[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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TheAnswer
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Post by TheAnswer » 2 years ago

Is the only emergency ban Felidar Guardian? Wizards just doesn't care about Modern as much as they care about Standard, and rightly so. As a company Standard pulls in more direct profit for them. I wouldn't try to find maliciousness in not breaking from a set pattern they had (I think?) followed up until that point.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 2 years ago

TheAnswer wrote:
2 years ago
Without Hogaak on the scene, I'm more worried about Tron than Phoenix in regards to the London Mulligan. So much of Phoenix is hot air; liberal mulligans don't really do much for the deck.
I'm not particularly worried about anything until we get some post-WAR/MH results without Hogaak warping the format. Lots of decks changed and evolved as a result, and we have no idea what the format "really" looks like. I expect we'll return to an equilibrium of broken one-drops defining different pillars of Modern: Stirrings, Looting, Vial/Hierarch, Opt/SV, and Opal (0-drop but you get the idea). Plus random Burn, BGx, E-Tron, etc. appearances. I'm comfortable with some split between all of that, and if early 2019 Modern was any indication, Wizards is too.
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Post by TheAnswer » 2 years ago

Yeah I feel like we're in for a pretty good stretch of Modern, I was just responding to claims that Phoenix would benefit from the London Mulligan with the counterexample that Tron benefits immensely more, and if anyone wants to be worried by a deck profiting it should be Tron. We'll see if Phoenix/maybe the resurgence of Dredge keep Tron down.

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Post by Bearscape » 2 years ago

First thing I want to see is the Modern Horizons cards other than Hogaak to get some spotlight. With Hogaak at least weakened, I expect Infect and Druid Combo to grow in meta share.

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Post by TheAnswer » 2 years ago

I could be wrong about this, but I feel the rise of Druid Vizier combo was in response to the huge amount of hate that Hogaak was pulling; basically, if everyone is showing up expecting to pack a lot of grave hate, a fast creature based combo deck gets better. I don't know if it will continue to be positioned well now.

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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

"First thing I want to see is the Modern Horizons cards other than Hogaak to get some spotlight."

I mentioned this in the finance thread (pretty much dead at the moment), but it definitely concerns me about prices. MH1 is the only place to get most of these cards, and any of the rares and mythics that see any play have already ballooned. I shudder to think how much worse it will be if more cards take strong footholds.

Also, forum full editor seems to be borked.

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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

I'm glad to see Bridge go. They lay out a very good explanation as well, I was glad to see numbers come with that explanation. I just worry that they don't actually give us access to those numbers; it makes it hard (impossible?) for us to actually keep them accountable. Overall, it's a step in the right direction for me.

As far as the meta goes now, I think Phoenix and Dredge are mostly fine. I just woefully disagree with those who say they are "fun interactive decks".

Next we can ban Teferi, Time Raveler|War of the Spark! :shhh: :laugh:

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Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

thank goodness the Bridge went to jail. Things can calm down a little now.
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Post by robertleva » 2 years ago

I would still run a ton of main deck GY hate. I don't think GY strats have been dealt with properly. I expect more bans for GY strats in the future as well.
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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

Arkmer wrote:
2 years ago
Next we can ban Teferi, Time Raveler|War of the Spark! :shhh: :laugh:
I would be totally on board with this! :grin: :grin: Unfortunately it doesn't break any fundamental rules, and being obnoxious and miserable in of itself isn't banworthy.

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Post by TheAnswer » 2 years ago

Yeah, Chalice and Ensnaring Bridge have lasted this long, I don't think an attackable soft-prison piece is going to break anything.

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Post by idSurge » 2 years ago

Those however, are not asymmetrical. :)

Regardless, I am hopeful that the meta will gravitate towards UW, and the new versions of Jund that look really cool, with the Looting decks as part of the meta, not defining it.
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Post by Necrofish » 2 years ago

I'm fully expecting my local meta to shift towards UW Control.
Which means I'll pack some hate against 3feri.
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Post by Bearscape » 2 years ago

I'm really rooting for Jund. The format's old king needs to return

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Post by Simto » 2 years ago

Jund has been doing really well on the recent top lists on Goldfish. Nice seeing a midrange deck pop up at the top.
Like I said earlier, I think the Mythic Championship is going to be interesting to watch. At least the constructed section.
I just wish they wouldn't cut to "commercial breaks" every 5 minutes and constantly have the inner circle of hosts talk amongst themselves for ages instead of showing games. It's an absolute %$#% marathon to watch and I honestly think it's an insult to the people watching. But anyway... that's for another thread.... sorry for the rant.

Don't ban the new Teferi. I switched to modern because I wanted to play with and against strong cards. I don't want strong cards to be banned.
People would find a new card they'd want banned if he was banned anyway until all we have left is a llanowar elf and a shock.

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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

Necrofish wrote:
2 years ago
Which means I'll pack some hate against 3feri.
Such as...? Dreadbore? Countering before it resolves?

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Post by TheAnswer » 2 years ago

Creatures are still good ways to get rid of Planeswalkers. 3feri's bounce costs 3 loyalty, which means he falls to a stiff breeze. Burn spells also still work.

