also removal, the potential power of the card is it being Counterspell. If you end up mostly using Drown as removal, you're better off playing Fatal Push.
100% agree with this. This makes Drown a midrange or tempo card for some kind of protect-the-queen strategy, but UBx does a bad job at that now unless it's a Death's Shadow deck. And DS decks want to Scour themselves, not the opponent.
Yeah, my 8 Thought Scour example still wouldn't make it. My point is more that, to make this card work, there needs to be some way to get cards in your opponent's yard without having to play awful cards. I agree that if this has a home it is somewhere in Esper, I see people celebrating the return of Grixis but Little Tef and sideboard cards still heavily outweigh this card even if it is always online.

It is kind of funny how Drown in the Loch causes the opposite of the Delve/Tarmogoyf discussion, where originally people had to realize that their is really low cost to getting cards in your own yard. Now we're so used to Delve being basically free people have to realize putting cards in your opponent's yard is a lot harder.

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Post by Amalek0 » 1 year ago

[mention]Bearscape[/mention] remember that dead/gone is mostly a dead card if shock isn't good enough. The new giant is a 3 mana 4/3 creature.

The floor is a lot higher because it can still actually just be a clock in the matchups where you *might* want to have a shock (for example, to answer dark confidant in Jund--you're in the market to hardcast creatures and then bury jund in value with living end later, but you still want key interaction for cards like bob or an early scooze.)

I don't know that there are a ton of decks where that is the case, since the archetype-case I can think of is tempo decks: you want to shock the early threat, the option of casting a beater is good, and you can't depend on your combo gameplan to actually bring it home against opposing interaction. But it's still a relatively unique option in the toolbox.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

the new drown in the loch card.. outside of a dedicated mill deck, it feels like too many hoops to jump through to make it effective.
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

I think drown in the loch is going to be easier to use than most here seem to believe. It doesn't stand alone, it will be used along side discard spells, spell snare, fatal push and others that will be played for the first turn or two. Then with a fetch land or a serum visions or something else in the grave too, drown becomes active and very powerful. Oh yeah, and then you get to snapcaster it.
I don't see many modern decks casting spells with higher converted mana costs than 4 and having four cards in the grave is commen, not by turn two but often turn 3 or 4. Tron and other big mana decks are just not a good match up for this card and you would side it out. This card is not perfect, but I expect it to see play.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Yeah, I'm cautiously optimistic about Drown in the Loch. While it may or may not be a good card, the UB colors (be it Grixis, Esper, Sultai, or UB itself) have never really been good, and this card doesn't solve the shortcomings of all those pairs. Neat card and I'm glad to have it, but I don't think it's going to elevate any of those decks on its own. Grixis and Esper are my personal absolute favorite color combinations, so I will be picking up a non-zero number of foil copies for sure, whether they're good or not!

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Post by Cow31337Killer » 1 year ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
1 year ago
I think drown in the loch is going to be easier to use than most here seem to believe. It doesn't stand alone, it will be used along side discard spells, spell snare, fatal push and others that will be played for the first turn or two. Then with a fetch land or a serum visions or something else in the grave too, drown becomes active and very powerful. Oh yeah, and then you get to snapcaster it.
I don't see many modern decks casting spells with higher converted mana costs than 4 and having four cards in the grave is commen, not by turn two but often turn 3 or 4. Tron and other big mana decks are just not a good match up for this card and you would side it out. This card is not perfect, but I expect it to see play.
I think you're overestimating the card. It's way too situational. The only tier 1 decks that this could really fit into color-wise (Grixis shadow, Esper control, Whirza) don't want to run this card, because they've already got better, more consistent removal and/or counterspells. And on top of that, this card is bad against almost every tier 1 deck in the format right now. I could maybe see this tested out as a random sideboard card once or twice but other than that the card is just not good enough for the current modern meta.

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Post by NeCRoW » 1 year ago

Amalek0 wrote:
1 year ago
Bearscape remember that dead/gone is mostly a dead card if shock isn't good enough. The new giant is a 3 mana 4/3 creature.

The floor is a lot higher because it can still actually just be a clock in the matchups where you *might* want to have a shock (for example, to answer dark confidant in Jund--you're in the market to hardcast creatures and then bury jund in value with living end later, but you still want key interaction for cards like bob or an early scooze.)

I don't know that there are a ton of decks where that is the case, since the archetype-case I can think of is tempo decks: you want to shock the early threat, the option of casting a beater is good, and you can't depend on your combo gameplan to actually bring it home against opposing interaction. But it's still a relatively unique option in the toolbox.
I am a Living End main and I can tell you I got excited seeing the giant. I obviously have to test its viability.
Being able to deal with Scavenging Ooze and Meddling Mage is huge without using Dismember. Of course good players will play around this but then buys you some time.

I won't particularly play the Giant shock on a Dark Confidant before I Living End as the value they get after it resolves and brings Dark Confidant back is usually greater.

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Post by pierreb » 1 year ago

Amalek0 wrote:
1 year ago
ktkenshinx I think the list of modern-playables at this point is still quite small:
I would add the rare castle cycle of lands in mono-colored decks. So the blue one in merfolk, grren in elves, white in life-gain, red in mono-red aggro variants, etc.

castle ardenvale
castle vantress
castle lochtwain
castle garenbrig
castle embereth

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Post by Amalek0 » 1 year ago

pierreb wrote:
1 year ago
Amalek0 wrote:
1 year ago
ktkenshinx I think the list of modern-playables at this point is still quite small:
I would add the rare castle cycle of lands in mono-colored decks. So the blue one in merfolk, grren in elves, white in life-gain, red in mono-red aggro variants, etc.

castle ardenvale
castle vantress
castle lochtwain
castle garenbrig
castle embereth
I think it's more than that. I expect both the white and blue lands to see play in the UW stoneblade and control shells, as both are incredibly low-cost singletons. If those shells choose to forego the 4x field of ruin package, they suddenly have 2 free slots for spells and 2 free slots for utility lands, and utility lands that are often untapped AND can make colored mana are big game. I'm certainly preordering foils, because I WILL play them.

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