[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

Archanz
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Post by Archanz » 2 years ago

Quick question: what about the new 10-20 planeswalker decks that are popping up? Do you think we'll see more of them? Personally im not much of a fun, i like when there are 4-6 pw but those numbers are heavily focused about PWS,and most of them play w&6. Saw a jund deck with 4 creatuees and 11 pws :O

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 2 years ago

Do you have a link or a list on these new PW decks?

Also, does anyone have a link or list for a hogaakless hogaak deck that I have heard exists? I looked around and didn't find it.

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Post by drmarkb » 2 years ago

idSurge wrote:
2 years ago


Again though, thats what it would take for me to even consider spending any further time with Modern, and likely Magic at all.

Aug 26th:

Ban: Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
Unban: Splinter Twin, Stoneforge Mystic

Anything less and it's simply not going to be remotely worth my time to play anymore, just to what? Go back to Phoenix/Dredge and now with Urza going off Turn 3? Still needing 4+ GY Hate and now Artifact too? Still not playing the decks I want, chasing 'the next set will fix it!' when cards have no business being banned just sit there?

lol no.
I must admit, even if Twin is fine to unban, I saw so many talentless schmucks build it as their first Modern deck, remand a t3 spell and t4 spell and just win EOT without the other player resolving a spell, or probe people and just win t4, that I never want to see its hairy arse again. People literally picking the deck up and winning events. Probe was a huge culprit, as was a relative lack of 1cc removal. If someone prints a one mana Suppression Field that is hexproof or something I might reconsider, but Twin produced such obnoxious play patterns at the time, I saw it so often, it is just a no, just please no from me. I am not averse to modal decks, and not averse to control decks with a combo- hell I often play Legacy Leyline- Helm/Pox and UW RIP Helm- which are exactly that- control decks that can "just win" - but I am far more comfortable dealing with Phoenix because it has such poor countermagic and is far more hate to reduce the ability of the deck to "just win" and by and large you can cast it without much fear.
I would not be unhappy if WOTC said "OK,some cards are just always going to lead to broken things and constrain us" and axed Looting, Manamorphose and the like to clear out or neuter all the other "can win t3" decks like Dredge, Phoenix, Storms etc, but by and large I don't want a U/R combo control deck in the format when no other colour combos have similar on the spot t4 game ending combos bar devoted druid based ones which are not really in the same bracket and a lot more difficult to set up.
Banned cards that have no business being banned are annoying, but Legacy had Land Tax and Vise banned for literally years for no reason, and still has Mind twist. These things happen, I am far more concerned about stuff getting bans that should not rather than vice versa- Hoogy will surely go- its price indicates that people are factoring in a likely ban. They may take action on Looting judging by the amount of social media activity, but I don't think we will see Pod, others making a return, although at some point SFM might come back as it has never been legal.

WOTC have lost so much good will that bringing back Twin would only lose it more among people like me who hated the deck in the first place, even if it were harmless to bring back. They cannot afford to do that, but they can afford to take a big ban hammer to Hoogy and other targets if they wish, or to unban stuff that has never been seen- bringing back an old bogeyman of the format- no matter how loved by 15% of players- is way too big a risk.

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Post by tronix » 2 years ago

gkourou wrote:
2 years ago
Wizards can not afford having a deck that might hurt Diversity (overall diversity and not the blue one) since modern is so diverse at the moment.
Twin is really a setback and with teferi, time raveler in a jeskai shell is also quite dangerous.
Blake rassmusen pretty much told in a stream that its not happening. We can forget it for good.
cmon man such an incendiary comment is borderline trolling given the cloud of controversy surrounding such topics; especially among members here.

your comment is a fairly good example of how the abstraction we use for convenience on game/format related terms can be misused or misinterpreted to have substance. 'hurts diversity', 'modern is diverse'', 'twin is a setback....quite dangerous'. such claims, even born from an opinion, require some explanation of your reasoning and assumptions youre making.

