[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Arkmer
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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

I'm hearing some cool murmurs Mardu-Something-Blade as a replacement for full on Mardu Pyromancer. Some have brought up using both Pyromancer and Stone Blade package, but I think it might be a bit much. The idea might pull me away from Blue for a few nights of Modern. The only thing I'm wondering is if Goblin Engineer has a place here. Probably not, but there's options.

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Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

Wraithpk wrote:
2 years ago
So, the real question is:


OG SFM, or GP promo SFM?
yeah, that's a good question. ^^

also.., OG Batterskull or GP Batterskull?

Just woke up, it was 11 last night when I saw the unban. hehe ^^
Still in a celebratory mood, it feels like Christmas has come very early.

Will spend some time in the day thinking if it would be worth adding the SFM package to Mardu Pyro, uw... or whatever white deck I own that could benefit from it. :)

Also wondering if Manriki-Gusari could see some modern play if SFM decks become succesful enough?
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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
2 years ago
Wraithpk wrote:
2 years ago
So, the real question is:


OG SFM, or GP promo SFM?
yeah, that's a good question. ^^

also.., OG Batterskull or GP Batterskull?

Just woke up, it was 11 last night when I saw the unban. hehe ^^
Still in a celebratory mood, it feels like Christmas has come very early.

Will spend some time in the day thinking if it would be worth adding the SFM package to Mardu Pyro, uw... or whatever white deck I own that could benefit from it. :)

Also wondering if Manriki-Gusari could see some modern play if SFM decks become succesful enough?
I'm doing GP foils for both, (lol $10 price tag 3 years ago), and something something Esper, Unearth, Mentor, Lingering Souls, something something...

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Post by rcwraspy » 2 years ago

This was a great update for multiple formats, including Legacy which didn't get touched. I'm a fan overall.

SFM unban. I have argued against an unban of SFM but am happy to see it in the format. I want more midrange games and think SFM will help bring that about.

Hagaak ban. Yes, obviously needed. Not much to say about it really.

Faithless Looting ban. I'm honestly still surprised that this card has been as played as it has been the past few (couple?) years. I guess card disadvantage isn't a disadvantage at all if you make heavy use of the graveyard, get to sculpt your hand, and oh by the way you can flash it back if you want. Faithless Looting is a loser of circumstance here. If it weren't for powerful cards that help abuse it, like Phoenix and Hogaak, it would barely be playable, and playable only by a lesser powered Dredge and Vengevine deck. However I suppose this as exactly their point. They want to continue to print strong gy strategy cards and Looting will just get more powerful - similar to the Pod and (ironically) SFM arguments of the past.

I'm optimistic about the new Modern metagame. I still think Looting is an iffy call, Probe was a bad call, and Twin, Preordain, GSZ and Punishing Fire are worth keeping an eye on, metagame-dependent.

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Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

cfusionpm wrote:
2 years ago
I'm doing GP foils for both, (lol $10 price tag 3 years ago), and something something Esper, Unearth, Mentor, Lingering Souls, something something...
we're same, i'm also using the GP versions. By luck that I tried testing batterskull in ponza several months ago. Which is why I have two gp foils. :)

and the GP foil Batterskulls were only 10-15 at SCG until last night. However, when I woke up in the morning.. they were already updated to 49.99.

I also wonder which swords would go up in price with this announcement?
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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

I feel like I need this in my signature.....
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Post by robertleva » 2 years ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
2 years ago
Please, no more Twin talk. There's more to this thread than Twin, especially in the wake of this update. I don't think we should be talking about any unbans or bans period at this point. At least not for many months.

I'm much more interested in discussing where the metagame might evolve. We have a few top-tier decks which will remain strong, even as decks shift from GY hate to more artifact and big mana hate. Jund will help regulate random nonsense, and will in turn be regulated by Tron/Amulet/Titanshift/etc. Fast decks and UW Control should be able to hold down the big mana share (at least, Tron). UW Control itself will lose to Jund and stuff like E-Tron. We'll also see Urza decks, Affinity, and Hardened Scales somewhere in that mix, plus Burn variants probably putting up middling but influential performance. Overall, a cool picture if it plays out.
I realize its a non issue for most people but 8Rack made out huge with this BNR. Bridge looting and hogaak all gone... 8Rack can go on offensive once more.
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Post by Bearscape » 2 years ago

I'm curious to see what looting decks adapt and which die.

