[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

ElectricEye
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Post by ElectricEye » 2 years ago

Some musings on the banned list:

I think Green Sun's Zenith will be the next safe unban. It's in a similar camp to Stoneforge where it was banned almost immediately in the format's existence.

Birthing Pod / Splinter Twin / Punishing fire might be okay as well down the road, although fire and pod tend to make for boring gameplay. Twin seems easy enough to play around.

If Mox Opal proves problematic down the road, I can see it being swapped with the 5 artifact lands as well, but I don't think all 6 can be legal at the same time. Also, would KCI be able to be unbanned without Mox Opal as well?

Would Glimpse of Nature be okay, or they don't want to risk anything here? Elves are not really playable right now, and this could help them out.

Would Dread Return be fine without Grave-Troll and Faithless Looting?

Is Blazing Shoal alright? It seems like another glass cannon style combo deck like Neobrand. It cannot even kill turn 1 like Neobrand can, but turn 2 at the earliest. Is this something to worry about? Infect can currently kill turn 2 as it is.

Is Dark Depths alright to have in the format without Crop Rotation and fast mana like Mox Diamond, Lotus Petal, Elvish Spirit Guide? You still have the turn 1 urborg into thoughtseize turn 2 dark depths hexmage combo. Would this be an acceptable power level for modern? Crop Rotation not being legal makes the deck a LOT weaker.

Would Seething Song do anything if it were unbanned now? Only really storm can use it, and that deck can already win on turn 3 uninterrupted. Song would not speed the deck up any more, but would it increase the consistency?

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Post by Wraithpk » 2 years ago

ElectricEye wrote:
2 years ago
Some musings on the banned list:

I think Green Sun's Zenith will be the next safe unban. It's in a similar camp to Stoneforge where it was banned almost immediately in the format's existence.

Birthing Pod / Splinter Twin / Punishing fire might be okay as well down the road, although fire and pod tend to make for boring gameplay. Twin seems easy enough to play around.

If Mox Opal proves problematic down the road, I can see it being swapped with the 5 artifact lands as well, but I don't think all 6 can be legal at the same time. Also, would KCI be able to be unbanned without Mox Opal as well?

Would Glimpse of Nature be okay, or they don't want to risk anything here? Elves are not really playable right now, and this could help them out.

Would Dread Return be fine without Grave-Troll and Faithless Looting?

Is Blazing Shoal alright? It seems like another glass cannon style combo deck like Neobrand. It cannot even kill turn 1 like Neobrand can, but turn 2 at the earliest. Is this something to worry about? Infect can currently kill turn 2 as it is.

Is Dark Depths alright to have in the format without Crop Rotation and fast mana like Mox Diamond, Lotus Petal, Elvish Spirit Guide? You still have the turn 1 urborg into thoughtseize turn 2 dark depths hexmage combo. Would this be an acceptable power level for modern? Crop Rotation not being legal makes the deck a LOT weaker.

Would Seething Song do anything if it were unbanned now? Only really storm can use it, and that deck can already win on turn 3 uninterrupted. Song would not speed the deck up any more, but would it increase the consistency?
Here's the thing, I don't think there's anything positive to be gained by unbanning cards that only create unfair decks, like Glimpse, Dread Return, Blazing Shoal, Dark Depths, and Seething Song. This is the lesson we learned when they unbanned GGT. It was fine at first, and did nothing for like a year and a half, and then it got broken by new cards and had to be re-banned. Take Blazing Shoal, for instance. There's a good chance it's unplayable in Modern right now. In which case, we gain nothing by unbanning it. On the other hand, if it is playable, then it's almost certainly doing something busted that's violating the turn 4 rule. That's what the card is designed to do. There's not really a world where Blazing Shoal is a playable card in Modern and it has a healthy effect on the format. So, it's not worth ever unbanning. All those other cards you mentioned are in the same boat.
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Post by Zorakkiller » 2 years ago

well said, when discussing unbaning one should ask what are the incentives, what's the ideal scenario and what are the risks? this is why we had such a clamoring for a sfm unban. gsz checks all these boxes too which is why it is now getting more of a push to be unbanned

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 2 years ago

I don't think he came off aggressively. It's just that many people feel that Preordain would be the hidden "boogeyman" of the format and that reality is just not true - not in the slightest. Like many have echoed, it's barely better than some of the cantrips that we already have.