twin would improve diversity, which is good since modern isnt diverse at the moment. twin would be a boon, and would fall in the bounds for any competitive deck. blake rassmusen is a clown.

glad we cleared that up lol
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Post by idSurge » 2 years ago

drmarkb wrote:
2 years ago
WOTC have lost so much good will that bringing back Twin would only lose it more among people like me who hated the deck in the first place, even if it were harmless to bring back. They cannot afford to do that, but they can afford to take a big ban hammer to Hoogy and other targets if they wish, or to unban stuff that has never been seen- bringing back an old bogeyman of the format- no matter how loved by 15% of players- is way too big a risk.
You are almost certainly correct, and thats why I say there is an element either small, large or inbetween of subjectivity in the ban list, and why its an absolute joke as far as any kind of objective barometer on format health.

I can appreciate your stance against Twin, I really can. Why? Because its a subjective opinion, and subjectively I absolutely loathe Modern as it has been for at least a year. From Tron, to Urza, to Dredge, to Phoenix, the number of decks which display play patterns I actually enjoy taking part of as the opponent are comically small in count.

So really, I get you. I also understand that many people share that view, and can say with 100% certainty that Wizards has people in their employ who feel the same.

All that said though, it just proves my point. The ban list is not about format health, there is a 'feels' element, and as such any talk about Bridge being the wrong ban, or SFM is a fair card, or WHATEVER, are irrelevant.

As long as we are in agreement that the ban list is actually a joke and objective metrics need not be accepted as the end all be all, then ya, I feel you. Twin likely wont come off, and I likely wont be here after 3pm PST, Monday.

Tronix, you are right, it is trolling. I wish I didnt have to see quotes.

I mean if you want to play Twin in UWR, you already have Copy Cat with T3feri (such a great desigh) playing 'Twin' at Sorcery speed as it is. People can do that. Its not Twin, its actually not been good for years and years, never was, but, it can certainly be done now that we have T3feri as a lock piece preventing interactive Magic from being played.
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Post by TheAnnihilator » 2 years ago

gkourou wrote:
2 years ago
Wizards can not afford having a deck that might hurt Diversity (overall diversity and not the blue one) since modern is so diverse at the moment.
This may certainly be true in the eye of WotC. We can't know for sure.
Twin is really a setback
In what ways? This in an interesting claim, but in it's own it's hard to agree with.
and with teferi, time raveler in a jeskai shell is also quite dangerous.
Considering Twin has never been legal with T3feri, I don't see how anyone can know this -- not to mention that there's certainly not enough data to support this claim.
Blake rassmusen pretty much told in a stream that its not happening. We can forget it for good.
Do you have a link by any chance? I haven't heard this.

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Post by Erian Ignis » 2 years ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
2 years ago
Do you have a link or a list on these new PW decks?

Also, does anyone have a link or list for a hogaakless hogaak deck that I have heard exists? I looked around and didn't find it.
I would also be interested in that Hogaakless Hogaak decklist.

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Post by Wraithpk » 2 years ago

drmarkb wrote:
2 years ago
I must admit, even if Twin is fine to unban, I saw so many talentless schmucks build it as their first Modern deck, remand a t3 spell and t4 spell and just win EOT without the other player resolving a spell, or probe people and just win t4, that I never want to see its hairy arse again. People literally picking the deck up and winning events. Probe was a huge culprit, as was a relative lack of 1cc removal. If someone prints a one mana Suppression Field that is hexproof or something I might reconsider, but Twin produced such obnoxious play patterns at the time, I saw it so often, it is just a no, just please no from me. I am not averse to modal decks, and not averse to control decks with a combo- hell I often play Legacy Leyline- Helm/Pox and UW RIP Helm- which are exactly that- control decks that can "just win" - but I am far more comfortable dealing with Phoenix because it has such poor countermagic and is far more hate to reduce the ability of the deck to "just win" and by and large you can cast it without much fear.