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Post by pierreb » 2 years ago

I'm also annoyed by the new PW with static abilities. Sure, being PW means you can attack them, unlike enchantments, but they priced them very low and their non-static abilities are quite relevant in each case. I would not mind them if they would not have been designed to each break a fundamental rule of magic. Teferi prevents instant-speed interaction, while opting to either bounce or cheat sorceries. Narset prevents cantrips while digging for answers. Ashiok prevents fetching lands while getting rid of graveyards.

They're weak enough to make contemplating banning them ridiculous, but they're all very annoying additions. And then they made Wren and six, which allows recurring ghost quarters every turn at two mana.

I bet we end-up getting a 1-mana modal PW detruction spell eventually.

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Post by Necrofish » 2 years ago

Price of Betrayal should be able to kill off most PWs. The Elderspell in case you wanna have your own unfair PWs.

I don't think those cards are really that great for modern and I'd much prefer instant speed. I'm keeping an eye on them though.

Edit: Oh yeah, 3feri I'll try to discard or counter. Don't really wanna rely on Price of Betrayal for that.
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Post by TheAnswer » 2 years ago

The only Planeswalker that I'll concede removes a fundamental part of Magic is 3feri. Instants are a card type, but he doesn't say you can't cast them, you just need to play them as Sorceries. Fetchlands are not fundamental to the game. They are a large part of this format, but there are lots of archetypes that do not use them. Cantrips are also not fundamental to the game. They are a part of it, but if most of your deck is just cantrips, you're most likely already trying to do something unfair, and then Narset becomes a response to a strategy, not a way to "break the game."

In addition, both Narset and Ashiok only ever lose loyalty and do not inherently protect themselves, making them even easier to deal with.

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Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

cfusionpm wrote:
2 years ago
Necrofish wrote:
2 years ago
Which means I'll pack some hate against 3feri.
Such as...? Dreadbore? Countering before it resolves?
dreadbore is one way. I also sometimes snipe him out of the hand with a thoughtseize or inqui.
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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

TheAnswer wrote:
2 years ago
Creatures are still good ways to get rid of Planeswalkers. 3feri's bounce costs 3 loyalty, which means he falls to a stiff breeze. Burn spells also still work.
In theory, sure. In practice, bouncing your only creature means your creature should have haste or an ETB, or T3feri gets 2+ turns uncontested. Bolt does not kill it if it upticks, and even if it downticks, you can't bolt it until its your own turn,since it has to resolve to bolt.

When playing the card myself (in UW) I never get the feeling of how obnoxious it is. Playing against it though (usually in the kinds of decks I want to play, with instants and flash creatures) is one of the most painful and infuriating experiences I could encounter. Especially since after their untap, T3feri is often very well protected.

I own 3 copies and play him in UW. I would be extremely happy to never see its in Modern again. I play Magic for a reason, and it's because we are not Hearthstone. Removing that aspect (at 3 mana, difficult to interact with, and asymmetrically at that) is simply awful design.

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Post by TheAnswer » 2 years ago

I think you're being a little biased, admitting you prefer to play at Instant speed. Of course the Instant-hoser is going to seem like it came from your personal hell. 3feri is not supposed to be easy to deal with by a single creature. Additionally, 3feri does not win the game on his own. All he realistically does outside of the static ability is tempo or allows you to wrath at Instant speed. If your opponent wants to win, they still need to deploy actual threats, which 3feri helps to protect, but not in a way that makes the game unwinnable as, say, Hogaak did, or even Neobrand with the support of the London Mulligan.

I understand that, to a certain playstyle, 3feri can seem like a personal attack. But there are ways to deal with him. Those hyper-reactive strategies might just need to find them. Look at Magmatic Sinkhole, provides a pretty neat and usually cheap answer to threats, be they Planeswalker or creature. Try adding some recursive or value based smaller creatures to either pressure early walkers or get value out of the bounces. If you're expecting to be forced to play at Sorcery speed anyway, Dreadbore is a very efficient answer to a multitude of threats. The answers exist, people just need to test and find the best configurations to adapt to what else is being played.

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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

It just seems silly to shut off literally the main defining feature of our game. It's such awful design that does nothing but create feelbad moments. I can't fathom who in R&D thought T3feri would be a good thing for any format. For reference, he's making Standard fairly awful as well.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

The effect if T3feri is definitely not new as it is the same thing creature Teferi offered (in terms of shutting off Instants). The permission it grants is now for Sorceries instead of Creatures which makes sense. However, the reason creature Teferi has mainly gotten a pass until now has been because he is 5 mana. Which makes him unplayable in pretty much all formats except EDH (not sure if he was played in Standard).

I do think T3feri's abilities are fine and they fit well with the character. However, I also believe it is too cheap at 3 mana. As cfusionpm states, it is kind of ridiculous to shut off Instants in Magic considering that "action - reaction" is one of the biggest draws in Magic. And to shut it off only for the opponent makes it even worse.

Overall, I think the overall *design* is good but this is something where the cheap cost makes the effect much too powerful. At 5 mana, it might be playable (not sure on that) but would take some work to get to. At 3 mana, it is just an obnoxious card.

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