Also no one has really answered me on the fact that Preordain and Ponder were both banned at the same time for decks that ended up having even more cards banned eventually, namely Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Blazing Shoal, Gitaxian Probe, and Splinter Twin. Those were the strategies that Preordain enabled (much less so than Ponder IMO) and the cards that they have currently banned right now. This is not to mention that Modern has become more powerful over the years, even if the Looting ban slowed that tremendously.

I know some are tired about my quest to get Preordain unbanned. Maybe I shouldn't even care anymore? I was planning on trying it in Grixis Grishoalbrand, but now with the much superior Faithless Looting banned, that deck is pretty dead. I completely feel idSurge when he could barely care less about Preordain. Until there really is a super strong cantrip like Ponder unbanned, the format still will barely see a blip (with Preordain). I am starting to feel like that, but then again I'm glad I never fully lost faith in WotC for Stoneforge Mystic - yes, maybe I lost faith about 90%, but I still kind of hung in there, lol.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 2 years ago

ElectricEye wrote:
2 years ago
Some musings on the banned list:

I think Green Sun's Zenith will be the next safe unban. It's in a similar camp to Stoneforge where it was banned almost immediately in the format's existence.

Birthing Pod / Splinter Twin / Punishing fire might be okay as well down the road, although fire and pod tend to make for boring gameplay. Twin seems easy enough to play around.

If Mox Opal proves problematic down the road, I can see it being swapped with the 5 artifact lands as well, but I don't think all 6 can be legal at the same time. Also, would KCI be able to be unbanned without Mox Opal as well?

Would Glimpse of Nature be okay, or they don't want to risk anything here? Elves are not really playable right now, and this could help them out.

Would Dread Return be fine without Grave-Troll and Faithless Looting?

Is Blazing Shoal alright? It seems like another glass cannon style combo deck like Neobrand. It cannot even kill turn 1 like Neobrand can, but turn 2 at the earliest. Is this something to worry about? Infect can currently kill turn 2 as it is.

Is Dark Depths alright to have in the format without Crop Rotation and fast mana like Mox Diamond, Lotus Petal, Elvish Spirit Guide? You still have the turn 1 urborg into thoughtseize turn 2 dark depths hexmage combo. Would this be an acceptable power level for modern? Crop Rotation not being legal makes the deck a LOT weaker.

Would Seething Song do anything if it were unbanned now? Only really storm can use it, and that deck can already win on turn 3 uninterrupted. Song would not speed the deck up any more, but would it increase the consistency?
100% there with you on Green Sun's Zenith.

With Twin and Pod, I don't think it's "boring game play," at least in my opinion. The matches I played against Pod were some of the most interesting, intricate matches I've played. With Twin, it could be like that too, but mostly Combo vs. Twin did not actually lead to interesting matches that often (since I was usually on Combo). With Punishing Fire, I could see it getting like that, even if I'm not totally sure.

Regarding the artifact lands and KCI, I'd rather Mox Opal exists. But there is a point there that Whirza can operate at a high level, but some of the other artifact enablers are banned. I guess it just depends on what Wizards wants the format to look like.

I think Dread Return is fine, but I doubt Wizards will give it a chance. It is in a similar boat to Bridge from Below - I just don't think they want to take a chance and have to worry about future Standard or MH printings.

You have a good point on Blazing Shoal. With Scale Up, I think for sure that Blazing Shoal hasn't proven to be stronger. We have to remember that those Infect decks that had Blazing Shoal also had Ponder, Preordain, and Git Probe.

Dark Depths is definitely one I personally don't want to see. I played in those formats in Extended. They devolved into UB 12 discard spells, Bitterblossom, Repeal, and the Combo. There really wasn't much of a reason to play much else. Bitterblossom and Repeal being super good because they chump or "kill" the token...

With Seething Song, I have been vocal about wanting it back. But I think it's another card that Wizards just doesn't want to have to deal with. It's easier for them to leave it banned than figure out if it actually makes Storm much stronger or not. As for people saying it doesn't create "interesting" decks, it could help decks like AIR (All In Red) or Enduring Ideal. AIR was a player in Extended and mostly dead in Modern, unless you consider Mono Red Prison as our form of AIR. But then again, these are not fair strategies, so they are going to take a seat to most "fair" cards that could be unbanned like Green Sun's Zenith.
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Post by Zorakkiller » 2 years ago

what does unbaning preordain do for the format? to me there is zero upside. it's not gonna create any new decks or bring back ones that have fallen out of favor. I just cant get behind it when are much better unban candidates

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 2 years ago

Zorakkiller wrote:
2 years ago
what does unbaning preordain do for the format? to me there is zero upside. it's not gonna create any new decks or bring back ones that have fallen out of favor. I just cant get behind it when are much better unban candidates
It could bring back traditional Storm (non Lotus Field) to Tier 2, lol.
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Post by Zorakkiller » 2 years ago

how we know that storm hasn't just evolved into twiddle storm? it's also a little early to be assigning tiers in this brand new modern.