WOTC have lost so much good will that bringing back Twin would only lose it more among people like me who hated the deck in the first place, even if it were harmless to bring back. They cannot afford to do that, but they can afford to take a big ban hammer to Hoogy and other targets if they wish, or to unban stuff that has never been seen- bringing back an old bogeyman of the format- no matter how loved by 15% of players- is way too big a risk.
So even though you personally don't like the deck, would you agree that personal feelings should not dictate bans or unbans? Like, I personally despise Tron. I would be glad if it was gone and I never had to play against it again, but I don't think it should actually be banned. You might not like Twin, but a lot of people did, and it's hard to argue that it would even be as good today as it was in 2015.
gkourou wrote:
2 years ago
Wizards can not afford having a deck that might hurt Diversity (overall diversity and not the blue one) since modern is so diverse at the moment.
Twin is really a setback and with teferi, time raveler in a jeskai shell is also quite dangerous.
Blake rassmusen pretty much told in a stream that its not happening. We can forget it for good.
Decks only impact overall format diversity when they take up an abnormally large portion of the meta. Twin was 12% of the meta at its peak, which was less than GBx Midrange at the time, and wasn't more than GDS, Humans, and Izzet Phoenix have been since without eating a ban. It's pretty clear that the bar Twin was banned for passing has been raised since. I agree that Twin shouldn't be unbanned if it would still be 12% of the meta, but that just seems so unlikely today with how many different powerful strategies there are, especially among the blue decks.
Erian Ignis wrote:
2 years ago

I would also be interested in that Hogaakless Hogaak decklist.
It was pretty much just the current Hogaak deck without Hogaak. Instead of choosing between Hedron Crab or Crypt Breaker, you just play both. There's still a lot of power there.
Modern
ubr Grixis Shadow ubr
uwg Bant Stoneblade uwg
gbr Jund gbr

Pioneer
urIzzet Phoenixur
rMono-Red Aggror
uwAzorius Controluw

Commander
bg Meren of Clan Nel Toth bg

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Post by ktkenshinx » 2 years ago

Coverage this weekend isn't even attempting to conceal how broken Hogaak is. Commentators are regularly making fun of the deck, casually referring to bans, discussing format/game health, etc. For online community members like us, this might not seem out of the ordinary; we discuss these topics all the time and see discussion about these topics on a daily basis. Stepping back, however, it's a huge deal. Normally, we see commentators actively concealing format issues and deflecting chat skepticism. Especially on the official Wizards/GP streams! SCG commentators regularly discuss whatever they want, but MTG/GP/CFB coverage attempts to push alternate narratives to hype up the event, format, and stream. We're not seeing this today. This is a) one of the clearest indicators I've ever seen of a broken deck that is 99% going to be banned on Monday, and b) a worrisome sign of Modern health even after Hogaak is gone. This kind of blatant skepticism and distaste for the biggest Modern event of 2019 is damaging to this format and anyone who tunes in, reads articles, reads comments, checks the aftermath, etc. It won't matter what happens after Hogaak because that skepticism and ban mania will remain for months to come. I suspect a difficult, uphill recovery ahead of us.
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Post by idSurge » 2 years ago

You ask the wrong question Wraith.

It's not if we believe an objective take on the list is best.

It's impossible to look at the ban list and objectively say, over time, that subjective opinion from Wizards has not been applied to any ban/unban.

It's not about raw data, hasn't been since AT LEAST Twin.

Ktk: that's sad to hear, but not surprising either. The tone of discourse around the format has not been good since at least the KCI period, and probably a bit before that.

People don't want to face it, or perhaps don't consume as much content as others but I am not kidding when I say this has been the least satisfied I've seen the Modern 'ecosystem' in my whole time around the game.

It's been a year. Spark and Horizons were supposed to save us.

They made it even more intolerable.

We need more than a ban on Monday. We need a whole refresh on the Modern vision, the ban list, and the format itself.