UR Phoenix I am fairly certain will stick around. Maybe it can play Izzet Charm again, where looting is still hiding, plus the other two modes aren't irrelevant. This was in my opinion the most interesting looting deck gameplay wise so I hope it sticks.

Dredge and Mardu I am not sure of. Dredge does want a turn 1 enabler, maybe people start Tome Scouring themselves. I almost feel like this ban is a good thing for Mardu, as it gets all the gravehate off its back and I think is fair enough that slowing down to play a cmc2 enabler isn't the end of the world. It also got SFM to go with its Lingering Souls tokens

The fast explosive decks like monored phoenix and grishoalbrand are probably gone. Seems like a good time to buy some Arclight Phoenixes

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Post by Simto » 2 years ago

Bearscape wrote:
2 years ago
I'm curious to see what looting decks adapt and which die.

UR Phoenix I am fairly certain will stick around. Maybe it can play Izzet Charm again, where looting is still hiding, plus the other two modes aren't irrelevant. This was in my opinion the most interesting looting deck gameplay wise so I hope it sticks.

Dredge and Mardu I am not sure of. Dredge does want a turn 1 enabler, maybe people start Tome Scouring themselves. I almost feel like this ban is a good thing for Mardu, as it gets all the gravehate off its back and I think is fair enough that slowing down to play a cmc2 enabler isn't the end of the world. It also got SFM to go with its Lingering Souls tokens

The fast explosive decks like monored phoenix and grishoalbrand are probably gone. Seems like a good time to buy some Arclight Phoenixes
I hope Mardu Pyromancer survives. It's such a cool deck and really fun to play against. Sad it got caught in the crossfire, two mana enablers are probably way too slow still.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 2 years ago

I tested Burning Inquiry in Dredge and have concluded that its definitely NOT a good substitute for FL. Thought Scour is too hard to fit in a 19 land manabase so Insolent Neonate seems the way to go. The deck will definitely survive.

I tested 4 Izzet Charm in UR Phoenix and no surprise here, the deck lost its explosive first 2 turns. However it did gain a very flexible counterspell/draw/removal which in a slower meta is very viable so I definitely would put it in over Tormenting Voice. The deck is still very playable. In a meta more focused on the battlefield Thing and Izzet Charm seem strong.

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Post by pizzap » 2 years ago

I always read Looting as: Draw two cards for one hand and put two cards in your other hand. Flashback 2R. As far as I know it was the only red card that puts the draws before a non-random discard. I will miss it in my brews, but I assume it was just a little too fast for the format. However, 5 years ago I would never have guessed this card would be banned at some point.

It feels like WotC wanted to slow down the format as a whole. For this I would have known some other obvious ban candidates which seem to have escaped for now. Do they expect they can be kept in check because now there is less GY hate needed? I guess time will tell.

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Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

Bearscape wrote:
2 years ago
I almost feel like this ban is a good thing for Mardu, as it gets all the gravehate off its back and I think is fair enough that slowing down to play a cmc2 enabler isn't the end of the world. It also got SFM to go with its Lingering Souls tokens

The fast explosive decks like monored phoenix and grishoalbrand are probably gone. Seems like a good time to buy some Arclight Phoenixes
referring to the part I put in bold. As a mardu mancer player, it's one relief for me.
Maybe can use Bedlam Reveler again, because the gy clearers would be decreasing. And people would have more artifact removers instead in their sideboards, because the kor girl is back in town.

would also be testing several cards in the next few days, on what would be a satisfactory looting replacement.
cfusionpm wrote:
2 years ago
I feel like I need this in my signature.....
lolsig.PNG
tiago on steroids. nice edit :grin:

well, on a more serious talk. Is the bg sword really effective? Have never used it, I often use the ru and bw.. sometimes the rw too.
Last edited by The Fluff 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Bearscape » 2 years ago

iTaLenTZ wrote:
2 years ago
I tested Burning Inquiry in Dredge and have concluded that its definitely NOT a good substitute for FL. Thought Scour is too hard to fit in a 19 land manabase so Insolent Neonate seems the way to go. The deck will definitely survive.