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Post by tronix » 2 years ago

id imagine even the gifts storm shell stands to improve in position, regaining some of the ground it lost now that the lootings ban has effectively reset the format.

hard to tell if the twiddle storm iteration is just better, or at least better in enough cases to qualify as the default shell. though i will say i can appreciate the innovation and brewing required to find such a build that breaks away from the typical UR rituals + manamorphose stuff storm has subsisted on since...basically forever.
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Post by deimos035 » 2 years ago

Is Twiddle Storm that much better than gifts? I'm actually curious, because I've been playing around with traditional storm for few months now.

As for the unbans, GSZ is really appealing and would be nice to have it, I'm not sure though if Dread Return is a major offender on the banlist, especially that looting is gone, so there is not so many effective ways of dropping it into graveyard early.

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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 2 years ago

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Ah yes classic gkourou. Making up stuff. Taking potshots and ad homineming against people with differing view points.

Literally nobody said SFM won't be played in UW, Many people said it would create different forms of UW.

Hilariously enough, you're not parroting LSV now that he was wrong about SFM being too dangerous. Yes he definitely lacks the understanding of modern, hah.
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Post by tronix » 2 years ago

deimos035 wrote:
2 years ago
Is Twiddle Storm that much better than gifts? I'm actually curious, because I've been playing around with traditional storm for few months now.

As for the unbans, GSZ is really appealing and would be nice to have it, I'm not sure though if Dread Return is a major offender on the banlist, especially that looting is gone, so there is not so many effective ways of dropping it into graveyard early.
from what ive seen twiddle storm is still in its formative stage, but has been gaining traction as lists gets refined. i think anyone would be hard pressed to present a case for the shell being outright better than gifts; which can only really be determined with results.

comparing lists id imagine the distinction would probably come down to consistency and resilience to disruption. the addition of gifts made performing the combo nearly deterministic given a couple conditions are met. so giving that up and going hard mode chaining spells means fizzling more often. using lands to generate mana, less reliance on creature cost reducers, and fewer interactions in the GY is a recipe to dodge disruption.
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Post by deimos035 » 2 years ago

tronix wrote:
2 years ago
from what ive seen twiddle storm is still in its formative stage, but has been gaining traction as lists gets refined. i think anyone would be hard pressed to present a case for the shell being outright better than gifts; which can only really be determined with results.

comparing lists id imagine the distinction would probably come down to consistency and resilience to disruption. the addition of gifts made performing the combo nearly deterministic given a couple conditions are met. so giving that up and going hard mode chaining spells means fizzling more often. using lands to generate mana, less reliance on creature cost reducers, and fewer interactions in the GY is a recipe to dodge disruption.
I'll give it a spin then, consistency was my concern ever since I bought the deck, thank you.

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Post by Ym1r » 2 years ago

True-Name Nemesis wrote:
2 years ago
Literally nobody said SFM won't be played in UW, Many people said it would create different forms of UW.
This is not true, a lot of people in the threads of the MTGSalvation forum had made statements that "whoever says that SFM will be played in UW control has no idea how the card is played" etc. The fact of the matter is, and even though we don't have the best shell yet, that a LOT of people are slotting SFM right into UW Control. If you see the UW/SFM control lists, they just cut Narset (3x), 1-2 Supreme verdicts, and usually the 1-off Condemn, to fit in the 6 card package. So, not calling anyone anything, but UW Control DOES play SFM as of now. What will happen in the future we don't know, but if you go look at the archives of MTGS, there have definitely been statements that this would not happen and it did.
True-Name Nemesis wrote:
2 years ago
Hilariously enough, you're not parroting LSV now that he was wrong about SFM being too dangerous. Yes he definitely lacks the understanding of modern, hah.
Generally saying that pros or Wizards lack "fundamental understanding" of modern is wrong. Pros and Wizards can, of course be wrong. But people who manage the format (well imho), or win pro tours in this format, is really difficult to claim that they lack a "fundamental" understanding, and one would have to substantiate the argument quite a bit to be able to support it.