12 months, wasted.
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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
2 years ago
Coverage this weekend isn't even attempting to conceal how broken Hogaak is. Commentators are regularly making fun of the deck, casually referring to bans, discussing format/game health, etc. For online community members like us, this might not seem out of the ordinary; we discuss these topics all the time and see discussion about these topics on a daily basis. Stepping back, however, it's a huge deal. Normally, we see commentators actively concealing format issues and deflecting chat skepticism. Especially on the official Wizards/GP streams! SCG commentators regularly discuss whatever they want, but MTG/GP/CFB coverage attempts to push alternate narratives to hype up the event, format, and stream. We're not seeing this today. This is a) one of the clearest indicators I've ever seen of a broken deck that is 99% going to be banned on Monday, and b) a worrisome sign of Modern health even after Hogaak is gone. This kind of blatant skepticism and distaste for the biggest Modern event of 2019 is damaging to this format and anyone who tunes in, reads articles, reads comments, checks the aftermath, etc. It won't matter what happens after Hogaak because that skepticism and ban mania will remain for months to come. I suspect a difficult, uphill recovery ahead of us.
I mean, for reference, this is an ad I saw on facebook just yesterday. Make of this what you will.
TCGPlayerBR.png
TheAnnihilator wrote:
2 years ago
gkourou wrote:
2 years ago
and with teferi, time raveler in a jeskai shell is also quite dangerous.
Considering Twin has never been legal with T3feri, I don't see how anyone can know this -- not to mention that there's certainly not enough data to support this claim.
We definitely don't know what it means for little Teffy. What we DO know is that in the past, Jeskai variants were laughably the worst versions, by a considerable margin. And loading up a deck like this with a clunky, painful manabase, and clunky, sorcery speed planeswalkers is kind of the opposite of what it wanted to be doing most of the time. If you wanna just GOTCHA someone, there are better things to be doing. There may be a version that plays T3, and it may even be good. But we just don't know. All I know is I personally have no interest in any 3 color builds if it were released.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 2 years ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
2 years ago
Coverage this weekend isn't even attempting to conceal how broken Hogaak is. Commentators are regularly making fun of the deck, casually referring to bans, discussing format/game health, etc. For online community members like us, this might not seem out of the ordinary; we discuss these topics all the time and see discussion about these topics on a daily basis. Stepping back, however, it's a huge deal. Normally, we see commentators actively concealing format issues and deflecting chat skepticism. Especially on the official Wizards/GP streams! SCG commentators regularly discuss whatever they want, but MTG/GP/CFB coverage attempts to push alternate narratives to hype up the event, format, and stream. We're not seeing this today. This is a) one of the clearest indicators I've ever seen of a broken deck that is 99% going to be banned on Monday, and b) a worrisome sign of Modern health even after Hogaak is gone. This kind of blatant skepticism and distaste for the biggest Modern event of 2019 is damaging to this format and anyone who tunes in, reads articles, reads comments, checks the aftermath, etc. It won't matter what happens after Hogaak because that skepticism and ban mania will remain for months to come. I suspect a difficult, uphill recovery ahead of us.
I agree that commentators, content creators and most of the player base are very hostile to the hogaak meta and I have posted that kind of thing that I have seen recently at MCQ and LGS. It will not be fixed immediately after the hogaak ban. They may ban more cards or unban some cards Monday or soon due to these poor optics. That could even turn out to be a good thing depending on what they do.

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Post by tronix » 2 years ago

i mean the subject line for the email TCGPlayer sent out was literally "Have you had fun playing modern lately? Neither have we..."

for a sec i thought tcg was emailing me directly

havent seen any coverage, but id imagine most are treating the ban as a foregone conclusion. i remember the SCG coverage before the bridge ban, Patrick and Cedric made no attempts to hide how absurd it was.

but yeah, not the best place for the format. honestly im just sorta ambivalent, and have been since WAR suddenly overhauled control decks among other things. hard not to be jaded though, since early last year i was constantly looking for signs wizards was serious about turning over a new leaf and course correcting modern away from the ambiguous, hard to identify, but clearly dark destination it was headed towards. i dont know if any remember how fervent i was in hoping wotc would do something other than just banning kci in january, as its just them once again choosing the path of least resistance.