I tested 4 Izzet Charm in UR Phoenix and no surprise here, the deck lost its explosive first 2 turns. However it did gain a very flexible counterspell/draw/removal which in a slower meta is very viable so I definitely would put it in over Tormenting Voice. The deck is still very playable. In a meta more focused on the battlefield Thing and Izzet Charm seem strong.
I want to say Phoenix doesn't really *need* the explosive turn 2, it has plenty going on beyond that. Recursive phoenixes are still good a turn later, TiTi stays relatively the same, Finale of Promise is still absurd value, Aria of Flame still ends the game in two turns. For Dredge, Neonate and Shriekhorn combined seem good, but I feel the loss of Looting is more devastating.
The Fluff wrote:
2 years ago

well, on a more serious talk. Is the bg sword really effective? Have never used it, I often use the rg and bw.. sometimes the rw too.
Personally, I'm torn between Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of Light and Shadow; or maybe you run both if you have room. SoFaI just provides absurd value with every hit, and SoLaS protects against all the top tier removal in Modern.

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Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

[mention]Bearscape[/mention]

Made a typing error. What I mean is ur, not rg.

Planning to run both SoFai and Solas. Solas also became a little better because the gy removals are going to decrease, has a more decent chance to return creatures with it to hand.
___________

I think Dredge will be fine. They still have the powerful Cathartic Reunion as an enabler.
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 2 years ago

Here we are, boys. I was running Legacy waiting for the banlist. Stoneblade will be the new hotness, I hope it will work. If it doesn't, I will die playing cool cards at least.

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Post by izzetmage » 2 years ago

There was an article on how UR Phoenix is not actually a Phoenix deck but a Thing in the Ice deck. We've seen Thing decks T8 GPs before - Jeskai Thing/Pyromancer Ascension and UR Kiln Fiend. Admittedly those decks had Probe in them, but I don't think this is the last we'll see of Thing in the Ice. They'll just drop the Phoenix and Looting slots for some other wincon like Ascension or Aria of Flame.

Mono-red has it tougher as Looting is also critical in feeding Bedlam Reveler. Maybe they can switch to The Flame of Keld as hand refill.

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Post by ZephyrScarlet » 2 years ago

So do we drop Arclight Phoenix entirely and adopt a Titi + Aria plan and go Bedlam Reveler for value? I already have a playset of Reveler ready just in case, but I think I'll wait and try an Izzet Charm + Lightning Axe plan first. Discarding two Phoenixes on turn 1 and reanimating them on 2 was the nut draw anyways, so I think while we're cut short that avenue, those two spells can still make the deck compete. Charm also conveniently hits Cathartic Reunion, Wrenn and Six, Thopter Foundry, Stoneforge Mystic, Karn Liberated and a plethora of other important things.

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 2 years ago

Probably the deck needs more interaction, now that it's going to be slower. Thing and Drake as beaters, Aria as backup threat, Force of Negation and Spell Pierce in the mix.

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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 2 years ago

gkourou wrote:
2 years ago
Again, blake Rasmussen in a twitch stream recently said twin's play patterns were obnoxious and when it comes to twin players he does not sympathize with them having their deck nuked out of orbit(I could find the link if you want to)
They just see twin as a monster that does not let you play 4 drops and 5 drops.
I have no idea who this Blake Rasmussen is but video that gkourou linked from the widely considered 'golden age of Modern' proves that twin isnt some monster that makes 4 and 5 drops unplayable.
gkourou wrote:
2 years ago
That said, the announcement was great. There is a strong chance we finally get back to 2015 modern kind of format, where cards like remand, or strong 3-4-5 drops become a reality again.
This comes to mind:
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to make this about Twin, just using it as an example to point out that WoTC employee hot takes can often be inconsistent, hypocritical and without basis.
Let's keep that in mind the next time anyone decides to base their arguments on 'because WoTC said so'.

Btw gkourou, I'm using your quote about what Rasmussen (not you) said because it provides context to the point I want to make. Making this clear just in case you feel like accusing me of twisting your words again.

Edit: Anyway, it's nice to see the Modern community buzzing with activity again. Discord and FB groups are abuzz with brewing (SFM decks or otherwise), positive energy and discussion on how to take their decks forward. Other than the 1 guy I know who thinks SFM is going to be more warping than Hogaak :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: .