In this case yes, LSV was wrong. He did say in his own show, however, that he is ready to admit the fact that he may be wrong. This is what happens when you have hot takes. Sometimes you will be wrong and you should be ready to admit it.

In the case of Wizards and Aaron who made the statement about SFM and UW, well it seems like Aaron was right, it does slot right into the UW control dekc, but then it doesn't give it a huge power spike (if it does at all). As such, they probably could had unbanned her earlier. But Aaron clearly doesn't have a "fundamental lack of understanding".
Counter, draw a card.

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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 2 years ago

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gkourou wrote:
2 years ago
True-Name Nemesis wrote:
2 years ago
Ah yes classic gkourou. Making up stuff. Taking potshots and ad homineming against people with differing view points.

Literally nobody said SFM won't be played in UW, Many people said it would create different forms of UW.

Hilariously enough, you're not parroting LSV now that he was wrong about SFM being too dangerous. Yes he definitely lacks the understanding of modern, hah.
We dont know much about the current modern format or the role of sfm in that one. GGT was super safe at first also. While sfm is not a ggt unfair type of card, that responses seem at least weird.

I will pm you with different quotes then. People said its not going to be played at uw control. I dont want more disputes with you, i already get it that you are not operating in good faith and trying to get an aggressive response, not going to happen, sorry. When I receive messages like that, the only solution is the blocklist. Its literally the best way to avoid infractions for both of us, since you are so aggressive and ironic towards me.
Thanks for the talk.
How ironic of you to say I'm not operating in good faith when you've accused me multiple times of twisting your words with no way to back up those accusations.

Every single time I asked you to show me where I twisted your words, you wussed out. But fortunately for you, accusations without backup aren't against the rules.

So go ahead then, block me and then run away like you always do instead of backing up your stand.

You? PM me with quotes? Hahaha I'd like to see that actually happen.

Hypocrite.
Ym1r wrote:
2 years ago
The fact of the matter is, and even though we don't have the best shell yet, that a LOT of people are slotting SFM right into UW Control. If you see the UW/SFM control lists, they just cut Narset (3x), 1-2 Supreme verdicts, and usually the 1-off Condemn, to fit in the 6 card package. So, not calling anyone anything, but UW Control DOES play SFM as of now.
I will readily admit, that there may be some confusion due to the difference in naming conventions because the UW SFM builds now play and are built very similarly to the UWr Midrange lists from 2013/2014. Those decks were also almost exact copies of UWr Control outside of the inclusions of proactive threats like Geist of Saint Traft and Thundermaw Hellkite.

If something that would have been classed as Midrange 5 years ago counts as control now then so be it. I am wrong and UW 'Control' plays SFM. My mistake for using an outdated naming conventions and classifications.
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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

gkourou wrote:
2 years ago
but UW wants to actively just put 6-7 slots in it and call it a day.
This is not a universally-shared ideal whatsoever. Just because you can and just because some people do does not mean whatsoever that it's the best choice or that all UW control shells "want" to be doing that. Much like all the stubborn people jamming bad decks, people will just play what they like and play what they own. People who own SFMs are going to jam it and try it whether it's good or not, and this game has enough built-in variance to randomly reward some of those people some of the time. But citing a single decklist from the first Open (which Stoneforge was more or less crushed all-around) seems like a bit of a stretch to support this claim that "UW control definitely wants to be doing this."

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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 2 years ago

gkourou wrote:
2 years ago
Ym1r , again, strongly agreed.

This is a typical uw control list with just 6 slots in it. No finks, no restos, no hellkites, not anything. AF knew what he was talking about. This does not mean thats a reason not to unban sfm, but UW wants to actively just put 6-7 slots in it and call it a day. This also does not mean that other, more midrangey lists wont exist.

http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/132444
This is a fair take, but it's still highly debatable and contentious because when I look online at the recent post-unban Modern Challenges and MCQs I can find just as many, if not more UWx blade builds that would be classified as Midrange.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=181

And this is probably where the lines get blurry and most of the debate/confusion comes from.
In 2013/14, pure UWR Control tend to just run just: 4 snaps + 1 Clique as threats , though there were builds that ran with a Resto-Kiki Combo
The UWR Midrange decks of the era, tended to run: 10-15. 4 snaps + a combination of Geist, Cliques, Restoration Angels and singleton T-Maws.
Note that we also didn't have good blue Planeswalkers in this era.