melodrama aside my prediction for monday is of course a hogaak ban with a relatively lengthy, yet neatly spun explanation along the lines of mistakes being a natural byproduct of pushing boundaries and the willingness to keep doing so even when it may not seem warranted (often attributed by them as the reason mtg has stuck around so long). while i thought the circumstances of this upcoming announcement and hogaak ban set the stage nicely for an unban, at best im giving it a coinflip for actually happening
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Post by idSurge » 2 years ago

since early last year i was constantly looking for signs wizards was serious about turning over a new leaf and course correcting modern away from the ambiguous, hard to identify, but clearly dark destination it was headed towards
You are not alone, I've seen this sentiment on twitter for at least a year, if not more.

There is deep dissatisfaction in the format.
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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

tronix wrote:
2 years ago
Havent seen any coverage, but id imagine most are treating the ban as a foregone conclusion. i remember the SCG coverage before the bridge ban, Patrick and Cedric made no attempts to hide how absurd it was.
This is a fun clip...
Edit: direct clip link is not working, this is a roundabout link.
http://epicstream.com/news/JakeVyper/Ma ... Vegas-2019

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Post by idSurge » 2 years ago

"Chantelle mulliganed this game and her opponent turn-oned Inquisitioned her on the play this game before she had the opportunity to play anything," Stark said. "She took a mulligan and then her opponent played a discard spell before her she had the oppotunity to cast anything, and this is turn-two of this game. Look at this board! This is not her rare nut-draw. This is a mulligan and her opponent played a discard spell on turn-one. This is gross, this is broken, this should be banned. How can I give good strategic analysis on this game?"
For those not interested in links. :p

Forsythe should have listened, and emergency banned it when he had the chance, instead they do nothing but further damage the Modern name and brand.

PS: London Mull is still a HORRIBLE rule for Modern.
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Post by Archanz » 2 years ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
2 years ago
Do you have a link or a list on these new PW decks?

Also, does anyone have a link or list for a hogaakless hogaak deck that I have heard exists? I looked around and didn't find it.
I Just went on mtg goldfish and looked at the lists, for examples in the last tournament there Is a wurbg list with 21 pw, but if you have time to look at the midrange or control lists youll find a very High Number of pw

www.mtggoldfish.com/tournaments/modern#paper

Seriously, there are from 8 to 12 pws everywhere xD

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Post by idSurge » 2 years ago

So the question is, does Hogaak break 20% of the Day 2?

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Post by tronix » 2 years ago

i hope its some absurd record breaking amount. we want as much egg on wotcs face as possible to guilt them into unbanning stuff
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Post by idSurge » 2 years ago

I'd be happy with 25%, if we can get 30, woo boy, what a send off.
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Post by robertleva » 2 years ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
2 years ago
Coverage this weekend isn't even attempting to conceal how broken Hogaak is. Commentators are regularly making fun of the deck, casually referring to bans, discussing format/game health, etc. For online community members like us, this might not seem out of the ordinary; we discuss these topics all the time and see discussion about these topics on a daily basis. Stepping back, however, it's a huge deal. Normally, we see commentators actively concealing format issues and deflecting chat skepticism. Especially on the official Wizards/GP streams! SCG commentators regularly discuss whatever they want, but MTG/GP/CFB coverage attempts to push alternate narratives to hype up the event, format, and stream. We're not seeing this today. This is a) one of the clearest indicators I've ever seen of a broken deck that is 99% going to be banned on Monday, and b) a worrisome sign of Modern health even after Hogaak is gone. This kind of blatant skepticism and distaste for the biggest Modern event of 2019 is damaging to this format and anyone who tunes in, reads articles, reads comments, checks the aftermath, etc. It won't matter what happens after Hogaak because that skepticism and ban mania will remain for months to come. I suspect a difficult, uphill recovery ahead of us.
MTG players have short memories when it comes to format fun factor. If WOTC bans Hogaak and unbans some perfectly fine cards like SFM, the silent masses will be appeased and spend the next few months playing with new decks and strats. Pros might harbor longer grudges but I could care less about that.
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Post by drmarkb » 2 years ago

My worry with Twin is Force of Negation, and the fact that one cc renoval that kills the combo with a 1/4 is limited to Path, Dismember and Push.l plus the rather poor black Force of Despair.
There is currently a range of UR decks, I am not sure there would be with Twin at large.