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Post by drmarkb » 2 years ago

gkourou wrote:
2 years ago
My worry now is the same people that used to say ban looting turn to ban stirrings or opal now that tron and whirza already became two of the very best decks.
Also there is another fear that the combination of the looting ban and the sfm unban reduces the Diversity instead of increasing it and SFM homogenizing too many cards.
That said, the announcement was great. There is a strong chance we finally get back to 2015 modern kind of format, where cards like remand, or strong 3-4-5 drops become a reality again.
This comes to mind:
Completely agree and then some on the part I have highlighted in bold- I know that one day they will be going after Opal or Stirrings, but you will be safe for at least 12 Months, unless the next set contains some serious gas and synergy with them. Eventually they may come for them- the ban chaps and chapesses tend to want everything banned until their deck is no 1. Opal in particular would have gone if it were common, as it is it is reprint equity.

I agree with your second statement too- it might happen- at least in some people's eyes.

I am personally never looking forward to Remand, however,- if 2cc tempo countering is good there is a good chance we see more Cavern of Souls tribal and Aether Vial decks- that I personally find a bit samey- especially with SFM about- or it means that there is another turn 3 Storm deck out there that remands your first play and goes off- in which case the ban wagon will be off again. But I know what you mean.

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Post by folding_music » 2 years ago

I only watch coverage and don't play competitively so I'm only speaking from a fan's perspective, but don't you think Bant Spirits will make a reappearance? If Phoenix is getting slower, Dredge is gonna be less impressive now (and so will Hollow One if that returns), Humans being a bit of a mirror etc, maybe the time's right! Could be running Worship in the side and dedicating the rest of the board to deal with decks that run cards with the name "Urza" on them?

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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 2 years ago

It's quite possible that Bant Spirits (plus various other decks) can re-emerge as tier 1-2 contenders. It did get some decent upgrades from MH in Force of Negation and Unsettled Mariner.

Bant Spirits could also adopt a stoneforge package to an extent. It does need to maintain a certain velocity of the relevant creature type so I'm not sure how heavily Bant Spirits can commit to a stoneforge package considering how they already run 4 Hierarchs.

On the other hand, MH also introduced a bunch of cards that are very good against Spirits. Chiefly W6 and Plague Engineer. An early W6 can really put a damper on Spirit's board development. I'm relatively confident that Jund is going to be a very difficult match for Bant Spirits.

Jund aside, I think Bant Spirits is going to be pretty decent against most decks.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 2 years ago

Modern's meta will evolve exactly as Legacy did after Wrenn. First everyone wants to play with the new toys so people jumped on Delver. Then people realized they can't beat Wrenn on an equal level playground so they play decks that completely ignore it, hence uninteractive decks. The best decks in Legacy are Red Stompy, Reanimator, TES/ANT, Show and Tell. All decks goldfish to play around Wrenn so best thing is to avoid playing Wrenn,

I see this happening in Modern as well. First everyone wants to play with the new toy Stoneforge Mystic and Jund because it seems very well positioned against it. Then everyone will realize you can't beat Wrenn/Stoneforge on their ground so they play Tron/Amulet/Eldrazi/Valakut/Storm/Ad Nauseum/Urza, hence uninteractive decks that conveniently also ignore Batterskull besides Wrenn. So in the end people won't play Wrenn/Stoneforge and won't play anything that is bad vs Wrenn/Stoneforge.

"For now, I would advise not playing Wrenn and Six or any decks that are weak to it. There's a similar problem in Vintage where blue decks are forced to play a lot of Mental Misstep/Pyroblast maindeck because the format is mostly blue, which in turn makes these decks weak to Workshop decks. A very similar thing is happening in Legacy where Wrenn and Six is extremely powerful against other blue decks because blue vs blue match-ups are often determined by card advantage. In order to beat the Delver or Control mirror, you want as many Wrenn and Six as possible. But the non-blue decks have mostly adjusted and no longer care much about the card. For now, my advice is to stay away from this midrange arms race and find decks with powerful proactive strategies that are naturally good against these blue decks."

Full read: https://www.channelfireball.com/article ... 1565886758

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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

I can see big mana decks being on the rise again as a result of the influx of decks trying to jam SFM right now since it just got unbanned
Now that there's a pretty big shake up in modern hopefully we get to see some of the new stuff from horizons show up more

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Post by Wraithpk » 2 years ago

For anyone interested in talking about UWx Stoneblade builds, I made a thread in the Developing Decks section: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5322&p=17886#p17886
Modern
ubr Grixis Shadow ubr
uwg Bant Stoneblade uwg
gbr Jund gbr

Pioneer
urIzzet Phoenixur
rMono-Red Aggror
uwAzorius Controluw

Commander
bg Meren of Clan Nel Toth bg

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