Fast forward to current time and we have:
Pre-unban UW Control: 4 Snaps + a combination of 6-8 planeswalkers.
Post-unban UW Control: 4 Snaps + 4 SFM + 1 Clique + Batterskull as well I guess.
Post-unban UW Midrange: 4 Snaps + 4 SFM + a combination or choice of Geist, Spell Queller, Clique + Batterskull
If we look at a different format: Legacy
UWx Miracles (Hard Control): Typically up to 5 of a combination of Snapcaster Mage + Monastery Mentor, + a combination of JTMS and Narset.
UWx Blade (Midrange): 4 SFM + 3 Snaps + 3 TNN
When you put the decks' 'number of threats' into context like that across the different eras and formats, you can see why many would see it as UWx Blade as Midrange rather than control.

So what is the line that divides UWx Blade into control & midrange? Since the number of threats is relatively close (10 vs 12-14) VS in 13/14 (5-6 vs 12-14) and Legacy (5-6 vs 11-12). The spell and Planeswalker suite are almost exactly the same.

Does my control deck then become a midrange deck if I wanted to .. lets say tech a singleton Geist or an extra Clique maindeck for matchups where I need to close fast?

To many of us who played Modern in 13/14 or have experience playing UWx Blade in Legacy. The UW Control with SFM is almost exactly what a Blue Midrange deck would look like. The distinction between the control and midrange was VERY clear.

Edit
TL:DR - contending that the current Iteration of 'UW Control' with SFM is closer to midrange than control based on classification from the past and Legacy as well as its much more proactive style of play.
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Post by robertleva » 2 years ago

Ym1r wrote:
2 years ago
True-Name Nemesis wrote:
2 years ago
Hilariously enough, you're not parroting LSV now that he was wrong about SFM being too dangerous. Yes he definitely lacks the understanding of modern, hah.
Generally saying that pros or Wizards lack "fundamental understanding" of modern is wrong. Pros and Wizards can, of course be wrong. But people who manage the format (well imho), or win pro tours in this format, is really difficult to claim that they lack a "fundamental" understanding, and one would have to substantiate the argument quite a bit to be able to support it.

In this case yes, LSV was wrong. He did say in his own show, however, that he is ready to admit the fact that he may be wrong. This is what happens when you have hot takes. Sometimes you will be wrong and you should be ready to admit it.

In the case of Wizards and Aaron who made the statement about SFM and UW, well it seems like Aaron was right, it does slot right into the UW control dekc, but then it doesn't give it a huge power spike (if it does at all). As such, they probably could had unbanned her earlier. But Aaron clearly doesn't have a "fundamental lack of understanding".
Actually True Name Nemesis is correct here (imho). Pro's really just do whatever is trending, and thus create self-fulfilling prophecies / feedback loops. People call this a "stable meta". It's all non-sense, Meta is a combination of power and popularity. Ignoring the latter's influence on the decks played by the masses is what really blinds a person to what Modern has to offer.
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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 2 years ago

robertleva wrote:
2 years ago
Ym1r wrote:
2 years ago
True-Name Nemesis wrote:
2 years ago
Hilariously enough, you're not parroting LSV now that he was wrong about SFM being too dangerous. Yes he definitely lacks the understanding of modern, hah.
Generally saying that pros or Wizards lack "fundamental understanding" of modern is wrong. Pros and Wizards can, of course be wrong. But people who manage the format (well imho), or win pro tours in this format, is really difficult to claim that they lack a "fundamental" understanding, and one would have to substantiate the argument quite a bit to be able to support it.

In this case yes, LSV was wrong. He did say in his own show, however, that he is ready to admit the fact that he may be wrong. This is what happens when you have hot takes. Sometimes you will be wrong and you should be ready to admit it.

In the case of Wizards and Aaron who made the statement about SFM and UW, well it seems like Aaron was right, it does slot right into the UW control dekc, but then it doesn't give it a huge power spike (if it does at all). As such, they probably could had unbanned her earlier. But Aaron clearly doesn't have a "fundamental lack of understanding".
Actually True Name Nemesis is correct here (imho). Pro's really just do whatever is trending, and thus create self-fulfilling prophecies / feedback loops. People call this a "stable meta". It's all non-sense, Meta is a combination of power and popularity. Ignoring the latter's influence on the decks played by the masses is what really blinds a person to what Modern has to offer.
To address this with no disrespect to pros - the bolded portion is likely true in non-rotating/eternal formats.

In standard formats, we see with regularity pro teams break out a new deck and dominate a tournament.