Perhaps if more one cc stuff existed to nerf the combo I would be fine, but going second means I have a narrow window to land a card to stop the combo, and with Force it becomes hard.

It is subjective of course regardling play patterns and even diversity. Given my preferences for Prison or combo Prison decks in Legacy and to play as prison-y as I can in Modern, I can hardly complain about play patterns.

I would like to see more free effects in the game, and a bit more uncounterable stuff - via the mechanic of cannot be countered, Split Second or Leylines etc. plus better counters, better removal etc. and that is easier to do when you have not got game ending combos running about t4 though.

To pick up on id surge's point, I think the ban list is primarily about format health, but certainly about much, much more than that. It is about nebulous confidence, not upsetting certain groups etc. Pack sales of course being relevant...

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 2 years ago

drmarkb wrote:
2 years ago
My worry with Twin is Force of Negation, and the fact that one cc renoval that kills the combo with a 1/4 is limited to Path, Dismember and Push.l plus the rather poor black Force of Despair.

Perhaps if more one cc stuff existed to nerf the combo I would be fine, but going second means I have a narrow window to land a card to stop the combo, and with Force it becomes hard.
Force can only be cast for free on the opponent's turn, though. If you wait until they actually play the Twin, Force does nothing to protect the creature. There's also Galvanic Blast, Slaughter Pact, and effects like Vapor Snag. Plus, 2 mana spells are good against Twin too. Decay, Trophy, Terminate, Meddling Mage, etc. There's also Discard to preempt Twin and countermagic to answer it. Plus, not every deck should have a clean answer to Twin anyways -- some decks plans are simply fragile to it, and that's no different than a control deck or BGx deck against Tron, an Infect or Druid deck against Burn, etc. Besides, most of the decks that don't have a G1 answer to Twin can side in stuff like Spellskite, Torpor Orb, Rending Volley, Fry, Nature's Claim, Qasali Pridemage, etc.
There is currently a range of UR decks, I am not sure there would be with Twin at large.
This is true, but all of the UR decks running around (other than Phoenix) are like tier 3. Nothing playing Snap and Bolt is even close to playable right now, so Twin might make UR a viable color combo at the cost of other UR strats that weren't very good anyways.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 2 years ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
2 years ago
I agree that commentators, content creators and most of the player base are very hostile to the hogaak meta and I have posted that kind of thing that I have seen recently at MCQ and LGS. It will not be fixed immediately after the hogaak ban. They may ban more cards or unban some cards Monday or soon due to these poor optics. That could even turn out to be a good thing depending on what they do.
Additional unbans would do a lot to build up Wizards' depleted stock of good will. Additional bans would be risky and unwarranted; it's impossible to know what a post-Hogaak Modern looks like until Hogaak is gone.
tronix wrote:
2 years ago
i mean the subject line for the email TCGPlayer sent out was literally "Have you had fun playing modern lately? Neither have we..."

for a sec i thought tcg was emailing me directly
I saw that too. This is yet another significant, high-profile jab at Modern that Wizards has sponsored through mismanagement. I believe Modern can recover from all of this, but Wizards is not helping that recovery right now, and between the TCG email, articles, Twitter, coverage, and other venues, the Modern picture is very negative for the casual player trying to assess format climate.
havent seen any coverage, but id imagine most are treating the ban as a foregone conclusion. i remember the SCG coverage before the bridge ban, Patrick and Cedric made no attempts to hide how absurd it was.
What's significant here is that this is the official, CFB/GP/MTG stream, not SCG. SCG has never been shy about rambling and speculating about bans in Modern. That's happened for years and I don't expect it will change. But the Wizards stream/event coverage team does the exact opposite. They typically do everything they can to remain neutral about players/decks and promote the format, even if there are apparent issues. The optics are terrible when this is happening on a major stream. And it's not just Hogaak! I heard ban speculation about Looting and even W6 on the stream yesterday! That's the kind of rampant, festering ban mania that I've hoped we could avoid for years but has clearly become a new normal after this awful summer.
melodrama aside my prediction for monday is of course a hogaak ban with a relatively lengthy, yet neatly spun explanation along the lines of mistakes being a natural byproduct of pushing boundaries and the willingness to keep doing so even when it may not seem warranted (often attributed by them as the reason mtg has stuck around so long). while i thought the circumstances of this upcoming announcement and hogaak ban set the stage nicely for an unban, at best im giving it a coinflip for actually happening
That sounds right to me. I also expect some discussion of why they don't do emergency bans, a justification of why they waited, and some rationalization around why it wasn't "that bad" or "as bad as it looked from the public perspective." Of course, I view all of this as unsurprising but damaging mismanagement that hurts Modern in the long run and will create rippling negative effects. An "apology unban" would go a long way towards helping that recovery.
idSurge wrote:
2 years ago
I'd be happy with 25%, if we can get 30, woo boy, what a send off.
25% seems about right, although I suspect people haven't iterated on/perfected their lists as much as they would if people believed Hogaak would survive Monday. This might lead to Hogaak doing "worse" this weekend.
robertleva wrote:
2 years ago
MTG players have short memories when it comes to format fun factor. If WOTC bans Hogaak and unbans some perfectly fine cards like SFM, the silent masses will be appeased and spend the next few months playing with new decks and strats. Pros might harbor longer grudges but I could care less about that.
I fully agree an unban would quiet a lot of dissent and go a long way towards restoring Wizards' credibility in the eyes of many players. I disagree with the short memories line to an extent. On the one hand, players are relatively forgiving when situations change and things visibly improve from an unhealthy metagame. Modern did quite well after Eldrazi Winter and Probe/GGT fall, despite 2016 suffering from a controversial Twin shakeup ban, a %$#% spring Eldrazi metagame, and then an overly dominant Dredge with too many fast Probe decks. 2017 and 2018 proved to be awesome periods of Modern growth and popularity. That should make us hopeful about post-Hogaak recovery. On the other hand, one of the things that helped Modern recover from that era was likely a truly awful Standard format that saw something like 9 bans in 12 months. We can't expect that to happen now, especially with Arena being so successful and Standard being mostly pretty strong these last months.

Another issue is that Modern may have some other issues beyond Hogaak, but we're not going to "prove" those issues for many months due to the lack of serious GP events. This would have been a great summer to confirm or disprove all the anti-Looting/Stirrings/Opal/Urza/W6/T3feri/Dredge/Tron/Neobrand/etc. mania we've seen for months, but Hogaak hideously warped all the GP where we would otherwise gather data. That means those fundamental issues may/may not exist but no one is going to know. There's only one solo Modern GP left in 2019 and it's in November. This leaves us in one of two bad positions. If the format does have simmering issues, they will go undiagnosed and untreated for much longer than they would have if Hogaak hadn't ruined the summer. This means Wizards probably won't act but dissatisfied players will notice and experience those issues. If the format does not have simmering issues, we won't have enough data/results to confirm that underlying health and the ban mania/hyperbole will persist with no GP to disprove it. All of this is bad for Modern and will lead to months of toxicity in a time when alternate format experiences are more enticing than in 2017. Modern did not need these struggles and Wizards had many opportunities to avoid them.
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Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

robertleva wrote:
2 years ago
MTG players have short memories when it comes to format fun factor. If WOTC bans Hogaak and unbans some perfectly fine cards like SFM, the silent masses will be appeased and spend the next few months playing with new decks and strats. Pros might harbor longer grudges but I could care less about that.
will totally be appeased by this. Who knows, a miracle might happen and they actually unban her. Will feel nostalgic playing with SFM again. Last time I used the kor was so many years ago playing Stoneblade in legacy. :)
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