Yet rarely do we see pros pioneer anything in Modern or Legacy. New decks and tech often grow from the community and deck specialists. Playskill aside, most pro players are far from subject matter experts in Modern, at least not to the extent that they are in Standard or Limited.

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Post by Ym1r » 2 years ago

True-Name Nemesis wrote:
2 years ago

Yet rarely do we see pros pioneer anything in Modern or Legacy. New decks and tech often grow from the community and deck specialists. Playskill aside, most pro players are far from subject matter experts in Modern, at least not to the extent that they are in Standard or Limited.
I generally agree with this, especially with the clarification that this is not the case with all pros. Gabriel Nassif, for example, is both an expert in the Modern format, as well as a pioneer when it comes to decks (see recent Soulherder deck).

However, there is a huge range of possibilities between an expert and someone who "lacks fundamental knowledge". I would readily agree that most pros will just pick up and play the flavor of the month, or whatever beats the flavor of the month, because they might not have the luxury (or the will) to invest into developing a specific deck to perfection. They would, however, put hours into playtesting said flavor of the month if they are to bring it to a new tournament.

In addition there HAVE been cases where pros pioneered decks, at least on the high level of play. Eldrazi (Pro tour eldrazi winter), Jund Death's Shadow (can't remember which GP it was that there was a team all bringing JDS and breaking said GP), KCI (Matt Nass).

So I think the reality lies somewhere in the middle. Yeah, there are a lot of posters in this forum, or on facebook, that I would readily value their opinion higher than most pro players regarding modern. Francesco Neo Amati, for example, is someone who I would see as THE UWx midrange expert, no matter what any other pro would say. But also, if pros are winning, it's because they also do understand to some level what the format is about and they are doing it. Not just because they can play cards in the right order out of some spiritual inspiration.

So yeah, I think we are generally in agreement. I just dislike extreme statements of authority (not necessarily from you) like "X knows fundamentally nothing about modern"
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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 2 years ago

Ym1r wrote:
2 years ago
In addition there HAVE been cases where pros pioneered decks, at least on the high level of play. Eldrazi (Pro tour eldrazi winter), Jund Death's Shadow (can't remember which GP it was that there was a team all bringing JDS and breaking said GP), KCI (Matt Nass).
Eh I'm not so sure. Eldrazi was pretty obviously broken, not sure if they really 'pioneered' anything there. I guess technically they came up with the build that performs best in the Eldrazi mirror.

JDS is one that can clearly be attributed to the work of a pro team. No disagreement here.

KCI was already a thing for a pretty long time and it got a boost from some new cards at the time, my timelines are a bit murky here but I'm pretty certain Matt Nass did not pioneer the deck, but he was certainly responsible for putting it on the map by playing it at a very high level. Pretty similar to what Sam Black did for a period with Lantern Control. Ross Merriam with Izzet Phoenix would be another example of this.

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 2 years ago

JDS was broken online, and picked up by pros.

KCI was not broken by a pro either.

Eldrazi had one week I believe online, and is the only one that pros displayed first, but that's only because they had the opportunity before any MTGO events.

These people are not savants. They just play a lot. If you want innovation, you find it on mtgo.
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Post by Wraithpk » 2 years ago

People are certainly jamming a 6 card SFM package into UW Control, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Every time I watch a stream or vid of someone playing a list like that, you watch them with dead equipment on the board and no creatures to equip it to, or they draw one of the equipment so their SFMs are all dead draws after the first one. It doesn't make UW Control better to cut your Narsets and 3 other pieces of interaction to play SFM when you don't have enough bodies to utilize the equipment. Legacy Stoneblade plays 11 to 13 creatures, with 3 of those being a sticky threat in True-Name Nemesis, and they have better cantrips to find bodies to carry a Jitte. All these people trying to play with just 8 creatures and relying on the germ token to be enough are making a mistake. Either play a stronger control game and stick to the planeswalker package, or if you want to play with SFM you should build your deck to take advantage of SFM's strengths.
Modern
ubr Grixis Shadow ubr
uwg Bant Stoneblade uwg
gbr Jund gbr

Pioneer
urIzzet Phoenixur
rMono-Red Aggror
uwAzorius Controluw

Commander
bg Meren of Clan Nel Toth bg

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tronix
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Post by tronix » 2 years ago

so basically youre saying UW needs to make squadron hawk work at any cost. 2 mana and you get all those birds. its like treasure cruise all over again
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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 2 years ago

If I was so inclined, I would be playing it with Geist, Queller, and T3feri.
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